RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Worthy of some consideration - thanks! Martin Parry Macromedia Certified Developer http://www.BeetrootStreet.co.uk -Original Message- From: Marlon Moyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 February 2005 19:09 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:48:52 -, Martin Parry I like using this library: http://www.dithered.com/javascript/index.html (1k script that eases cross browser javascript development. i.e. instead of document.getElementById(id) you use gE(id) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193288 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
How about that CherryOS for Mac Emulation! -Original Message- From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 12:50 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions -Original Message- From: Dave Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? Whenever possible code to standards then change (and comment!) for browser issues. - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? The JavaScript and DHTML guides at MSDN.microsoft.com are pretty good and inform you of which features are in which specs (but not how to code for the other browsers). - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? MS (formerly Connectix) Virtual PC or VMWare are absolute god sends for this. Using them you can install any x86 OS (all DOS/Windows, Linux, BeOS, Lindows, etc) to software only Virtual PCs. You can then copy virtual PCs (which are really just files on your hard disk) to easily create test platforms. For example you might install Windows 2000 to a virtual PC. You then make a copy of that and install IE 5.5 then another copy and install IE 6.0. Now you can run all of them as windows on your host machine for testing. The only thing you can't do (since this is x86 emulator) is test Mac OSs. There's still no really good solution for that other than getting a Mac and then you're still left with multi-booting or multiple machines for testing multiple OSes (I REALLY WANT a PPC emulator!) - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? Personally, no. I use Virtual PC for PC and Linux and trust to the graces of friends for Macs (since I can't see spending the money and dedicating the space for one personally). - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Depends on the site... right now I would say on the PC IE 6, 5.5 and 5 and Firefox 1.0 as browsers should be the minimum. However you might want to add earlier versions of Mozilla and IE-based browsers. AOL testing would be good as well, if you can, although it still uses the IE engine it does modify it. One the Mac it looks like IE 5.5 is losing ground steadily to Safari while on Linux Firefox seems to be king. Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193302 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
-Original Message- From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 7:16 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions How about that CherryOS for Mac Emulation! I don't know - how about it? Since you can't download, buy, see or otherwise do anything with the software it's hard to judge. ;^) PearPC is available. While it does, indeed, work it's much too slow at this stage to actually do any work. But I'm hopeful. Maybe by the summer one of these two will actually be ready for semi-primetime. Jim Davis ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193324 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
-Original Message- From: Dave Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? Nope. I have one CSS file for screen display (and another for printing) that is designed for IE 5.5 and Firefox. If you view our websites with an unsupported browser (old IE, Netscape, etc) then you get a nice little message telling you that you are using an unsupported web browser with a link to a long page explaining the reasons behind it and listing suggestions. - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? I try to stick to XHTML 1.0 Strict whereever I can. - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. Yes you can :-) Google for simultaneous IE versions. You just can't have them running simultaneously, but they can all be installed. - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? We've got an OSX machine which I do occasional Safari tests with. That's about it. - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? I start with Firefox and massage the output to work in other browsers. I suggest IE 5.5 at the oldest if you do lots of fancy CSS positioning, otherwise IE5 should be able to still do most of what you need. Then do an occasional check with Opera, and Safari if you can. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193346 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
-Original Message- From: Russ Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] And yes, the argument is there for cost savings, etc. but the first time you find yourself spending 2 days trying to make something work across browsers using only XHTML and CSS when you could have performed the same task with a table in 2 minutes... Well, let's just say that the cost benefit starts to also... Diminish. I've found that most of the problems I come across with CSS are things that I regularly have to do, e.g. multiple columns, etc. So I worked out one good solution and replicate it as needed, so after the initial day it took to get working the first time only takes a few minutes for subsequent efforts. There are a lot of tips and tricks out there for working with CSS, since I learned how to use them I've stopped using tables except for... tabular data. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193349 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Jim Davis wrote: -Original Message- From: Dave Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? Whenever possible code to standards then change (and comment!) for browser issues. - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? The JavaScript and DHTML guides at MSDN.microsoft.com are pretty good and inform you of which features are in which specs (but not how to code for the other browsers). - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? MS (formerly Connectix) Virtual PC or VMWare are absolute god sends for this. Using them you can install any x86 OS (all DOS/Windows, Linux, BeOS, Lindows, etc) to software only Virtual PCs. You can then copy virtual PCs (which are really just files on your hard disk) to easily create test platforms. For example you might install Windows 2000 to a virtual PC. You then make a copy of that and install IE 5.5 then another copy and install IE 6.0. Now you can run all