Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/06/2017 01:56 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Oct 5, 2017, at 6:19 PM, allison via cctalk  wrote:
>>
>> Moore's law only worked for hardware, software lagged typically two
>> years behind.
> There's a more cynical view, sometimes called "the virtual disease", which is 
> that software performance is constant because all the gains from Moore's law 
> have been consumed by increased software inefficiency and complexity.
The key is mature technologies got speed from efficient software and
hardware when programmers were
skilled and they were many.  Now it though hardware at it.  Best example
is Rpi 3b using Raspbian linux to
control and monitor a garage door over the Internet.  Seems like Atomic
weapons to kill ants to me. But it
was cheap.

The rule is still to go twice as fast the cpu has to be 3x faster and
run the same crappy code.  IF the code updates
then the CPU has to faster still.None of the 64 bit PC OSs seem
faster than the previous 32bit despite being
on faster platforms.

> A related aspect is an observation from my boss at DEC: interrupts (context 
> switches) always take 10 microseconds no matter how fast the CPU is.
Likely I worked with him back when.  VAXen did the context switch fairly
fast and the PDP11 was really good but, PCs yuck.
And the more complex the OS the worse it is no matter how many cores!

> Both of these are slightly unfair but much too close to the truth for comfort.
Actually right on the nose if you ask me.  Then again I still use a
Epson PX-8 Z80-CP/M system because
it works!

Allison
>   paul
>

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/06/2017 03:42 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 10/5/2017 4:19 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> On 10/05/2017 03:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 10/05/2017 04:22 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>>>
 Funny the market knew of the 386 in the fall of '85 but it would be
 three years before I'd see
 one in the field.  Disks and CPUs lagged the introductions by 
 years due
 to cost.
>>> It was hard to rationalize the extra cost of a 16MHz 80386 when there
>>> was little software or performance gain over a fast 80286 box when
>>> running MS-DOS--the dominant OS of the day.
>>>
>>> I recall an Intel engineer opining on the subject.  "We give you a
>>> 32-bit advanced architecture CPU and you p*ss it away running DOS."
>>>
>>> Compatibility is a tough mistress.
>>>
>>> --Chuck
>>
>> Moore's law only worked for hardware, software lagged typically two
>> years behind.
>>
>> Of course when we did get something else Venix and winders  winders was
>> the winner
>> and a poor one at that.
>>
>> Allison
>>
>
> Did anything ever use *ADVANCED ACHITECTURE(?.
> Games don't count here.
> Ben.

Fred hit the nail on the head.  How did computer with less than 64K of
memory deal with
millions of subscribers?  Good code that used the disk as addressable space.

 By the late 80s I was solving problems on the trailing edge using less
speed and
power.  That and a being a bit crafty.  The trick was to not allow
creeping featurism
one plus the poor thing to death.

Allison

>
>

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[ben via cctalk]

On 10/5/2017 4:19 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:

On 10/05/2017 03:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 10/05/2017 04:22 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:


Funny the market knew of the 386 in the fall of '85 but it would be
three years before I'd see
one in the field.  Disks and CPUs lagged the introductions by  years due
to cost.

It was hard to rationalize the extra cost of a 16MHz 80386 when there
was little software or performance gain over a fast 80286 box when
running MS-DOS--the dominant OS of the day.

I recall an Intel engineer opining on the subject.  "We give you a
32-bit advanced architecture CPU and you p*ss it away running DOS."

Compatibility is a tough mistress.

--Chuck


Moore's law only worked for hardware, software lagged typically two
years behind.

Of course when we did get something else Venix and winders  winders was
the winner
and a poor one at that.

Allison



Did anything ever use *ADVANCED ACHITECTURE(?.
Games don't count here.
Ben.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On 10/05/2017 03:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I recall an Intel engineer opining on the subject.  "We give you a
32-bit advanced architecture CPU and you p*ss it away running DOS."
Compatibility is a tough mistress.


My neighbor at one of the West Coast Computer Faires had a new 386 
computer; he told me about some of the neat improvements; and then said,
"But, until the next generation of software, it's really no more than an 
expensive fast 286".

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 5, 2017, at 6:19 PM, allison via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Moore's law only worked for hardware, software lagged typically two
> years behind.

There's a more cynical view, sometimes called "the virtual disease", which is 
that software performance is constant because all the gains from Moore's law 
have been consumed by increased software inefficiency and complexity.

A related aspect is an observation from my boss at DEC: interrupts (context 
switches) always take 10 microseconds no matter how fast the CPU is.

Both of these are slightly unfair but much too close to the truth for comfort.

paul

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/05/2017 05:37 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 10/05/2017 01:27 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I once had a Tecmar SASI adapter  (I still have the documentation
>> and diskette) I seem to recall that it was mostly buffers which
>> would suggest that most of the work was done by the device driver.
>> The disks that went with it where  ST506 drives connected to Xebec
>> S1410 bridge cards.   This card/device driver also supported having
>> multiple initiators  so more than one PC could share that massive 10,
>> 15 or 33MB disk.
> My Ampex card is a not-very dense full-length card with LSTTL and one
> 2732 EPROM.  Connection is made by a 25-position dual row (0.1) header
> poking through the rear bracket.  Probably cheaper than any D-sub or
> "Centronics" type connector of the same pincount.
>
> IIRC, the PC Megastore also included a streaming 1/4" tape drive in the
> same box.  According to Infoworld, the MSRP was about $3775.  Disks
> weren't cheap in 1985.
>
> Ampex used the "Megastore" tag on a bunch of things, including their
> memory-as-a-fixed-disk for minicomputers.
>
> --Chuck
>
know about Plus. This is a WD product and has a 21mb model 93028-5-20-1989.
its 40 pin IO is IDE and the board has eprom and nus interface  parts
only.  It carries
a board date of 1988 and all the chips on the board have '88 or earlier
date codes.
It is ISA-8 (small card) in a frame that carries the card and the drive
with is the
1.5" thick 3.5" format.  CHS written on it from my system days using it has
c=782,h=2,s=27.  FYI its slower than sludge as its a stepper drive for
the heads.

I find odd stuff when I go in the closet where I store things.it was
under 4 Compaq 1.05 GB
SCSI-2 drives.-

Allison

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/05/2017 03:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 10/05/2017 04:22 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Funny the market knew of the 386 in the fall of '85 but it would be
>> three years before I'd see
>> one in the field.  Disks and CPUs lagged the introductions by  years due
>> to cost.
> It was hard to rationalize the extra cost of a 16MHz 80386 when there
> was little software or performance gain over a fast 80286 box when
> running MS-DOS--the dominant OS of the day.
>
> I recall an Intel engineer opining on the subject.  "We give you a
> 32-bit advanced architecture CPU and you p*ss it away running DOS."
>
> Compatibility is a tough mistress.
>
> --Chuck

Moore's law only worked for hardware, software lagged typically two
years behind.

Of course when we did get something else Venix and winders  winders was
the winner
and a poor one at that.

Allison

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 10/05/2017 03:27 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:



I once had a Tecmar SASI adapter  (I still have the 
documentation and diskette) I seem to recall that it was 
mostly buffers which would suggest that most of the work 
was done by the device driver. The disks that went with it 
where  ST506 drives connected to Xebec S1410 bridge 
cards.   This card/device driver also supported having 
multiple initiators  so more than one PC could share that 
massive 10, 15 or 33MB disk.


Sure, I put a SASI disk onto a CP/M system.  The interface 
was basically a bidirectional 8-bit port with some extra 
handshake lines.  The physical interface was as simple as 
could be, the software was also quite simple.  I used the 
INIR/OUTIR instructions on the Z-80 that were pretty close 
to a DMA operation.


Jon

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2017-10-05 8:22 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:



On 10/5/17 5:53 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
Also, the early desktop PS/2 (model 50 and such) had the controller 
integrated on the drive and those were Maxtor as I recall.  The PS/2 
shipped in 1987 and we had the drives in labs at least 12-18 months 
prior (memory is dim on this right now).


No. The IBM 8550 has the controller on a special card and the drive 
had a PCB edge that inserted into the PCB connector on the side of 
the controller. The 8550-021 used a 20MB IBM WD-325N disk drive (P/N 
90X6806). The controller is a ST-506 type MFM controller (with DMA, 
so it rocks with a sustained data rate of above 500kB/s!). My father 
upgraded the system with a standard Rhodime 50MB MFM drive. There was 
a purely passive adapter that split the card edge connector into the 
normal 20+34 pin connectors plus power. I still have that system and 
drive :-)


Christian
I have the 10MB hardcard, WD I think.  Its a 10mb 8bit IDE interface 
on the ISA-8 full length card.
The card has EPROM and bus level interface only (buffers) and I think 
512k of ram (have to check).
I got it second hand after an upgrade in '94ish but then most users 
were happy to have 10 or

20mb of disk.

Funny the market knew of the 386 in the fall of '85 but it would be 
three years before I'd see
one in the field.  Disks and CPUs lagged the introductions by years 
due to cost.


Allison
there was a company called "Plus" that made a product called hardcard   
that had the controller and drive electronics on the same ISA card and a 
disk enclosure on the back of the card.  I took a dead one apart and 
they have one of the weirdest actuator assemblies I have ever seen.  
There where 8 bit and 16 bit versions of the cards.


Paul.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2017-10-05 4:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 10/05/2017 11:39 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:

From: Chuck Guzis
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 1:46 PM


As an aside, I picked up a 1986 Wren II full-height manual that discussed the
drive and its various interfaces.  Sadly, IDE isn't one, but SCSI is referred
to as "SASI Subset"; i.e. "SCSI (SASI subset)"

I believe that you're reading that backwards.  What it says is that this is a
SCSI-compatible device which employs only the SASI subset of SCSI commands, not
that "SCSI" is a subset of "SASI".

Okay, that makes sense, even if it is a bit confusing--I recall that the
SASI disk drive protocol was pretty simple.

--Chuck
I once had a Tecmar SASI adapter  (I still have the documentation and 
diskette) I seem to recall that it was mostly buffers which would 
suggest that most of the work was done by the device driver. The disks 
that went with it where  ST506 drives connected to Xebec S1410 bridge 
cards.   This card/device driver also supported having multiple 
initiators  so more than one PC could share that massive 10, 15 or 33MB 
disk.


The Xbec controller manual that is in the documentation suggests that 
the SASI command set was much simpler that SCSI.


Paul.

RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

> > That concurs with my observation that SCSI was initially an Apple 
> > convention.
> > I can recall conversations about SASI vs. Apple SCSI.
>
> And like Fred, I don't believe that it does any such thing.
>
>Rich

Me too.  Given how Apple mangled the 50pin SCSI connector into a 25pin one,
it is hard to see how they could have been responsible for coming up with it.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/05/2017 04:22 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> Funny the market knew of the 386 in the fall of '85 but it would be
> three years before I'd see
> one in the field.  Disks and CPUs lagged the introductions by  years due
> to cost.

It was hard to rationalize the extra cost of a 16MHz 80386 when there
was little software or performance gain over a fast 80286 box when
running MS-DOS--the dominant OS of the day.

I recall an Intel engineer opining on the subject.  "We give you a
32-bit advanced architecture CPU and you p*ss it away running DOS."

Compatibility is a tough mistress.

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/05/2017 11:39 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> From: Chuck Guzis
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 1:46 PM
> 
>> As an aside, I picked up a 1986 Wren II full-height manual that discussed the
>> drive and its various interfaces.  Sadly, IDE isn't one, but SCSI is referred
>> to as "SASI Subset"; i.e. "SCSI (SASI subset)"
> 
> I believe that you're reading that backwards.  What it says is that this is a
> SCSI-compatible device which employs only the SASI subset of SCSI commands, 
> not
> that "SCSI" is a subset of "SASI".

Okay, that makes sense, even if it is a bit confusing--I recall that the
SASI disk drive protocol was pretty simple.

--Chuck

RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Rich Alderson via cctalk]

From: Chuck Guzis
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 1:46 PM

> As an aside, I picked up a 1986 Wren II full-height manual that discussed the
> drive and its various interfaces.  Sadly, IDE isn't one, but SCSI is referred
> to as "SASI Subset"; i.e. "SCSI (SASI subset)"

I believe that you're reading that backwards.  What it says is that this is a
SCSI-compatible device which employs only the SASI subset of SCSI commands, not
that "SCSI" is a subset of "SASI".

> That concurs with my observation that SCSI was initially an Apple convention.
> I can recall conversations about SASI vs. Apple SCSI.

And like Fred, I don't believe that it does any such thing.

Rich


Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134

http://www.LivingComputers.org/

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/5/17 5:53 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
Also, the early desktop PS/2 (model 50 and such) had the controller 
integrated on the drive and those were Maxtor as I recall.  The PS/2 
shipped in 1987 and we had the drives in labs at least 12-18 months 
prior (memory is dim on this right now).


No. The IBM 8550 has the controller on a special card and the drive 
had a PCB edge that inserted into the PCB connector on the side of the 
controller. The 8550-021 used a 20MB IBM WD-325N disk drive (P/N 
90X6806). The controller is a ST-506 type MFM controller (with DMA, so 
it rocks with a sustained data rate of above 500kB/s!). My father 
upgraded the system with a standard Rhodime 50MB MFM drive. There was 
a purely passive adapter that split the card edge connector into the 
normal 20+34 pin connectors plus power. I still have that system and 
drive :-)


Christian
I have the 10MB hardcard, WD I think.  Its a 10mb 8bit IDE interface on 
the ISA-8 full length card.
The card has EPROM and bus level interface only (buffers) and I think 
512k of ram (have to check).
I got it second hand after an upgrade in '94ish but then most users were 
happy to have 10 or

20mb of disk.

