Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Nate Duehr]

-- Original Message --
From: "Rainer Duffner" 


So, you will quickly be back to square one, unless you want to run stuff like 
Debian or Ubuntu, which are mainly Linux-kernel+some stuff nowadays, whereas 
RHEL + CentOS forms a complete system (with additional software that RedHat has 
developed or acquired over the years).


Been reading along and literally laughed out loud at this silliness.

The vast majority of that "system" was unavailable to CentOS, always, 
and WAS the "compromise" in running it.


Stuff like beating your head against getting Satellite running, or 
realizing RH hid away the meta-data from CentOS users to know what a 
security update was, versus a feature or bugfix, which went against what 
RHEL itself was SUPPOSED to do, but never really did... and couldn't 
control massive upstream ABI, API, or feature changes throughout the 
lifespan of the promised "support", even for paid RHEL.


This is definitely not true for most CentOS users and is hilarious.  
What "system"?  It NEVER existed on CentOS.  Can't even get patch 
management software to mesh up verion numbers between RHEL and CentOS.


We "put up with it all" for exactly one reason. It was a binary 
compatible re-spin of RHEL without closed/proprietary things.  That's 
it.


The rest is just noise.  If it isn't a re-spin anymore... well, we'll 
"put up with" other oddities of projects that don't reverse their 
multi-year commitments to support things, and even stop having to 
"fight" with years-old packages.


The IT world wants "rolling" OSes and perma-garbage always-broken 
releases today, apparently.


Our first company meeting about who we dump CentOS for was this morning. 
 Flipping architectures is a year long project at least, so we're out.  
Didn't announce alternatives THE DAY IT WAS KILLED, we can't be bothered 
anymore.


We literally don't have the time with piles of other commerical and 
cloud services following suit and capitalizing on WFH and everything 
else about Covid.  We already literally have to "fire" our firewall/VPN 
vendor for doing it, we're extremely annoyed with both Google and 
Microsoft and their changes, and we already have the continuous 
nightmare of literally EVERYONE releasing so many critical security bugs 
constantly and patching ramping toward daily... that everybody who makes 
that harder is flipped the bird and summarily tossed.


The good news: Covid business model changes at least highlighted who 
we're firing faster than any hemming and hawing as things deteriorate 
for years on any platform we use.  Whoever is reaching into our (not 
very deep) pockets will lose a hand this year, we have lost our patience 
for it.


RH and the so-called "CentOS Board" (majority of RedHat people) lost 
touch with what companies are already going through with multiple 
vendors bumping prices and lowering services.  Flipping distros will 
ultimately seem tame this year for corporate users.  We may have to 
switch entire cloud platforms and services to avoid the ultra-greedy 
companies.  But annoy us this year, we have zero patience.  We're done 
with it.


DUMP.  BYE.  You ticked us off in a long line of companies we have doing 
that.  Horrible timing for RH, but they'll survive on government graft 
and large contracts.  Go Big Blue.


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[centos--- via CentOS]

On 12/9/20 04:46, Andrea Biscuola wrote:

IMHO, if you based the most critical part of your infrastructure on CentOS,  
you did it
wrong.
[...]
We also just switched to CentOS 8 from CentOS 6 spending around 6 months of work
in doing so, but the most important part of our infrastructure is on paid RHEL
licenses (i.e. hypervisors).


Back in the Before Times and RHEL 7 was at .1 or .2 I had a persistent kernel 
oops on a set of RHEL7 hypervisors. Since we had fairly well tricked out RHEL 
support licenses I opened a ticket and within a couple of weeks I had 
confirmation that yep, there was a known issue, and there was a fix entering 
testing. I asked for access to the fixed kernel. I was told no. I asked if 
there was a particular kernel version I could deploy temporarily until the fix 
was released.  Silence. I asked for a bug ID so I could maybe use that to 
figure out what kernel I could deploy until RH released the fix.  Silence.  
Meanwhile hypervisors are oopsing on me because the project didn't want to 
deviate from the vendor baseline.

Then I learned about Centos Plus. I reprovisioned a machine, picked a Plus 
kernel, and happy sailing. The project decided functionality was superior to 
arbitrary compliance in this case. Rebuilt the rest of that rack to CentOS 7 
and never looked back. Or bothered renewing as many and that level of support 
because the one time I really could have used it it was effectively denied.

Sometimes basing the most critical part of your infrastructure on CentOS was 
the only way forward.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Victor Pereira]

I agree with you matt, the community should be listened to, it is not
possible that it is the decision of a few for something, it is that CentOS is
part of the OpenSource ecosystem.

Regards,

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 1:27 PM Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 11:19 AM Marc Balmer via CentOS 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > Am 09.12.2020 um 17:15 schrieb Neil Thompson :
> > >
> > > On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 18:06, Phelps, Matthew 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hear! HEAR!
> > >>
> > >> NOBODY asked.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > OK.  We get it.  We all get it loud and clear.  You're pissed off.
> > >
> > > There's two things you can do about that -
> > > 1)  accept reality and start making plans to deal with it, or
> > > 2) continue to whine and lash out at people who are probably feeling
> > worse
> > > about the situation than you are, in which case I have to question
> > whether
> > > you actually have the maturity to be able to administer a
> > > single machine, let alone any kind of IT facility.
> >
> > I think it is nonetheless not needed to start insulting people.
> >
> > We should try to keep the discussion friendly and technical.
> > ___
> >
>
> Thanks Mark. We were told that the RedHat folks that matter (maybe) are
> monitoring this list, so I'm sorry if other folks here don't want to hear
> it, but I'm not going to stop. I feel I am speaking for many, many others
> also.
>
> We *are* a community, and we should be heard.
>
> --
>
> *Matt Phelps*
>
> *Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*
>
> (Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)
>
> Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian
>
>
> 60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
> email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu
>
>
> cfa.harvard.edu | Facebook  | Twitter
>  | YouTube  >
> | Newsletter 
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>


-- 
Victor
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[mark]

On 12/9/20 11:15 AM, Neil Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 18:06, Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:


Hear! HEAR!

NOBODY asked.


OK.  We get it.  We all get it loud and clear.  You're pissed off.

There's two things you can do about that -
1)  accept reality and start making plans to deal with it, or
2) continue to whine and lash out at people who are probably feeling worse
about the situation than you are, in which case I have to question whether
you actually have the maturity to be able to administer a
single machine, let alone any kind of IT facility.


Cheers! (Relax, have a homebrew)
___


I see, so your response to WHY DIDN'T YOU POST HERE, AND EVEN LET 
EVERYONE KNOW THIS WAS BEING CONSIDERED?! is "sorry you're pissed, 
tough"... no apology for NOT WARNING US, no nothing.


"Community"? Obviously you left us behind.

mark
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Alessandro Baggi]

Il 08/12/20 18:19, Marc Balmer via CentOS ha scritto:

Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as quite 
arrogant?

No and this is not started with the current discussion.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Alessandro Baggi]

Il 08/12/20 17:17, Marc Balmer via CentOS ha scritto:

But we, the users, trusted you.  No we don't anymore.


This!

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Lists]

On Tuesday, December 8, 2020 6:32:00 AM PST Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> This is really, really bad for the majority of us using CentOS.
> 
> Is there any way we can lobby for the reversal of this decision? Remember
> that the -devel mailing list, and IRC channels *do not* represent the vast
> majority of CentOS users. Most of us are just sysadmins trying to keep our
> systems that have been using CentOS for many, many years running and our
> procedures for installing, and patching systems working after whatever
> changes have been mysteriously decided upon, and forced on us.
> 
> We will be forced to look at other distributions now; and forced to do a
> ton of unnecessary work to deal with this.
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> > The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
> > year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
> > Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
> > current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
> > at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
> > the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
> > 
> > Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
> > 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
> > the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> > https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
> > 
> > CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
> > collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
> > ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
> > version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
> > than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
> > contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
> > And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
> > distribution ecosystem.
> > 
> > When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
> > be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
> > Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
> > If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
> > concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
> > to contact Red Hat about options.
> > 
> > We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
> > information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
> > project focus might affect you.

Maybe, maybe not. 

Take a look at Rocky Linux 
https://www.reddit.com/r/RockyLinux/comments/ka0qlv/
meet_rocky_linux_new_rhel_fork_by_the_original/




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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 01:01:28PM -0600, Christopher Wensink wrote:
> Understanding the flow of packages, is it a fair comparison to say
> that moving forward:
> Fedora packages could be considered alpha/beta releases of apps
> Centos/Stream could be considered beta / Pre-release / Release
> candidates of packages / partially stable
> RHEL official releases would be considered final release / stable

I would say that everything is much higher quality than that. We release
whole non-beta releases of just Fedora.

But particularly, no, CentOS Stream isn't beta. Packages landing in Stream
have already passed QA and gating.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/9/20 1:01 PM, Christopher Wensink wrote:
> Understanding the flow of packages, is it a fair comparison to say that
> moving forward:
> Fedora packages could be considered alpha/beta releases of apps
> Centos/Stream could be considered beta / Pre-release / Release
> candidates of packages / partially stable
> RHEL official releases would be considered final release / stable
> 
> Where as before (done 12/2021)
> Fedora Packages would be beta / pre-release
> then RHEL and CentOS were final release / stable  - one with commercial
> support and the other with community only support.
> 
> Is that accurate?

I doubt very seriously that changes made for point releases are ever
considered beta quality ..

Do the packages added betweren RHEL 7.8 to 7.9 or from RHEL 8.2 to RHEL
8.3 differ so much?  Not really.  Look at the differences in the
packages.  For the most part .. except for some desktop rebases and the
kernels .. the  ABI/API stay the same.

There are some rebases of some packages, but not very many.

I keep trying to say .. no one is rolling in packages here straight from
a new Fedora version or from Rawhide.  These changes are point release
type changes.  That is the type of changes you see from 8.2 to 8.3 or
7.8 to 7.9 ... not major changes.