of them as windows on your host machine for testing. The only thing you can't do (since this is x86 emulator) is test Mac OSs. There's still no really good solution for that other than getting a Mac and then you're still left with multi-booting or multiple machines for testing multiple OSes (I REALLY WANT a PPC emulator!) - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? Personally, no. I use Virtual PC for PC and Linux and trust to the graces of friends for Macs (since I can't see spending the money and dedicating the space for one personally). - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Depends on the site... right now I would say on the PC IE 6, 5.5 and 5 and Firefox 1.0 as browsers should be the minimum. However you might want to add earlier versions of Mozilla and IE-based browsers. AOL testing would be good as well, if you can, although it still uses the IE engine it does modify it. One the Mac it looks like IE 5.5 is losing ground steadily to Safari while on Linux Firefox seems to be king. Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193221 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Thanks Jim, comments below. Dave Merrill - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? The JavaScript and DHTML guides at MSDN.microsoft.com are pretty good and inform you of which features are in which specs (but not how to code for the other browsers). I agree, they're very good, they've been my usual first stop for this kind of info. However, they're completely IE-specific, which is part of how I come to ask these questions. For example you might install Windows 2000 to a virtual PC. You then make a copy of that and install IE 5.5 then another copy and install IE 6.0. Now you can run all of them as windows on your host machine for testing. Good idea. Kinda funny that the only way to have multiple versions of IE installed is to have multiple versions of the entire OS. If this is my dev laptop, I'd also need all my other dev tools and settings. Pain in the . - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? Personally, no. I use Virtual PC for PC and Linux and trust to the graces of friends for Macs (since I can't see spending the money and dedicating the space for one personally). That new $500 mac changes this a bit though, maybe. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193224 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
I agree, but there are a few issues. - Tables are not good for section 508 compliance, or any other situation where html markup ideally has meaning, i.e., isn't just a layout artifact. - CSS positioning makes layout much more separate from content, which is important if there are designers who are separate from the programmers. - Some prospective clients are dis-impressed. Dave Merrill Same here... I've lurked around some CSS-related newsgroups and even some of the die-hard CSS fans still use tables for layout and dress it up with CSS. I NEVER put in a hack. NEVER! I have never needed anything that bad to use a hack. M!ke So I'm very careful with CSS, not to get into having to worry about this hack and that workaround ... if tables work easily and display well, then tables it is. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193225 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
On Feb 6, 2005, at 2:56 AM, Cutter wrote: - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? Personally, no. I use Virtual PC for PC and Linux and trust to the graces of friends for Macs (since I can't see spending the money and dedicating the space for one personally). Ahh... this has changed recently. You can buy an Mac mini for as little as $500, including OS X, Safari, iLife (iTunes, iPhoto, IMovie, iDVD), Java, Pearl, PHP, Apache, etc, pre-installed it is 6.5 inch x 6.5 inch x 2 inches tall-- doesn't take up a lot of space Will fit below most Flat Panel displays.. It doesn't come with a KB mouse or display, but you can use the ones you already have with an inexpensive KVM switch: http://www.apple.com/macmini/ The base unit is only 256 Meg RAM, 40 Gig HDD, but comes with a CD/DVD combo drive. This would be totally adequate for testing web pages on the Mac, listening to music, watching movies, ripping music, capturing photos or movies, etc But if you want to create movies or do some more robust things, you might opt for 512 Meg or 1 Gig RAM, the 80 Gig HDD or SuperDrive. I have one, that I can alternately boot from external hard drives containing OS X or OS X Server, current release, or Beta of Next release. I bought mine loaded, wireless, bluetooth... I plan to use it as part of a home media wireless cluster (you can even set up a grid of these and other macs to automatically share resources). BTW, CFMX, BD, and Railo CF Engines, and CFEclipes all run just fine on this box, so it can be used as a semi-portable Developer box. So, with a little money and very little space, you can have a Mac mini share the desktop with your PC HTH Dick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193226 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
-Original Message- From: Dave Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions Thanks Jim, comments below. Dave Merrill - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? The JavaScript and DHTML guides at MSDN.microsoft.com are pretty good and inform you of which features are in which specs (but not how to code for the other browsers). I agree, they're very good, they've been my usual first stop for this kind of info. However, they're completely IE-specific, which is part of how I come to ask these questions. They are IE specific - but the key is that they're VERY clear where they're IE specific. Basically nearly anything in those specs that claim the property or object as being part of the W3C spec can be used in FireFox. For example you might install Windows 2000 to a virtual PC. You then make a copy of that and install IE 5.5 then another copy and install IE 6.0. Now you can run all of them as windows on your host machine for testing. Good idea. Kinda funny that the only way to have multiple versions of IE installed is to have multiple versions of the entire OS. If this is my dev laptop, I'd also need all my other dev tools and settings. Pain in the . No... although I might be missing something. The key is that you're Virtual PC is running as an application on your Dev laptop. Your personal settings and tools are only installed to the host OS, not each virtual PC. The nice things here is that your Virtual PC is then much closer to a normal user in that you can run it with default settings and such. You don't want to test using a machine configured by a developer (we tend to fiddle and change browser settings most people