Funny the market knew of the 386 in the fall of '85 but it would be 
three years before I'd see
one in the field.  Disks and CPUs lagged the introductions by  years due 
to cost.


Allison

RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

WD acquired the Tandon drive business in 1988 so it was both a drive maker
and a chip supplier to other drive makers.

WD used the term "Integrated Drive Electronics" internally as early as June
23, 1985 on proprietary business plans (I have copies) but the target
"Intelligent Drive" interfaces are SCSI and "host level" without detail so I
don't think this counts as IDE in the sense of ATA.  My recollection is they
were then thinking more along the lines of direct connection to the host bus
- like Hardcard did.

Hallam speaking as a WD employee did not use IDE in his October 1986 Buscon
presentation where he disclosed direct connection to AT bus extension with
40 pin connector.  

An early WD (second?)  "intelligent" drive was announced in a September 23,
1989 press release as, "WESTERN DIGITAL ANNOUNCES VOLUME SHIPMENT OF ITS NEW
AT-COMPATIBLE, 3.5-INCH INTELLIGENT DRIVES" and "WD93024-A and WD93044-A, a
pair of AT-compatible, 3.5-inch, intelligent disk drives."  It did not use
the term IDE.  I looked for a product spec on line but did not find any.
Photos of these early WD intelligent drives either show no interface
definition or use the terms "PC XT" or "PC AT".

My recollection is that WD was indeed the leading proponent of "IDE" but I
can't find usage by them in 1989.

Tom



-Original Message-
From: Fred Cisin [mailto:ci...@xenosoft.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 6:32 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM
drives on a IBM PC]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Why on earth would WD have anything to do with it?  They supplied the 
> controller, but not the drives.  I used to have an early Maxtor ~50MB 
> 3.5" drive with bugs in the interface.  Nowhere did they give any nod to
WD.

I was thinking in terms of their wholesale marketing TO the drive companies.
When they wanted to peddle their chipset to Maxtor, etc. what materials did
they send?
I assumed that WD was the first to produce a controller chipset.
Or was WD even the maker of the controller chips on the drive?

You're right, though, that WD may be totally irrelevant.
Surely, it would not have been hard for any of the drive makers to start
making their own.


When did any of the drive makers start saying "IDE" on their drive spec 
sheets?  (I've already make my rant about them not putting any of the 
information on the drive that was necessary for end users to use the 
drive)

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Oct 5, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 2017-10-05 12:57 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
>>> On Oct 5, 2017, at 2:53 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
 Also, the early desktop PS/2 (model 50 and such) had the controller 
 integrated on the drive and those were Maxtor as I recall.  The PS/2 
 shipped in 1987 and we had the drives in labs at least 12-18 months prior 
 (memory is dim on this right now).
>>> No. The IBM 8550 has the controller on a special card and the drive had a 
>>> PCB edge that inserted into the PCB connector on the side of the 
>>> controller. The 8550-021 used a 20MB IBM WD-325N disk drive (P/N 90X6806). 
>>> The controller is a ST-506 type MFM controller (with DMA, so it rocks with 
>>> a sustained data rate of above 500kB/s!). My father upgraded the system 
>>> with a standard Rhodime 50MB MFM drive. There was a purely passive adapter 
>>> that split the card edge connector into the normal 20+34 pin connectors 
>>> plus power. I still have that system and drive :-)
>>> 
>> OK, my recollection must be faulty since I thought that the “riser” was 
>> passive e.g. just some connectors for HDD and floppy, traces and plugged 
>> into the motherboard.
>> 
>> There were a number of different drives.  I don’t recall the 20MB drive.  I 
>> mostly saw 60MB and 120MB drives.
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
>> 
> It would appear that the original 50 was shipped with a ST506 disk drive that 
> would seem to have been connected to microchannel adapter card.  The 50Z is 
> described as coming with an ESDI drive, and from the pictures I have seen the 
> drive plug into an adapter card that is in turn plugged into a reserved slot 
> on the system board  that may be a regular microchannel slot, but was 
> reserved because the drive plugged directly into a connector on the card.  
> This card does have logic and EPROMs on it so is more that a simple riser, 
> the drive however does not have standard ESDI connectors on it  and does 
> resemble the DBA drives.  The model 70 that is in a case very similar to 50 
> and 50Z has what is called Direct Bus Attach (DBA) drives with a riser from 
> the system board that provides connectors for the DBA disk and diskette 
> drives.  The model 70 tech ref manual shows the connector for the DBA drive 
> as being on the microchannel bus.  I do remember seeing 50s and 70s, but most 
> of the PS/2s I saw when doing machine room support where 60s and 80s.
> 

Yea, most of my work on PS/2’s were on 60s, 70s, 80s and various 95s (as well 
as the P70 luggable).  I don’t recall doing very much (if anything on the 50), 
so it may in fact have been different.

I was also on the team that did the processor card for the 70-486 and the 
“Spock” and “Tribble” SCSI microchannel cards.

TTFN - Guy

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2017-10-05 12:57 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:

On Oct 5, 2017, at 2:53 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk  
wrote:

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:

Also, the early desktop PS/2 (model 50 and such) had the controller integrated 
on the drive and those were Maxtor as I recall.  The PS/2 shipped in 1987 and 
we had the drives in labs at least 12-18 months prior (memory is dim on this 
right now).

No. The IBM 8550 has the controller on a special card and the drive had a PCB 
edge that inserted into the PCB connector on the side of the controller. The 
8550-021 used a 20MB IBM WD-325N disk drive (P/N 90X6806). The controller is a 
ST-506 type MFM controller (with DMA, so it rocks with a sustained data rate of 
above 500kB/s!). My father upgraded the system with a standard Rhodime 50MB MFM 
drive. There was a purely passive adapter that split the card edge connector 
into the normal 20+34 pin connectors plus power. I still have that system and 
drive :-)


OK, my recollection must be faulty since I thought that the “riser” was passive 
e.g. just some connectors for HDD and floppy, traces and plugged into the 
motherboard.

There were a number of different drives.  I don’t recall the 20MB drive.  I 
mostly saw 60MB and 120MB drives.

TTFN - Guy

It would appear that the original 50 was shipped with a ST506 disk drive 
that would seem to have been connected to microchannel adapter card.  
The 50Z is described as coming with an ESDI drive, and from the pictures 
I have seen the drive plug into an adapter card that is in turn plugged 
into a reserved slot on the system board  that may be a regular 
microchannel slot, but was reserved because the drive plugged directly 
into a connector on the card.  This card does have logic and EPROMs on 
it so is more that a simple riser, the drive however does not have 
standard ESDI connectors on it  and does resemble the DBA drives.  The 
model 70 that is in a case very similar to 50 and 50Z has what is called 
Direct Bus Attach (DBA) drives with a riser from the system board that 
provides connectors for the DBA disk and diskette drives.  The model 70 
tech ref manual shows the connector for the DBA drive as being on the 
microchannel bus.  I do remember seeing 50s and 70s, but most of the 
PS/2s I saw when doing machine room support where 60s and 80s.


Paul.
Paul.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Oct 5, 2017, at 2:53 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
>> Also, the early desktop PS/2 (model 50 and such) had the controller 
>> integrated on the drive and those were Maxtor as I recall.  The PS/2 shipped 
>> in 1987 and we had the drives in labs at least 12-18 months prior (memory is 
>> dim on this right now).
> 
> No. The IBM 8550 has the controller on a special card and the drive had a PCB 
> edge that inserted into the PCB connector on the side of the controller. The 
> 8550-021 used a 20MB IBM WD-325N disk drive (P/N 90X6806). The controller is 
> a ST-506 type MFM controller (with DMA, so it rocks with a sustained data 
> rate of above 500kB/s!). My father upgraded the system with a standard 
> Rhodime 50MB MFM drive. There was a purely passive adapter that split the 
> card edge connector into the normal 20+34 pin connectors plus power. I still 
> have that system and drive :-)
> 

OK, my recollection must be faulty since I thought that the “riser” was passive 
e.g. just some connectors for HDD and floppy, traces and plugged into the 
motherboard.

There were a number of different drives.  I don’t recall the 20MB drive.  I 
mostly saw 60MB and 120MB drives.

TTFN - Guy

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
Also, the early desktop PS/2 (model 50 and such) had the controller 
integrated on the drive and those were Maxtor as I recall.  The PS/2 
shipped in 1987 and we had the drives in labs at least 12-18 months 
prior (memory is dim on this right now).


No. The IBM 8550 has the controller on a special card and the drive had a 
PCB edge that inserted into the PCB connector on the side of the 
controller. The 8550-021 used a 20MB IBM WD-325N disk drive (P/N 90X6806). 
The controller is a ST-506 type MFM controller (with DMA, so it rocks with 
a sustained data rate of above 500kB/s!). My father upgraded the system 
with a standard Rhodime 50MB MFM drive. There was a purely passive adapter 
that split the card edge connector into the normal 20+34 pin connectors 
plus power. I still have that system and drive :-)


Christian

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

Seriously,

one name was forgotten, WD, that the drive maker but the chip maker. 
The chipset used for
board then drive level was the same or successors and the came from WD.

Allison


On 10/04/2017 03:03 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:
> Adam – thanks for the research, can I assume that the other ads u found were 
> also CompuAdd clone ads?
>
>  
>
> CompuAdd is really interesting because it clearly predates the CAM meeting in 
> early 1989.  Here is a quote from the March 9, 1989, CAM minutes
>
> “Gene Milligan pointed out that there is some standardization activity being 
> done by Conner and Miniscribe in the area of mechanical and electrical 
> characteristics of the AT controller interface (with specific application to 
> embedded AT controller interface disk drives)”
>
>  
>
> “Embedded AT Controller” in some form (even just “AT”) seems to be the term 
> of the industry prior to “IDE” and “ATA”
>
>  
>
> I have some fairly complete files on disk drive companies and from the 
> limited material I have it appears that neither Conner, nor MiniScribe, nor 
> Quantum, nor Imprimis used “IDE” in any form in their advertisements and 
> product literature until well after the CAM meeting.  Here are some examples:
>
> YYY-MM   Company   Quote Source
>
> 1987-06  Conner   an embedded IBM PC/AT controller
>  CP342 announcement Press Release
>
> 1988-02  Conner   designed to operate on an IBM PC AT 
> CP3022 Product Spec
>
> 1989-03  Imprimis A choice of industry-standard interfaces — 
> SCSI, ESDI, AT, ST506  OEM Product Catalog
>
> 1989-04  CAM Com. Definition - ATA (AT Attachment):   
>   ATA-1 rev 2
>
> 1989-09  Quantum   the new ProDrive products are available with 
> embedded SCSI or AT-Bus controllers. ProDrive 120-210 
> announcement PR
>
> 1989-10  Miniscribe ST412, XT, AT, SCSI , or SCSI Macintosh 
> interface 1989 Product Guide
>
> 1989-10  PrairieTek  DRIVE W ITH EMBEDDED AT OR XT CONTROLLER 
> PT120 & PT240 data sheer
>
> 1989-11  Kalok   Full SCSI, PC/AT or PS/2 interface 
> compatibility Octagon I Family
>
> 1990-07  Arealdrives with the SCSI or AT interface
>   
>EN article
>
> Of course my files are not as complete as Porter’s so if this becomes 
> important I might have to visit the CHM and check them out.
>
>  
>
> The question becomes whose drives were CompuAdd using?  BTW if you scan two 
> pages on in the cited PC Magazine u will find CompuAdd offering add-on “HDDs” 
> for the “IBM-ATs” and “IBM-XTs”  from MiniScribe and Seagate - at that time 
> Seagate did not have an ATA (or IDE) drive so maybe CompuAdd’s drives weren’t 
> ATA as we now know it.
>
>  
>
> In any event this discussion started with an assertion that IDE preceded ATA 
> and so far the evidence suggests IDE was at best contemporaneous.
>
>  
>
> Tom
>
>  
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Adam Sampson [mailto:a...@offog.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 12:57 PM
> To: Tom Gardner via cctalk
> Subject: Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM 
> drives on a IBM PC]
>
>  
>
> Tom Gardner via cctalk <  
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> writes:
>
>  
>
>> But again if anyone has any documents dating IDE in the 1980s I d love 
>> to see them
>  
>
> Don't forget the Internet Archive's impressive collection of scanned 
> magazines for questions like this! There are several references in 1989 in 
> Infoworld and similar periodicals.
>
>  
>
> The earliest I could find from a quick search is this ad from CompuAdd 
> Corporation in PC Magazine, December 27th 1988, listing PC clones with 
> "Integrated Drive Electronics fixed disk drive interface" and "IDE fixed disk 
> drive interface":
>
>   
> https://archive.org/stream/PC-Mag-1988-12-27#page/n227/mode/2up
>
>  
>
> The ad in the 1988-11-15 issue doesn't mention IDE, so it looks like that's 
> one of the first times CompuAdd thought it was useful for marketing...
>
>  
>
> Cheers,
>
>  
>

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Why on earth would WD have anything to do with it?  They supplied the
controller, but not the drives.  I used to have an early Maxtor ~50MB
3.5" drive with bugs in the interface.  Nowhere did they give any nod to WD.


I was thinking in terms of their wholesale marketing TO the drive 
companies.  When they wanted to peddle their chipset to Maxtor, etc. what 
materials did they send?

I assumed that WD was the first to produce a controller chipset.
Or was WD even the maker of the controller chips on the drive?

You're right, though, that WD may be totally irrelevant.
Surely, it would not have been hard for any of the drive makers to start 
making their own.



