Re: [cdesktopenv-devel] Moving to MIT license

[Richard L. Hamilton]

Specific graphics can relate to branding; if they didn't want to do that, I can 
understand it.

They did put a lot of work into clang/llvm and CUPS, and that's certainly 
benefited others.  They've open sourced some things they wrote themselves (or 
bought), like libdispatch and the Swift compiler front-end, and FoundationDB.

As to why they do some things and not others, why do most people or 
organizations do most things?  For advantage, or sometimes because their 
lawyers told them to.  Now not all advantage is to anyone else's disadvantage, 
nor necessarily measurable in single-quarter profit. But selfless virtue should 
not be expected of any organization. :-)

> On Jun 17, 2018, at 11:13, Antonis Tsolomitis  > wrote:
> 
> 
> Exactly. This is the problem. One says "allow me so I can improve the 
> project" and
> after you allow s/he says "I will not contribute back".
> 
> This was why I mentioned Apple. Is it true of false that Apple used BSD to 
> build
> their Os? Is it true or false that they made billions of dollars with the 
> help of it?
> Is it true or false that the BSD community asked Apple to donate a few icons
> for their desktop, as a "thank you", and Apple refused?
> 
> This is the information I read on sites such as linuxtoday.com 
>  at that time.
> If false, OK. I will not trust linuxtoday again and forget what follows.
> 
> For me what Apple did was OK with the license, but if they indeed refused
> to donate a few desktop icons back to the project then I find this
> a strongly unethical attitude allowed by the license.
> 
> I am not a developer of CDE. Developers will decide what they want to do
> in the future. I just express my opinion since Jon asked about opinions.
> 
> Antonis.
> 
> 
> 
> Στις 16/06/2018 10:20 μμ, ο Chase έγραψε:
>> I can see both sides of the argument, although I must say that permissive 
>> licenses rarely see corporate users contribute back their code, Andrew 
>> tanenbaum, creator of Minix, received a letter from an employee of intel 
>> stating how intel preferred permissively licensed software to copyleft 
>> software as they wouldn't have to give their contributions to their 
>> competitors, which meant they were able to use Minix in the intel management 
>> engine without contributing code back to Minix. Although, I also think that 
>> the market CDE was created for, workstations, is long dead and gone, and 
>> thus any meaningful corporate contributions to CDE with it. I say we simply 
>> stick with LGPL, motif hasn't moved yet, the xutils havent moved, so that is 
>> going to be a lot of work for what seems to be very little reward.
>> 
>> Also, as far as I can tell (I am not a lawyer), the EPL is only incompatible 
>> with the GPL, not the LGPL, so we could probably still see an updated 
>> kornshell in CDE. I would however like to see the assets bumped to 
>> CC-BY-SA-4.0 still.
>> 
>> Thank you for your time,
>> -Chase
>> 
>> 
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On June 14, 2018 5:27 AM, Antonis Tsolomitis  
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 14/06/2018 12:55 μμ, Matthew R. Trower wrote:
 You seem to hold developers in low regard. Please consider: what happens 
 to a project with no developers?
 
>>> 
>>> Of course not. I have developed many things in the TeX world and of course 
>>> I am grateful to
>>> Jon and others who worked hard to free CDE and make it work.
>>> 
>>> So on the contrary, I am grateful to developers. I am just afraid that a 
>>> wrong turn will
>>> hurt again CDE. That is all.
>>> 
>>> And what about users? I have proof for the other direction. I have paid for 
>>> CDE and
>>> as a user I was treated with disrespect.*
>>> 
>>> Someone must think of the users too. Not only the developers.
>>> 
>>> Antonis.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *The only useful thing about that buy was the book it came with the CD 
>>> which I now use
>>> with the LGPL CDE.
>> 
> 
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Re: [cdesktopenv-devel] Wiki cleanups

[Chase via cdesktopenv-devel]

Were you ever able to get this test done Chris?

Thank you for your time,
-Chase

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On June 8, 2018 6:15 PM, Christopher Turkel  
wrote:

> I know the wiki needs serious TLC. I’ll have time next week, I’ll test 
> archlinux again.
>
> On Friday, June 8, 2018, Chase via cdesktopenv-devel 
>  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> The wiki is by far the best place to get information on CDE in my opinion, 
>> but there are some issues with it, many articles are orphan articles 
>> (articles which have no articles linking to it), duplicate information, 
>> outdated information (archlinux build in particular, Christopher, since you 
>> wrote the article, can you test arch again with the most current build? even 
>> though arch users are tech savvy people, saying something along the lines of 
>> "it doesn't work, don't try" without details, context or workarounds, can 
>> discourage potential users), broken images, and inconsistent use of labels. 
>> I think that the wiki needs a serious makeover. And if the info is updated, 
>> be sure to send the down way to the folks at archwiki, wikipedia (regarding 
>> the new release), etc.
>>
>> Thank you for your time,
>> -Chase--
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[cdesktopenv-devel] [Ticket request] Use updated btree_berkeley files

[Chase via cdesktopenv-devel]