would never touch). - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? Personally, no. I use Virtual PC for PC and Linux and trust to the graces of friends for Macs (since I can't see spending the money and dedicating the space for one personally). That new $500 mac changes this a bit though, maybe. Not so much for me. That $500 dollar machine is really barebones: you need to add things (like a monitor, keyboard and such) and it still requires dedicated space (us apartment dwellers have space at a premium). That doesn't even consider software (even just the OS upgrades which are pretty common and pretty pricey). But of course you'd have to pay for that with an emulator anyway so it doesn't really count. It is a good deal, but when you can either a fully outfitted PC for the same price or an equivalent bare-bones PC for less than half it's still not very attractive (at least to me). Even then I'm still not sure if that entry-level machine has the oomph to run multiple instances of the OS (for complete testing I'd really like to run OS 9, OS X, OS X Panther, etc separately). But it still seems that for me to get a good Mac testbed set up at home it'll be at least $700-$1000 (depending on how much the OSes cost) even with the Mac-Mini. And, of course, I'd still have to find a place for it. ;^) PearPC (http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/) is promising for this, but is still really flakey. I'd really like to see something from IBM or Apple directly on this... Jim Davis ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193237 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:48:52 -, Martin Parry I like using this library: http://www.dithered.com/javascript/index.html (1k script that eases cross browser javascript development. i.e. instead of document.getElementById(id) you use gE(id) or, if you want a more feature rich library, I use this one too; http://cross-browser.com/ get it working in that later. I love using document.all (saves using getElementByID) but it just ain't available in other mainline browsers. Martin Parry Macromedia Certified Developer http://www.BeetrootStreet.co.uk -Original Message- From: Dave Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 February 2005 12:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions I've been doing intranet work for a while now, where the only browser we had to support was the one that came installed on company PCs. Have recent IE's oddities pretty well dealt with, but looking at the wider world, I'm wondering how folks manage development for multiple browsers. I'm thinking about relatively small shops that don't have enormous resources devoted solely to QA. Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Dave Merrill ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193238 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
-Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:55 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions On Feb 6, 2005, at 2:56 AM, Cutter wrote: - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? Personally, no. I use Virtual PC for PC and Linux and trust to the graces of friends for Macs (since I can't see spending the money and dedicating the space for one personally). Ahh... this has changed recently. You can buy an Mac mini for as little as $500, including OS X, Safari, iLife (iTunes, iPhoto, IMovie, iDVD), Java, Pearl, PHP, Apache, etc, pre-installed I've seen it - but the cost still seems high to me. Everybody talks about how it's only $500 but then immediately says that the base config is only and how you should upgrade to the more expensive model. ;^) it is 6.5 inch x 6.5 inch x 2 inches tall-- doesn't take up a lot of space Will fit below most Flat Panel displays.. It doesn't come with a KB mouse or display, but you can use the ones you already have with an inexpensive KVM switch: Unfortunately for me it's not that simple: there really aren't any inexpensive DVI KVMs yet so it would be either a new monitor, keyboard and mouse (with their associated space needs) or an expensive KVM. I'm also just down on KVMs lately... I had a four port KVM going to my workstation and three SFF Dev servers. With Virtual Server I've been able to reduce that to just two boxes: my workstation and a Virtual Server host. I was able to eliminate the KVM entirely by using Remote Desktop on XP/2003. This opened the door to being able (finally) to connection both of my monitors to DVI. (Actually that KVM and all its annoying, heavy cables is available if anybody wants it!) So at the moment my life is simple and my desk is clear. ;^) Don't get me wrong: I am VERY intrigued by the Mac Mini - I think it's a great machine. But still, I can't see spending less that $700 or so to get one set up here at home. And the good one would run into the $900 area. That still strikes me as a lot of a machine used only intermittedly for testing Safari. Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193239 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
On Feb 6, 2005, at 10:50 AM, Jim Davis wrote: Not so much for me. That $500 dollar machine is really barebones: you need to add things (like a monitor, keyboard and such) and it still requires dedicated space (us apartment dwellers have space at a premium). That doesn't even consider software (even just the OS upgrades which are pretty common and pretty pricey). But of course you'd have to pay for that with an emulator anyway so it doesn't really count. It is a good deal, but when you can either a fully outfitted PC for the same price or an equivalent bare-bones PC for less than half it's still not very attractive (at least to me). Even then I'm still not sure if that entry-level machine has the oomph to run multiple instances of the OS (for complete testing I'd really like to run OS 9, OS X, OS X Panther, etc separately). But it still seems that for me to get a good Mac testbed set up at home it'll be at least $700-$1000 (depending on how much the OSes cost) even with the Mac-Mini. And, of course, I'd still have to find a place for it. ;^) PearPC (http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/) is promising for this, but is still really flakey. I'd really like to see something from IBM or Apple directly on this... Jim Davis Jim Here's what i do to mitigate the costs. Enroll as an Apple Developer - Cost $500/year for that $500 you get 1) Pre-releases of OS X, OX Server Java, etc. OS X sells for $129 and OS X Server sells for $499 2) Releases of these when they become available (yearly for the past few years) 3) Developer Discount on 1 system accessories (monitors, etc) bought at one time. about 20% off 4) Monthly releases of software tools, etc 5) attendance discounts at the annual developers conference. In 2004, they gave us an additional hardware discount. So, it is not to difficult to recover the $500 with OS costs discounts... plus you have early releases/feedback, etc. In order to run multiple OS versions on a Mac, you must either: 1) Partition your HDD 2) Boot from external HDD Technically you could boot from an iPod (just an external HDD), but this has been prevented by apple software -- there is a growing demand, so I would expect to see Apple uncripple this or someone to hack it. The mini will run any version of OS X, including Tiger. 