When did any of the drive makers start saying "IDE" on their drive spec 
sheets?  (I've already make my rant about them not putting any of the 
information on the drive that was necessary for end users to use the 
drive)

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Oct 4, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 10/04/2017 03:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Why on earth would WD have anything to do with it?  They supplied the
> controller, but not the drives.  I used to have an early Maxtor ~50MB
> 3.5" drive with bugs in the interface.  Nowhere did they give any nod to WD.
> 

Also, the early desktop PS/2 (model 50 and such) had the controller integrated 
on the drive
and those were Maxtor as I recall.  The PS/2 shipped in 1987 and we had the 
drives in labs
at least 12-18 months prior (memory is dim on this right now).

TTFN - Guy

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/04/2017 03:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

Why on earth would WD have anything to do with it?  They supplied the
controller, but not the drives.  I used to have an early Maxtor ~50MB
3.5" drive with bugs in the interface.  Nowhere did they give any nod to WD.

--Chuck

RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

After reading all the input I updated the article at:

http://chmss.wikifoundry.com/page/Compaq%2FConner+CP341+IDE%2FATA+Drive 

where you will now find a picture of what is likely the first ATA drive, called 
“fixed disk drive with embedded controller” by Compaq J

 

You might note that the article was approved by the CHM Storage SIG wherein it 
states:

 

The major reasons that ATA has become the most successful disk drive interface 
are: 
   1.  Ease of integration: the emulation of the WD1003 controller 
implementation in the PC/AT allowed booting without BIOS modifications, 
initially up to 528MB and subsequently to 137GB, although there were a number 
of other barriers to increased capacity that also had to be overcome along the 
way [16]

1.  2.  Low host cost and complexity: by separating the WD1003 
functions from the host functions, the cost of the host adapter was reduced to 
the point where it could be integrated first on to the motherboard and then 
into the “Southbridge.”

2.  3.  Acceleration of technology advancement: Like SCSI and the other 
“intelligent” interfaces, this broke the “controller barrier” but IDE/ATA was 
the only one that also had the above two advantages, providing a significant 
reduction in time-to-market and enabling ATA to rapidly catch up to the high 
end areal density growth curve, where it became the disk capacity leader, with 
the lowest cost per GB.

 

FWIW, the “controller barrier” is the delay in drive market acceptance required 
to design a new controller for a new drive interface.  For SMD is was about two 
years.

 

tom

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Impressive amateur historical research on this list!


On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Adam Sampson via cctalk wrote:

The earliest I could find from a quick search is this ad from CompuAdd
Corporation in PC Magazine, December 27th 1988, listing PC clones with
"Integrated Drive Electronics fixed disk drive interface" and "IDE fixed
disk drive interface":
https://archive.org/stream/PC-Mag-1988-12-27#page/n227/mode/2up

The ad in the 1988-11-15 issue doesn't mention IDE, so it looks like
that's one of the first times CompuAdd thought it was useful for
marketing...


So, we have ATA pinpointed as a NAME at 30 Mar, 89, with probable earlier 
discussion.
CompuAdd pinpointed use of NAME "IDE" between 11/15/88 and 12/27/88, 
(consider the lead time for the ad?) 
with others following in january 89, etc.

1989-01-31, Diversified Technology ad: "SCSI, ST506, IDE"
https://archive.org/stream/PC-Mag-1989-01-31#page/n221/mode/2up


If we assume that WD, in spite of shipping product, did not use the NAME 
"IDE" until then, then we have a lead of a few months, which as far as I 
am concerned 3 decades later, is a TIE!


(Unless somebody finds use of "IDE" as a NAME by WD or others prior to the 
Compuadd ads)


Yes, there are SOME situations where time of day of the postmark might be 
significant, here, it is close enough to say that they are the same.
(Elisha Gray V Alexander Graham Bell had other issues more serious than 
who arrived at the patent office first)



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I just pulled off a book from my shelf entitled "The SCSI Bus and IDE
Interface, Protocols, Applications and Programming", by Friedhelm
Schmidt, Addison-Wesley, 1995, ISBN 0-201-42284-0.  (From the look and
feel of the book, this appears to be the first time I've cracked it.)
Here's what Mr. Schmidt has to say on the origins of IDE, pp. 37-38:
"The development of the IDE interface began in 1984, stimulated by the
Texan computer manufacturer, Compaq.  The idea was to embed the hard
disk controller of an IBM AT compatible on the disk drive.  Compaq
contacted the controller manufacturer, Western Digital, in California.
They were to produce an ST506 controller that could be mounted directly
on the disk drive and connected to the system bus via a 40 pin cable.
In 1985, the disk manufacturer, Imprimis, integrated this controller
into its hard disk drives.  Thus, the first IDE disk drive was built and
installed in a Compaq computer system."


Alas, like other definitive references, that pinpoints the drive and the 
interface, but NOT necessarily when they started to use the NAME "IDE".
Did any of the communications between Compaq, WD, Imprimis, etc. use "IDE" 
as a name, either publicly or privately?  Or was that created by the 
marketing people long after there were already retail/wholesale products?


"Other hard disk and computer manufacturers recognized the advantage of 
IDE.  Not only was the increase in the cost of the disk drive 
negligible, but there was a great saving on the hard disk controller. 
Gradually, more and more IDE implementations were developed, and with 
them, the various deviations of the industry standard."

"As a consequence, a committee of the X39.2 working group of ANSI began
to deal with the problems in October, 1988.  As its first project, the
common access method (CAM) committee put forward a suggestion for the
normalization of the IDE interface. The new name for the IDE interface
was ATA. At the time of writing, (February, 1993), version 3.1 of the
proposed standard was the current version, and the process to make it an
ANSI standard was underway."
So another voice on the chicken-vs.-egg question.


"began to deal with the problem in October, 1988",
"He [Dal Allan] said that the AT Attachment project got its name on 30 Mar 
89."


Alas, if WD didn't actively use the NAME "IDE" prior to 30 Mar 89, then 
the issue of which name came first remains unresolved.  (and probably of 
little or no interest to anybody other than US!)


If, on the other hand, anybody can find an official WD use of "IDE" prior 
to 30 Mar 1989, . . . 
That "origin" of the name "AT Attachment" presumably followed some 
informal discussions, just as the use of "IDE" probably followed some 
unofficial uses.(Marketing meetings in those days used flip-charts and 
overhead projector foils, rather than Powerpoint)
How long did WD deal with it before they gave it a NAME?  (other than 
something like "skunkworks", "Project Chess", or "Compaq contract 
project")



I remain in agreement with Mueller's comments of "IDE" being a marketing 
name and "ATA" being formal/"official".  And certainly with the NAMES 
being used mostly contemporaneously, rather than explicitly sequential.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/04/2017 01:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> I don't know why the model number label didn't include the interface,
> number of cylinders and heads, maybe even rotation speed.
> 
> And why the manufacturer's bad track list was often a loose piece of
> paper, rather than a stuck on label.

...or a loose piece of paper stuck into a plastic pouch attached to the
drive.   I ran across a CSC mailer from July, 1990 in my pile of
detritus.  It advertises a Maxtor LXT-200A 201MB 3.5" drive for only
$869.  FWIW, the interface (and I'm quoting Martin here) is described as
"AT on drive (IDE)".

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Martin Bodo had great sales of just such a dead-tree database.


On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

"The Hard Disk Bible" from Corporate Systems Center


Thank you
I shoulda Google'd it to get the name.


I don't know why the model number label didn't include the interface, 
number of cylinders and heads, maybe even rotation speed.


And why the manufacturer's bad track list was often a loose piece of 
paper, rather than a stuck on label.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I just pulled off a book from my shelf entitled "The SCSI Bus and IDE
Interface, Protocols, Applications and Programming", by Friedhelm
Schmidt, Addison-Wesley, 1995, ISBN 0-201-42284-0.  (From the look and
feel of the book, this appears to be the first time I've cracked it.)

Here's what Mr. Schmidt has to say on the origins of IDE, pp. 37-38:

"The development of the IDE interface began in 1984, stimulated by the
Texan computer manufacturer, Compaq.  The idea was to embed the hard
disk controller of an IBM AT compatible on the disk drive.  Compaq
contacted the controller manufacturer, Western Digital, in California.
They were to produce an ST506 controller that could be mounted directly
on the disk drive and connected to the system bus via a 40 pin cable.
In 1985, the disk manufacturer, Imprimis, integrated this controller
into its hard disk drives.  Thus, the first IDE disk drive was built and
installed in a Compaq computer system."

"Other hard disk and computer manufacturers recognized the advantage of
IDE.  Not only was the increase in the cost of the disk drive
negligible, but there was a great saving on the hard disk controller.
Gradually, more and more IDE implementations were developed, and with
them, the various deviations of the industry standard."

"As a consequence, a committee of the X39.2 working group of ANSI began
to deal with the problems in October, 1988.  As its first project, the
common access method (CAM) committee put forward a suggestion for the
normalization of the IDE interface. The new name for the IDE interface
was ATA. At the time of writing, (February, 1993), version 3.1 of the
proposed standard was the current version, and the process to make it an
ANSI standard was underway."

So another voice on the chicken-vs.-egg question.

As an aside, I picked up a 1986 Wren II full-height manual that
discussed the drive and its various interfaces.   Sadly, IDE isn't one,
but SCSI is referred to as "SASI Subset"; i.e. "SCSI (SASI subset)"

That concurs with my observation that SCSI was initially an Apple
convention.  I can recall conversations about SASI vs. Apple SCSI.

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/4/17 12:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Martin Bodo had great sales of just such a dead-tree database.

"The Hard Disk Bible" from Corporate Systems Center

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

Yesterday I exchanged e-mail with Dal Allan (who gave the CAM committee 
reports to X3T9.2). I didn't get permission to post the e-mail here, so 
I will summarize.


He said that the AT Attachment project got its name on 30 Mar 89.

He said that WD was the source of the name IDE, but he doesn't know when 
it was coined.


He said that the CAM committee meeting minutes and ATA document drafts 
were backed up to QIC tape, but were unreadable when it was attempted to 
transfer them to CD, so, unless another member has copies hidden away, 
they are gone.


alan



On 10/4/17 11:14 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

Thanks for your  research which supports my point since all your cites postdate 
the April 1989 date of ATA usage by the CAM committee.

Remember this all started when someone (Fred?) posted that ATA followed IDE.

Regards,

Tom
-Original Message-
From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:p...@dunnington.plus.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 10:56 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM 
drives on a IBM PC]

On 03/10/2017 01:04, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

Unfortunately there is no documentation to support Pete's recollection - if 
there is any I would like to see it.

Well, actually, there is, though not for quite as early as I had those conversations.  The company 
I was referring to was HCCS Associates, and although I can't find a copyright date for their 
original software, I can find pictures of the interfaces, clearly labelled "IDE", and one 
version of the software, called "IDE Manager".  It's version 2.1, dated February 1990.  
They used mostly, but not exclusively, Connor drives, by the way.
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#H
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/HCCS_IDE_A3000.html

Another I can find is another company who made an interface for a slightly 
later machine from the same family, and one version does carry a date, also 
1990.
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/ICS_ideA.html

The Watford Electronics IDE interface (called WE-IDE) for the same series of 
machines was released about the same time.  The software is dated September 
1989.  They used Western Digital drives, amongst others.
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#W

So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were using the 
term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it called anything else 
in that timeframe.


-Original Message-
From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:p...@dunnington.plus.com]
Nope.  I recall conversations with a small-scale developer in the UK
who was creating addons and accessories for the company I worked for
(Acorn
Computers) in 1987-1988, and he was touting IDE

--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

Adam – thanks for the research, can I assume that the other ads u found were 
also CompuAdd clone ads?

 

CompuAdd is really interesting because it clearly predates the CAM meeting in 
early 1989.  Here is a quote from the March 9, 1989, CAM minutes

“Gene Milligan pointed out that there is some standardization activity being 
done by Conner and Miniscribe in the area of mechanical and electrical 
characteristics of the AT controller interface (with specific application to 
embedded AT controller interface disk drives)”

 

“Embedded AT Controller” in some form (even just “AT”) seems to be the term of 
the industry prior to “IDE” and “ATA”

 

I have some fairly complete files on disk drive companies and from the limited 
material I have it appears that neither Conner, nor MiniScribe, nor Quantum, 
nor Imprimis used “IDE” in any form in their advertisements and product 
literature until well after the CAM meeting.  Here are some examples:

YYY-MM   Company   Quote Source

1987-06  Conner   an embedded IBM PC/AT controller  
   CP342 announcement Press Release

1988-02  Conner   designed to operate on an IBM PC AT   
  CP3022 Product Spec

1989-03  Imprimis A choice of industry-standard interfaces — 
SCSI, ESDI, AT, ST506  OEM Product Catalog

1989-04  CAM Com. Definition - ATA (AT Attachment): 
ATA-1 rev 2

1989-09  Quantum   the new ProDrive products are available with 
embedded SCSI or AT-Bus controllers. ProDrive 120-210 
announcement PR

1989-10  Miniscribe ST412, XT, AT, SCSI , or SCSI Macintosh 
interface 1989 Product Guide

1989-10  PrairieTek  DRIVE W ITH EMBEDDED AT OR XT CONTROLLER   
  PT120 & PT240 data sheer

1989-11  Kalok   Full SCSI, PC/AT or PS/2 interface 
compatibility Octagon I Family

1990-07  Arealdrives with the SCSI or AT interface  

   EN article

Of course my files are not as complete as Porter’s so if this becomes important 
I might have to visit the CHM and check them out.

 

The question becomes whose drives were CompuAdd using?  BTW if you scan two 
pages on in the cited PC Magazine u will find CompuAdd offering add-on “HDDs” 
for the “IBM-ATs” and “IBM-XTs”  from MiniScribe and Seagate - at that time 
Seagate did not have an ATA (or IDE) drive so maybe CompuAdd’s drives weren’t 
ATA as we now know it.