> 
> On 12/9/2020 12:54 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 09:40:22AM +, J Martin Rushton via CentOS
>> wrote:
>>> And exactly the same applies to senior (or retired) admins on their
>>> home computers.  My main home machine runs about a dozen testbed
>>> VMs, DHCP/DNS for the home network, Amanda, NFS and Samba for other
>>> machines, ownCloud, Apache, Zotero and DokuWiki for the family.  I
>>> want a stable server under that lot, not a beta release.
>> CentOS Stream will not be a "beta release". That's not how RHEL minor
>> release development works. I personally think that it's going to be
>> stellar
>> for your exact use case.
>>
> 

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Brendan Conoboy]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 11:03 AM Christopher Wensink <
cwens...@five-star-plastics.com> wrote:

> Understanding the flow of packages, is it a fair comparison to say that
> moving forward:
> Fedora packages could be considered alpha/beta releases of apps
> Centos/Stream could be considered beta / Pre-release / Release
> candidates of packages / partially stable
> RHEL official releases would be considered final release / stable
>
> Where as before (done 12/2021)
> Fedora Packages would be beta / pre-release
> then RHEL and CentOS were final release / stable  - one with commercial
> support and the other with community only support.
>
> Is that accurate?
>

Eh, that's something of a mixture of metaphors and facts.  Let me make a
few approximate details plain.

For RHEL 8 the base inheritance went like this:
F27 -> RHEL 8 Alpha (internal)
F28 -> RHEL 8 Beta (public)
8 Beta ->  RHEL 8.0
8.0 -> RHEL 8.1

There were significant differences in kernel and of many cherry picked
patches and rebases from upstream, but that was the baseline.

For RHEL 9 it should look more like this (this is an approximation):
Rawhide (pre-F34) -> ELN -> RHEL 9 Alpha (internal)
F34 -> CentOS Stream 9 -> RHEL 9 Beta
CentOS Stream 9 -> RHEL 9.0
CentOS Stream 9 -> RHEL 9.1

Similar to 8 there will be some cherry picked patches, rebases from
upstream, etc, before things are 100% CentOS Stream, but the above is the
approximate expected flow that shows how Fedora and CentOS Stream interact
with a new major release, and the position of CentOS Stream as it relates
to RHEL.

On 12/9/2020 12:54 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 09:40:22AM +, J Martin Rushton via CentOS
> wrote:
> >> And exactly the same applies to senior (or retired) admins on their
> >> home computers.  My main home machine runs about a dozen testbed
> >> VMs, DHCP/DNS for the home network, Amanda, NFS and Samba for other
> >> machines, ownCloud, Apache, Zotero and DokuWiki for the family.  I
> >> want a stable server under that lot, not a beta release.
> > CentOS Stream will not be a "beta release". That's not how RHEL minor
> > release development works. I personally think that it's going to be
> stellar
> > for your exact use case.
> >
>
> --
> Christopher Wensink
> IS Administrator
> Five Star Plastics, Inc
> 1339 Continental Drive
> Eau Claire, WI 54701
> Office:  715-831-1682
> Mobile:  715-563-3112
> Fax:  715-831-6075
> cwens...@five-star-plastics.com
> www.five-star-plastics.com
>
> ___
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> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>


-- 
Brendan Conoboy / Linux Project Lead / Red Hat, Inc.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Christopher Wensink]

Understanding the flow of packages, is it a fair comparison to say that 
moving forward:

Fedora packages could be considered alpha/beta releases of apps
Centos/Stream could be considered beta / Pre-release / Release 
candidates of packages / partially stable

RHEL official releases would be considered final release / stable

Where as before (done 12/2021)
Fedora Packages would be beta / pre-release
then RHEL and CentOS were final release / stable  - one with commercial 
support and the other with community only support.


Is that accurate?

On 12/9/2020 12:54 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 09:40:22AM +, J Martin Rushton via CentOS wrote:

And exactly the same applies to senior (or retired) admins on their
home computers.  My main home machine runs about a dozen testbed
VMs, DHCP/DNS for the home network, Amanda, NFS and Samba for other
machines, ownCloud, Apache, Zotero and DokuWiki for the family.  I
want a stable server under that lot, not a beta release.

CentOS Stream will not be a "beta release". That's not how RHEL minor
release development works. I personally think that it's going to be stellar
for your exact use case.



--
Christopher Wensink
IS Administrator
Five Star Plastics, Inc
1339 Continental Drive
Eau Claire, WI 54701
Office:  715-831-1682
Mobile:  715-563-3112
Fax:  715-831-6075
cwens...@five-star-plastics.com
www.five-star-plastics.com

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 09:40:22AM +, J Martin Rushton via CentOS wrote:
> And exactly the same applies to senior (or retired) admins on their
> home computers.  My main home machine runs about a dozen testbed
> VMs, DHCP/DNS for the home network, Amanda, NFS and Samba for other
> machines, ownCloud, Apache, Zotero and DokuWiki for the family.  I
> want a stable server under that lot, not a beta release.

CentOS Stream will not be a "beta release". That's not how RHEL minor
release development works. I personally think that it's going to be stellar
for your exact use case.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 09:15:40AM +0200, Veli-Pekka Kestilä wrote:
> >Is it possible that more regressions will get through than have before?
> >Well, sure, some. But let's not pretend that even RHEL is ever
> >regression-free. It's software, after all, and there are bugs and
> >errata. I don't think that for most self-supported CentOS use, it will
> >be particularly dangerous to switch to Stream at all.
> It might or it might not. But you can't say to people in good faith
> anymore that it will be as stable as the current RHEL release.

Define stable. For most practical definitions of that and for most use
cases, it absolutely will be. For some it won't be, but I think there will
be few actual cases where it won't be _and_ CentOS Linux rather than RHEL
_was_ acceptable. 


> I have recommended CentOS to my customers as way to get going and
> also recommended getting the subscription for RHEL when possible
> afterwards.

I don't see why that would change. Or you may be able to get them started on
RHEL in some new cases.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/9/20 10:26 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

> 
> We *are* a community, and we should be heard.
> 

Absolutrly
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Nicolas Kovacs]

Le 09/12/2020 à 13:54, Ljubomir Ljubojevic a écrit :
> But harsh fact remains that CentOS Linux, a free clone of RHEL, is being
> slaughtered, and as far as I am concerned that "Stream" thingy can be
> renamed to RHEL Stream because it has no resemblance to CentOS Linux I
> know and love.

CentOS should be renamed to StreamOS or Fedup Enterprise Linux.

:o)

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 11:19 AM Marc Balmer via CentOS 
wrote:

>
>
> > Am 09.12.2020 um 17:15 schrieb Neil Thompson :
> >
> > On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 18:06, Phelps, Matthew 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Hear! HEAR!
> >>
> >> NOBODY asked.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > OK.  We get it.  We all get it loud and clear.  You're pissed off.
> >
> > There's two things you can do about that -
> > 1)  accept reality and start making plans to deal with it, or
> > 2) continue to whine and lash out at people who are probably feeling
> worse
> > about the situation than you are, in which case I have to question
> whether
> > you actually have the maturity to be able to administer a
> > single machine, let alone any kind of IT facility.
>
> I think it is nonetheless not needed to start insulting people.
>
> We should try to keep the discussion friendly and technical.
> ___
>

Thanks Mark. We were told that the RedHat folks that matter (maybe) are
monitoring this list, so I'm sorry if other folks here don't want to hear
it, but I'm not going to stop. I feel I am speaking for many, many others
also.

We *are* a community, and we should be heard.

-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


cfa.harvard.edu | Facebook  | Twitter
 | YouTube 
| Newsletter 
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Marc Balmer via CentOS]

> Am 09.12.2020 um 17:15 schrieb Neil Thompson :
> 
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 18:06, Phelps, Matthew 
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hear! HEAR!
>> 
>> NOBODY asked.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> OK.  We get it.  We all get it loud and clear.  You're pissed off.
> 
> There's two things you can do about that -
> 1)  accept reality and start making plans to deal with it, or
> 2) continue to whine and lash out at people who are probably feeling worse
> about the situation than you are, in which case I have to question whether
> you actually have the maturity to be able to administer a
> single machine, let alone any kind of IT facility.

I think it is nonetheless not needed to start insulting people.

We should try to keep the discussion friendly and technical.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Neil Thompson]

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 18:06, Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:

>
>
> Hear! HEAR!
>
> NOBODY asked.
>
>
>
OK.  We get it.  We all get it loud and clear.  You're pissed off.

There's two things you can do about that -
1)  accept reality and start making plans to deal with it, or
2) continue to whine and lash out at people who are probably feeling worse
about the situation than you are, in which case I have to question whether
you actually have the maturity to be able to administer a
single machine, let alone any kind of IT facility.


Cheers! (Relax, have a homebrew)
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 10:59 AM mark  wrote:

> Oh, that's right, it's 2020, the dumpster fire of a year.
>
> On 12/9/20 4:40 AM, J Martin Rushton via CentOS wrote:
> >
> > On 09/12/2020 09:26, cen...@niob.at wrote:
> >> On 09/12/2020 07:16, Kingsly John wrote:
> >>>
> >>> A non-paying CentOS user is not a real loss for RHEL. But people
> dumping
> >>> CentOS for a non-RHEL clone is definitely going to impact their future
> >>> revenues as they are losing mindshare/goodwill/easy migration etc.
> >
> >> I am seeing this in practice already with juniors - they all use
> >> Ubuntu on their personal systems and they hate having to deal with
> >> RHEL. And their opinions matter in the long run.
> >>
> > And exactly the same applies to senior (or retired) admins on their home
> > computers.  My main home machine runs about a dozen testbed VMs,
> > DHCP/DNS for the home network, Amanda, NFS and Samba for other machines,
> > ownCloud, Apache, Zotero and DokuWiki for the family.  I want a stable
> > server under that lot, not a beta release.
> >
> Retired sr. Linux admin here also, also running CentOS at home. Moved to
> 7 this past summer (really dislike sstemd, hung onto 6 as long as
> possible).
>
> What I find outright offensive is that I see someone posted the specs
> for the Board... and #2 was "community outreach".
>
> Can someone point me to a post, ONE SINGLE POST, before this
> announcement, saying that this was being considered? That this might
> possibly happen?
>
> Show me that this was not just presented to the community as a fait
> accompli, non-negotiable.
>
> mark
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>

Hear! HEAR!

NOBODY asked.


-- 

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(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[mark]

Oh, that's right, it's 2020, the dumpster fire of a year.