512 Meg is a good size of RAM as to the size-- 6.5 inches square 2 inches tall-- it easily fits under a flat panel display. You can stand it on its side to take even less space, Or even put it on the floor (on a hard surface). As I posted earlier, an inexpensive KVM switch will allow you to share KB, Display Mouse. Last year I bought 2 loaded iMac G5s -- one for me and one for my daughter's family of 5 they each have their own login (quick switch between them) , music games, etc. (Bought a mini, too, but saving this years discount for a new G5 laptop), Anyway, the 2 hardware discounts more than paid for the developer subscription: http://developer.apple.com/ Finally, I am subscribed to the Apple Server forum-- it is about as active as CF-Talk. Since BD supports their products for production on OS X, there is also a lot of OS X Server CFML activity on the BD list. The net: OS X Server plays very nicely with Win 'Nix boxes thru ethernet or wireless! And maybe to seal the deal -- the mini comes with all the iLife programs that are: easy to use ( and easy to control from external CF programs) work flawlessly with most any Cameras, VideoCams, etc. So, not only could the mini be a Developer machine, it can be a home media center to capture and present all the precious family moments. It;s so easy, anyone can do it (you don't have to do it all yourself).. To peak your technical interest, OS X comes with most open-source programming/scripting languages (plus some) pre-installed -- it's all right there. And if you like, you can easily create a RAID with your HDDs (one guy created a RAID with 4 iPod shuffles and a USB HUB). Or, if you have multiple OS X machines (er, video centers) you can interconnect them (wired or wireless) into a Grid share computing resources, when available-- the software is free! IMO, the things I've mentioned, more than compensate for the things that don't come in the mimi package. It's pretty cool and could easily run some web sites. web server, db server, J2ee server, cfml server -- all on a single box. And, you can easily set it to autorun these things at startup, or to reboot autorun after a system or power failure (built right into the OS UI, has been for years). HTH Dick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message:
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
On Feb 6, 2005, at 1:27 PM, Dick Applebaum wrote: To peak your technical interest, OS X comes with most open-source programming/scripting languages (plus some) pre-installed -- it's all right there. I can't believe I typed peak instead of pique (earlier on the BD list I typed PUBIC instead of Public,,, several times) Oh, there, I did it again :) ... reminds of Bernard Schwartz on CNN reporting the story about the man who said the F word, then saying Oh, I apologize for saying F___... Jim We're out of synch on our posts (takes me a long time to type... badly) Didn't mean to rehash some things like the KVM,. When the Mac mini was rumored, then announced, I monitored a forum that discussed a lot of these issues from both an Apple and PC user perspective: Some of the things that were attractive to non-apple people were (in no particular order): 1) Full OS included, not home version 2) Freedom from viruses, the need to buy virus software and the time to cleanse the system 3) A CD rw DVD r drive included (DVD rw available) 4) small 5) really, really quiet 6) wireless 811.b/g connection to stereo internet other computers (extra) 7) BlueTooth wireless (extra) for kb, mouse, phones, etc. 8) the iLife suite of programs (included) Retail $79, but worth a lot more if you bought the equivalent on a PC (which users said didn't work very well or with many cameras, etc) 9) The fact they could recommend these to non-computer friends and parents not have to reinstall retrain them every couple of months because of viruses complexities, That last was on almost everyones list. Dick... er, Richard ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193245 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
hell im getting one just to run flash dw on! until the day comes that we can have them on linux, that will do :) i was workin on new gf's g4 imac this weekend and its pretty friggin NICE! they have come along ways visually, which really is why i didnt like them yrs ago even from looks wise macs and linux make windows look like exactly what it is, old junkie. then about the virus and exploit part, yeah totally! i know i have problems with xp and u guys say its hardware but rebooting xp 7-10 times a day is pretty bad and i can boot into linux and leave it on 4 a week with no reboots says its not that. cfm in linux is doable but not flash mx 2004 dammit! and thats what makes the mac mini so intriguing, get my feet wet with it and see if i like it as much as linux and its a cool lil gadget! the only problem i see with them as well as the lil ipods and usb drives is its just a new way to transport viruses around and for ppl to get them through firewalls and such. but then again thats another reason to move away from the bug light (aka windows) so for $500 its worth it too me! did u see the last norton report where currently there have been 60,000 + windows exploits to date and 60 for mac linux, that pretty much sums it up. but im sure thats operator error as i was told last night lol so a ? to this is would it be feasable to install cfmx to a removable harddrive and be able to access it from diff puters? and if so would a mac be able to access it if its run on nfts? i know i can in linux but not sure bout the mac. dick, how is it coming with the new lil mac mp3 player/drive and running cfm on? From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 4:51 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions On Feb 6, 2005, at 1:27 PM, Dick Applebaum wrote: To peak your technical interest, OS X comes with most open-source programming/scripting languages (plus some) pre-installed -- it's all right there. I can't believe I typed peak instead of pique (earlier on the BD list I typed PUBIC instead of Public,,, several times) Oh, there, I did it again :) ... reminds of Bernard Schwartz on CNN reporting