 

In any event this discussion started with an assertion that IDE preceded ATA 
and so far the evidence suggests IDE was at best contemporaneous.

 

Tom

 

-Original Message-
From: Adam Sampson [mailto:a...@offog.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 12:57 PM
To: Tom Gardner via cctalk
Subject: Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM 
drives on a IBM PC]

 

Tom Gardner via cctalk <  cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
writes:

 

> But again if anyone has any documents dating IDE in the 1980s I d love 

> to see them

 

Don't forget the Internet Archive's impressive collection of scanned magazines 
for questions like this! There are several references in 1989 in Infoworld and 
similar periodicals.

 

The earliest I could find from a quick search is this ad from CompuAdd 
Corporation in PC Magazine, December 27th 1988, listing PC clones with 
"Integrated Drive Electronics fixed disk drive interface" and "IDE fixed disk 
drive interface":

  
https://archive.org/stream/PC-Mag-1988-12-27#page/n227/mode/2up

 

The ad in the 1988-11-15 issue doesn't mention IDE, so it looks like that's one 
of the first times CompuAdd thought it was useful for marketing...

 

Cheers,

 

-- 

Adam Sampson <  a...@offog.org> 
<  http://offog.org/>

 

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

In my world, anyway, nobody had heard of ATA drives until ATAPI came
along. This popularised the term ATA, and then Serial ATA came along
and plain old parallel IDE was renamed parallel ATA, PATA.

 Similarly to how "DOUBLE Density"
bacame a name before "SINGLE Density" ("SINGLE" was only needed later, to
differentiate it).

Good point. Hadn't thought of that. Before my time!

  And how "WORLD WAR TWO" was used as a name before
"WORLD WAR ONE" was ever used as a name ("The Great War" got renamed when it
was important to compare and differentiate it it from its successor).

_Way_ before my time.



Although sadly I very much fear that WW3 will be in my time. Indeed,
might be the end of it.


It may be a while.  Or today.  But, I don't expect to live that long.  My 
generation goes our entire lives, birth to death, in terror of it. 
Planning for it began in August 1945, and "Duck And Cover" cowering in 
terror of it, has been going on for 60+ years, with a peak during the 
Cuban missile crisis.

We REALLY should have let Nikita Khrushchev go to Disneyland!

The origin of the internet is a giant elephant, and we are many blind 
men, each only seeing individual small parts.
ONE of the [lesser?] incentives for developing the internet was so that 
the IRS (Infernal Revenue Service) would not have collection of taxes 
disrupted by nuclear annhilation.   (Facebook and porn distribution were 
only secondary motiviations for creating it)

RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

Thanks for your  research which supports my point since all your cites postdate 
the April 1989 date of ATA usage by the CAM committee.

Remember this all started when someone (Fred?) posted that ATA followed IDE.

Regards,

Tom
-Original Message-
From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:p...@dunnington.plus.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 10:56 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM 
drives on a IBM PC]

On 03/10/2017 01:04, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:
> Unfortunately there is no documentation to support Pete's recollection - if 
> there is any I would like to see it.

Well, actually, there is, though not for quite as early as I had those 
conversations.  The company I was referring to was HCCS Associates, and 
although I can't find a copyright date for their original software, I can find 
pictures of the interfaces, clearly labelled "IDE", and one version of the 
software, called "IDE Manager".  It's version 2.1, dated February 1990.  They 
used mostly, but not exclusively, Connor drives, by the way.
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#H
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/HCCS_IDE_A3000.html

Another I can find is another company who made an interface for a slightly 
later machine from the same family, and one version does carry a date, also 
1990.
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/ICS_ideA.html

The Watford Electronics IDE interface (called WE-IDE) for the same series of 
machines was released about the same time.  The software is dated September 
1989.  They used Western Digital drives, amongst others.
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#W

So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were using the 
term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it called anything else 
in that timeframe.

> -Original Message-
> From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:p...@dunnington.plus.com]

> Nope.  I recall conversations with a small-scale developer in the UK 
> who was creating addons and accessories for the company I worked for 
> (Acorn
> Computers) in 1987-1988, and he was touting IDE

--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 2 October 2017 at 14:22, Jules Richardson via cctech
 wrote:
>
> Does anyone know why IDE/ATA even came about? I mean, why SCSI wasn't used?

Sure, yes.

It was cheap.

SCSI was expensive, and that was aside from any licensing issues. A
working SCSI bus effectively means 2 smart devices, communicating over
a defined _shared_ channel.

ST-506 was simple, dumb and cheap... like the IBM PC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST-506

As drive capacities grew, ESDI came along.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Small_Disk_Interface

I believe partly due to timing issues, some of the "smarts" of the
controller were moved from the disk controller card onto the drive
electronics -- but the cables were kept the same. (2 cables, 34 pin
control cable, with 3 connectors, shared by up to 2 drives; plus 2×
20-pin data cables, one per drive.)

Then most of the controller electronics were moved onto the drive, so
that no "disk controller" was needed any more -- the drive contained
the controller. Now the 2 cables were consolidated into a single
40-way cable, one end of which connected to the motherboard and the AT
bus. (The 16-bit bus from the IBM PC-AT, so called to distinguish it
from the 8-bit bus of the IBM PC.) The cable had 2 connectors for 2
drives, but they had to be jumpered to tell them which was master and
which was slave, and not all combinations worked, not in the early
days.

IDE was mainly an x86 PC thing at first. Later, the 2nd-generation
Acorn ARM machines had it, and the Commodore Amiga 1200 had an
on-board interface for a 2.5" notebook-sized IDE drive. Later still
Apple adopted it for its cheap home machines, the Performa PowerMacs.
In the early ones, I think the hard disk was IDE and the CD drive was
SCSI, and they still included a SCSI bus.

Around 1994 or so, I ordered some machines from Elonex intended to run
Windows NT 3.1. There was a substantial saving on ordering IDE models
instead of SCSI-equipped ones.

What I didn't know is that these had 540MB drives, and the IDE
definition only allowed for 1024 cylinders, 63 sectors per track and
16 heads -- meaning 528MB max.

These were not IDE drives, they were EIDE drives. Enhanced IDE.

NT 3.1 didn't understand EIDE. It couldn't do Logical Block
Addressing, only Cyl/Head/Track.

So to NT, the last 12MB of these drives was all bad blocks.


Returns and much argument followed. That got me a mention in
Microscope magazine, which later got me an interview at Dennis
Publishing and a job on PC Pro magazine. 21 years later, I'm a tech
writer at SUSE in Prague. Funny how life turns out.

Later, other limits came in at ~8GB, then at ~128GB, then a rather
different one at 2TB.

http://philipstorr.id.au/pcbook/book4/hdlimit.htm



-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 1 October 2017 at 22:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
>
> Q: Is "SATA":  "Serial ATA" or "Serial AT Attachment"?

Serial ATA, to the best of my recollection.

>   (Did they reference
> an acronym without referencing the terms of the acronym, again?)

Yes.

> I am going to guess that "PARALLEL ATA" came into being as a NAME, after
> "SATA", solely to differentiate it.

Yes, this is correct.

However, it does not cover why the term "ATA" started to get used more
than "IDE".

I suspect there were 2 reasons.

[1] IDE is of course overloaded, and also means "Integrated
Development Environment". Plus "Serial IDE" would come out as "side"
which is a normal English word and thus potentially confusing, unlike
"sata" -- which isn't a word -- and "pata" which sounds like "patter"
but was less important as it was a retrospective renaming.

The real reason, I suspect, is that when optical drives -- i.e. CD
drives -- that attached to the IDE interface came along, they needed a
term for them. Yes, they had "integrated drive electronics" but so did
all CD drives. They were not "IDE compatible" -- they needed different
drivers, and I believe needed some rudimentary degree of awareness
from the IDE controller electronics and firmware.

Worse still, they re-used the same connector as used for Panasonic
interface CD drives.

https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~theom/electronics/panasoniccd.html

There was also a proprietary Sony interface, which used the same
connector as the PC floppy drive IDC connector:

http://discussions.virtualdr.com/showthread.php?104601-Unusual-CD-Interface

And finally there was a Mitsumi interface as well:

 http://www.pcguide.com/ref/cd/confProprietary-c.html

Some ISA sound cards had all 3 interfaces.

[2] The other reason, I personally suspect, is that the term used for
the interface of CD drives that connected to the IDE bus was "ATAPI":
"AT Attachment Packet Interface".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATA_Packet_Interface

In my world, anyway, nobody had heard of ATA drives until ATAPI came
along. This popularised the term ATA, and then Serial ATA came along
and plain old parallel IDE was renamed parallel ATA, PATA.

>  Similarly to how "DOUBLE Density"
> bacame a name before "SINGLE Density" ("SINGLE" was only needed later, to
> differentiate it).

Good point. Hadn't thought of that. Before my time!

>   And how "WORLD WAR TWO" was used as a name before
> "WORLD WAR ONE" was ever used as a name ("The Great War" got renamed when it
> was important to compare and differentiate it it from its successor).

_Way_ before my time.

Although sadly I very much fear that WW3 will be in my time. Indeed,
might be the end of it.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/3/17 5:33 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> I have two of the CDC drives, pn 94208-51 date codes 8749 and 8750

I just popped off one of the logic boards, and it is a slightly longer than
usual board with a WD1015-JM, WD11C00-JU. WD10C20B-JH-05, AND WD2010BJM05-02

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/3/17 5:39 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:

> Does CHM have the e-mail on IDE history with Bill Frank, Tony Maggio and 
> Ralph Perry listed in the references?


[21] Tony Maggio and Ralph Perry email on CDC Wren II IDE Drive, December 15, 
2009

Tom probably has it, I don't recall seeing it.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 10/3/17 5:33 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


On 10/3/17 5:03 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:


Compaq and WD also worked with CDC to use the Wren II HH drive in the Compaq 
Deskpro 286. I found separate reports
confirming the Miniscribe HDD in the Portable II and the Wren II in a Compaq 
Deskpro 386 in 1986.

I have two of the CDC drives, pn 94208-51 date codes 8749 and 8750

also

http://s3.computerhistory.org/groups/compaq-conner-cp341-ide-ata-drive.pdf



I referred to 
http://chmss.wikifoundry.com/page/Compaq%2FConner+CP341+IDE%2FATA+Drive, 
which is a Wiki version of the same history.


Does CHM have the e-mail on IDE history with Bill Frank, Tony Maggio and 
Ralph Perry listed in the references?


alan

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 10/3/17 5:03 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:

> Compaq and WD also worked with CDC to use the Wren II HH drive in the Compaq 
> Deskpro 286. I found separate reports
> confirming the Miniscribe HDD in the Portable II and the Wren II in a Compaq 
> Deskpro 386 in 1986.

I have two of the CDC drives, pn 94208-51 date codes 8749 and 8750

also

http://s3.computerhistory.org/groups/compaq-conner-cp341-ide-ata-drive.pdf

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 10/3/17 3:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

The earliest use I can find of the "AT Attachment" terminology is the
X3T9 project proposal from late 1990 which eventually led to the
formation of the X3T10 group:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.90/90-058r2.txt


On Tue, 3 Oct 2017, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
As I previously posted, these minutes refer one of two CAM Committee 
meeting in May or Jun 1989 where it was announced that the "ATA 
document" was nearly complete:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.89/89-075r0.txt
I have found two independent sources that indicate a first draft of 
the document appeared in Mar 1989.


We would need to compare that with WD internal discussions, OR
compare public discussions.
ATA committee existed, and was working on a standard; then WD sold 
products; then ATA standard was formally released.



Comparing "FIRST"s in development, is not the same as comparing 
"FIRST"s in release or production.


There are plenty of other races, where one was first to be built, but 
a different one was first to be available.



My guess of the timeline, is that MANY people wanted the same idea. 
People in the standards committee(s) started to discuss it, while some 
drive engineers started to build them.

Were members of committee talking about it before WD spoke up?
Were WD engineers working on it before committee mentioned it?
Yes, to both.


I suggest that you read the narratives at the two links that I posted in 
my subsequent posting.


WD initialy made the controller boards. As noted elsewhere, they did not 
make HDDs themselves at that point. They shopped it around in late 1984 
and got interest from Compaq. According to the document that I am 
referencing, WD did a IDE-to-ST506 board that was used with Miniscribe 
10M and 20M ST506 drives in Compaq Portable IIs (announced Feb 1986). 
Compaq and WD also worked with CDC to use the Wren II HH drive in the 
Compaq Deskpro 286. I found separate reports confirming the Miniscribe 
HDD in the Portable II and the Wren II in a Compaq Deskpro 386 in 1986. 
There were also a number of Conner IDE HDDs (CP340 family) in 1987.  
These were all products released before the SCSI-2 CAM committee was 
formed. However, I have not found any contemporary documentation for any 
of them, so I can't determine whether the interface is called IDE in any 
of them.


alan


The standards committee(s) called it "AT attachment"; the WD engineers 
called it "IDE" NEITHER name was used publicly.  YET.


The committees started to draft standards.  WD started to market.

WD probably pushed the committee(s) to use WD's pinout and details.
Companies are ALWAYS pushing standards committees to do it THEIR way.

Motherboard makers started to call theirs "IDE", because calling them 
ATA might run afoul of the not-yet-released standard.  "ATA" was 
hardly a secret, but it wasn't "official" yet.


When the standard was released, the MB makers were already calling it 
"IDE", and that stuck, in spite of "ATA" becoming the "official" name 
and standard.