Hi all,
I would like for someone to put in a ticket to update the btree_berkeley files 
in dtinfo to their most recent 1.X release, which can be found on oracle's 
website, I would say we should update to 6.X, however it is licensed under 
AGPL, and is also probably almost impossible to integrate due to the sheer 
amount of changes from 1.X to 6.X

Thank you for your time,
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Re: [cdesktopenv-devel] ksh status

[Chase via cdesktopenv-devel]

I am very much looking forward to seeing a new ksh in CDE


​Thank you for your time,

-Chase​

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On June 10, 2018 6:22 PM, Jon Trulson  wrote:

> ​​
> 
> On 06/10/2018 12:53 PM, Marcin Cieslak wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 8 Jun 2018, Ulrich Wilkens wrote:
> > 
> > > On 06/10/18 03:29, Brent Busby wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Jon Trulson j...@radscan.com writes:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 06/09/2018 05:40 PM, Chase via cdesktopenv-devel wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > Also, requiring ksh to build is a bit of a fault point for many
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > But the first systems are starting to remove ksh93 package from their
> > > 
> > > official distribution.
> > > 
> > > I've seen it on NetBSD and Arch Linux. So it might become a problem
> > > 
> > > in future.
> > 
> > I took over the maintenance of ksh93 for FreeBSD and I have no intention
> > 
> > of dropping it, unless somebody knowing ksh93 internals wants to take over
> > 
> > of course. One reason I took it over was my interest in getting
> > 
> > newer ksh93 into CDE.
> 
> I would love to see this. :)
> 
> > There is a revived effort by RedHat maintainers and Kurtis Rader at
> > 
> > https://github.com/att/ast
> > 
> > They have switched the build system to Meson (it's fast now) and applied
> > 
> > some patches (some of them I am not sure are good), so right now
> > 
> > I am just cherry picking good stuff into my "unofficial" release.
> > 
> > The latest is here https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=211164
> > 
> > -   you are welcome to test.
> > 
> > It should build mostly fine on FreeBSD 10.x, 11.x and -CURRENT.
> > 
> > It is not working on arm64 platform due to lack of sbrk() C library 
> > function.
> > 
> > Users of other OS's may just download my distfiles and try to build them by 
> > hand:
> > 
> > https://distfile.net/local-ports-distfiles/INIT.2014-12-24.tgz
> > 
> > https://distfile.net/local-ports-distfiles/ast-ksh.2018-05-20.tgz
> > 
> > The magic command to build it is
> > 
> >  ./bin/package make
> > 
> > 
> > ksh93 is embeddable, this means you can build four shared libraries
> > 
> > (sadly most packagers don't) and just use it any C program (just like tcl):
> > 
> > #include 
> > 
> > #include 
> > 
> > int main(int argc, char *argv[])
> > 
> > {
> > 
> > Namval_t *np;
> > 
> > Sfdouble_t res;
> > 
> >  Shell_t *shp = sh_init(argc, argv, 0);
> >  sh_trap(shp, "((xresult=$0*$1))", 0);
> > 
> >  np = nv_open("xresult", shp->var_tree, 0);
> >  res = nv_getnum(np);
> >  sfprintf(sfstderr,"%Lg\n", res);
> >  nv_close(np);
> > 
> >  return(0);
> > 
> > 
> > }
> > 
> > Here's BSDmakefile to build it:
> > 
> > PROG=embed
> > 
> > KSHDIST=${HOME}/sw/ast/arch/freebsd10.amd64
> > 
> > CFLAGS+=-I$(KSHDIST)/include/ast
> > 
> > LDFLAGS+=-L$(KSHDIST)/lib -Wl,-rpath=$(KSHDIST)/lib -last -lshell -ldll 
> > -lcmd
> > 
> > .include 
> > 
> > It seems that dtksh is just a couple of object files
> > 
> > that are linked with those 3 (or currently 4) shared libraries,
> > 
> > plus it uses ksh93.o files from the main distribution.
> 
> Yes, exactly. dtksh builds ksh93 (it's own version) and then adds some
> 
> stuff to become dtksh.
> 
> > As a minimum, it should be possible to upgrade ksh93 in the CDE tree
> > 
> > -   this could be done right now based on the above release.
> 
> I look forward to a patch! :) Seriously, this would be awesome.
> 
> > Long term it might possible to use ksh93 installed in the system
> > 
> > as the dependency, provided include files, libraries, and ksh93.o
> > 
> > will be provided.
> 
> And OS packagers maintain it...
> 
> -jon
> 
> > Marcin
> > 
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > 
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > 
> > cdesktopenv-devel mailing list
> > 
> > cdesktopenv-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> > 
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cdesktopenv-devel
> 
> --
> 
> Jon Trulson
> 
> "Fire all weapons and open a hailing frequency for my victory yodle."
> 
> - Zapp Brannigan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> 
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> 
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> 
> cdesktopenv-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/cdesktopenv-devel



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Re: [cdesktopenv-devel] Moving to MIT license

[Antonis Tsolomitis]

  
  

  Exactly. This is the problem. One says "allow me so I can improve
  the project" and 
  after you allow s/he says "I will not contribute back".
  