On 12/9/20 4:40 AM, J Martin Rushton via CentOS wrote:


On 09/12/2020 09:26, cen...@niob.at wrote:

On 09/12/2020 07:16, Kingsly John wrote:


A non-paying CentOS user is not a real loss for RHEL. But people dumping
CentOS for a non-RHEL clone is definitely going to impact their future
revenues as they are losing mindshare/goodwill/easy migration etc.

>
I am seeing this in practice already with juniors - they all use 
Ubuntu on their personal systems and they hate having to deal with 
RHEL. And their opinions matter in the long run.


And exactly the same applies to senior (or retired) admins on their home 
computers.  My main home machine runs about a dozen testbed VMs, 
DHCP/DNS for the home network, Amanda, NFS and Samba for other machines, 
ownCloud, Apache, Zotero and DokuWiki for the family.  I want a stable 
server under that lot, not a beta release.


Retired sr. Linux admin here also, also running CentOS at home. Moved to 
7 this past summer (really dislike sstemd, hung onto 6 as long as possible).


What I find outright offensive is that I see someone posted the specs 
for the Board... and #2 was "community outreach".


Can someone point me to a post, ONE SINGLE POST, before this 
announcement, saying that this was being considered? That this might 
possibly happen?


Show me that this was not just presented to the community as a fait 
accompli, non-negotiable.


mark
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Ljubomir Ljubojevic]

Gregory Kurtzer, founder od CAOS Linux that later changed name to CentOS
is starting new RHEL clone: https://github.com/hpcng/rocky

On 12/8/20 8:34 PM, Strahil Nikolov via CentOS-devel wrote:
> If anyone is considering to fork CentOS 8 (I'm not talking about that
> "Stream"), count me in.
> 
> Otherwise I will switch to openSUSE Leap. At least they are not pushing
> me some testing ground.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Strahil Nikolov
> 
> В 12:07 -0500 на 08.12.2020 (вт), Phelps, Matthew написа:
>> I still haven't seen an answer to the question, "Who made this
>> decision?"
>> and, "How can we lobby to get it changed?"
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>>
>>> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the
>>> next
>>> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red
>>> Hat
>>> Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead
>>> of a
>>> current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will
>>> end
>>> at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date,
>>> serving as
>>> the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS
>>> Linux
>>> 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder
>>> of
>>> the RHEL 7 life cycle.
>>> https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
>>>
>>> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
>>> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
>>> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the
>>> next
>>> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal,
>>> rather
>>> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
>>> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of
>>> RHEL.
>>> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
>>> distribution ecosystem.
>>>
>>> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option
>>> will
>>> be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from
>>> CentOS
>>> Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux
>>> releases.
>>> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and
>>> are
>>> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage
>>> you
>>> to contact Red Hat about options.
>>>
>>> We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
>>> information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
>>> project focus might affect you.
>>>
>>> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
>>>
>>> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
>>> ]
>>>
>>> ___
>>> CentOS-devel mailing list
>>> centos-de...@centos.org
>>> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
>>>
>>
>>
> 
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> 


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Scott Robbins]

> 
> Am 08.12.20 um 19:20 schrieb Alan Mead:
> > On 12/8/2020 11:28 AM, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> > > I have been doing this for 17 years. I would continue doing for 17
> > > more.  But it is what it is and wishing for it to be different is not
> > > going to happen.  I know .. I've tried.
> > 
> > We owe everyone who worked on CentOS a big thank you.

Yes, we do. Let's not forget that. 
> > I shudder to imagine a world where Oracle Linux replaces CentOS.
> 
Who knows? Amazon may see this as another opportunity and in 5
years Amazon Linux will be the standard. Or Ubuntu, with its use of ZFS
rather than playing again with btrfs--RH dropped that, but now it's the
default in Fedora, so it may make a reappearance.

It had a good long run. Or maybe stream's differences will be minimal, and
almost nothing will change.  

Regardless, let's not forget that we *do* owe everyone who worked on CentOS
lots of thanks.  (Though my current job is a FreeBSD shop, we have some
things on CentOS that have packages for Linux but not FreeBSD.)

-- 
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Rainer Traut]

Am 08.12.20 um 19:20 schrieb Alan Mead:

On 12/8/2020 11:28 AM, Johnny Hughes wrote:

I have been doing this for 17 years. I would continue doing for 17
more.  But it is what it is and wishing for it to be different is not
going to happen.  I know .. I've tried.


We owe everyone who worked on CentOS a big thank you.

I think a lot of people are overwhelmed by the fact that the CentOS we
knew appears to be dying (was killed, in fact).

I wonder what the ultimate outcome will be. Probably RHEL will get a few
new subscribers and some CentOS users will migrate to stream, but I
think this will ultimately diminish Red Hat within the Linux world.
Probably net advantage to Ubuntu.


These are exactly my thoughts of what will happen.


I shudder to imagine a world where Oracle Linux replaces CentOS.


This has already happened-
Just take a look in Oracle's yum repository and you see the available
options.

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Ljubomir Ljubojevic]

On 12/9/20 12:01 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 11:28:58AM -0600, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>>> Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as quite 
>>> arrogant?
>> I am sorry you feel that way.  I was trying to help.  Red Hat has
> 
> Yeah, um, if I'm coming across as arrogant, I apologize. I genuinely think
> this is overall a good thing, and I'm hoping some of y'all will see some of
> that. I realize my excitement might not be completely catching at first.
> 
> But Johnny is easily in the running for "least arrogant person I know", and
> has demonstrated that consistantly for years and years, as anyone who has
> followed CentOS regularly will attest. So, c'mon, let's please not take this
> there.
> 

I do not see you or anyone else as arrogant. Any harsh words, especially
from Johnny can be attributed to frustration of not getting his view
across, and I do not fault him for that.

But harsh fact remains that CentOS Linux, a free clone of RHEL, is being
slaughtered, and as far as I am concerned that "Stream" thingy can be
renamed to RHEL Stream because it has no resemblance to CentOS Linux I
know and love.

CentOS Community wants free clone of stable and respected RHEL. That is
only thing that we can use to compete with Debian/Ubuntu which have
vanila kernel (it takes long text to explain to people what RHEL kernel
is or is not), proprietary/non-GPL drivers, codecs and apps Red Hat does
not want to add to RHEL, EPEL or Fedora. Majority of Linux users does
not want to bother with 3rd paraty repositories, convoluted ways to add
some things (that sometimes clash with base packages), etc. That is why
CentOS or even Fedora was never accepted as Desktop/Laptop, and I am
loosing desire to fight for CentOS's place under the sun.

I was actually planing to convert several C6 and C7 servers to C8, and
now I am happy I did not waste my time on it.
I even wanted to lobby to move servers of Mensa Serbia to CentOS (8),
but those are now DEFINITELY going to be all Debian which my co-admin
wishes, and it will be place where I will start learning Debian way in
preparation for "Day of Sorrow" in 12 months.


So with "CentOS Linux" gone, it is either some other clone (which will
take a lot of fate I do not have at the moment) like Springdale or newly
started Rocky Linux, or Debian Stable



-- 
Ljubomir Ljubojevic
(Love is in the Air)
PL Computers
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Strahil Nikolov via CentOS]

> How many of us, complaining here about a supposed "breach of trust",
> are involved
> in making CentOS better and not just taking what others do and make
> money on top
> of it? I never participated in anything CentOS related, I happily use
> it but you should
> know what you are buying when you choose to use a (once) volunteer-
> based project.

It's your own problem. I have opened at least 10 bugs on CentOS's
bugzilla and at least 30-40 (not counting the docu )bugs on RH's
bugzilla providing necessary details for identifying bugs and
misconfiguration. 

Best Regards,
Strahil Nikolov

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Andrea Biscuola]

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 10:50:58 +0100
Nicolas Kovacs  wrote:

> Le 09/12/2020 à 10:46, Andrea Biscuola a écrit :
> > CentOS was _always_ a best effort project done on a volunteer basis, if it
> > was stable enough to build a company on top of it, good! But always remember
> > that, in the end, you are getting what you paid for.  
> 
> Red Hat is a company built on top of a series of best effort projects done on 
> a
> volunteer basis.

Gotcha!

And Red Hat takes the effort on itself to mantain what it's published on RHEL 
for you
to use, indirectly, through CentOS; including fixing bugs, reporting things 
upstream
and being (directly or indirectly) involved in projects they package in the 
various RHEL
releases.

How many of us, complaining here about a supposed "breach of trust", are 
involved
in making CentOS better and not just taking what others do and make money on top
of it? I never participated in anything CentOS related, I happily use it but 
you should
know what you are buying when you choose to use a (once) volunteer-based 
project.

> :o)
> 


Andrea
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Nicolas Kovacs]

Le 09/12/2020 à 10:46, Andrea Biscuola a écrit :
> CentOS was _always_ a best effort project done on a volunteer basis, if it
> was stable enough to build a company on top of it, good! But always remember
> that, in the end, you are getting what you paid for.

Red Hat is a company built on top of a series of best effort projects done on a
volunteer basis.

:o)

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Andrea Biscuola]

On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 14:40:19 +
"Laack, Andrea P"  wrote:

> We would also have to spend an extraordinary amount of work moving off 
> CentOS.  We currently run it on production servers and would no longer be 
> able to run it if it was beta.  
> This will affect thousands of CentOS business users who use it because it is 
> stable and not a beta.

IMHO, if you based the most critical part of your infrastructure on CentOS,  
you did it
wrong.

The CentOS project doesn't owe you anything for any reason. It's completely your
responsibility to support CentOS in your working environment and you have no 
right
to pretend, for the developers, to mantain any commitment whatsoever to the 
project.

We use CentOS on almost all of our hosting machines at the company I work for, 
and
I'm not that afraid of this announcement. We will start to test the stream 
branch soon,
to see if it continue to fullfil our needs with a good enough stability and, 
maybe, take
a decision during the next year if we want to continue with CentOS or not.

We also just switched to CentOS 8 from CentOS 6 spending around 6 months of work
in doing so, but the most important part of our infrastructure is on paid RHEL
licenses (i.e. hypervisors).

CentOS was _always_ a best effort project done on a volunteer basis, if it was 
stable
enough to build a company on top of it, good! But always remember that, in the 
end,
you are getting what you paid for.