Q: was the card slot in the Poqet "PCMCIA"? ("People Can't Memorize 
Computer Industry Acronyms"  ("Personal Computer Memory Card Industry 
Association", for those who want more formality))
Maybe later ones were, but the first ones were just "card slot" "that 
happened to match PCMCIA when that came out"

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
>
> Q: was the card slot in the Poqet "PCMCIA"? ("People Can't Memorize
> Computer Industry Acronyms"  ("Personal Computer Memory Card Industry
> Association", for those who want more formality))
> Maybe later ones were, but the first ones were just "card slot" "that
> happened to match PCMCIA when that came out
>

PC Cards, defined by the PCMICA standards body, appeared to always be
called that. I did a lot of looking for oddball early systems and couldn't
find anything that was PC Card-ish but not actually a PC Card. The closest
was the MECIA controller that NEC used in their PC-9801 laptops which
limited severely what could or couldn't be mapped on very odd ways. (NEC
moved on to a standard PCI device by the time they did the PC-9821 ones). I
couldn't find any 486 or 386 laptop that had an expansion slot that wasn't
PCMCIA or something totally different. This was in the late 90's and early
2000's when I was the PC Card guy in FreeBSD... Of course, my inability to
find them on ebay or the like doesn't mean they didn't exist... I also had
trouble finding the IBM KING variation of the ExCa standard that Intel
implemented, but I know it must have existed because older PC Card code
supported it...

Warner

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

The earliest use I can find of the "AT Attachment" terminology is the
X3T9 project proposal from late 1990 which eventually led to the
formation of the X3T10 group:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.90/90-058r2.txt


On Tue, 3 Oct 2017, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
As I previously posted, these minutes refer one of two CAM Committee meeting 
in May or Jun 1989 where it was announced that the "ATA document" was nearly 
complete:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.89/89-075r0.txt
I have found two independent sources that indicate a first draft of the 
document appeared in Mar 1989.


We would need to compare that with WD internal discussions, OR
compare public discussions.
ATA committee existed, and was working on a standard; then WD sold 
products; then ATA standard was formally released.



Comparing "FIRST"s in development, is not the same as comparing 
"FIRST"s in release or production.


There are plenty of other races, where one was first to be built, but a 
different one was first to be available.



My guess of the timeline, is that MANY people wanted the same idea. 
People in the standards committee(s) started to discuss it, while some 
drive engineers started to build them.

Were members of committee talking about it before WD spoke up?
Were WD engineers working on it before committee mentioned it?
Yes, to both.

The standards committee(s) called it "AT attachment"; the WD engineers 
called it "IDE" NEITHER name was used publicly.  YET.


The committees started to draft standards.  WD started to market.

WD probably pushed the committee(s) to use WD's pinout and details.
Companies are ALWAYS pushing standards committees to do it THEIR way.

Motherboard makers started to call theirs "IDE", because calling them ATA 
might run afoul of the not-yet-released standard.  "ATA" was hardly a 
secret, but it wasn't "official" yet.


When the standard was released, the MB makers were already calling it 
"IDE", and that stuck, in spite of "ATA" becoming the "official" name and 
standard.



Q: was the card slot in the Poqet "PCMCIA"? ("People Can't Memorize 
Computer Industry Acronyms"  ("Personal Computer Memory Card Industry 
Association", for those who want more formality))
Maybe later ones were, but the first ones were just "card slot" "that 
happened to match PCMCIA when that came out"

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/3/17 12:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 10/03/2017 05:37 AM, wrco...@wrcooke.net wrote:


fwiw in the late 80s I was the service department at a small PC
store. I remember seeing these newfangled drives in Compaq
computers, but I don't remember exactly when.  Perhaps 88?  Wikipedia
backs me up that it was Compaq (with WD drives?) as the first large
customer.

Wikipedia is many times wrong, edit please.

Everyone seems to be calling the Compaq drives "Western Digital".  They
weren't WD--they were CDC Wren II HH drives with a WD controller
embedded.  WD didn't get into the drive business until much, much later.

Likely cause, they fact they used WD chipset (1100 series). so it must be WD
which was far from true.

I went back and checked my documents.   The ATA drive that I had was, in
fact, a Wren II.  For all I know, it was the same one that Compaq put in
its boxes, as I picked it up on the surplus market.

It was not a good drive--it failed within a year or so and I scrapped
it.  I understand that my experience with the drive was not unique.

I had three, two crapped fast and one has held up for years...  Then again
I have a Bigfoot 1gb drive that has been good too but that is unusual as 
well.


The market saw a lot of that like Segate ST3660, very bad!   The ST3660A
however was a good drive with better than average life.

That's very different from my experience with the FH Wren drives.   I've
still got a SCSI one installed and running in a 386 box.
Same here.  the worst drive was a WD 8gb scsi, failure date (note rate!) 
was
about one year after install in the server rack.  I had 5 fail and all 
got replaced

with Baracudas.

I ahve a few oddballs from Compaq (of the we own DEC era) hardware that
look like SCSI (50 pin) but are not.  They are 3.5" but fat.

Allison

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Adam Sampson via cctalk]

Tom Gardner via cctalk  writes:

> But again if anyone has any documents dating IDE in the 1980s I’d love
> to see them

Don't forget the Internet Archive's impressive collection of scanned
magazines for questions like this! There are several references in 1989
in Infoworld and similar periodicals.

The earliest I could find from a quick search is this ad from CompuAdd
Corporation in PC Magazine, December 27th 1988, listing PC clones with
"Integrated Drive Electronics fixed disk drive interface" and "IDE fixed
disk drive interface":
https://archive.org/stream/PC-Mag-1988-12-27#page/n227/mode/2up

The ad in the 1988-11-15 issue doesn't mention IDE, so it looks like
that's one of the first times CompuAdd thought it was useful for
marketing...

Cheers,

-- 
Adam Sampson  

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 10/3/17 11:40 AM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 18:56 +0100, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:

So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were
using the term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it
called anything else in that timeframe.

That pretty much matches my recollection also.

The earliest use I can find of the "AT Attachment" terminology is the
X3T9 project proposal from late 1990 which eventually led to the
formation of the X3T10 group:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.90/90-058r2.txt


As I previously posted, these minutes refer one of two CAM Committee 
meeting in May or Jun 1989 where it was announced that the "ATA 
document" was nearly complete:


http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.89/89-075r0.txt

I have found two independent sources that indicate a first draft of the 
document appeared in Mar 1989.


alan



p.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/03/2017 11:40 AM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 18:56 +0100, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: 
>> So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were 
>> using the term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it 
>> called anything else in that timeframe.
> 
> That pretty much matches my recollection also.

I'll have to dig out my own code ca. 1988 to see what I used in
comments.  I may not have even taken IDE into account as I already had
ESDI code handled--and, from a purely PC-side interface aspect, there's
not a lot of difference; i.e., both respond in the same way to the
IDENTIFY command.

But basically, the question boils down to "Vass you dere, shollie?"

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Phil Blundell via cctalk]

On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 18:56 +0100, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: 
> So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were 
> using the term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it 
> called anything else in that timeframe.

That pretty much matches my recollection also.

The earliest use I can find of the "AT Attachment" terminology is the
X3T9 project proposal from late 1990 which eventually led to the
formation of the X3T10 group:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.90/90-058r2.txt

p.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 03/10/2017 01:04, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

Unfortunately there is no documentation to support Pete's recollection - if 
there is any I would like to see it.


Well, actually, there is, though not for quite as early as I had those 
conversations.  The company I was referring to was HCCS Associates, and 
although I can't find a copyright date for their original software, I 
can find pictures of the interfaces, clearly labelled "IDE", and one 
version of the software, called "IDE Manager".  It's version 2.1, dated 
February 1990.  They used mostly, but not exclusively, Connor drives, by 
the way.

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#H
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/HCCS_IDE_A3000.html

Another I can find is another company who made an interface for a 
slightly later machine from the same family, and one version does carry 
a date, also 1990.

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/ICS_ideA.html

The Watford Electronics IDE interface (called WE-IDE) for the same 
series of machines was released about the same time.  The software is 
dated September 1989.  They used Western Digital drives, amongst others.

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#W

So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were 
using the term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it 
called anything else in that timeframe.



-Original Message-
From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:p...@dunnington.plus.com]



Nope.  I recall conversations with a small-scale developer in the UK who was 
creating addons and accessories for the company I worked for (Acorn
Computers) in 1987-1988, and he was touting IDE


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/03/2017 05:37 AM, wrco...@wrcooke.net wrote:

> fwiw in the late 80s I was the service department at a small PC 
> store. I remember seeing these newfangled drives in Compaq
> computers, but I don't remember exactly when.  Perhaps 88?  Wikipedia
> backs me up that it was Compaq (with WD drives?) as the first large
> customer.
Everyone seems to be calling the Compaq drives "Western Digital".  They
weren't WD--they were CDC Wren II HH drives with a WD controller
embedded.  WD didn't get into the drive business until much, much later.

I went back and checked my documents.   The ATA drive that I had was, in
fact, a Wren II.  For all I know, it was the same one that Compaq put in
its boxes, as I picked it up on the surplus market.

It was not a good drive--it failed within a year or so and I scrapped
it.  I understand that my experience with the drive was not unique.

That's very different from my experience with the FH Wren drives.   I've
still got a SCSI one installed and running in a 386 box.

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/02/2017 10:47 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:
> Nice find but still later than Mar 1989.

You must have missed my second post--January 31, 1989.

--Chuck

RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

Nice find but still later than Mar 1989.

 

Since Compuadd didn’t make drives it does raise the question of whose drives 
were in there.

 

Thanks

 

Tom

 

From: wrco...@wrcooke.net [mailto:wrco...@wrcooke.net] 
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 5:48 PM
To: Tom Gardner; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM 
drives on a IBM PC]

 

>From the Oct 2 1989 Infoworld (here 
>https://books.google.com/books?id=vTAEMBAJ 
>
> 
>=PT6=PT6=compaq+brochure=bl=OFrm0z4OIF=ngg5Ojsj-ABUs7YeAEQ48BegRUg=en=X=0ahUKEwjKsqy9nNPWAhXFz4MKHSAiCkIQ6AEIVjAM#v=onepage=ide=false)

 

"All five Compuadd systems include an ide hard drive and floppy disk 
controllers"

 

Will

 

On October 2, 2017 at 8:04 PM Tom Gardner via cctalk  
wrote:

Unfortunately there is no documentation to support Pete's recollection - if 
there is any I would like to see it.

For example:

· WD's Fall 1988 Corporate Product Overview does not use the terms IDE, 
Intelligent d..., or Integrated d... Similarly, WD's October 23, 1989 press 
release " WESTERN DIGITAL

ANNOUNCES VOLUME SHIPMENT OF ITS NEW AT-COMPATIBLE, 3.5-INCH INTELLIGENT 
DRIVES," does not use the acronym IDE or any of its meanings.

· Conner as late as 1990 was not using the acronym IDE or any of its meanings 
in its product literature.

· The MiniScribe 1988 announcement of its 8000 series did not use the acronym 
IDE or any of its meanings

So if WD, Conner and possibly MiniScribe weren’t using the term in 1989 I have 
a hard time accepting it's common use that early.

But again if anyone has any documents dating IDE in the 1980s I’d love to see 
them

Tom

-Original Message-
From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:p...@dunnington.plus.com]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 8:29 AM
To: Tom Gardner via cctalk
Subject: Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM 
drives on a IBM PC]

On 01/10/2017 20:46, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

As best I can tell WD began publically using the term IDE for its

drives sometime around 1990

Nope. I recall conversations with a small-scale developer in the UK who was 
creating addons and accessories for the company I worked for (Acorn

Computers) in 1987-1988, and he was touting IDE as best improvement (because 
simpler and cheaper to interface) on ST506/ST412 interface drives for the hard 
drive upgrades he was about to market. I recall having to ask what IDE stood 
for, at the time. So it must have been in common use, at least amongst 
developers, by then. By 1989 there were more people using "IDE" - by that name 
- than anything else in the markets I was involved in.

--

Pete

Pete Turnbull

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Here's one a bit earlier: Jan 31, 1989, for a CompuAdd 286 machine with
on-board IDE interface:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pMnJ2MkrjNgC=PA161=Built-in+IDE+interface=en=X=0ahUKEwiYnpG0yNPWAhVSy2MKHXdMA4kQ6AEIXTAI#v=onepage=Built-in%20IDE%20interface=true

Which means that the ad copy was probably developed during 1988.

I'm trying to determine the date of the first IDE card.   It'd have to
be much earlier than the CompuAdd board, as I remember the initial ones
only had a single cable for 2 drives--no secondary interface.

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

See:

https://books.google.com/books?id=HXDkCoqMiVIC=PP399=IDE+hard+disk+interface+1989=en=X=0ahUKEwj01P2UmdPWAhUJhlQKHTBVD9IQ6AEILTAB#v=snippet=IDE%20hard%20disk%20interface%201989=true

For a CompuAdd 1989 ad that offers a dual IDE hard disk interface on
their motherboards.

I didn't even bother searching 1900 issues.

I remember getting the Wren III and reading in the manual "ATA" and my
reaction was "Wuzzat?  Oh, they mean IDE."

--Chuck

RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

Unfortunately there is no documentation to support Pete's recollection - if 
there is any I would like to see it.

 

For example:

· WD's Fall 1988 Corporate Product Overview does not use the terms IDE, 
Intelligent d..., or Integrated d...  Similarly, WD's October 23, 1989 press 
release " WESTERN DIGITAL 

ANNOUNCES VOLUME SHIPMENT OF ITS NEW AT-COMPATIBLE, 3.5-INCH INTELLIGENT 
DRIVES,"  does not use the acronym IDE or any of its meanings.

