Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

I just emailed the seller of this system to see if it has been purchased yet. 
They say it's still available, and they're thinking of putting it on eBay. 

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Nov 10, 2015, at 07:55, Paul Berger  wrote:
> 
> For the burn in on the CRT, only half of the CRT is used so you can rotate it 
> 180 degrees if that has not already been done.  That also works for 3741 key 
> to diskette machine, same display unit.

I only noticed burn-in on the lower half of the CRT, so this unit probably has 
another lifetime left in its display.

> On the disk drive there is a head lock back top left should be locked when 
> moving and I believe there is also a spindle lock.

The head lock lever was "OFF" as I found the unit, so I rotated it to the "ON" 
position. If there's a spindle lock, it wasn't obvious enough for me to notice 
it.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Paul Berger]

On 2015-11-09 10:53 PM, Connor Krukosky wrote:
Wow that looks to be in fantastic condition considering its around 40 
years old now!

I really wish the best of luck to whomever gets it.
I must say I'm very jealous ;)

-Connor K

On 11/9/2015 9:20 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:

At long last, here are pictures and details!

http://www.nf6x.net/2015/11/ibm-system32-at-the-local-electronics-recycler/ 






That big disk is nearly bullet proof, we had one in a store controller 
where they had a fire in the store and the fire got close enough to it 
to scorch the paint on the covers, but the drive still worked and all 
the data was recovered off of it.  They do however sometimes squeak a 
little when they seek.


For the burn in on the CRT, only half of the CRT is used so you can 
rotate it 180 degrees if that has not already been done.  That also 
works for 3741 key to diskette machine, same display unit.


The orange plastic box inside the cardboard box contains a head 
alignment tool for the 33FD diskette unit.  One thing that may go wrong 
with the diskette drives is the lower limit stop on the head carriage 
may break off and allow it to go below track 0.  These drives do not 
have a track 0 sensor so when they are initialized the drive does about 
80 out steps to make sure it is at zero so it hammers on that down stop. 
and it is plastic so it won't get better with age.


On the disk drive there is a head lock back top left should be locked 
when moving and I believe there is also a spindle lock.


Those little cards in the envelopes may have been used for indicator 
cards or probing.  I seem to remember that the service guide sat in the 
space just above the logic gate, but I don't see it in the pictures.


Paul.

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

The seller emailed me some pictures. It does look pretty good, aside from some 
peeling paint on the front of the floppy drive compartment (I think) sheet 
metal panel, and the expected yellowing of the keyboard surround plastic.. This 
model has the keyswitch option, which is the only recognizable variation I 
identified based on a quick skimming of the manuals the other day. I can't tell 
whether it has the band printer or dot matrix option, but that should be easy 
to determine once I open the top cover.

I should be seeing it in person in a couple of hours, and I'll try to dig up 
more details. I've emailed Mike about whether he wishes to claim it, but I 
haven't heard back yet. But whether I help a buyer out, buy it myself (must 
resist temptation!) or just take pictures of Mike's new computer to share, 
it'll be fun. I'll share the seller's pictures later this evening, too, if he 
doesn't mind.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mike Ross]

Sorry for being out of touch: in transit from NZ to NY and crazy busy. No
news my end but plan to speak to seller and visit system towards end of
week. I know at least a couple of you have emailed me privately; sorry for
not responding but will update ASAP. I'd *like* to claim it for the
Corestore but there are shipping costs and logistics issues.

I wonder if IBM disks of this era care about line frequency? Do they have
50hz vs 60hz spindles like RK05s

Mike
On Nov 9, 2015 9:54 PM, "Connor Krukosky"  wrote:

> Wow that looks to be in fantastic condition considering its around 40
> years old now!
> I really wish the best of luck to whomever gets it.
> I must say I'm very jealous ;)
>
> -Connor K
>
> On 11/9/2015 9:20 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>
>> At long last, here are pictures and details!
>>
>>
>> http://www.nf6x.net/2015/11/ibm-system32-at-the-local-electronics-recycler/
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Guy Sotomayor]

On 11/9/15 7:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

Do you have any idea why it was thought a good idea to use
edge-triggered interrupts?