> 
> Andrea
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: CentOS  On Behalf Of Christopher Wensink
> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:35 AM
> To: centos@centos.org
> Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] 
> https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/
> 
> 
> CAUTION:  This email originated outside of BSWH; avoid action unless you know 
> the content is safe. Send suspicious emails as attachments to 
> badem...@bswhealth.org.
> 
> I agree this is shocking news.  If we don't want to be beta testers and want 
> to continue to use a stable tested OS should we be moving to RHEL servers?  
> Is there a license-free RHEL server option that is the recommended path from 
> using CentOS?
> 
> Chris
> 
> On 12/8/2020 8:32 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > This is really, really bad for the majority of us using CentOS.
> >
> > Is there any way we can lobby for the reversal of this decision? 
> > Remember that the -devel mailing list, and IRC channels *do not* 
> > represent the vast majority of CentOS users. Most of us are just 
> > sysadmins trying to keep our systems that have been using CentOS for 
> > many, many years running and our procedures for installing, and 
> > patching systems working after whatever changes have been mysteriously 
> > decided upon, and forced on us.
> >
> > We will be forced to look at other distributions now; and forced to do 
> > a ton of unnecessary work to deal with this.
> >
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> >  
> >> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next 
> >> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red 
> >> Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just 
> >> ahead of a current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 
> >> 8, will end at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that 
> >> date, serving as the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise 
> >> Linux.
> >>
> >> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS 
> >> Linux 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the 
> >> remainder of the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/
> >> updates/errata/*Life_Cycle_Dates__;Iw!!JA_k2roV-A!UcTJONdzRw91iWPOPbI
> >> BOfyPCTEVw0n6aihwrcaaP0xx4AM5TH5uOcLw9UL5CTiBsA$
> >>
> >> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in 
> >> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This 
> >> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next 
> >> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather 
> >> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS 
> >> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
> >> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux 
> >> distribution ecosystem.
> >>
> >> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option 
> >> will be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from 
> >> CentOS Linux 8, and has 

Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[J Martin Rushton via CentOS]

On 09/12/2020 09:26, cen...@niob.at wrote:

On 09/12/2020 07:16, Kingsly John wrote:


A non-paying CentOS user is not a real loss for RHEL. But people dumping
CentOS for a non-RHEL clone is definitely going to impact their future
revenues as they are losing mindshare/goodwill/easy migration etc.


And worse: Without CentOS being used widely (junior) admins will have 
even less experience dealing with RHEL. This will result in lower 
quality deployments of RHEL, reducing overall security of those systems 
and it will reduce RHEL adoption, hitting RH/IBM where it hurts them most.


I am seeing this in practice already with juniors - they all use Ubuntu 
on their personal systems and they hate having to deal with RHEL. And 
their opinions matter in the long run.



peter

And exactly the same applies to senior (or retired) admins on their home 
computers.  My main home machine runs about a dozen testbed VMs, 
DHCP/DNS for the home network, Amanda, NFS and Samba for other machines, 
ownCloud, Apache, Zotero and DokuWiki for the family.  I want a stable 
server under that lot, not a beta release.


--
J Martin Rushton MBCS
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Roberto Ragusa]

On 12/9/20 10:26 AM, cen...@niob.at wrote:


And worse: Without CentOS being used widely (junior) admins will have even less 
experience dealing with RHEL. This will result in lower quality deployments of 
RHEL, reducing overall security of those systems and it will reduce RHEL 
adoption, hitting RH/IBM where it hurts them most.

I am seeing this in practice already with juniors - they all use Ubuntu on 
their personal systems and they hate having to deal with RHEL. And their 
opinions matter in the long run.


Absolutely true.
They are already ignoring what a real high quality distro is, and pushing into 
production
things that are clearly unsuitable for the job.

Regards.

--
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[centos]

On 09/12/2020 07:16, Kingsly John wrote:


A non-paying CentOS user is not a real loss for RHEL. But people dumping
CentOS for a non-RHEL clone is definitely going to impact their future
revenues as they are losing mindshare/goodwill/easy migration etc.


And worse: Without CentOS being used widely (junior) admins will have 
even less experience dealing with RHEL. This will result in lower 
quality deployments of RHEL, reducing overall security of those systems 
and it will reduce RHEL adoption, hitting RH/IBM where it hurts them most.


I am seeing this in practice already with juniors - they all use Ubuntu 
on their personal systems and they hate having to deal with RHEL. And 
their opinions matter in the long run.



peter

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Ljubomir Ljubojevic]

I agree with you 100%. I was almost laughed at by vast majority of Linux
professionals when I say I use CentOS exclusively, because 90% of them
uses Debian or Ubuntu, and around 99% of developers does the same.

I see this developing like this:
All/most of the hosting companies will stop offering CentOS in favor of
Debian-based distro's (I doubt they will try other RHEL clones) and the
number of people who *HAVE* to learn CentOS/RHEL will dwindle, leaving
only those who work for RHEL customers, reducing Red Hats subscription pool.

I managed to filter all of my feelings and thoughts in two sentences:

Majority of CentOS users only care about "99% binary compatibility with
*upstream* distro". Take that away and entire Red Hat opensource model
and support is gone, same as Oracle has very little following in Linux
world.


On 12/9/20 8:15 AM, Veli-Pekka Kestilä wrote:
> On 9.12.2020 0.38, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 08:34:54AM -0600, Christopher Wensink wrote:
>>
>> Is it possible that more regressions will get through than have before?
>> Well, sure, some. But let's not pretend that even RHEL is ever
>> regression-free. It's software, after all, and there are bugs and
>> errata. I don't think that for most self-supported CentOS use, it will
>> be particularly dangerous to switch to Stream at all.
> 
> It might or it might not. But you can't say to people in good faith anymore
> that it will be as stable as the current RHEL release.
> 
>> And if your use case isn't covered by one of the upcoming low- and
>> no-cost programs, and you can't take the risk or the possible increased
>> change management overhead, or for some other reason... well, is it
>> _really_ so bad for companies to pay for RHEL? (I like my family to be
>> able to eat, so I'm a bit biased but all of this has to come from
>> something.)
>>
> 
> I have recommended CentOS to my customers as way to get going and also
> recommended getting the subscription for RHEL when possible afterwards.
> 
> After the change I lost my last argument for not going to Ubuntu LTS
> instead. Lot of companies I deal with have already done that. Problem is
> that with Ubuntu being in developers/users workstations that is what
> people mainly want without good arguments for something different.
> 
> This might serve the way to reduce amount of RHEL subscriptions in
> future. If this will happen, that I don't know. What I do know is that I
> don't have any arguments left for getting people started on RHEL/CentOS
> route.
> 
> -vpk
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Veli-Pekka Kestilä]

On 9.12.2020 0.38, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 08:34:54AM -0600, Christopher Wensink wrote:

Is it possible that more regressions will get through than have before?
Well, sure, some. But let's not pretend that even RHEL is ever
regression-free. It's software, after all, and there are bugs and
errata. I don't think that for most self-supported CentOS use, it will
be particularly dangerous to switch to Stream at all.


It might or it might not. But you can't say to people in good faith anymore
that it will be as stable as the current RHEL release.


And if your use case isn't covered by one of the upcoming low- and
no-cost programs, and you can't take the risk or the possible increased
change management overhead, or for some other reason... well, is it
_really_ so bad for companies to pay for RHEL? (I like my family to be
able to eat, so I'm a bit biased but all of this has to come from
something.)



I have recommended CentOS to my customers as way to get going and also 
recommended getting the subscription for RHEL when possible afterwards.


After the change I lost my last argument for not going to Ubuntu LTS 
instead. Lot of companies I deal with have already done that. Problem is 
that with Ubuntu being in developers/users workstations that is what 
people mainly want without good arguments for something different.


This might serve the way to reduce amount of RHEL subscriptions in 
future. If this will happen, that I don't know. What I do know is that I 
don't have any arguments left for getting people started on RHEL/CentOS 
route.


-vpk
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Kingsly John]

+++ Rainer Duffner [2020-12-08 15:42:20]:

> If your business case resolves around being able to freeload on the work of
> others, then there’s a serious problem with the business case.

That applies to IBM/RHEL too. They aren't paying for every bit of
software that is packaged in the distribution.

So they can't use that argument against others.

Also people who are currently not paying are not going to suddenly start
paying for RHEL subscriptions. 

A non-paying CentOS user is not a real loss for RHEL. But people dumping
CentOS for a non-RHEL clone is definitely going to impact their future
revenues as they are losing mindshare/goodwill/easy migration etc.

Regards,

Kingsly

-- 
---
 Kingsly At Users Dot SourceForge Dot Net  -- http://kingsly.org/
---


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

Was this decision forced, despite objection, on the CentOS board by the
RedHat Liaison?

Yes or No?



On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
> Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
> current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
> at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
> the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
>
> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
> 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
> the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
>
> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
> distribution ecosystem.
>
> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
> be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
> Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
> to contact Red Hat about options.
>
> We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
> information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
> project focus might affect you.
>
> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
>
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
> ]
>
> ___
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> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
>


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*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 11:28:58AM -0600, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> > Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as quite 
> > arrogant?
> I am sorry you feel that way.  I was trying to help.  Red Hat has

Yeah, um, if I'm coming across as arrogant, I apologize. I genuinely think
this is overall a good thing, and I'm hoping some of y'all will see some of
that. I realize my excitement might not be completely catching at first.

But Johnny is easily in the running for "least arrogant person I know", and
has demonstrated that consistantly for years and years, as anyone who has
followed CentOS regularly will attest. So, c'mon, let's please not take this
there.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Matthew Miller]

On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 08:34:54AM -0600, Christopher Wensink wrote:
> I agree this is shocking news.  If we don't want to be beta testers
> and want to continue to use a stable tested OS should we be moving
> to RHEL servers?  Is there a license-free RHEL server option that is
> the recommended path from using CentOS?

So: other than the developer subscription, not yet. But see this part of the
FAQ -- https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q10:

In the first half of 2021, we will be introducing low- or no-cost
programs for a variety of use cases, including options for open
source projects and communities, partner ecosystems and an
expansion of the use cases of the Red Hat Enterprise Linux
Developer subscription to better serve the needs of systems
administrators and partner developers. We’ll share more details on
these initiatives as they become available.

I'm not part of any of the decisions around that, but I know for sure
that work is in progress and it's not just meant to sound nice. I don't
know if any of these will meet your use cases, but I think they will
for a lot of people here.