· Conner as late as 1990 was not using the acronym IDE or any of its 
meanings in its product literature.

· The MiniScribe 1988 announcement of its 8000 series did not use the 
acronym IDE or any of its meanings

 

So if WD, Conner and possibly MiniScribe weren’t using the term in 1989 I have 
a hard time accepting it's common use that early.

 

But again if anyone has any documents dating IDE in the 1980s I’d love to see 
them

 

Tom

 

-Original Message-
From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:p...@dunnington.plus.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 8:29 AM
To: Tom Gardner via cctalk
Subject: Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM 
drives on a IBM PC]

 

On 01/10/2017 20:46, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

 

> As best I can tell WD began publically using the term IDE for its 

> drives sometime around 1990

 

Nope.  I recall conversations with a small-scale developer in the UK who was 
creating addons and accessories for the company I worked for (Acorn

Computers) in 1987-1988, and he was touting IDE as best improvement (because 
simpler and cheaper to interface) on ST506/ST412 interface drives for the hard 
drive upgrades he was about to market.  I recall having to ask what IDE stood 
for, at the time.  So it must have been in common use, at least amongst 
developers, by then.  By 1989 there were more people using "IDE" - by that name 
- than anything else in the markets I was involved in.

 

--

Pete

Pete Turnbull

 

RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

Sorry for the typo, I typed 6 where I should have typed 9, as in 1969 when I 
meant 1989.  But my 20 years typo doesn’t change a thing. L

 

Chuck’s old Wren III supports the point. Wren III’s began shipping in the late 
80s and so his recollection (if correct) that  ‘ the interface is called "ATA", 
with no mention of "IDE" ’ suggests at least Imprimis wasn’t using IDE at that 
time but was using ATA.

 

Porter’s Disk/Trend doesn’t mention IDE until its 1992 edition; its 1988 
edition identifies 14 manufacturers of drives having what he called a “PC AT” 
interface.   As I said, I think the term IDE came into public usage from WD in 
1991 or 1992.  

 

I don’t think any digging is necessary but if I had to I suppose I could go to 
the Computer History Museum and pull up Porter’s files for the early ATA drive 
manufacturers and see what term their literature uses.

 

Tom

 

-Original Message-
From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:ccl...@sydex.com] 
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2017 12:59 PM
To: Tom Gardner via cctalk
Subject: Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM 
drives on a IBM PC]

 

On 10/01/2017 12:46 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

> I've looked for but cannot find any WD or Compaq documents publically 

> using IDE to describe what ultimately issued as ATA-1.  My search 

> included various Compaq maintenance manuals.  The earliest public use 

> of ATA and AT attachment that I can find is March 1989 [1969] at the CAM 

> committee draft standard long before IDE was linuga franca for these 

> drives.  The earliest public disclosure of the interface that I can 

> find is revision IV to the Conner CP3022 specification dated Feb 1988; 

> it doesn t name the interface other than in terms of  task file 

> emulation.   It is likely that such documents existed from Conner 

> prior to Feb 1988, perhaps as early as shipping the CP344 in 4Q86.

> My point is the interface was public before it was named.

> 

> My recollection (possibly flawed) is WD tried to have the responsible 

> committee change the name to IDE and failed.

> 

> I do have a confidential WD document from 1985 [1965] which does use the term 

> IDE for "Integrated Drive Electronics" referring to their chips, a 

> drive built with these chips was called an "Integrated Drive" or an 

> ID.

> 

> The earliest advertisements and specifications for what we would now 

> call ATA-1 drives from Conner, MiniScribe and Quantum did not use 

> either the term IDE or ATA.  I have a list of terms used if anyone 

> cares.

> 

> As best I can tell WD began publically using the term IDE for its 

> drives sometime around 1990 - if anyone can find a public usage prior 

> to March 1989 of IDE to describe what became ATA-1  I'd really like to 

> see it.

> 

> The CAM and ANSI committees have since March 1989 [1969] defined ATA == AT 

> Attachment and NEVER used "Advanced Technology" as an acronym for AT 

> in any standard or draft including the one cited below!  There are

> 134 possible definitions <  
> https://www.acronymfinder.com/AT.html>  of 

>  AT,  including for example,  Appropriate Technology sure the 

> connection to IBM s PC/AT  is obvious, but the authors, editors and 

> reviewers of the standards never meant it to mean  Advanced 

> Technology  so I suggest we respect their definition and not leap to 

> an obvious but incorrect conclusion.

 

Tom, I think your dates are about 20 years early.

 

I do have an old CDC Wren III half-height manual where the interface is called 
"ATA", with no mention of "IDE".  Even then, we still referred to

the drives as "IDE".   That term had to come from somewhere.

 

So perhaps some digging is in order.

 

--Chuck

 

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/02/2017 10:03 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:

> Here is a complete quote from the minutes:
> "Jim McGrath of Quantum defined his company's interest as being
> primarily in the ability to embed SCSI into a drive without there being
> a physical SCSI bus present. He described some problems of this
> environment, with references to the PC AT bus in particular. Jim
> believes that the greatest benefit of the CAM will come from a "severe
> pruning of SCSI functionality in order to meet the goal of a precise,
> simple, software interface."

While ATA was codified by the CAM working group, one should not be under
the impression that CAM was limited to any particular physical interface.

CAM stands for "Common Access Method" and is applicable to a number of
physical interfaces, including SCSI.   Future Domain, for example,
patterned their drivers along CAM conventions, using CCB (CAM control
blocks).  Adaptec, on the other hand, perferred ASPI.  Of the two, CAM
is far more flexible and varied.  After Adaptec acquired FD, they
provided a "middle" driver to convert ASPI calls to CAM.

Just saying...

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 10/2/17 11:34 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote:

On 10/02/2017 10:03 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:


Here is a complete quote from the minutes:
"Jim McGrath of Quantum defined his company's interest as being
primarily in the ability to embed SCSI into a drive without there being
a physical SCSI bus present. He described some problems of this
environment, with references to the PC AT bus in particular. Jim
believes that the greatest benefit of the CAM will come from a "severe
pruning of SCSI functionality in order to meet the goal of a precise,
simple, software interface."

While ATA was codified by the CAM working group, one should not be under
the impression that CAM was limited to any particular physical interface.

CAM stands for "Common Access Method" and is applicable to a number of
physical interfaces, including SCSI.   Future Domain, for example,
patterned their drivers along CAM conventions, using CCB (CAM control
blocks).  Adaptec, on the other hand, perferred ASPI.  Of the two, CAM
is far more flexible and varied.  After Adaptec acquired FD, they
provided a "middle" driver to convert ASPI calls to CAM.

Just saying...

FWIW I included the full quote from the minutes as elaboration on my 
summary since someone asked a question related to it.


I used to work on SATA and wrote a brief history of the evolution of 
disk interfaces to present to new college grad hires. When someone else 
brought the topic of the origin of the phrases, it got me wondering 
specifically who came up with "AT Attachment", partly since I indirectly 
knew Bob Snively.


alan

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Jon Elson via cctech 
wrote:

> On 10/02/2017 08:29 AM, allison via cctech wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It was price...  ATA-IDE was cheaper and PC industry was working hard to
>> push the price down.
>> SCSI always remained more costly.
>>
>> Yes.  I think there were royalties to pay for a true SCSI drive. Anyway,
> there was a VERY significant price
> difference between early IDE and SCSI drives.  Several hundred $ for a
> similar capacity drive.
>

The difference has persisted to this day. SCSI tags are deeper than NCQ for
ATA. The error reporting from SCSI is much richer than you get from ATA. In
general, reliability is better for SAS drives than for SATA drives, and the
performance variations you see in SATA have a higher magnitude than the SAS
drives.

ATA was always meant to get bits to the user at a lower cost w/o solving
all the hard problems SCSI tried to solve.

Warner

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 10/2/17 5:22 AM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote:

On 10/02/2017 01:46 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:
There was a call to form the CAM (Common Access Method) Committee of 
X3T9.2

(SCSI-2) on 30 Sept 1988 and they first met on 19 Oct 1988. The primary
goal was to come up with a SCSI subset to facilitate it support in 
multiple

OSs and BIOS on PCs. At the first meeting, two items mentioned in the
minutes seem relevant. 1. Jim McGrath of Quantum was interested in
embedding SCSI in the drive without a physical SCSI bus and described
problems with reference to the PC/AT.


Does anyone know why IDE/ATA even came about? I mean, why SCSI wasn't 
used? It would have been an established standard by then, the drive 
complexity seems comparable to IDE/ATA (i.e. intelligent commands over 
a parallel bus), and SCSI controllers can be extremely simple - just a 
handful of LS logic ICs - unless you want to add loads of command 
queuing and such (again, comparable to IDE)


Did it simply come down to pressure from vendors, wanting to 
distinguish between expensive workstation-class drives and something 
cheaper which could be associated with the lowly PC?


Here is a complete quote from the minutes:
"Jim McGrath of Quantum defined his company's interest as being 
primarily in the ability to embed SCSI into a drive without there being 
a physical SCSI bus present. He described some problems of this 
environment, with references to the PC AT bus in particular. Jim 
believes that the greatest benefit of the CAM will come from a "severe 
pruning of SCSI functionality in order to meet the goal of a precise, 
simple, software interface."


alan




cheers

Jules

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 10/02/2017 09:04 AM, allison via cctech wrote:



On 10/2/17 9:40 AM, william degnan wrote:



ATA-IDE and SCSI (OK SASI) are about the same age but 
had

different adoption and growth rates.

Earliest SASI/SCSI was AmproLB+ and Visual 1050 with 
adaptor.  I

have both with hard disks.
FYI the Z80 powered AMPROLB+ was 1984 introduction.


The Commodore D9060/D9090 pre-dates these and was a SASI 
derivative, right?  Not that it matters which was first, 
but just wanted to mention the CBM hard drive too. I have 
worked with the Visual and CBM drives, but never seen the 
AMPRO.



Hi Bill,

I used those as I knew the dates well having them since new.

Ampro was a basic 64K Z80 system with mini (5.25) or 
micro(3.5) inch floppy interface and if purchased the 5380 
parallel/SCSI/SASI adaptor chip.  With it you could use 
the varios boards (Adaptec or Xybec) and the Shugart 20mb 
SASI drive with the existing software supplied.  I modded 
the BIOS to adapt it for a Fujitsu 45mb 3.5" SCSI drive a 
few years later. and it would work with most current 
generation SCSI-1 drives save for partitioning and 
initializing.


The visual was actually older and used TTL to create SASI 
(scsi look alike) bus and the same adaptors

and drives to complete the hard disk side like the Ampro.

I still feel the SCSI bus was inspired by IEE488 (GPIB).

Nope, inspired by IBM selector channel bus.  This was stated 
in an early SASI or SCSI document, and the
names of the signals are pretty close to the signal names on 
the tag cable for a selector channel.


I bought a Memorex 10 MB drive and SASI adaptor on an 
introductory deal in a magazine.  This was in about 
1980-1982.  I had it on my Z-80 CP/M system.


Jon

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 10/02/2017 08:29 AM, allison via cctech wrote:



It was price...  ATA-IDE was cheaper and PC industry was 
working hard to push the price down.

SCSI always remained more costly.

Yes.  I think there were royalties to pay for a true SCSI 
drive. Anyway, there was a VERY significant price
difference between early IDE and SCSI drives.  Several 
hundred $ for a similar capacity drive.


Jon

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 01/10/2017 20:46, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

As best I can tell WD began publically using the term IDE for its drives sometime around 1990 


Nope.  I recall conversations with a small-scale developer in the UK who 
was creating addons and accessories for the company I worked for (Acorn 
Computers) in 1987-1988, and he was touting IDE as best improvement 
(because simpler and cheaper to interface) on ST506/ST412 interface 
drives for the hard drive upgrades he was about to market.  I recall 
having to ask what IDE stood for, at the time.  So it must have been in 
common use, at least amongst developers, by then.  By 1989 there were 
more people using "IDE" - by that name - than anything else in the 
markets I was involved in.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Alan Hightower via cctalk]

 

On 2017-10-02 08:22, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: 

> I mean, why SCSI wasn't used? It would have been an established standard by 
> then, the drive complexity seems comparable to IDE/ATA (i.e. intelligent 
> commands over a parallel bus), and SCSI controllers can be extremely simple - 
> just a handful of LS logic ICs - unless you want to add loads of command 
> queuing and such (again, comparable to IDE)

The simple fact IDE is a single master to indexed slave only interaction
vs a SCSI conversation where each ID must be both an initiator and
respondent on a contentious shared bus separates the complexity quite a
bit. PIO IDE controllers can be just a few bus buffers and an address
decoder. PIO IDE slaves only have to decode a register address and
synchronously return 16-bits at a time and only while selected by a
simple strobe. 

-Alan 
 

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 2, 2017, at 8:22 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know why IDE/ATA even came about? I mean, why SCSI wasn't used? 
> It would have been an established standard by then, the drive complexity 
> seems comparable to IDE/ATA (i.e. intelligent commands over a parallel bus), 
> and SCSI controllers can be extremely simple - just a handful of LS logic ICs 
> - unless you want to add loads of command queuing and such (again, comparable 
> to IDE)
> 
> Did it simply come down to pressure from vendors, wanting to distinguish 
> between expensive workstation-class drives and something cheaper which could 
> be associated with the lowly PC?

Comparable complexity, I don't think so.  ATA, until about 2002, had no command 
queueing.  You could issue exactly one command which the drive would then 
execute, and after completing that it was willing to accept another command.  
Semantically ATA looks like the RK05 or RP04 disk API.

SCSI is an entirely different beast.  It has command queueing, and logical 
addressing.  It feels more like MSCP.