I wasn’t really involved in the HW side of things but I think it was because it 
was
“easier”.  I think at least one device just generated a pulse for an interrupt 
rather
than having some sort of latch.

I can easily believe that to be true of the System/23. To the best of
my knowledge, no add-on boards IBM marketed for the PC worked that
way.  For the PC, edge-triggered interrupts were a pain in the ass,
especially if you wanted to have multiple devices (e.g., COM ports)
sharing an interrupt. Oh well.


Oh, trust me I know about the edge triggered interrupt problem.  I was 
trying to support
a "simple" multi-com board for Xenix/286 on the PC-AT and just couldn't 
make it work

properly with edge triggered interrupts.

One of the things that the MCA in the PS/2's did was to do away with 
edge triggered
interrupts...they were all level.  A number of us demanded that of the 
new bus.  Of course
we didn't get the most important thing right (configurability) but we 
were constrained by
being able to take existing designs and just "tweak" them in order to 
make them MCA

boards.


It took a long time, but the PC legacy interrupts are finally all but
eliminated from modern PCs, replaced by the much saner APIC. While the
PCI bus still used discrete interrupt lines, PCIe now uses bus
transactions, which further eliminates legacy restrictions. Of course,
for compatibility, the north bridge (sometimes integrated into the CPU
chip) still has to provide 8259A interrupt controller functionality
and by default map at least some of the modern PCIe interrupt hardware
to it, to support legacy software, but most recent PC OSes use the
APIC natively even on uniprocessor systems.


The 8259 (along with the damned 8254) are still alive and well in 
current Intel PCHs.  The

current (Skylake) generation of CPUs and PCHs still have them.  :-(

Actually as of Windows 8.x the 8254 is *still* used.  :-(

TTFN - Guy

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Nov 9, 2015, at 19:12, Mike Ross  wrote:
> 
> Sorry for being out of touch: in transit from NZ to NY and crazy busy. No
> news my end but plan to speak to seller and visit system towards end of
> week. I know at least a couple of you have emailed me privately; sorry for
> not responding but will update ASAP. I'd *like* to claim it for the
> Corestore but there are shipping costs and logistics issues.

Shipping something like that to NZ must cost a fortune! I was surprised how 
much it cost me to ship a Timex-Sinclair TS-2068 back to its owner in Canada 
today, and it's just a bit smaller. ;)

Anyway, after looking at it, I'd say that it's worthy of your attention if you 
would like to add another one to your fantastic collection. It looks to me like 
it'll clean up nicely. Let me know if you would like to meet for a cup of 
coffee while you're in the area. I might have to be in the office in Irvine, 
but there's a good chance that I'll be available this week.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Connor Krukosky]

Wow that looks to be in fantastic condition considering its around 40 
years old now!

I really wish the best of luck to whomever gets it.
I must say I'm very jealous ;)

-Connor K

On 11/9/2015 9:20 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:

At long last, here are pictures and details!

http://www.nf6x.net/2015/11/ibm-system32-at-the-local-electronics-recycler/

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Guy Sotomayor]

> On Nov 9, 2015, at 12:26 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:
>> * The expansion bus in the IBM PC was the same bus as the System/23.The
>> connector was rotated 180* so that some of the less expensive
>>   cards from the PC couldn't be used in the System/23.  The other
>>   reason for this was since the IBM PC was done on a "shoe string"
>>   budget, they could take the System/23 cards and only had to do some
>>   minimal re-layout of the board.
> 
> Did the System/23 also use edge-triggered interrupts, rather than level?

Yes.

> 
> Do you have any idea why it was thought a good idea to use
> edge-triggered interrupts?

I wasn’t really involved in the HW side of things but I think it was because it 
was
“easier”.  I think at least one device just generated a pulse for an interrupt 
rather
than having some sort of latch.

TTFN - Guy

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Eric Smith]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:
>  * The expansion bus in the IBM PC was the same bus as the System/23.The
> connector was rotated 180* so that some of the less expensive
>cards from the PC couldn't be used in the System/23.  The other
>reason for this was since the IBM PC was done on a "shoe string"
>budget, they could take the System/23 cards and only had to do some
>minimal re-layout of the board.