the story about the man who said the F word, then saying Oh, I apologize for saying F___... Jim We're out of synch on our posts (takes me a long time to type... badly) Didn't mean to rehash some things like the KVM,. When the Mac mini was rumored, then announced, I monitored a forum that discussed a lot of these issues from both an Apple and PC user perspective: Some of the things that were attractive to non-apple people were (in no particular order): 1) Full OS included, not home version 2) Freedom from viruses, the need to buy virus software and the time to cleanse the system 3) A CD rw DVD r drive included (DVD rw available) 4) small 5) really, really quiet 6) wireless 811.b/g connection to stereo internet other computers (extra) 7) BlueTooth wireless (extra) for kb, mouse, phones, etc. 8) the iLife suite of programs (included) Retail $79, but worth a lot more if you bought the equivalent on a PC (which users said didn't work very well or with many cameras, etc) 9) The fact they could recommend these to non-computer friends and parents not have to reinstall retrain them every couple of months because of viruses complexities, That last was on almost everyones list. Dick... er, Richard ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193247 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
-Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 4:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions On Feb 6, 2005, at 1:27 PM, Dick Applebaum wrote: Jim We're out of synch on our posts (takes me a long time to type... badly) No problem. ;^) Didn't mean to rehash some things like the KVM,. When the Mac mini was rumored, then announced, I monitored a forum that discussed a lot of these issues from both an Apple and PC user perspective: I actually think that the Mini look very nice - but in my case it would be exclusively for testing Safari. I'm personally very happy with my Windows PCs so I just wouldn't be using it for much else. As for the capabilities I agree completely that if you don't have them then it's a great deal - but I already do. Wireless LAN, Bluetooth, DVD burning, Home Theater connectivity, etc - I've already got it all and am happy with it. Since all of the people I support (parents, grandparents, children, etc) are all Windows as well - if somebody new to computing came along (and I didn't have to support them) I would definitely suggest it. My standing rule on this is always buy whatever the person you're going to be bugging for help has. The unit is small - but a keyboard, mouse and screen do take up space (and precious, precious power outlets). If I had my own home (or didn't have two kids) I could easily find room - but with four people living in an apartment with only one closet space is at a premium. Lastly it's also just that if I were to have an extra $500 to spend there are a lot of other things that would help more than having a Mac test bed. For me, personally, the cost just isn't worth the gain. That being said I'm DYING for a client to request Mac testing so that I can add a Mac Mini to the project cost. I really do think it's a slick little beastie... ;^) Jim Davis ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193248 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
On Feb 6, 2005, at 2:10 PM, dave wrote: dick, how is it coming with the new lil mac mp3 player/drive and running cfm on? Dave If the new mac mp3 player you refer to is the iPod shuffle, then great! shuffle is a memory stick in 2 sizes: 1/2 Gig: $99 1Gig: $150 I am told that's very competitive and it is almost a magical experience as a music player (too long to describe here) As to CF... We call it CFEE -- CFEverywhere Extended it includes a complete CF runtime enviromnent and a Developer environment, con sisting of: 1) Jetty (Servlet container and web server 2) BDJ2ee CFML engine It will work with CFMX, except CFMX won't run from CD and is not redistributable (you'd have to dload and install it your self 3) Derby (or other) db server and databases 4) Your CFML apps, source and/or compiled encrypted 5) Eclipse CFEclipse Everything is preinstalled under a single double-clickable icon. It has a very small footprint (AIR 14 Meg without Ecloipse CF eclipse). And, yes it runs just fine from an iPod. Phil Cruz is considering upping the price of his CFCDoc desktop CFML application from $29 to $129 and throwing in the iPod (along with some free iTMS songs). I posted this somewhere today, someone has ened created a RAID storage cluster out of a USB adapter for shuffles: http://www.wrightthisway.com/Articles/000154.html ...stranger than me... Dick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193250 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
On Feb 6, 2005, at 2:20 PM, Jim Davis wrote: I actually think that the Mini look very nice - but in my case it would be exclusively for testing Safari. I'm personally very happy with my Windows PCs so I just wouldn't be using it for much else. Prolly doesn't make much sense for you, then As for the capabilities I agree completely that if you don't have them then it's a great deal - but I already do. Wireless LAN, Bluetooth, DVD burning, Home Theater connectivity, etc - I've already got it all and am happy with it. Since all of the people I support (parents, grandparents, children, etc) are all Windows as well Yes, if you've don all the heavy lifting to create compatible systems, that do what you want need, it doesn't make sense to disrupt that with a foreign object-- that would just be extra work-- I'd come down with the same answer. - if somebody new to computing came along (and I didn't have to support them) I would definitely suggest it. My standing rule on this is always buy whatever the person you're going to be bugging for help has. Can't agree more. But from the perspective of giving support, I can claim I know nothing about PCs (Win, Linux, etc), though I do-- so sorry but I can't help you. Harder, though if you recommended the machine :) The unit is small - but a keyboard, mouse and screen do take up space (and precious, precious power outlets). If I had my own home (or didn't have two kids) I could easily find room - but with four people living in an apartment with only one closet space is at a premium. I have 3 grandkids 5,6 9. They currently all share the new iMac. I am considering building (I have a ShopSmith some woodworking tools) little shelves, boxes really, about 7 deep that screw on the wall hold the mini, 17 DVI TV, KB, power buss, some small speakers, better, headphones and some space for CD storage, Each kid's room would have an integrated DVD, player, TV, computer, Music, Internet access) all in one hopefully bullet-proof unit (physically electronically) Lastly it's also just that if I were to have an extra $500 to spend there are a lot of other things that would help more than having a Mac test bed. For me, personally, the cost just isn't worth the gain. Hear! Hear! That being said I'm DYING for a client to request Mac testing so that I can add a Mac Mini to the project cost. I really do think it's a slick little beastie... ;^) it is ! Dick P.S. it is Feb 6 and 60 degrees in the (SF) Bay area (doors and windows all open). I've been in (Bah-sten) Bay Area in Feb, slightly cooler! But we went to HAAVAAD and got a bugh-ugh at Big Elsie's :) Going to watch some football! Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193251 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