For others, note that the plan is for CentOS Stream to target upcoming
RHEL minor releases. Between any two six months, the change delta
should be just the same as it is in CentOS Linux now. It's not like
it's going to become Fedora Rawhide. Everything going into it is
intended to land in RHEL on a short timescale. It's not a beta or a
playground for broken code.

Is it possible that more regressions will get through than have before?
Well, sure, some. But let's not pretend that even RHEL is ever
regression-free. It's software, after all, and there are bugs and
errata. I don't think that for most self-supported CentOS use, it will
be particularly dangerous to switch to Stream at all.

And if your use case isn't covered by one of the upcoming low- and
no-cost programs, and you can't take the risk or the possible increased
change management overhead, or for some other reason... well, is it
_really_ so bad for companies to pay for RHEL? (I like my family to be
able to eat, so I'm a bit biased but all of this has to come from
something.)

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[centos]

On 08/12/2020 20:01, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:


The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.

Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
the RHEL 7 life cycle.
https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates

CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
distribution ecosystem.

When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
to contact Red Hat about options.

We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
project focus might affect you.

[See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
]

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All,

Please sign this petition if you don't want the CentOS Board to implement
this decision:

https://www.change.org/p/centos-governing-board-do-not-destroy-centos-by-using-it-as-a-rhel-upstream

Or... don't if you are happy with the change.


Or don't and speak up here. Why diluting the effort by halving it?
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[John Pierce]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:02 AM Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:

> Please sign this petition if you don't want the CentOS Board to implement
> this decision:
>
>
> https://www.change.org/p/centos-governing-board-do-not-destroy-centos-by-using-it-as-a-rhel-upstream
>
> Or... don't if you are happy with the change.
>
>
>
CentOS is wholly owned by Red Hat.   What they say goes.


-- 
-john r pierce
  recycling used bits in santa cruz
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Mike via CentOS]

Would love to see this get off the ground:

  Gregory Kurtzer says:
  I am considering creating another rebuild of RHEL and may even be able
  to hire some people for this effort. If you are interested in helping,
  please join the HPCng slack (link on the website hpcng.org).

  Greg
  (original founder of CentOS)

https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/#comment-183642


On Tue, 8 Dec 2020, Strahil Nikolov via CentOS wrote:


If anyone is considering to fork CentOS 8 (I'm not talking about that
"Stream"), count me in.

Otherwise I will switch to openSUSE Leap. At least they are not pushing
me some testing ground.

Best Regards,
Strahil Nikolov

В 12:07 -0500 на 08.12.2020 (вт), Phelps, Matthew написа:

I still haven't seen an answer to the question, "Who made this
decision?"
and, "How can we lobby to get it changed?"



On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the
> next
> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red
> Hat
> Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead
> of a
> current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will
> end
> at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date,
> serving as
> the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
> 
> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS

> Linux
> 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder
> of
> the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
> 
> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in

> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the
> next
> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal,
> rather
> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of
> RHEL.
> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
> distribution ecosystem.
> 
> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option

> will
> be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from
> CentOS
> Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux
> releases.
> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and
> are
> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage
> you
> to contact Red Hat about options.
> 
> We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your

> information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
> project focus might affect you.
> 
> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
> 
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux

> ]
> 
> ___

> CentOS-devel mailing list
> centos-de...@centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
> 





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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Strahil Nikolov via CentOS]

If anyone is considering to fork CentOS 8 (I'm not talking about that
"Stream"), count me in.

Otherwise I will switch to openSUSE Leap. At least they are not pushing
me some testing ground.

Best Regards,
Strahil Nikolov

В 12:07 -0500 на 08.12.2020 (вт), Phelps, Matthew написа:
> I still haven't seen an answer to the question, "Who made this
> decision?"
> and, "How can we lobby to get it changed?"
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> 
> > The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the
> > next
> > year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red
> > Hat
> > Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead
> > of a
> > current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will
> > end
> > at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date,
> > serving as
> > the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
> > 
> > Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS
> > Linux
> > 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder
> > of
> > the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> > https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
> > 
> > CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
> > collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
> > ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the
> > next
> > version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal,
> > rather
> > than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
> > contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of
> > RHEL.
> > And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
> > distribution ecosystem.
> > 
> > When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option
> > will
> > be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from
> > CentOS
> > Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux
> > releases.
> > If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and
> > are
> > concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage
> > you
> > to contact Red Hat about options.
> > 
> > We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
> > information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
> > project focus might affect you.
> > 
> > [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
> > 
> > https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
> > ]
> > 
> > ___
> > CentOS-devel mailing list
> > centos-de...@centos.org
> > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
> > 
> 
> 

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Leon Fauster via CentOS]

Am 08.12.20 um 18:11 schrieb Johnny Hughes:

On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:




On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:

I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
the community.  Why would we trust these promises?


"Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
just magically happen.



The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We don't
have time for that.

We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
diverging from this for a while (note the change in version names/numbers)
and we DON'T WANT THAT!


Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if you
qualify for it.
...

https://www.redhat.com/en/store/red-hat-enterprise-linux-server
-> Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server
-> Choose your subscription
-> SELF-SUPPORT (1 YEAR)
Is not intended for production environments.<

What?

--
Leon
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
> Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
> current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
> at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
> the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
>
> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
> 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
> the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
>
> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
> distribution ecosystem.
>
> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
> be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
> Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
> to contact Red Hat about options.
>
> We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
> information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
> project focus might affect you.
>
> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
>
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
> ]
>
> ___
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> centos-de...@centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
>


All,

Please sign this petition if you don't want the CentOS Board to implement
this decision:

https://www.change.org/p/centos-governing-board-do-not-destroy-centos-by-using-it-as-a-rhel-upstream

Or... don't if you are happy with the change.

-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


cfa.harvard.edu | Facebook  | Twitter
 | YouTube 
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Alan Mead]

On 12/8/2020 11:28 AM, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> I have been doing this for 17 years. I would continue doing for 17
> more.  But it is what it is and wishing for it to be different is not
> going to happen.  I know .. I've tried.

We owe everyone who worked on CentOS a big thank you.

I think a lot of people are overwhelmed by the fact that the CentOS we
knew appears to be dying (was killed, in fact).

I wonder what the ultimate outcome will be. Probably RHEL will get a few
new subscribers and some CentOS users will migrate to stream, but I
think this will ultimately diminish Red Hat within the Linux world. 
Probably net advantage to Ubuntu.

I shudder to imagine a world where Oracle Linux replaces CentOS.

-Alan

-- 

Alan D. Mead, Ph.D.
President, Talent Algorithms Inc.

science + technology = better workers

http://www.alanmead.org

The irony of this ... is that the Internet is
both almost-infinitely expandable, while at the
same time constrained within its own pre-defined
box. And if that makes no sense to you, just
reflect on the existence of Facebook. We have
the vastness of the internet and yet billions
of people decided to spend most of them time
within a horribly designed, fake-news emporium
of a website that sucks every possible piece of
personal information out of you so it can sell it
to others. And they see nothing wrong with that.

-- Kieren McCarthy, commenting on why we are not 
all using IPv6

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Jon Pruente]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:43 AM Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:

> "Since March 2004, CentOS Linux has been a community-supported distribution
> derived from sources freely provided to the public by Red Hat. As such,
> CentOS Linux aims to be functionally compatible with RHEL."
>

I hate to jump in as a Devil's Advocate here, but that says CentOS Linux.
CentOS Linux is being discontinued, so that statement no longer applies to
the project.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 12:35 PM Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 12:29 PM Johnny Hughes  wrote:
>
>> On 12/8/20 11:19 AM, Marc Balmer via CentOS wrote:
>> > Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as
>> quite arrogant?
>>
>> I am sorry you feel that way.  I was trying to help.  Red Hat has
>> several programs where they give away RHEL for free.  CentOS Stream is
>> free.  CentOS Linux 8 is going away in at the end of 2021.
>>
>> Those are facts.
>>
>> He said he wanted free Linux and did not want to interact with the
>> community.  I provided all the alternatives that i know for that.
>>
>> Stream, a qualified version of RHEL that can be obtained from Red Hat
>> for free (has nothing to do with CentOS) or some other distribution.
>>
>> I am not being arrogant or negative.  Just pointing out facts.
>>
>> I have been doing this for 17 years.  I would continue doing for 17
>> more.  But it is what it is and wishing for it to be different is not
>> going to happen.  I know .. I've tried.
>>
>>
> That doesn't sound much like a "community" to me. That's my point.
>
> (And I explicitly did not ask for "free Linux," or even "free RHEL." I
> only asked for what the CentOS web page says, and has said for your 17
> years.)
>

"Since March 2004, CentOS Linux has been a community-supported distribution
derived from sources freely provided to the public by Red Hat. As such,
CentOS Linux aims to be functionally compatible with RHEL."



>
>
> >
>> >> Am 08.12.2020 um 18:11 schrieb Johnny Hughes :
>> >>
>> >> On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
>>  On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
>> > I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
>> > the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
>> 
>>  "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
>>  community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
>>  just magically happen.
>> 
>> 
>> >>> The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We
>> don't
>> >>> have time for that.
>> >>>
>> >>> We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
>> >>> diverging from this for a while (note the change in version
>> names/numbers)
>> >>> and we DON'T WANT THAT!
>> >>
>> >> Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if
>> you
>> >> qualify for it.
>> >>
>> >> Here is how you can convert:
>> >>
>> >> https://access.redhat.com/articles/2360841
>> >>
>> >> Or, you can see if Stream can meet your requirements of something you
>> >> can just get for free.
>> >>
>> >> Or, you can do something else.  It is all up to you.
>>
>> ___
>> CentOS mailing list
>> CentOS@centos.org
>> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *Matt Phelps*
>
> *Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*
>
> (Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)
>
> Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian
>
>
> 60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
> email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu
>
>
> cfa.harvard.edu | Facebook  | Twitter
>  | YouTube
>  | Newsletter
> 
>
>

-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 12:29 PM Johnny Hughes  wrote:

> On 12/8/20 11:19 AM, Marc Balmer via CentOS wrote:
> > Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as
> quite arrogant?
>
> I am sorry you feel that way.  I was trying to help.  Red Hat has
> several programs where they give away RHEL for free.  CentOS Stream is
> free.  CentOS Linux 8 is going away in at the end of 2021.
>
> Those are facts.
>
> He said he wanted free Linux and did not want to interact with the
> community.  I provided all the alternatives that i know for that.
>
> Stream, a qualified version of RHEL that can be obtained from Red Hat
> for free (has nothing to do with CentOS) or some other distribution.
>
> I am not being arrogant or negative.  Just pointing out facts.
>
> I have been doing this for 17 years.  I would continue doing for 17
> more.  But it is what it is and wishing for it to be different is not
> going to happen.  I know .. I've tried.
>
>
That doesn't sound much like a "community" to me. That's my point.

