Re: Model M case screws

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

> On Sun, 2 Jul 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> About the best advice I've heard in this respect was "if you're looking
>> to assemble a good assortment of hand tools, make an offer for the
>> contents of the toolchest  to the widow of a recently deceased mechanic."

service cases and tool boxes show up fairly often on eBay

I bought a not very attractive one that I recognized as coming from a DEC
field service guy, which has all sorts of very handy little things for working 
on
disk drives that filled a very big hole in my tool chest.

Re: Model M case screws

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 2 Jul 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

About the best advice I've heard in this respect was "if you're looking
to assemble a good assortment of hand tools, make an offer for the
contents of the toolchest  to the widow of a recently deceased mechanic."


Thanks
I'm updating my will  (ER confirms that upcoming next attempt at prostate 
surgery will not be laparoscopic)

Re: Model M case screws

[Chris Pye via cctalk]

> 
> It was on a test-bench setup.   Part of my job back then was calibrating
> the stroke of cylinders to the 3-15 psi control signal.  Plant air
> (power supply for the cylinder) was around 50 psi, IIRC.

Lucky it was just the pliers. Pneumatics can be rather dangerous at that 
pressure.

> 
> Just one of those things, where you forget where you left things.  Of
> course, nowadays, more than a half-century later, I forget where I leave
> my keys, glasses, wife, etc.   So it's not something that's remedied
> with age…

I’m sure your wife loves that..

When I was an electrician working in the HVAC industry, we had fortnightly 
catchups to swap tools that we had found (or left) in ceiling cavities. I still 
have stuff with other peoples names engraved on them.

> 
> Indeed, lately I seem to be suffering increasingly with the "where did I
> put that?" problem, even if the "when" was only a few minutes earlier.

I’m not even fifty, and I have that problem.

Re: Model M case screws

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

Good advice on buying the whole toolchest.

Wiha does make excellent drivers and insert bits. Their security bits are
top-notch as well -- I ended up buying their general security
"bits-selector" set after wasting $5 on one of those Harbor Freight
assortments.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 07/02/2017 07:36 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:
>
> > I'm a little late to this thread but I didn't see anyone mention the Wiha
> > brand which also have a slim Nut Driver set with a 7/32" bit in the kit.
> > When I was refurbing a couple model M here, I invested in this Wiha set,
>
> I've got a few smaller Wiha drivers and they are pretty good.
>
> About the best advice I've heard in this respect was "if you're looking
> to assemble a good assortment of hand tools, make an offer for the
> contents of the toolchest  to the widow of a recently deceased mechanic."
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/02/2017 07:36 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:

> I'm a little late to this thread but I didn't see anyone mention the Wiha
> brand which also have a slim Nut Driver set with a 7/32" bit in the kit.
> When I was refurbing a couple model M here, I invested in this Wiha set,

I've got a few smaller Wiha drivers and they are pretty good.

About the best advice I've heard in this respect was "if you're looking
to assemble a good assortment of hand tools, make an offer for the
contents of the toolchest  to the widow of a recently deceased mechanic."

--Chuck

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/02/2017 09:45 AM, Chris Pye wrote:

> Chuck, dare may I ask what you were doing with electricians pliers that close 
> to a pneumatic cylinder?

It was on a test-bench setup.   Part of my job back then was calibrating
the stroke of cylinders to the 3-15 psi control signal.  Plant air
(power supply for the cylinder) was around 50 psi, IIRC.

Just one of those things, where you forget where you left things.  Of
course, nowadays, more than a half-century later, I forget where I leave
my keys, glasses, wife, etc.   So it's not something that's remedied
with age...

Indeed, lately I seem to be suffering increasingly with the "where did I
put that?" problem, even if the "when" was only a few minutes earlier.

--Chuck

Re: Model M case screws

[Chris Pye via cctalk]

> On 2 Jul 2017, at 4:03 pm, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I once got a pair of electrician's pliers caught between the yoke and
> body of a 6" pneumatic cylinder.  Snapped the handles right off, it did.
>  The local Sears store replaced the pliers without
> questioning--although they did marvel at the damage.
> 
> --Chuck

Chuck, dare may I ask what you were doing with electricians pliers that close 
to a pneumatic cylinder?