Over time, especially once "native command queueing" was added to ATA, it 
started to look more like SCSI and closer in complexity, but that clearly was 
not the case early on.

As for differentiation, that's plausible too.  This has been done for a long 
time, consider that fibre channel and SCSI continued to be used for high 
performance drives even after SATA started to appear in enterprise grade high 
density lower speed drives.  There wasn't any technical reason for associating 
SCSI or FC with 15k RPM drives, or SATA with 7200 RPM drives.

paul

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 10/02/2017 08:29 AM, allison via cctech wrote:



On 10/2/17 8:22 AM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote:

On 10/02/2017 01:46 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:

There was a call to form the CAM (Common Access Method) Committee of X3T9.2
(SCSI-2) on 30 Sept 1988 and they first met on 19 Oct 1988. The primary
goal was to come up with a SCSI subset to facilitate it support in multiple
OSs and BIOS on PCs. At the first meeting, two items mentioned in the
minutes seem relevant. 1. Jim McGrath of Quantum was interested in
embedding SCSI in the drive without a physical SCSI bus and described
problems with reference to the PC/AT.


So in effect the IDE was a minimal interface that would interface to the
computer bus
with no more than buffering.


True, I suppose the command structure was more complex with SCSI. It's a 
shame though, it would have been nice if SCSI had been the PC standard, 
what with the large number of devices available, more flexibility, and 
performance potential.



Early SCSI disks
were MFM drives with Adaptec or Xybec host boards (SCSI to MFM, local cpu
was Z80 on the adaptor).


Xebec... but yeah, and I forgot that they used a Z80 (I was thinking it was 
some Intel 80xx thing). I don't know if Xebec actually made a SCSI one, I 
think they may all have been SASI (at least the ones that I've used). I 
remember there was a little schematic in the back of the manual for a 
suitable controller.


Adaptec, Emulex and OMTI all made similar bridge boards... and there were 
probably others, too.


cheers

Jules

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/2/17 10:13 AM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote:

On 10/02/2017 08:29 AM, allison via cctech wrote:



On 10/2/17 8:22 AM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote:

On 10/02/2017 01:46 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:
There was a call to form the CAM (Common Access Method) Committee 
of X3T9.2
(SCSI-2) on 30 Sept 1988 and they first met on 19 Oct 1988. The 
primary
goal was to come up with a SCSI subset to facilitate it support in 
multiple

OSs and BIOS on PCs. At the first meeting, two items mentioned in the
minutes seem relevant. 1. Jim McGrath of Quantum was interested in
embedding SCSI in the drive without a physical SCSI bus and described
problems with reference to the PC/AT.


So in effect the IDE was a minimal interface that would interface to the
computer bus
with no more than buffering.


True, I suppose the command structure was more complex with SCSI. It's 
a shame though, it would have been nice if SCSI had been the PC 
standard, what with the large number of devices available, more 
flexibility, and performance potential.


It was/is widely used in PCs.  It put Adaptec on the map.  Servers and 
high end systems

commonly used it especially for early shadow and RAID systems.


Early SCSI disks
were MFM drives with Adaptec or Xybec host boards (SCSI to MFM, local 
cpu

was Z80 on the adaptor).


Xebec... but yeah, and I forgot that they used a Z80 (I was thinking 
it was some Intel 80xx thing). 

Later versions of bridge boards had the 8088 or 80188 16bitter.

I don't know if Xebec actually made a SCSI one, I think they may all 
have been SASI (at least the ones that I've used). I remember there 
was a little schematic in the back of the manual for a suitable 
controller.


Some were SASI and later firmware was SCSI...  Only difference as I had 
both.


Adaptec, Emulex and OMTI all made similar bridge boards... and there 
were probably others, too.



Yes, them too.

Oddly the first VAX to use SCSI or SCSI like was uVAX-2000 as the extra 
box with TK50 Tape

used that.

Allison

cheers

Jules

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/2/17 9:40 AM, william degnan wrote:



ATA-IDE and SCSI (OK SASI) are about the same age but had
different adoption and growth rates.

Earliest SASI/SCSI was AmproLB+ and Visual 1050 with adaptor.  I
have both with hard disks.
FYI the Z80 powered AMPROLB+ was 1984 introduction.


The Commodore D9060/D9090 pre-dates these and was a SASI derivative, 
right?  Not that it matters which was first, but just wanted to 
mention the CBM hard drive too. I have worked with the Visual and CBM 
drives, but never seen the AMPRO.



Hi Bill,

I used those as I knew the dates well having them since new.

Ampro was a basic 64K Z80 system with mini (5.25) or micro(3.5) inch 
floppy interface and if purchased the 5380 parallel/SCSI/SASI adaptor 
chip.  With it you could use the varios boards (Adaptec or Xybec) and 
the Shugart 20mb SASI drive with the existing software supplied.  I 
modded the BIOS to adapt it for a Fujitsu 45mb 3.5" SCSI drive a few 
years later. and it would work with most current generation SCSI-1 
drives save for partitioning and initializing.


The visual was actually older and used TTL to create SASI (scsi look 
alike) bus and the same adaptors

and drives to complete the hard disk side like the Ampro.

I still feel the SCSI bus was inspired by IEE488 (GPIB).

In the systems world my first SCSI on VAX was microVAX ba123 (uVAXIIgpx) 
with CMD controller
and a RD54(MFM 150mb) on an Adaptec Controller and later replaced with 3 
RZ56s (drive with SCSI internal).


Memries of the first SASI/SCSI was 33 years ago for Me, and VAX SCSI was 
1995 as that's when I got

the CMD controller.

Allison

Bill

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 10/02/2017 01:46 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:

There was a call to form the CAM (Common Access Method) Committee of X3T9.2
(SCSI-2) on 30 Sept 1988 and they first met on 19 Oct 1988. The primary
goal was to come up with a SCSI subset to facilitate it support in multiple
OSs and BIOS on PCs. At the first meeting, two items mentioned in the
minutes seem relevant. 1. Jim McGrath of Quantum was interested in
embedding SCSI in the drive without a physical SCSI bus and described
problems with reference to the PC/AT.


Does anyone know why IDE/ATA even came about? I mean, why SCSI wasn't used? 
It would have been an established standard by then, the drive complexity 
seems comparable to IDE/ATA (i.e. intelligent commands over a parallel 
bus), and SCSI controllers can be extremely simple - just a handful of LS 
logic ICs - unless you want to add loads of command queuing and such 
(again, comparable to IDE)


Did it simply come down to pressure from vendors, wanting to distinguish 
between expensive workstation-class drives and something cheaper which 
could be associated with the lowly PC?


cheers

Jules

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/2/17 8:22 AM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote:

On 10/02/2017 01:46 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:
There was a call to form the CAM (Common Access Method) Committee of 
X3T9.2

(SCSI-2) on 30 Sept 1988 and they first met on 19 Oct 1988. The primary
goal was to come up with a SCSI subset to facilitate it support in 
multiple

OSs and BIOS on PCs. At the first meeting, two items mentioned in the
minutes seem relevant. 1. Jim McGrath of Quantum was interested in
embedding SCSI in the drive without a physical SCSI bus and described
problems with reference to the PC/AT.


Does anyone know why IDE/ATA even came about? I mean, why SCSI wasn't 
used? It would have been an established standard by then, the drive 
complexity seems comparable to IDE/ATA (i.e. intelligent commands over 
a parallel bus), and SCSI controllers can be extremely simple - just a 
handful of LS logic ICs - unless you want to add loads of command 
queuing and such (again, comparable to IDE)


Roughly the same at the complexity level but SCSI was more costly as it 
was a defined bus
and did not include the actual device level hardware which SCSI disks 
needed same as IDE.
The ya but was to get SCSI to go faster it needed a complex chip in the 
computer (anyone

remember the NCR 5380 and its kin...) that was costly and PITA to program.

So in effect the IDE was a minimal interface that would interface to the 
computer bus
with no more than buffering.  SCSI required translation from PC buses to 
SCSI BUS and then
from SCSI to IDE(essentially the same electronics with SCSI bus 
interface).  IDE was always a
register interface where SCSI was a protocol that needed a smarter 
target.  Early SCSI disks
were MFM drives with Adaptec or Xybec host boards (SCSI to MFM, local 
cpu was Z80 on the adaptor).


ATA-IDE and SCSI (OK SASI) are about the same age but had different 
adoption and growth rates.


Earliest SASI/SCSI was AmproLB+ and Visual 1050 with adaptor.  I have 
both with hard disks.

FYI the Z80 powered AMPROLB+ was 1984 introduction.
Did it simply come down to pressure from vendors, wanting to 
distinguish between expensive workstation-class drives and something 
cheaper which could be associated with the lowly PC?


It was price...  ATA-IDE was cheaper and PC industry was working hard to 
push the price down.

SCSI always remained more costly.

Allison

cheers

Jules

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[william degnan via cctalk]

>
>
> ATA-IDE and SCSI (OK SASI) are about the same age but had different
> adoption and growth rates.
>
> Earliest SASI/SCSI was AmproLB+ and Visual 1050 with adaptor.  I have both
> with hard disks.
> FYI the Z80 powered AMPROLB+ was 1984 introduction.


The Commodore D9060/D9090 pre-dates these and was a SASI derivative,
right?  Not that it matters which was first, but just wanted to mention the
CBM hard drive too.  I have worked with the Visual and CBM drives, but
never seen the AMPRO.

Bill

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 10/1/17 1:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote:

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:
I've looked for but cannot find any WD or Compaq documents publically 
using IDE to describe what ultimately issued as ATA-1.  My search 
included various Compaq maintenance manuals.


Thank you very much for doing those searches!
My first encounter with one was in a Compaq, without having previously 
heard any mention that they were going to do anything like that.  And 
no prior mention of "IDE" NOR "ATA".

It was a surprise, but seemed to make sense.

So, the PR and naming bodies of the relevant companies let it go into 
use without massive prior bragging!  I hadn't been paying close 
attention to CDC nor Connor, but I seemed to have missed whatever WD 
or Compaq had advertised about it at Comdex.


And then, later, I heard "IDE", before I had heard "ATA", but that was 
presumably just due to the circles that I dealt with.



The earliest public use of ATA and AT attachment that I can find is 
March 1969 at the CAM committee 

Would that be 1989?

My recollection (possibly flawed) is WD tried to have the responsible 
committee change the name to IDE and failed.


especially interesting
Standards committees are always being pressured by individual 
companies to use the specific structures and terminologies of those 
companies.


I do have a confidential WD document from 1965 which does use the 
term IDE for "Integrated Drive Electronics" referring to their chips, 
a drive built with these chips was called an "Integrated Drive" or an 
ID.

Would that be 1985?

The CAM and ANSI committees have since March 1969 defined ATA == AT 

Would that be 1989?
(In 1969, it would certainly NOT be a reference to the IBM PC/AT (5170)!)


I did my own searching.

There was a call to form the CAM (Common Access Method) Committee of 
X3T9.2 (SCSI-2) on 30 Sept 1988 and they first met on 19 Oct 1988. The 
primary goal was to come up with a SCSI subset to facilitate it support 
in multiple OSs and BIOS on PCs. At the first meeting, two items 
mentioned in the minutes seem relevant. 1. Jim McGrath of Quantum was 
interested in embedding SCSI in the drive without a physical SCSI bus 
and described problems with reference to the PC/AT. 2. Bob Snively of 
Adaptec is described as indicating that everyone at the meeting has the 
problem of "attaching to systems" and this aspect of the committee's 
work was described as "attachment problems".


Unfortunately, I can't find CAM Committee minutes after that first 
meeting. If anyone here is a member of ANSI Technical Committee T13, 
perhaps they can check to see if the minutes or early drafts of ATA 
documents hidden away in the member only areas of the web site.


The next thing that I found was June 1989 X3T9.2 minutes indicating the 
the CAM Committee had almost completed the "ATA document". It mentioned 
two CAM Committee meetings (10 May 1989 and 8 June 1989), but was not 
clear on at which one of those meetings it was reported on the status of 
the ATA document. I read somewhere unofficial that the first draft of 
the ATA document came out in Mar 1989.


alan

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/01/2017 04:55 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 10/01/2017 02:58 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> On 10/01/2017 12:46 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:
>>> I've looked for but cannot find any WD or Compaq documents publically
>>> using IDE to describe what ultimately issued as ATA-1.  My search
>>> included various Compaq maintenance manuals.  The earliest public use
>>> of ATA and AT attachment that I can find is March 1969 at the CAM
>>> committee draft standard long before IDE was linuga franca for these
>>> drives.  The earliest public disclosure of the interface that I can
>>> find is revision IV to the Conner CP3022 specification dated Feb
>>> 1988; it doesn’t name the interface other than in terms of “task file
>>> emulation.”  It is likely that such documents existed from Conner
>>> prior to Feb 1988, perhaps as early as shipping the CP344 in 4Q86.
>>> My point is the interface was public before it was named.
>>>
>>> My recollection (possibly flawed) is WD tried to have the responsible
>>> committee change the name to IDE and failed.
>>>
>>> I do have a confidential WD document from 1965 which does use the
>>> term IDE for "Integrated Drive Electronics" referring to their chips,
>>> a drive built with these chips was called an "Integrated Drive" or an
>>> ID.
>>>
WD didn't exist till sometime after 1970.  You must mean 1985.


>>> The earliest advertisements and specifications for what we would now
>>> call ATA-1 drives from Conner, MiniScribe and Quantum did not use
>>> either the term IDE or ATA.  I have a list of terms used if anyone
>>> cares.
>>>
>>> As best I can tell WD began publically using the term IDE for its
>>> drives sometime around 1990 - if anyone can find a public usage prior
>>> to March 1989 of IDE to describe what became ATA-1  I'd really like
>>> to see it.
>>>
Their first parts were UARTs and maybe USARTs.However ATA is before 1989
just not a lot more before.