(And I explicitly did not ask for "free Linux," or even "free RHEL." I only
asked for what the CentOS web page says, and has said for your 17 years.)


>
> >> Am 08.12.2020 um 18:11 schrieb Johnny Hughes :
> >>
> >> On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
>  On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>  On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
> > I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
> > the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
> 
>  "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
>  community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
>  just magically happen.
> 
> 
> >>> The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We
> don't
> >>> have time for that.
> >>>
> >>> We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
> >>> diverging from this for a while (note the change in version
> names/numbers)
> >>> and we DON'T WANT THAT!
> >>
> >> Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if you
> >> qualify for it.
> >>
> >> Here is how you can convert:
> >>
> >> https://access.redhat.com/articles/2360841
> >>
> >> Or, you can see if Stream can meet your requirements of something you
> >> can just get for free.
> >>
> >> Or, you can do something else.  It is all up to you.
>
> ___
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS@centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>


-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Tom Bishop]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 11:29 AM Johnny Hughes  wrote:

> On 12/8/20 11:19 AM, Marc Balmer via CentOS wrote:
> > Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as
> quite arrogant?
>
> I am sorry you feel that way.  I was trying to help.  Red Hat has
> several programs where they give away RHEL for free.  CentOS Stream is
> free.  CentOS Linux 8 is going away in at the end of 2021.
>
> Those are facts.
>
> He said he wanted free Linux and did not want to interact with the
> community.  I provided all the alternatives that i know for that.
>
> Stream, a qualified version of RHEL that can be obtained from Red Hat
> for free (has nothing to do with CentOS) or some other distribution.
>
> I am not being arrogant or negative.  Just pointing out facts.
>
> I have been doing this for 17 years.  I would continue doing for 17
> more.  But it is what it is and wishing for it to be different is not
> going to happen.  I know .. I've tried.
>
> >
> >> Am 08.12.2020 um 18:11 schrieb Johnny Hughes :
> >>
> >> On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
>  On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>  On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
> > I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
> > the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
> 
>  "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
>  community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
>  just magically happen.
> 
> 
> >>> The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We
> don't
> >>> have time for that.
> >>>
> >>> We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
> >>> diverging from this for a while (note the change in version
> names/numbers)
> >>> and we DON'T WANT THAT!
> >>
> >> Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if you
> >> qualify for it.
> >>
> >> Here is how you can convert:
> >>
> >> https://access.redhat.com/articles/2360841
> >>
> >> Or, you can see if Stream can meet your requirements of something you
> >> can just get for free.
> >>
> >> Or, you can do something else.  It is all up to you.
>
> ___
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS@centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>

> I've been around for most of those, thanks Johnny for all the work.
> Appreciate all the work that all the contributors have done over the years,
> just sad to see it go, oh well.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/8/20 11:19 AM, Marc Balmer via CentOS wrote:
> Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as quite 
> arrogant?

I am sorry you feel that way.  I was trying to help.  Red Hat has
several programs where they give away RHEL for free.  CentOS Stream is
free.  CentOS Linux 8 is going away in at the end of 2021.

Those are facts.

He said he wanted free Linux and did not want to interact with the
community.  I provided all the alternatives that i know for that.

Stream, a qualified version of RHEL that can be obtained from Red Hat
for free (has nothing to do with CentOS) or some other distribution.

I am not being arrogant or negative.  Just pointing out facts.

I have been doing this for 17 years.  I would continue doing for 17
more.  But it is what it is and wishing for it to be different is not
going to happen.  I know .. I've tried.

> 
>> Am 08.12.2020 um 18:11 schrieb Johnny Hughes :
>>
>> On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:



 On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
> I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
> the community.  Why would we trust these promises?

 "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
 community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
 just magically happen.


>>> The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We don't
>>> have time for that.
>>>
>>> We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
>>> diverging from this for a while (note the change in version names/numbers)
>>> and we DON'T WANT THAT!
>>
>> Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if you
>> qualify for it.
>>
>> Here is how you can convert:
>>
>> https://access.redhat.com/articles/2360841
>>
>> Or, you can see if Stream can meet your requirements of something you
>> can just get for free.
>>
>> Or, you can do something else.  It is all up to you.

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 12:20 PM Marc Balmer via CentOS 
wrote:

> Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as
> quite arrogant?
>

Clearly, you haven't been around here long. :)

This is par for the course here, and extremely frustrating.



>
> > Am 08.12.2020 um 18:11 schrieb Johnny Hughes :
> >
> > On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> >>> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
>  I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
>  the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
> >>>
> >>> "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
> >>> community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
> >>> just magically happen.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We
> don't
> >> have time for that.
> >>
> >> We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
> >> diverging from this for a while (note the change in version
> names/numbers)
> >> and we DON'T WANT THAT!
> >
> > Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if you
> > qualify for it.
> >
> > Here is how you can convert:
> >
> > https://access.redhat.com/articles/2360841
> >
> > Or, you can see if Stream can meet your requirements of something you
> > can just get for free.
> >
> > Or, you can do something else.  It is all up to you.
> > ___
> > CentOS mailing list
> > CentOS@centos.org
> > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>
> ___
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS@centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>


-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 12:11 PM Johnny Hughes  wrote:

> On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
> >>> I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
> >>> the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
> >>
> >> "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
> >> community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
> >> just magically happen.
> >>
> >>
> > The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We
> don't
> > have time for that.
> >
> > We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
> > diverging from this for a while (note the change in version
> names/numbers)
> > and we DON'T WANT THAT!
>
> Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if you
> qualify for it.
>
>
I want what  was promised to us in the past. On the schedule that was
already published.


Here is how you can convert:
>
> https://access.redhat.com/articles/2360841
>
> Or, you can see if Stream can meet your requirements of something you
> can just get for free.
>
> Or, you can do something else.  It is all up to you.
>

No, it's *because* of you  (collective "you," that is) that we have to do
way more work than we planned, or have budgeted for. It's not "up to me."
There are many other forces here that are extremely hard to change. I'm not
talking about reinstalling my laptop. Remember that the "E" stands for
"Enterprise."

Can you not see that we are pissed off because what was advertised as being
stable through 2029 has been swept out from under us? All you have to do is
postpone this *massive* change to CentOS 9, and announce that from the
beginning.

The reaction to this is universally negative.

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>


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*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Marc Balmer via CentOS]

Am I the only one to perceive CentOS/RedHat team members responses as quite 
arrogant?

> Am 08.12.2020 um 18:11 schrieb Johnny Hughes :
> 
> On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
 I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
 the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
>>> 
>>> "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
>>> community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
>>> just magically happen.
>>> 
>>> 
>> The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We don't
>> have time for that.
>> 
>> We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
>> diverging from this for a while (note the change in version names/numbers)
>> and we DON'T WANT THAT!
> 
> Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if you
> qualify for it.
> 
> Here is how you can convert:
> 
> https://access.redhat.com/articles/2360841
> 
> Or, you can see if Stream can meet your requirements of something you
> can just get for free.
> 
> Or, you can do something else.  It is all up to you.
> ___
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> CentOS@centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Rainer Duffner]

> Am 08.12.2020 um 18:02 schrieb Phelps, Matthew :
> 
> The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We don't
> have time for that.
> 


You do understand that Open Source does not work like that?


> We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
> diverging from this for a while (note the change in version names/numbers)
> and we DON'T WANT THAT!


If you cannot justify the expenses for RHEL, then you need to compromise.
That’s like requesting free Windows licenses.

Either use Fedora, or CentOS Stream or something different.

You will likely find, however, that most Open Source software is driven by the 
people who commit code (the successful ones at least).

Those who commit code are nowadays usually employed by a company, which in 
itself either makes money directly or indirectly from the work of the people 
who commit the code.

So, you will quickly be back to square one, unless you want to run stuff like 
Debian or Ubuntu, which are mainly Linux-kernel+some stuff nowadays, whereas 
RHEL + CentOS forms a complete system (with additional software that RedHat has 
developed or acquired over the years).

Debian + Ubuntu are no replacements for CentOS/RHEL, IMO. They are something 
different.



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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Tom Bishop]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 11:11 AM Johnny Hughes  wrote:

> On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
> >>> I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
> >>> the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
> >>
> >> "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
> >> community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
> >> just magically happen.
> >>
> >>
> > The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We
> don't
> > have time for that.
> >
> > We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
> > diverging from this for a while (note the change in version
> names/numbers)
> > and we DON'T WANT THAT!
>
> Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if you
> qualify for it.
>
> Here is how you can convert:
>
> https://access.redhat.com/articles/2360841
>
> Or, you can see if Stream can meet your requirements of something you
> can just get for free.
>
> Or, you can do something else.  It is all up to you.
> ___
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> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>

> Or you could do this https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos/


Sad day when Oracle becomes a better alternative.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/8/20 11:02 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
>>> I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
>>> the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
>>
>> "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
>> community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
>> just magically happen.
>>
>>
> The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We don't
> have time for that.
> 
> We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
> diverging from this for a while (note the change in version names/numbers)
> and we DON'T WANT THAT!

Right, you want free RHEL .. so get in touch with Red Hat and see if you
qualify for it.

Here is how you can convert:

https://access.redhat.com/articles/2360841

Or, you can see if Stream can meet your requirements of something you
can just get for free.

Or, you can do something else.  It is all up to you.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

I still haven't seen an answer to the question, "Who made this decision?"
and, "How can we lobby to get it changed?"