Did the System/23 also use edge-triggered interrupts, rather than level?

Do you have any idea why it was thought a good idea to use
edge-triggered interrupts?

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Nov 9, 2015, at 11:48, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
> On 11/9/15 11:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>> I got a reply from the seller of this system, and I'll see if I can go take 
>> a look at it today or tomorrow.
> 
> And so far, it's still priceless.

Maybe I can do something about that. I'll see if I can take pictures to share 
with y'all, and ask for a ballpark asking price. Somebody else needs to rescue 
this one (if it's worth rescuing, and at a reasonable price), but I can 
probably help out since it's so close to me.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Eric Smith]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:
> The 8259 (along with the damned 8254) are still alive and well in current
> Intel PCHs.

As I said, it's still there for compatibility. However AFAIK most OSes
use the APIC instead, at least by default. Linux has a kernel command
line option that can be used to ignore the APIC and use the 8259As.

If you want true SMP for multiple cores, you have to use the APIC, as
the 8259A doesn't support that.

> Actually as of Windows 8.x the 8254 is *still* used.  :-(

Windows 8 and later use the LAPIC timer (in the APIC) as well.

Linux if configured for a tickless kernel uses the LAPIC and does not
use the 8254.

Windows XP recognized but did not use the HPET timer, which present in
most recent CPUs or bridges, and was intended as an improved
replacement for the 8254.

Linux normally uses the TSC as its timebase, but Wikipedia says that
Linux can use the HPET as a fallback.

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

At long last, here are pictures and details!

http://www.nf6x.net/2015/11/ibm-system32-at-the-local-electronics-recycler/


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Eric Smith]

>> Do you have any idea why it was thought a good idea to use
>> edge-triggered interrupts?
>
> I wasn’t really involved in the HW side of things but I think it was because 
> it was
> “easier”.  I think at least one device just generated a pulse for an 
> interrupt rather
> than having some sort of latch.

I can easily believe that to be true of the System/23. To the best of
my knowledge, no add-on boards IBM marketed for the PC worked that
way.  For the PC, edge-triggered interrupts were a pain in the ass,
especially if you wanted to have multiple devices (e.g., COM ports)
sharing an interrupt. Oh well.

It took a long time, but the PC legacy interrupts are finally all but
eliminated from modern PCs, replaced by the much saner APIC. While the
PCI bus still used discrete interrupt lines, PCIe now uses bus
transactions, which further eliminates legacy restrictions. Of course,
for compatibility, the north bridge (sometimes integrated into the CPU
chip) still has to provide 8259A interrupt controller functionality
and by default map at least some of the modern PCIe interrupt hardware
to it, to support legacy software, but most recent PC OSes use the
APIC natively even on uniprocessor systems.

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

I've seen it, and it is for real. Looks complete except for missing paper rack 
on the back. Has keyswitch and band printer options.

More details and a blog post with pictures to follow once I'm back home in 
front of a real computer. For now, I've posted a few pictures on my Twitter 
feed (@nf6x). 

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Jay Jaeger]

On 11/6/2015 8:01 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 6, 2015, at 17:10, Jay Jaeger  wrote:
>>
>> Or tipped on end such that it would fit, similar to moving a sofa.
> 
> Please don't help... I bought a small CNC mill today, and my wallet is empty. 
> :-)
> 

I get it - just like my basement is full  :)

Re: IBM System/32 available

[John Ball]

>I think I found Mike's Youtube videos of one of his other System/23. It
even has
>blinkenlights! Dang it, now I'm trying to figure out where I'd
hypothetically stick a
>System/23 in my little house. Probably in the breakfast nook, assuming it
would even
>fit through the front door. I doubt it could make the turns into my
computer room. If I
>call it a "desk" and then put more computers on top of it, then does it
really occupy
>any space? :)

I remember trying to figure out logistics on that System/32 that was on ebay
out east for like $50 on ebay a few years ago. Don't remember if it sold or
not butabsolutely nothing I could come up with made transporting it out west
affordable.

-John

Re: IBM System/32 available

[William Donzelli]

> But I don't think a System/32 would fit unless it can be broken down into 
> pieces no wider than a 19" rack.