>>> The CAM and ANSI committees have since March 1969 defined ATA == AT
>>> Attachment and NEVER used "Advanced Technology" as an acronym for AT
>>> in any standard or draft including the one cited below!  There are
>>> 134 possible definitions   of
>>> “AT,” including for example, “Appropriate Technology”  – sure the
>>> connection to IBM’s PC/AT  is obvious, but the authors, editors and
>>> reviewers of the standards never meant it to mean “Advanced
>>> Technology” so I suggest we respect their definition and not leap to
>>> an obvious but incorrect conclusion.
>> Tom, I think your dates are about 20 years early.
>>
Since the PC that is the IBM first is 1981 late summer intro before that
is error.

During the prior to time IE pre IBM PC the world was Apple II, CP/M
(8080,8085,Z80)
and machines like the TRS80.  Disks were expensive and rare For floppies
and hard
disks were EXPENSIVE and even more rare.  I was bleeding edge with a
Teltek and ST506
in 1980(summer) and it was over 1K in hardware then never minding
integrating
it myself with CP/M 2.2.  The then current disks were removable packs
(10mb and over 5K$)
and 4mb and larger 8" disk systems using SA4000 drives like Morrow and
others.  In
two years that would change greatly and disk sizes would be
multiplying.  It was about 1987
when PCs started to run larger than 30mb.

Allison
>>
> 1969??  Yes, sounds REALLY early to me, too.  The 8080, or even the
> 4004, had not been developed yet!
> The only "PC" was the Biomedical Computer Lab's Programmed Console (to
> avoid the use of the
> word "computer" which set the corporate suite in a tizzy) which was a
> 12-bit computer built into a desk,
> descended from the LINC.  Mostly used for radiation treatment planning.
>
> In 1969, the only chips you could buy were SMALL scale integration, a
> few gates or FF to a package,
> in RTL, DTL, and ECL.  TTL was just coming out in 1969-1970.
>
> Western Digital was formed in 1970.  I got seriously into the
> minicomputer arena in about 1973 with
> Data General and DEC PDP-11 systems.  Small disks like the Diablo
> cartridge drive and larger ones that were essentially plug-compatible
> IBM 2314-type drives were available in the early 1970's.  These had
> very little electronics
> in the drive.  A little bit of head seek logic and read and write
> amps, that was about it.
>
> Jon

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Doing some quick research, the governing patent seems to be

https://www.google.com/patents/US5295247

filed in 1992, where the term IDE is used exclusively.

Further, PC Magazine has ads for IDE interface motherboards in early 1989.

Neither mentions ATA.

If desired, I'll keep digging.

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 10/01/2017 02:58 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 10/01/2017 12:46 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

I've looked for but cannot find any WD or Compaq documents publically
using IDE to describe what ultimately issued as ATA-1.  My search
included various Compaq maintenance manuals.  The earliest public use
of ATA and AT attachment that I can find is March 1969 at the CAM
committee draft standard long before IDE was linuga franca for these
drives.  The earliest public disclosure of the interface that I can
find is revision IV to the Conner CP3022 specification dated Feb
1988; it doesn’t name the interface other than in terms of “task file
emulation.”  It is likely that such documents existed from Conner
prior to Feb 1988, perhaps as early as shipping the CP344 in 4Q86.
My point is the interface was public before it was named.

My recollection (possibly flawed) is WD tried to have the responsible
committee change the name to IDE and failed.

I do have a confidential WD document from 1965 which does use the
term IDE for "Integrated Drive Electronics" referring to their chips,
a drive built with these chips was called an "Integrated Drive" or an
ID.

The earliest advertisements and specifications for what we would now
call ATA-1 drives from Conner, MiniScribe and Quantum did not use
either the term IDE or ATA.  I have a list of terms used if anyone
cares.

As best I can tell WD began publically using the term IDE for its
drives sometime around 1990 - if anyone can find a public usage prior
to March 1989 of IDE to describe what became ATA-1  I'd really like
to see it.

The CAM and ANSI committees have since March 1969 defined ATA == AT
Attachment and NEVER used "Advanced Technology" as an acronym for AT
in any standard or draft including the one cited below!  There are
134 possible definitions   of
“AT,” including for example, “Appropriate Technology”  – sure the
connection to IBM’s PC/AT  is obvious, but the authors, editors and
reviewers of the standards never meant it to mean “Advanced
Technology” so I suggest we respect their definition and not leap to
an obvious but incorrect conclusion.

Tom, I think your dates are about 20 years early.


1969??  Yes, sounds REALLY early to me, too.  The 8080, or 
even the 4004, had not been developed yet!
The only "PC" was the Biomedical Computer Lab's Programmed 
Console (to avoid the use of the
word "computer" which set the corporate suite in a tizzy) 
which was a 12-bit computer built into a desk,
descended from the LINC.  Mostly used for radiation 
treatment planning.


In 1969, the only chips you could buy were SMALL scale 
integration, a few gates or FF to a package,

in RTL, DTL, and ECL.  TTL was just coming out in 1969-1970.

Western Digital was formed in 1970.  I got seriously into 
the minicomputer arena in about 1973 with
Data General and DEC PDP-11 systems.  Small disks like the 
Diablo cartridge drive and larger ones that were essentially 
plug-compatible IBM 2314-type drives were available in the 
early 1970's.  These had very little electronics
in the drive.  A little bit of head seek logic and read and 
write amps, that was about it.


Jon

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:
I've looked for but cannot find any WD or Compaq documents publically 
using IDE to describe what ultimately issued as ATA-1.  My search 
included various Compaq maintenance manuals.


Thank you very much for doing those searches!
My first encounter with one was in a Compaq, without having previously 
heard any mention that they were going to do anything like that.  And no 
prior mention of "IDE" NOR "ATA".

It was a surprise, but seemed to make sense.

So, the PR and naming bodies of the relevant companies let it go into use 
without massive prior bragging!  I hadn't been paying close attention to 
CDC nor Connor, but I seemed to have missed whatever WD or Compaq had 
advertised about it at Comdex.


And then, later, I heard "IDE", before I had heard "ATA", but that was 
presumably just due to the circles that I dealt with.



The earliest public use of 
ATA and AT attachment that I can find is March 1969 at the CAM committee 

Would that be 1989?

My recollection (possibly flawed) is WD tried to have the responsible 
committee change the name to IDE and failed.


especially interesting
Standards committees are always being pressured by individual companies to 
use the specific structures and terminologies of those companies.


I do have a confidential WD document from 1965 which does use the term 
IDE for "Integrated Drive Electronics" referring to their chips, a drive 
built with these chips was called an "Integrated Drive" or an ID.

Would that be 1985?

The CAM and ANSI committees have since March 1969 defined ATA == AT 

Would that be 1989?
(In 1969, it would certainly NOT be a reference to the IBM PC/AT (5170)!)


OK.
It was explicitly a reference to the PC/AT, which was an acronym for 
"Advanced Technology".
BUT, from what you've said, they explicitly and deliberately chose to 
reference the IBM acronym, WITHOUT ever breaking it down to reference 
what the IBM acronum had previously stood for!



Q: Is "SATA":  "Serial ATA" or "Serial AT Attachment"?   (Did they 
reference an acronym without referencing the terms of the acronym, again?)


I am going to guess that "PARALLEL ATA" came into being as a NAME, after 
"SATA", solely to differentiate it.  Similarly to how "DOUBLE Density" 
bacame a name before "SINGLE Density" ("SINGLE" was only needed later, to 
differentiate it).   And how "WORLD WAR TWO" was used as a name before 
"WORLD WAR ONE" was ever used as a name ("The Great War" got renamed when 
it was important to compare and differentiate it it from its successor).



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/01/2017 12:46 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:
> I've looked for but cannot find any WD or Compaq documents publically
> using IDE to describe what ultimately issued as ATA-1.  My search
> included various Compaq maintenance manuals.  The earliest public use
> of ATA and AT attachment that I can find is March 1969 at the CAM
> committee draft standard long before IDE was linuga franca for these
> drives.  The earliest public disclosure of the interface that I can
> find is revision IV to the Conner CP3022 specification dated Feb
> 1988; it doesn’t name the interface other than in terms of “task file
> emulation.”  It is likely that such documents existed from Conner
> prior to Feb 1988, perhaps as early as shipping the CP344 in 4Q86.
> My point is the interface was public before it was named.
> 
> My recollection (possibly flawed) is WD tried to have the responsible
> committee change the name to IDE and failed.
> 
> I do have a confidential WD document from 1965 which does use the
> term IDE for "Integrated Drive Electronics" referring to their chips,
> a drive built with these chips was called an "Integrated Drive" or an
> ID.
> 
> The earliest advertisements and specifications for what we would now
> call ATA-1 drives from Conner, MiniScribe and Quantum did not use
> either the term IDE or ATA.  I have a list of terms used if anyone
> cares.
> 
> As best I can tell WD began publically using the term IDE for its
> drives sometime around 1990 - if anyone can find a public usage prior
> to March 1989 of IDE to describe what became ATA-1  I'd really like
> to see it.
> 
> The CAM and ANSI committees have since March 1969 defined ATA == AT
> Attachment and NEVER used "Advanced Technology" as an acronym for AT
> in any standard or draft including the one cited below!  There are
> 134 possible definitions   of
> “AT,” including for example, “Appropriate Technology”  – sure the
> connection to IBM’s PC/AT  is obvious, but the authors, editors and
> reviewers of the standards never meant it to mean “Advanced
> Technology” so I suggest we respect their definition and not leap to
> an obvious but incorrect conclusion.

Tom, I think your dates are about 20 years early.

I do have an old CDC Wren III half-height manual where the interface is
called "ATA", with no mention of "IDE".  Even then, we still referred to
the drives as "IDE".   That term had to come from somewhere.

So perhaps some digging is in order.

--Chuck

The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

I've looked for but cannot find any WD or Compaq documents publically using IDE 
to describe what ultimately issued as ATA-1.  My search included various Compaq 
maintenance manuals.  The earliest public use of ATA and AT attachment that I 
can find is March 1969 at the CAM committee draft standard long before IDE was 
linuga franca for these drives.  The earliest public disclosure of the 
interface that I can find is revision IV to the Conner CP3022 specification 
dated Feb 1988; it doesn’t name the interface other than in terms of “task file 
emulation.”  It is likely that such documents existed from Conner prior to Feb 
1988, perhaps as early as shipping the CP344 in 4Q86.  My point is the 
interface was public before it was named.

 

My recollection (possibly flawed) is WD tried to have the responsible committee 
change the name to IDE and failed.

 

I do have a confidential WD document from 1965 which does use the term IDE for 
"Integrated Drive Electronics" referring to their chips, a drive built with 
these chips was called an "Integrated Drive" or an ID.  

 

The earliest advertisements and specifications for what we would now call ATA-1 
drives from Conner, MiniScribe and Quantum did not use either the term IDE or 
ATA.  I have a list of terms used if anyone cares.

 

As best I can tell WD began publically using the term IDE for its drives 
sometime around 1990 - if anyone can find a public usage prior to March 1989 of 
IDE to describe what became ATA-1  I'd really like to see it.

 

The CAM and ANSI committees have since March 1969 defined ATA == AT Attachment 
and NEVER used "Advanced Technology" as an acronym for AT in any standard or 
draft including the one cited below!  There are 134 possible definitions 
  of “AT,” including for example, 
“Appropriate Technology”  – sure the connection to IBM’s PC/AT  is obvious, but 
the authors, editors and reviewers of the standards never meant it to mean 
“Advanced Technology” so I suggest we respect their definition and not leap to 
an obvious but incorrect conclusion.

 

Tom

 

-Original Message-
From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:ccl...@sydex.com] 
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2017 5:58 PM
To: Tom Gardner via cctalk
Subject: Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

 

On 09/30/2017 04:12 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

> I think Chuck has it backwards, AT Attachment as defined by the ANSI 

> committee publically predates IDE.  Although IDE was used internally 

> at WD it did not surface publically until well after the ANSI 

> committee adopted AT Attachment, abbreviated ATA.  The AT in AT 

> Attachment or ATA has never stood for "Advanced Technology" although many 
> presume so.

 

"IDE" was a Western Digital term for drives used in the Compaq PC,

dating from 1986.   I've probably got documents from about that time

talking about IDE, if I look.   Because of Compaq's introduction of the

thing early on, that's what we called it then.

 

The "ATA Standard" began its work in 1988 by the Common Access Method committee 
of ANSI X3T10 and eventually came out with a standard in 1994, but that was 
long after "IDE" was the lingua franca term for these drives.  The ANSI 
document:

 

  
https://ecse.rpi.edu/courses/S15/ECSE-4780/Labs/IDE/IDE_SPEC.PDF

 

In, you'll read:

 

"The application environment for the AT Attachment Interface is any computer 
which uses an AT Bus or 40-pin ATA interface. The PC AT Bus is a widely used 
and implemented interface for which a variety of peripherals have been 
manufactured.  As a means of reducing size and cost, a class of products has 
emerged which embed the controller functionality in the drive.  These new 
products utilize the AT Bus fixed disk interface protocol, and a subset of the 
AT bus.  Because of their compatibility with existing AT hardware and software 
this interface quickly became a de facto industry standard."

 

So, even ANSI X3 talks about the PC AT bus.  And yes, "AT", according to IBM, 
stands for "Advanced Technology"

 

Pretty much, all you need to connect an ATA-1 drive to the 5170 bus is a couple 
of transceivers and an address decoder.

 

--Chuck