Chris..

Re: Model M case screws

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Jul 1, 2017, at 11:12 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> The quality of tools has declined.  It used to be that Sears Roebuck
>> "Craftsman" hand tools were among the best and were sold with an
>> unconditional warranty.  Not so any more.
> 
> The best spanners I have come across are made by Stahlwille. But be
> sitting down when they quote the price. The few I have I expect to
> last for the rest of my life though.
> 

Snap-on brand tools are the best that I’ve come across though they are
shockingly expensive.

I did have first hand experience in the difference between my “good”
Sears Craftsman (30 years ago) tools and Snap-on and it showed me
how much better the Snap-on tools were.

TTFN - Guy

Re: Model M case screws

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 07/02/2017 01:03 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 07/01/2017 10:27 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:


I was told years ago that in general the thinner-wall sockets are better
quality -- they have to be made from stronger steel alloy to work at
all. Obviously there are exceptions


It wouldn't surprise me if some of the cheaper stuff was made from pot
metal.  I encountered a small Chinese adjustable wrench that was, in
fact, made just that way with a nice chromium plating.  I think it was
intended to be more decorative than functional.


Yes, I expect that's the case. This socket I got for the M feels heavy 
enough to be real metal, but I still doubt it can be that high quality for 
$3! Still, it did the job and the keyboard's all nice and clean again 
(although when I opened it up I found that several of the heat stakes are 
no longer doing their thing, so it may need some TLC in the near future)



The quality of tools has declined.  It used to be that Sears Roebuck
"Craftsman" hand tools were among the best and were sold with an
unconditional warranty.  Not so any more.


Their power tools weren't bad, either - I've got a few old ones kicking 
around bought from yard sales etc. because it's nice to have a backup, and 
they seem to be quite robust.



I once got a pair of electrician's pliers caught between the yoke and
body of a 6" pneumatic cylinder.  Snapped the handles right off, it did.


That's impressive. I actually grabbed a pair of cheapo Masterforce 
lineman's pliers (i.e. same brand as the socket I got for the model M) as a 
spare pair for when I can't find my good ones, and the pivot started going 
bad after only a few uses.


The problem I have these days is that you just don't get what you pay for - 
throwing more money at a tool doesn't seem to equate to better quality, and 
a lot of the high end stuff's using weak plastic parts or sharing the same 
motors and such with the lower-end products. I can never decide whether to 
buy new and deal with short lifespan, or buy old and put time/effort into 
fixing any wear.



  The local Sears store replaced the pliers without questioning--
although they did marvel at the damage.


I don't think we have a Sears here any more, at least not a real one. They 
moved a few years ago and I think the new one just sells fridges and things 
like that.


cheers

Jules

Re: Model M case screws

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 7:03 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 07/01/2017 10:27 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I was told years ago that in general the thinner-wall sockets are better
>> quality -- they have to be made from stronger steel alloy to work at
>> all. Obviously there are exceptions
>
> It wouldn't surprise me if some of the cheaper stuff was made from pot
> metal.  I encountered a small Chinese adjustable wrench that was, in
> fact, made just that way with a nice chromium plating.  I think it was
> intended to be more decorative than functional.

Over here you get things like that in 'pound shops' (equivalent of
dollar stores). Spanners that seem to be made of unbaked
clay or something of similar strength.

>
> The quality of tools has declined.  It used to be that Sears Roebuck
> "Craftsman" hand tools were among the best and were sold with an
> unconditional warranty.  Not so any more.

The best spanners I have come across are made by Stahlwille. But be
sitting down when they quote the price. The few I have I expect to
last for the rest of my life though.

-tony

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/01/2017 10:27 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:

> I was told years ago that in general the thinner-wall sockets are better
> quality -- they have to be made from stronger steel alloy to work at
> all. Obviously there are exceptions

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the cheaper stuff was made from pot
metal.  I encountered a small Chinese adjustable wrench that was, in
fact, made just that way with a nice chromium plating.  I think it was
intended to be more decorative than functional.