I do not think you can break them down that far, however, IBM has
always been pretty careful to design cabinets that somehow can fit
through a standard office door. Sometimes it is a very tight squeeze.

--
Will

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Jay Jaeger]

On 11/5/2015 10:55 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 5, 2015, at 20:00 , jwsmobile  wrote:
>>
>> He is tonight going thru LAX  Mike is in New Zealand.
> 
> He lives in NZ, or is just traveling there? I can't even guess how much it 
> would cost to ship a System/23 from California to NZ!
> 
> I think I found Mike's Youtube videos of one of his other System/23. It even 
> has blinkenlights! Dang it, now I'm trying to figure out where I'd 
> hypothetically stick a System/23 in my little house. Probably in the 
> breakfast nook, assuming it would even fit through the front door. I doubt it 
> could make the turns into my computer room. If I call it a "desk" and then 
> put more computers on top of it, then does it really occupy any space? :)
> 
> I managed to shove a VAX-11/730 through the front door:
> 
> http://www.nf6x.net/2014/05/nothing-sucks-power-like-a-vax/
> 
> But I don't think a System/32 would fit unless it can be broken down into 
> pieces no wider than a 19" rack.
> 

Or tipped on end such that it would fit, similar to moving a sofa.

JRJ

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mike Ross]

That's the guy I've been talking to. Pissed he's stealing pics from my
site. Can someone post the URL or thread where he's using them?

Thanks
On Nov 5, 2015 3:06 PM, "Al Kossow"  wrote:

> On 11/5/15 2:47 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>
>> A new user on the Vintage Computer Forums is posting about what appears
>> to be this machine in random, unrelated threads. In one of them, he shared
>> a System/32 picture which came from the Corestore site. He doesn't have
>> enough posts yet to enable the private message feature, so I don't know how
>> to contact him. His profile says he's in Riverside, CA, which happens to be
>> where I live. I don't have room or spare cash for this computer at this
>> time, but I'd be happy to go look at it for anybody who's interested in it
>> (assuming I find a way to contact the seller).
>>
>> The posting in random threads with somebody else's picture looks a bit
>> hinky, but maybe it's just somebody who isn't familiar with Internet forum
>> etiquette. If this seller and machine are for real, and it's really located
>> in Riverside, then I can look at the machine and report what I see.
>>
>>
> http://www.angelectronics.org/
>
> Mike should be able to confirm it
>
>

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Al Kossow]

On 11/5/15 3:19 PM, Mike Ross wrote:

That's the guy I've been talking to. Pissed he's stealing pics from my
site. Can someone post the URL or thread where he's using them?



http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36875-Molecular-Computers-board/page3

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?48531-DG-Nova/page2

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Michael Brutman]

The posts look like spam to me.  If you'd like they can be deleted and I'll
warn the user about using pictures without permission.
On 11/5/15 3:19 PM, Mike Ross wrote:

> That's the guy I've been talking to. Pissed he's stealing pics from my
> site. Can someone post the URL or thread where he's using them?
>
>
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36875-Molecular-Computers-board/page3

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?48531-DG-Nova/page2

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Nov 5, 2015, at 20:00 , jwsmobile  wrote:
> 
> He is tonight going thru LAX  Mike is in New Zealand.

He lives in NZ, or is just traveling there? I can't even guess how much it 
would cost to ship a System/23 from California to NZ!

I think I found Mike's Youtube videos of one of his other System/23. It even 
has blinkenlights! Dang it, now I'm trying to figure out where I'd 
hypothetically stick a System/23 in my little house. Probably in the breakfast 
nook, assuming it would even fit through the front door. I doubt it could make 
the turns into my computer room. If I call it a "desk" and then put more 
computers on top of it, then does it really occupy any space? :)

I managed to shove a VAX-11/730 through the front door:

http://www.nf6x.net/2014/05/nothing-sucks-power-like-a-vax/

But I don't think a System/32 would fit unless it can be broken down into 
pieces no wider than a 19" rack.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

Incidentally, I have an IBM System/23 for which I have not yet procured any 
software. In particular, I could use whatever utility software that's necessary 
to format data disks. I haven't found any online sources of disk images for 
this system yet.


http://www.nf6x.net/2014/08/ibm-system23-datamaster/
http://www.nf6x.net/2014/09/ibm-5322-system23-datamaster-internals/


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: IBM System/32 available

[jwsmobile]

He is tonight going thru LAX  Mike is in New Zealand.