you wanna be my grandpa? haha yeah its the ipod shuffle i was refering to and yeah thats a good price! i bought an irivers 128mb one for the xmas plane rides for $50 but normally they ar $99, so the apple ones are a bargain concidering the quality! the irivers is supposed to be real good but i listen to the gf's ipod and the ipod is better (a model thats a complete techie! SCOR!!) shes got all the cool stuff!! what your are doing intrigues me because i will be travelling and fishing this summer all over the place and would be great to take along for demos as i do flyshop sites. i'd pay the $129 for that package! since id be buying the thing anyway just deduct that from the $400 i wont be paying for shorthorn ;) From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 6:00 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions On Feb 6, 2005, at 2:10 PM, dave wrote: dick, how is it coming with the new lil mac mp3 player/drive and running cfm on? Dave If the new mac mp3 player you refer to is the iPod shuffle, then great! shuffle is a memory stick in 2 sizes: 1/2 Gig: $99 1Gig: $150 I am told that's very competitive and it is almost a magical experience as a music player (too long to describe here) As to CF... We call it CFEE -- CFEverywhere Extended it includes a complete CF runtime enviromnent and a Developer environment, con sisting of: 1) Jetty (Servlet container and web server 2) BDJ2ee CFML engine It will work with CFMX, except CFMX won't run from CD and is not redistributable (you'd have to dload and install it your self 3) Derby (or other) db server and databases 4) Your CFML apps, source and/or compiled encrypted 5) Eclipse CFEclipse Everything is preinstalled under a single double-clickable icon. It has a very small footprint (AIR 14 Meg without Ecloipse CF eclipse). And, yes it runs just fine from an iPod. Phil Cruz is considering upping the price of his CFCDoc desktop CFML application from $29 to $129 and throwing in the iPod (along with some free iTMS songs). I posted this somewhere today, someone has ened created a RAID storage cluster out of a USB adapter for shuffles: http://www.wrightthisway.com/Articles/000154.html ...stranger than me... Dick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193253 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
On Feb 6, 2005, at 3:46 PM, dave wrote: you wanna be my grandpa? haha Ya! You're on timeout... go sit on the stairs. yeah its the ipod shuffle i was refering to and yeah thats a good price! i bought an irivers 128mb one for the xmas plane rides for $50 but normally they ar $99, so the apple ones are a bargain concidering the quality! the irivers is supposed to be real good but i listen to the gf's ipod and the ipod is better (a model thats a complete techie! SCOR!!) shes got all the cool stuff!! what your are doing intrigues me because i will be travelling and fishing this summer all over the place and would be great to take along for demos as i do flyshop sites. i'd pay the $129 for that package! since id be buying the thing anyway Dave Actually, as a developer, you don't need to pay anything everything except the CFML engine is free, open-source. The BDj2ee is free to developers, you just can't redistro it I currently run several versions of BD CFMX under CFEverywhere for compatibility testing. Everytime there is a new release, I just deploy it and update the Jetty CFML file to reflect it-- 10-15 minutes tops! It (the memory stick) becomes awfully hard to *not* justify. just deduct that from the $400 i wont be paying for shorthorn ;) Well, if you run on a Mac, you won't have to wait for longtooth -- The Tiger is coming in the next few months... and you know what a sleek, sinewy Tiger will do when he sees a cow walk by (if he doesn't die of hunger/boredom first... ... just outrun him :) Dick From: Dick Applebaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 6:00 PM To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions On Feb 6, 2005, at 2:10 PM, dave wrote: dick, how is it coming with the new lil mac mp3 player/drive and running cfm on? Dave If the new mac mp3 player you refer to is the iPod shuffle, then great! shuffle is a memory stick in 2 sizes: 1/2 Gig: $99 1Gig: $150 I am told that's very competitive and it is almost a magical experience as a music player (too long to describe here) As to CF... We call it CFEE -- CFEverywhere Extended it includes a complete CF runtime enviromnent and a Developer environment, con sisting of: 1) Jetty (Servlet container and web server 2) BDJ2ee CFML engine It will work with CFMX, except CFMX won't run from CD and is not redistributable (you'd have to dload and install it your self 3) Derby (or other) db server and databases 4) Your CFML apps, source and/or compiled encrypted 5) Eclipse CFEclipse Everything is preinstalled under a single double-clickable icon. It has a very small footprint (AIR 14 Meg without Ecloipse CF eclipse). And, yes it runs just fine from an iPod. Phil Cruz is considering upping the price of his CFCDoc desktop CFML application from $29 to $129 and throwing in the iPod (along with some free iTMS songs). I posted this somewhere today, someone has ened created a RAID storage cluster out of a USB adapter for shuffles: http://www.wrightthisway.com/Articles/000154.html ...stranger than me... Dick ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193254 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
[SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
I've been doing intranet work for a while now, where the only browser we had to support was the one that came installed on company PCs. Have recent IE's oddities pretty well dealt with, but looking at the wider world, I'm wondering how folks manage development for multiple browsers. I'm thinking about relatively small shops that don't have enormous resources devoted solely to QA. Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Dave Merrill ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193169 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