On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
> Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
> current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
> at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
> the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
>
> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
> 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
> the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
>
> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
> distribution ecosystem.
>
> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
> be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
> Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
> to contact Red Hat about options.
>
> We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
> information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
> project focus might affect you.
>
> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
>
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
> ]
>
> ___
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>


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(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Tom Bishop]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
> > I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
> > the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
>
> "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
> community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
> just magically happen.
>
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>

> I think you should just stop replying your only digging the hole deeper
> IMHO. This is a major change and potentially a lot of work for a lot of
> people. Just another great 2020 gift.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:59 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
> > I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
> > the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
>
> "Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the
> community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to
> just magically happen.
>
>
The whole point of CentOS was so that we didn't have to "engage." We don't
have time for that.

We just want a stable re-compile of RHEL, as promised. CentOS has been
diverging from this for a while (note the change in version names/numbers)
and we DON'T WANT THAT!


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Rich Bowen]

On 12/8/20 11:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:

I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
the community.  Why would we trust these promises?


"Better engagement with the community" of course requires that the 
community step up and engage. Trust isn't something anyone expects to 
just magically happen.


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Johnny Hughes]

On 12/8/20 10:29 AM, Jonathan Billings wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 11:15:04AM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
>> That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open source
>> project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.
> 
> I don't think anyone seriously thought it was a contract.
> 
> Open Source works largely on trust.  Trust that the developers aren't
> going to intentionally harm their users, and the trust that those
> developers will provide a consistent product.  Developers earn the
> trust of their users.  Trust is the basic commodity for Open Source. 
> 
> That doesn't mean that open source providers always provide those
> things.  There are many, many stories out there where upstream makes
> an abrupt change that their users dislike.  And if you've broken that
> trust, end users are going to be wary of ever putting any more trust
> in the developers.
> 
> Maybe the CentOS Stream thing will work out OK for everyone.  But the
> way this was announced, there are a lot of people who have lost trust
> in CentOS and Red Hat.  Changing the end of life for CentOS 8 has
> broken our trust in the project.
> 
> I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
> the community.  Why would we trust these promises?
> 

You should NOT trust them.  You should observe them.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:15 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/8/20 10:41 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jonathan Billings 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> >>> You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for CentOS 8
> is
> >>> May 2029. (c.f.
> >> https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
> >>> CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
> >>>
> >>> This announcement is a breach of that trust with your community, and
> >> could
> >>> be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
> >>>
> >>> Save this change for CentOS 9.
> >>
> >> Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Don't worry. I saved a copy.
>
> So did we. It's in Git.
>
> That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open
> source project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.
>
> _


Maybe not a contract, but clearly CentOS set that timeline in the past and
has now abandoned it, on extremely short notice, and that is a major breach
of trust.

Changing a product timeline BY EIGHT YEARS is a huge, huge change, and it
completely erodes any confidence your community has in you.

I respectfully request this change be postponed until CentOS 9 and
announced as such from the beginning.



> _
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> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>


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(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Jonathan Billings]

On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 11:15:04AM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
> That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open source
> project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.

I don't think anyone seriously thought it was a contract.

Open Source works largely on trust.  Trust that the developers aren't
going to intentionally harm their users, and the trust that those
developers will provide a consistent product.  Developers earn the
trust of their users.  Trust is the basic commodity for Open Source. 

That doesn't mean that open source providers always provide those
things.  There are many, many stories out there where upstream makes
an abrupt change that their users dislike.  And if you've broken that
trust, end users are going to be wary of ever putting any more trust
in the developers.

Maybe the CentOS Stream thing will work out OK for everyone.  But the
way this was announced, there are a lot of people who have lost trust
in CentOS and Red Hat.  Changing the end of life for CentOS 8 has
broken our trust in the project.

I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
the community.  Why would we trust these promises?

-- 
Jonathan Billings 
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Tom Bishop]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:15 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/8/20 10:41 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jonathan Billings 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> >>> You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for CentOS 8
> is
> >>> May 2029. (c.f.
> >> https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
> >>> CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
> >>>
> >>> This announcement is a breach of that trust with your community, and
> >> could
> >>> be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
> >>>
> >>> Save this change for CentOS 9.
> >>
> >> Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Don't worry. I saved a copy.
>
> So did we. It's in Git.
>
> That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open
> source project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.
>
> ___
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>

> Yeah that makes it all better, lol. If this was the direction you should
> have done it before releasing Centos 8, of course Redhat can do what they
> want to do, becoming more and more like MS, oh well.
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Marc Balmer via CentOS]

> Am 08.12.2020 um 17:15 schrieb Rich Bowen :
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/8/20 10:41 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jonathan Billings 
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
 You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for CentOS 8 is
 May 2029. (c.f.
>>> https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
 CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
 
 This announcement is a breach of that trust with your community, and
>>> could
 be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
 
 Save this change for CentOS 9.
>>> 
>>> Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> Don't worry. I saved a copy.
> 
> So did we. It's in Git.
> 
> That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open source 
> project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.

Of course it was not a legally binding contract.  But we, the users, trusted 
you.  No we don't anymore.

> 
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Rich Bowen]

On 12/8/20 10:41 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jonathan Billings 
wrote:


On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for CentOS 8 is
May 2029. (c.f.

https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).

CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.

This announcement is a breach of that trust with your community, and

could

be construed as a breach of contract with your users.

Save this change for CentOS 9.


Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/




Don't worry. I saved a copy.


So did we. It's in Git.

That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open 
source project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jonathan Billings 
wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for CentOS 8 is
> > May 2029. (c.f.
> https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
> > CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
> >
> > This announcement is a breach of that trust with your community, and
> could
> > be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
> >
> > Save this change for CentOS 9.
>
> Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/
>
>
>
Don't worry. I saved a copy.



>
> https://git.centos.org/centos/centos.org/c/add15d276da60481d018d414493c8f5d4e630c16?branch=master
>
> diff --git a/_includes/centos-linux-download.html
> b/_includes/centos-linux-download.html
> index 4e8ce7f..63c5bd8 100644
> --- a/_includes/centos-linux-download.html
> +++ b/_includes/centos-linux-download.html
> @@ -53,7 +53,8 @@
>  
>  
>  
> -31 May 2029
> +31 December 2021  +href="
> https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/
> ">*
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Billings 
> ___
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>


-- 

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*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:28 AM Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
>> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
>> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
>> Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
>> current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
>> at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
>> the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
>>
>> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
>> 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
>> the RHEL 7 life cycle.
>> https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
>>
>> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
>> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
>> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
>> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
>> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
>> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
>> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
>> distribution ecosystem.
>>
>> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
>> be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
>> Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
>> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
>> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
>> to contact Red Hat about options.
>>
>> We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
>> information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
>> project focus might affect you.
>>
>> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
>>
>> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
>> ]
>>
>> ___
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>> centos-de...@centos.org
>> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
>>
>
>
> You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for CentOS 8 is
> May 2029. (c.f. https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
> CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
>
> This announcement is a breach of that trust with your community, and could
> be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
>
> Save this change for CentOS 9.
>
>
This statement from that page is also now a lie:


The CentOS Linux distribution is a stable, predictable, manageable and
reproducible platform derived from the sources of Red Hat Enterprise Linux
(RHEL).


This statement is the reason we *all* chose CentOS. You will be betraying
us in the worst possible way if this change is allowed to happen.

This isn't just a "Knee jerk" reaction. CentOS is abandoning everything it
stood for by even creating CentOS Stream. We *dont want it* !!

Getting rid of a strict re-compile of RHEL X.X is a complete reversal of
the principles of CentOS and the community it serves. Again, WE DON'T WANT
THIS!




>
> --
>
> *Matt Phelps*
>
> *Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*
>
> (Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)
>
> Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian
>
>
> 60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
> email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu
>
>
> cfa.harvard.edu | Facebook  | Twitter
>  | YouTube
>  | Newsletter
> 
>
>

-- 

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*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Jonathan Billings]

On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for CentOS 8 is
> May 2029. (c.f. https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
> CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
> 
> This announcement is a breach of that trust with your community, and could
> be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
> 
> Save this change for CentOS 9.

Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/


https://git.centos.org/centos/centos.org/c/add15d276da60481d018d414493c8f5d4e630c16?branch=master

diff --git a/_includes/centos-linux-download.html 
b/_includes/centos-linux-download.html
index 4e8ce7f..63c5bd8 100644
--- a/_includes/centos-linux-download.html
+++ b/_includes/centos-linux-download.html
@@ -53,7 +53,8 @@
 
 
 
-31 May 2029
+31 December 2021 https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/;>*
 
 
 


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
> Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
> current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
> at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
> the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
>
> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
> 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
> the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
>
> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
> distribution ecosystem.
>
> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
> be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
> Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
> to contact Red Hat about options.
>
> We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
> information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
> project focus might affect you.
>
> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
>
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
> ]
>
> ___
> CentOS-devel mailing list
> centos-de...@centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
>


You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for CentOS 8 is
May 2029. (c.f. https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.

This announcement is a breach of that trust with your community, and could
be construed as a breach of contract with your users.

Save this change for CentOS 9.



-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:42 AM Rainer Duffner 
wrote:

>
>
> > Am 08.12.2020 um 15:32 schrieb Phelps, Matthew  >:
> >
> > This is really, really bad for the majority of us using CentOS.
> >
>
>
>
> Of course it is.
>
>
> > Is there any way we can lobby for the reversal of this decision? Remember
> > that the -devel mailing list, and IRC channels *do not* represent the
> vast
> > majority of CentOS users. Most of us are just sysadmins trying to keep
> our
> > systems that have been using CentOS for many, many years running and our
> > procedures for installing, and patching systems working after whatever
> > changes have been mysteriously decided upon, and forced on us.
> >
> > We will be forced to look at other distributions now; and forced to do a
> > ton of unnecessary work to deal with this.
>
>
>
> The reality is that it was always on borrowed time.
>
> Getting RHEL without paying for it and with slight delays in updates (most
> people don’t even update that often anyway) wasn’t going to be sustainable,
> ever.
>
> If your business case resolves around being able to freeload on the work
> of others, then there’s a serious problem with the business case.
>


I DO NOT WORK FOR A BUSINESS!! (Yes, I'm yelling. Sorry, but I am well and
truly pissed off!) We have no budget for RHEL.