I'm in Orange, Ca and can help out with things in this area too.

Thanks
Jim

On 11/5/2015 4:52 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:



On Nov 5, 2015, at 15:19, Mike Ross  wrote:

That's the guy I've been talking to.

Are you near Riverside? If not, maybe I can help you out with this machine 
somehow. It is local to me, and I happen to have a couple weeks of free time 
between jobs.

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Nov 5, 2015, at 15:19, Mike Ross  wrote:
> 
> That's the guy I've been talking to.

Are you near Riverside? If not, maybe I can help you out with this machine 
somehow. It is local to me, and I happen to have a couple weeks of free time 
between jobs.

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Guy Sotomayor]

On 11/5/15 6:39 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:

Incidentally, I have an IBM System/23 for which I have not yet procured any 
software. In particular, I could use whatever utility software that's necessary 
to format data disks. I haven't found any online sources of disk images for 
this system yet.


http://www.nf6x.net/2014/08/ibm-system23-datamaster/
http://www.nf6x.net/2014/09/ibm-5322-system23-datamaster-internals/


Cool!  I haven't seen those internals for a long time.  System/23 was 
the first product I worked on at IBM (wrote about 20% of the total ROM 
code for it).


If anyone knows where one is for a "reasonable" amount, I'd be 
interested mainly for nostalgia reasons.  ;-)


Some interesting facts:

 * The IBM 5120 (follow on to the 5110) used the same "skins" as the
   System/23.  That was because (for a number of reasons) System/23 was
   late and IBM wanted something in the market and the 5110 was getting
   a bit long in the tooth.  So when IBM decided to repackage the 5110
   they used the already existing skins for the System/23.
 * The expansion bus in the IBM PC was the same bus as the System/23. 
   The connector was rotated 180* so that some of the less expensive

   cards from the PC couldn't be used in the System/23.  The other
   reason for this was since the IBM PC was done on a "shoe string"
   budget, they could take the System/23 cards and only had to do some
   minimal re-layout of the board.

TTFN - Guy

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Kevin Monceaux]

On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 12:53:51PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote:
 
> I've been offered an IBM System/32. Location is close to LA. Condition
> appears pretty decent.
> 
> If I can't take the offer up, would anyone else be interested?

I'd love one, and I'm not too terribly far from LA, but it's probably the
wrong LA.  I'm Cajun.  To me LA = Louisiana.  And while I'd love one I don't
have the room for one or hardware skills to get one going.



-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Kyle Owen]

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 3:07 PM, Kevin Monceaux  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 04, 2015 at 12:53:51PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote:
>
> > I've been offered an IBM System/32. Location is close to LA. Condition
> > appears pretty decent.
> >
> > If I can't take the offer up, would anyone else be interested?
>
> I'd love one, and I'm not too terribly far from LA, but it's probably the
> wrong LA.  I'm Cajun.  To me LA = Louisiana.
>

Here I was thinking Lower Alabama...

Kyle

Re: IBM System/32 available

[Connor Krukosky]

On 11/3/2015 6:53 PM, Mike Ross wrote:

Folks,

I've been offered an IBM System/32. Location is close to LA. Condition
appears pretty decent.

If I can't take the offer up, would anyone else be interested?

Thanks

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'


Oh how I wish...
I'll trade you an IBM z890, you just have to remove it from a basement :P

-Connor K

Re: IBM System/32 available

[william degnan]

Sounds good.  I'll take it.  You can just drop it off at my house in South
Eastern PA, thanks.  Contact me off list.  Oh, and I am only available on
March 11 at 4PM-445.  Hopefully you can hold onto it for me.  I'll trade
you a C64, powers up.
Bill

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Mike Ross  wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I've been offered an IBM System/32. Location is close to LA. Condition
> appears pretty decent.
>
> If I can't take the offer up, would anyone else be interested?
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>



-- 
Bill