The quality of tools has declined.  It used to be that Sears Roebuck
"Craftsman" hand tools were among the best and were sold with an
unconditional warranty.  Not so any more.

I once got a pair of electrician's pliers caught between the yoke and
body of a 6" pneumatic cylinder.  Snapped the handles right off, it did.
  The local Sears store replaced the pliers without
questioning--although they did marvel at the damage.

--Chuck

Re: Model M case screws

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 12:09 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk
 wrote:

> Anyway, I picked up a cheap 7/32" deep socket from Menards ($3 or so) - and
> as it happens, it Just Works without modification. It's not marketed as
> thin-walled; I expect they just made it cheap by leaving out a bunch of
> metal, but that works in my favor in this case. (It's a Master Force one,
> just in case any future beings reading this need to know)

I was told years ago that in general the thinner-wall sockets are better
quality -- they have to be made from stronger steel alloy to work at
all. Obviously there are exceptions

-tony

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/01/2017 01:23 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:

> It does look like I can get a 7/32" socket for a couple of bucks, though
> - so maybe I'll go that route for now and just shave it down a little
> with the bench grinder. It can live on the shelf with the homebrew Mac
> case dismantling tool ;)

Don't.   You need a *thinshell*  nutdriver--ordinary sockets are too
thick. Like others, I use a 7/32 Xcelite full-size driver.

--Chuck

Re: Model M case screws

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 07/01/2017 02:12 PM, Adam Sampson via cctalk wrote:

Jules Richardson via cctalk  writes:


Google suggests that they might be 7/32", but I'm not sure; that's
less of a common size (vs. 3/16" or 1/4", say) - I'm not even sure I
could find a driver like that around here.


Yes, they're 7/32", but in a narrow hole that means some bits won't
reach.


Hmm, well I'll see what I can find when I go into town in a little bit - 
looking at websites for local stores though it seems I'm probably not going 
to have any luck with a 7/32" driver.


It does look like I can get a 7/32" socket for a couple of bucks, though - 
so maybe I'll go that route for now and just shave it down a little with 
the bench grinder. It can live on the shelf with the homebrew Mac case 
dismantling tool ;)


cheers

Jules

Re: Model M case screws

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 8:12 PM, Adam Sampson via cctalk
 wrote:
> Jules Richardson via cctalk  writes:
>
>> Google suggests that they might be 7/32", but I'm not sure; that's
>> less of a common size (vs. 3/16" or 1/4", say) - I'm not even sure I
>> could find a driver like that around here.
>
> Yes, they're 7/32", but in a narrow hole that means some bits won't
> reach. Xcelite do a nut driver that fits nicely:
> https://stuff.offog.org/model-m-screwdriver.jpg
>
> I got mine in the UK a few years ago from Mouser, part numbers 578-997
> for the driver and 578-99-1 for the handle.

That's what I use as well, Xcellite System 99. I bought almost the complete
range over the years, it's the easiest way to get Bristol spline keys (needed
for the Friden Flexowriter, IBM5155 monitor, etc) in the UK.

Incidentally the System 99 torx bits on an X5 extension will fit the recessed
screws of a Mac Plus (etc).

-tony

Re: Model M case screws

[Adam Sampson via cctalk]

Jules Richardson via cctalk  writes:

> Google suggests that they might be 7/32", but I'm not sure; that's
> less of a common size (vs. 3/16" or 1/4", say) - I'm not even sure I
> could find a driver like that around here.

Yes, they're 7/32", but in a narrow hole that means some bits won't
reach. Xcelite do a nut driver that fits nicely:
https://stuff.offog.org/model-m-screwdriver.jpg

I got mine in the UK a few years ago from Mouser, part numbers 578-997
for the driver and 578-99-1 for the handle.

-- 
Adam Sampson  

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/01/2017 09:28 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:

> Google suggests that they might be 7/32", but I'm not sure; that's less
> of a common size (vs. 3/16" or 1/4", say) - I'm not even sure I could
> find a driver like that around here.

That's exactly what I use--get a decent one; some of the Chinese imports
have too thick a "shell" to work in this application.  I think a 5.5mm
driver will also work, but I haven't tried it.

--Chuck