I do all development for FireFox, then fix the little things from IE and NetScape. Thats the only ones I deal with honestly. Dave Merrill wrote: I've been doing intranet work for a while now, where the only browser we had to support was the one that came installed on company PCs. Have recent IE's oddities pretty well dealt with, but looking at the wider world, I'm wondering how folks manage development for multiple browsers. I'm thinking about relatively small shops that don't have enormous resources devoted solely to QA. Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Dave Merrill ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193170 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Same here, since that covers probably over 97% of the market unless you develop in an area that you know has a very high % of say opera users or some other lesser used browser I found if you can get it to look decent in firefox, generally (with some exceptions) it'll be good in IE .. can't comment on how they display in the other browsers for the reason stated above -Original Message- From: ColdFusion Developer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:46 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions I do all development for FireFox, then fix the little things from IE and NetScape. Thats the only ones I deal with honestly. Dave Merrill wrote: I've been doing intranet work for a while now, where the only browser we had to support was the one that came installed on company PCs. Have recent IE's oddities pretty well dealt with, but looking at the wider world, I'm wondering how folks manage development for multiple browsers. I'm thinking about relatively small shops that don't have enormous resources devoted solely to QA. Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Dave Merrill ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193171 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Using CSS for site layout is one sure fire way of making sure your sites look consistent across most browsers.. If you use DreamWeaver and have a bit of time to get your head around CSS layouts then create a new page using the CSS template and see how it hangs together - basically all done with DIV's. I dipped my toe in the water the other day, created my first CSS only site and was stunned when trying it in each browser that it looked IDENTICAL !! Another by product of doing things this way was that when I tested the site using the W3C CSS and html validator it got a perfect score. Superb! As far as any JavaScript stuff goes, I agree with ColdFusionDeveloper (the man with no name) - Try it in a non-ie browser first then fiddle to get it working in that later. I love using document.all (saves using getElementByID) but it just ain't available in other mainline browsers. Search engines and accessibility tools such as screen readers for partially sighted users benefit from using CSS too as there's no masses of nested tables to confuse the issue. Martin Parry Macromedia Certified Developer http://www.BeetrootStreet.co.uk -Original Message- From: Dave Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 February 2005 12:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions I've been doing intranet work for a while now, where the only browser we had to support was the one that came installed on company PCs. Have recent IE's oddities pretty well dealt with, but looking at the wider world, I'm wondering how folks manage development for multiple browsers. I'm thinking about relatively small shops that don't have enormous resources devoted solely to QA. Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Dave Merrill ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193172 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
It should be noted that Martin's actually talking about getting strong enough with CSS to understand when you'll need certain workarounds, what styles will work when and port across to other browsers, etc. He's also bringing up understanding of Standards (ref: http://print.google.com/print?id=RBtltKDulrcCprev=http://print.google.c om/print%3Fq%3Djeffrey%2Bzeldmanpg=1sig=yKmjRKvg-LB3bsO5Yg4DBoEP4Ow Designing with Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman), and I think the approach is a little pie in the sky. Ultimately, he's mostly correct, but to be fair, not entirely and I don't want to turn this into an argument/back and forth discussion--but everthing that you need to do will have a lot of factors, such as complexity, skill sets of other developers, etc. While XHTML CSS standards (per Zeldman, at least) are an absolutely phenominal notion, I do not believe that their usage is entirely something logical in the marketplace as of yet--but that doesn't mean we shouldn't all strive to understand better, it just means that the likelyhood of finding yourself in a project that works that way would be rather.. Diminished. And yes, the argument is there for cost savings, etc. but the first time you find yourself spending 2 days trying to make something work across browsers using only XHTML and CSS when you could have performed the same task with a table in 2 minutes... Well, let's just say that the cost benefit starts to also... Diminish. It's a noble effort and a great, great idea and it's great to have people driving for it, but until these types of standards become mainstream and we're all learning them as fundamentals, getting there will be slow going. But please, take my comments with a grain of salt. I've found that there are many things you can do by knowing standards better to improve development--even if you don't use them 100%. At the same time, take anyone else's comment with a grain of salt that promise you all of this--but wait, there's more! If you call in now, you'll also get this great knife that can cut through aluminum cans--and more. Simply put, it's just not all the way there, but getting another person on board always helps. Russ -Original Message- From: Martin Parry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 6:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions Using CSS for site layout is one sure fire way of making sure your sites look consistent across most browsers.. If you use DreamWeaver and have a bit of time to get your head around CSS layouts then create a new page using the CSS template and see how it hangs together - basically all done with DIV's. I dipped my toe in the water the other day, created my first CSS only site and was stunned when trying it in each browser that it looked IDENTICAL !! Another by product of doing things this way was that when I tested the site using the W3C CSS and html validator it got a perfect score. Superb! As far as any JavaScript