>
> And I say that as somebody who has installed a large portion of the
> CentOS8 (and 7) servers at work.
>
> Not sure what we ourselves are going to do about it, though.
>
> I would hate to switch to Ubuntu for the stuff I like CentOS most for (for
> some, it’s arguably not the greatest distro).
>
> We might end up licensing RHEL for that - and the rest maybe Fedora.
>
>
>
>
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>


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(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Rainer Duffner]

> Am 08.12.2020 um 15:32 schrieb Phelps, Matthew :
> 
> This is really, really bad for the majority of us using CentOS.
> 



Of course it is.


> Is there any way we can lobby for the reversal of this decision? Remember
> that the -devel mailing list, and IRC channels *do not* represent the vast
> majority of CentOS users. Most of us are just sysadmins trying to keep our
> systems that have been using CentOS for many, many years running and our
> procedures for installing, and patching systems working after whatever
> changes have been mysteriously decided upon, and forced on us.
> 
> We will be forced to look at other distributions now; and forced to do a
> ton of unnecessary work to deal with this.



The reality is that it was always on borrowed time.

Getting RHEL without paying for it and with slight delays in updates (most 
people don’t even update that often anyway) wasn’t going to be sustainable, 
ever.

If your business case resolves around being able to freeload on the work of 
others, then there’s a serious problem with the business case.

And I say that as somebody who has installed a large portion of the CentOS8 
(and 7) servers at work.

Not sure what we ourselves are going to do about it, though.

I would hate to switch to Ubuntu for the stuff I like CentOS most for (for 
some, it’s arguably not the greatest distro).

We might end up licensing RHEL for that - and the rest maybe Fedora.




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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Tom Bishop]

LOL, laughing with you not at you, license free RHEL.  Just RHEL (IBM)
wanting to increase the coffers for RHEL.  I know, I know thats not whats
really happening but yeah that is what is really happening. If you want a
tested production worthy server install based on RHEL then you will have to
pay for RHEL.  I know this is exaggerating but if I wanted to test
pre-production stuff I could just run Fedora. ;)

Oh well end of an era...sniff.


servers?  Is there a license-free RHEL server option that is the
> recommended path from using CentOS?
>
> Chris
>
> On 12/8/2020 8:32 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > This is really, really bad for the majority of us using CentOS.
> >
> > Is there any way we can lobby for the reversal of this decision? Remember
> > that the -devel mailing list, and IRC channels *do not* represent the
> vast
> > majority of CentOS users. Most of us are just sysadmins trying to keep
> our
> > systems that have been using CentOS for many, many years running and our
> > procedures for installing, and patching systems working after whatever
> > changes have been mysteriously decided upon, and forced on us.
> >
> > We will be forced to look at other distributions now; and forced to do a
> > ton of unnecessary work to deal with this.
> >
> > Thanks a lot.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
> >
> >> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
> >> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
> >> Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
> >> current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
> >> at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
> >> the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
> >>
> >> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
> >> 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
> >> the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> >>
> https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
> >>
> >> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
> >> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
> >> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
> >> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
> >> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
> >> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
> >> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
> >> distribution ecosystem.
> >>
> >> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
> >> be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
> >> Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
> >> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
> >> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
> >> to contact Red Hat about options.
> >>
> >> We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
> >> information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
> >> project focus might affect you.
> >>
> >> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
> >>
> >>
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
> >> ]
> >>
> >> ___
> >> CentOS-devel mailing list
> >> centos-de...@centos.org
> >> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Christopher Wensink
> IS Administrator
> Five Star Plastics, Inc
> 1339 Continental Drive
> Eau Claire, WI 54701
> Office:  715-831-1682
> Mobile:  715-563-3112
> Fax:  715-831-6075
> cwens...@five-star-plastics.com
> www.five-star-plastics.com
>
> ___
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS@centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>
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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Laack, Andrea P]

We would also have to spend an extraordinary amount of work moving off CentOS.  
We currently run it on production servers and would no longer be able to run it 
if it was beta.  
This will affect thousands of CentOS business users who use it because it is 
stable and not a beta.

Andrea

-Original Message-
From: CentOS  On Behalf Of Christopher Wensink
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:35 AM
To: centos@centos.org
Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] 
https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/


CAUTION:  This email originated outside of BSWH; avoid action unless you know 
the content is safe. Send suspicious emails as attachments to 
badem...@bswhealth.org.

I agree this is shocking news.  If we don't want to be beta testers and want to 
continue to use a stable tested OS should we be moving to RHEL servers?  Is 
there a license-free RHEL server option that is the recommended path from using 
CentOS?

Chris

On 12/8/2020 8:32 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> This is really, really bad for the majority of us using CentOS.
>
> Is there any way we can lobby for the reversal of this decision? 
> Remember that the -devel mailing list, and IRC channels *do not* 
> represent the vast majority of CentOS users. Most of us are just 
> sysadmins trying to keep our systems that have been using CentOS for 
> many, many years running and our procedures for installing, and 
> patching systems working after whatever changes have been mysteriously 
> decided upon, and forced on us.
>
> We will be forced to look at other distributions now; and forced to do 
> a ton of unnecessary work to deal with this.
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
>> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next 
>> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red 
>> Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just 
>> ahead of a current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 
>> 8, will end at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that 
>> date, serving as the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise 
>> Linux.
>>
>> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS 
>> Linux 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the 
>> remainder of the RHEL 7 life cycle.
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/
>> updates/errata/*Life_Cycle_Dates__;Iw!!JA_k2roV-A!UcTJONdzRw91iWPOPbI
>> BOfyPCTEVw0n6aihwrcaaP0xx4AM5TH5uOcLw9UL5CTiBsA$
>>
>> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in 
>> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This 
>> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next 
>> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather 
>> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS 
>> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
>> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux 
>> distribution ecosystem.
>>
>> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option 
>> will be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from 
>> CentOS Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux 
>> releases.
>> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are 
>> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage 
>> you to contact Red Hat about options.
>>
>> We have an FAQ - 
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://centos.org/distro-faq/__;!!JA_k2r
>> oV-A!UcTJONdzRw91iWPOPbIBOfyPCTEVw0n6aihwrcaaP0xx4AM5TH5uOcLw9ULXK7HrAw$  - 
>> to help with your information and planning needs, as you figure out how this 
>> shift of project focus might affect you.
>>
>> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-str
>> eam-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux__;!!JA_k2roV-A!UcTJON
>> dzRw91iWPOPbIBOfyPCTEVw0n6aihwrcaaP0xx4AM5TH5uOcLw9ULz5qn9vg$
>> ]
>>
>> ___
>> CentOS-devel mailing list
>> centos-de...@centos.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo
>> /centos-devel__;!!JA_k2roV-A!UcTJONdzRw91iWPOPbIBOfyPCTEVw0n6aihwrcaa
>> P0xx4AM5TH5uOcLw9UKTDKBGAA$
>>
>

--
Christopher Wensink
IS Administrator
Five Star Plastics, Inc
1339 Continental Drive
Eau Claire, WI 54701
Office:  715-831-1682
Mobile:  715-563-3112
Fax:  715-831-6075
cwens...@five-star-plastics.com
https://urldefense.c

Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Christopher Wensink]

I agree this is shocking news.  If we don't want to be beta testers and 
want to continue to use a stable tested OS should we be moving to RHEL 
servers?  Is there a license-free RHEL server option that is the 
recommended path from using CentOS?


Chris

On 12/8/2020 8:32 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

This is really, really bad for the majority of us using CentOS.

Is there any way we can lobby for the reversal of this decision? Remember
that the -devel mailing list, and IRC channels *do not* represent the vast
majority of CentOS users. Most of us are just sysadmins trying to keep our
systems that have been using CentOS for many, many years running and our
procedures for installing, and patching systems working after whatever
changes have been mysteriously decided upon, and forced on us.

We will be forced to look at other distributions now; and forced to do a
ton of unnecessary work to deal with this.

Thanks a lot.



On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:


The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.

Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
the RHEL 7 life cycle.
https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates

CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
distribution ecosystem.

When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
to contact Red Hat about options.

We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
project focus might affect you.

[See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
]

___
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--
Christopher Wensink
IS Administrator
Five Star Plastics, Inc
1339 Continental Drive
Eau Claire, WI 54701
Office:  715-831-1682
Mobile:  715-563-3112
Fax:  715-831-6075
cwens...@five-star-plastics.com
www.five-star-plastics.com

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Re: [CentOS] [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

[Phelps, Matthew]

This is really, really bad for the majority of us using CentOS.

Is there any way we can lobby for the reversal of this decision? Remember
that the -devel mailing list, and IRC channels *do not* represent the vast
majority of CentOS users. Most of us are just sysadmins trying to keep our
systems that have been using CentOS for many, many years running and our
procedures for installing, and patching systems working after whatever
changes have been mysteriously decided upon, and forced on us.

We will be forced to look at other distributions now; and forced to do a
ton of unnecessary work to deal with this.

Thanks a lot.



On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:06 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:

> The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next
> year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat
> Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a
> current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end
> at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as
> the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
>
> Meanwhile, we understand many of you are deeply invested in CentOS Linux
> 7, and we’ll continue to produce that version through the remainder of
> the RHEL 7 life cycle.
> https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/#Life_Cycle_Dates
>
> CentOS Stream will also be the centerpiece of a major shift in
> collaboration among the CentOS Special Interest Groups (SIGs). This
> ensures SIGs are developing and testing against what becomes the next
> version of RHEL. This also provides SIGs a clear single goal, rather
> than having to build and test for two releases. It gives the CentOS
> contributor community a great deal of influence in the future of RHEL.
> And it removes confusion around what “CentOS” means in the Linux
> distribution ecosystem.
>
> When CentOS Linux 8 (the rebuild of RHEL8) ends, your best option will
> be to migrate to CentOS Stream 8, which is a small delta from CentOS
> Linux 8, and has regular updates like traditional CentOS Linux releases.
> If you are using CentOS Linux 8 in a production environment, and are
> concerned that CentOS Stream will not meet your needs, we encourage you
> to contact Red Hat about options.
>
> We have an FAQ - https://centos.org/distro-faq/ - to help with your
> information and planning needs, as you figure out how this shift of
> project focus might affect you.
>
> [See also: Red Hat's perspective on this.
>
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/centos-stream-building-innovative-future-enterprise-linux
> ]
>
> ___
> CentOS-devel mailing list
> centos-de...@centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
>


-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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