  This was why I mentioned Apple. Is it true of false that Apple
  used BSD to build
  their Os? Is it true or false that they made billions of dollars
  with the help of it?
  Is it true or false that the BSD community asked Apple to donate a
  few icons
  for their desktop, as a "thank you", and Apple refused?
  
  This is the information I read on sites such as linuxtoday.com at
  that time.
  If false, OK. I will not trust linuxtoday again and forget what
  follows.
  
  For me what Apple did was OK with the license, but if they indeed
  refused
  to donate a few desktop icons back to the project then I find this
  a strongly unethical attitude allowed by the license.
  
  I am not a developer of CDE. Developers will decide what they want
  to do
  in the future. I just express my opinion since Jon asked about
  opinions.
  
  Antonis.
  
  
  
  Στις 16/06/2018 10:20 μμ, ο Chase έγραψε:


  I can see both sides of the argument, although I must say
that permissive licenses rarely see corporate users contribute
back their code, Andrew tanenbaum, creator of Minix, received a
letter from an employee of intel stating how intel preferred
permissively licensed software to copyleft software as they
wouldn't have to give their contributions to their competitors,
which meant they were able to use Minix in the intel management
engine without contributing code back to Minix. Although, I also
think that the market CDE was created for, workstations, is long
dead and gone, and thus any meaningful corporate contributions
to CDE with it. I say we simply stick with LGPL, motif hasn't
moved yet, the xutils havent moved, so that is going to be a lot
of work for what seems to be very little reward.
  
  
  
  Also, as far as I can tell (I am not a lawyer), the EPL is
only incompatible with the GPL, not the LGPL, so we could
probably still see an updated kornshell in CDE. I would however
like to see the assets bumped to CC-BY-SA-4.0 still.
  
  
  

  Thank you for your time,
  
  -Chase
  



  
  
  
  ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
  
   On June 14, 2018 5:27 AM, Antonis Tsolomitis
 wrote:
  
   
  
  




On 14/06/2018 12:55 μμ, Matthew R.
  Trower wrote:


  You seem to hold developers in low regard. Please consider: what happens to a project with no developers?





Of course not. I have developed many things in the TeX
  world and of course I am grateful to

 Jon and others who worked hard to free CDE and make it
  work.

 

 So on the contrary, I am grateful to developers. I am just
  afraid that a wrong turn will 

 hurt again CDE. That is all.

 

 And what about users? I have proof for the other
  direction. I have paid for CDE and

 as a user I was treated with disrespect.*

 

 Someone must think of the users too. Not only the
  developers.

 

 Antonis.

 

 

 *The only useful thing about that buy was the book it came
  with the CD which I now use

 with the LGPL CDE.

  
  
  


  


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Re: [cdesktopenv-devel] 3 (possibly) simple wishes

[Antonis Tsolomitis]

Στις 16/06/2018 08:28 μμ, ο Matthew R. Trower έγραψε:

Antonis Tsolomitis  writes:


(c) On the window menu other than Move, Size, Minimize, Maximize,
Lower, a very useful addition is
"Always on top". A video, or news is playing on an "always on top"
window and you work
on something else. Or you copy-paste from a lower window to the
"always on top" forward window.
The latter use is very-very useful (with focus follows mouse enabled).

This seems like a reasonable request, as it is something that many
window managers support.  Z-order locking doesn't seem like it would be
hard to implement.

In the meantime, have you ever experiemented with disabling Raise on
Activate?  This way, keyboard focus still follows mouse, but you need to
click the titlebar (or f.circle_up) to actually raise a window.  I find
it invaluable for the type of functionality you describe (copying text
around, etc.).  Try it sometime; see what you think.


-mrt


Yes, this is how I work. Not with auto raise. However, what you suggest 
is useful

only if  the cursor is in the correct position.
If one needs to adjust the cursor by clicking, then
it does not work, because the window will raise,
and the "Always on top" functionality is a must.

Moreover, "Always on  top" is useful for other tricks too. For example 
you may want
the CDE dock to be always on top; a reasonable request. Or you may want 
to have big
clock (cairo-clock or TzClock) on the top right of your screen that 
should not be covered by apps.


Antonis.







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Re: [cdesktopenv-devel] Using prepackaged imake

[Chase via cdesktopenv-devel]

I intentionally deleted CONFIGSRC, IMAKESRC, DEPENDSRC, IMAKETOP and DEPENDTOP 
due to the config directory effectively being replaced by the prebuild imake 
binary and config files, would this have something to do with it?


​Thank you for your time,

-Chase​

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On June 16, 2018 8:22 PM, Doug Royer  wrote:

> ​​
> 
> On 06/16/2018 01:05 PM, Chase via cdesktopenv-devel wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > I gave a whack at attempting to use prepackaged imake ..., but I am running
> > 
> > into an error, ... Log attached.
> 
> It has been too long to remember exactly the name, a top level define is
> 
> missing, perhaps SRC=, CDE=, something like that. They are a path to the
> 
> top of the build.
> 
> 
> -
> 
> Doug Royer - (http://DougRoyer.US http://goo.gl/yrxJTu )
> 
> douglasro...@gmail.com
> 
> 714-989-6135
> 
> 
> --
> 
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> 
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