stuff goes, I agree with ColdFusionDeveloper (the man with no name) - Try it in a non-ie browser first then fiddle to get it working in that later. I love using document.all (saves using getElementByID) but it just ain't available in other mainline browsers. Search engines and accessibility tools such as screen readers for partially sighted users benefit from using CSS too as there's no masses of nested tables to confuse the issue. Martin Parry Macromedia Certified Developer http://www.BeetrootStreet.co.uk -Original Message- From: Dave Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 February 2005 12:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions I've been doing intranet work for a while now, where the only browser we had to support was the one that came installed on company PCs. Have recent IE's oddities pretty well dealt with, but looking at the wider world, I'm wondering how folks manage development for multiple browsers. I'm thinking about relatively small shops that don't have enormous resources devoted solely to QA. Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Dave Merrill
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Russ.. I agree with much of what you say... when I first started playing with CSS and even now, I spent and could spend incredible amounts of time trying to get a CSS layout to look right when maybe not as in vogue, I end up doing the project using tables in about an hour ... So I'm very careful with CSS, not to get into having to worry about this hack and that workaround ... if tables work easily and display well, then tables it is. When the cross browser standards are developed (which who knows when that will happen), then maybe css will be the best way to go all the time -Original Message- From: Russ Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 8:21 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions It should be noted that Martin's actually talking about getting strong enough with CSS to understand when you'll need certain workarounds, what styles will work when and port across to other browsers, etc. He's also bringing up understanding of Standards (ref: http://print.google.com/print?id=RBtltKDulrcCprev=http://print.google.c om/print%3Fq%3Djeffrey%2Bzeldmanpg=1sig=yKmjRKvg-LB3bsO5Yg4DBoEP4Ow Designing with Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman), and I think the approach is a little pie in the sky. Ultimately, he's mostly correct, but to be fair, not entirely and I don't want to turn this into an argument/back and forth discussion--but everthing that you need to do will have a lot of factors, such as complexity, skill sets of other developers, etc. While XHTML CSS standards (per Zeldman, at least) are an absolutely phenominal notion, I do not believe that their usage is entirely something logical in the marketplace as of yet--but that doesn't mean we shouldn't all strive to understand better, it just means that the likelyhood of finding yourself in a project that works that way would be rather.. Diminished. And yes, the argument is there for cost savings, etc. but the first time you find yourself spending 2 days trying to make something work across browsers using only XHTML and CSS when you could have performed the same task with a table in 2 minutes... Well, let's just say that the cost benefit starts to also... Diminish. It's a noble effort and a great, great idea and it's great to have people driving for it, but until these types of standards become mainstream and we're all learning them as fundamentals, getting there will be slow going. But please, take my comments with a grain of salt. I've found that there are many things you can do by knowing standards better to improve development--even if you don't use them 100%. At the same time, take anyone else's comment with a grain of salt that promise you all of this--but wait, there's more! If you call in now, you'll also get this great knife that can cut through aluminum cans--and more. Simply put, it's just not all the way there, but getting another person on board always helps. Russ -Original Message- From: Martin Parry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 6:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions Using CSS for site layout is one sure fire way of making sure your sites look consistent across most browsers.. If you use DreamWeaver and have a bit of time to get your head around CSS layouts then create a new page using the CSS template and see how it hangs together - basically all done with DIV's. I dipped my toe in the water the other day, created my first CSS only site and was stunned when trying it in each browser that it looked IDENTICAL !! Another by product of doing things this way was that when I tested the site using the W3C CSS and html validator it got a perfect score. Superb! As far as any JavaScript stuff goes, I agree with ColdFusionDeveloper (the man with no name) - Try it in a non-ie browser first then fiddle to get it working in that later. I love using document.all (saves using getElementByID) but it just ain't available in other mainline browsers. Search engines and accessibility tools such as screen readers for partially sighted users benefit from using CSS too as there's no masses of nested tables to confuse the issue. Martin Parry Macromedia Certified Developer http://www.BeetrootStreet.co.uk -Original Message- From: Dave Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 February 2005 12:42 To: CF-Talk Subject: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions I've been doing intranet work for a while now, where the only browser we had to support was the one that came installed on company PCs. Have recent IE's oddities pretty well dealt with, but looking at the wider world, I'm wondering how folks manage development for multiple browsers. I'm thinking about relatively small shops that don't have enormous resources devoted solely to QA. Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
I'm shocked and aghast !! I'm nearly always entirely right ;) I agree with your comments about skills - I have been fiddling with the software development thing for .. ahem.. about 18 years or more :( and there's always something new to learn. It just takes time, even for a seasoned pro in one field - to learn, try and evaluate new and interesting technologies, tools and standards. Time is a very limited resource, and I personally learn things as and when I need to. My experience with producing this site (in about a day including learning the way the DIV's and CSS hung together) was a good one and I'm certainly going to be trying more. I, as I'm sure the vast majority of developers are lazy, and anything that can make work easier with less arsing around can only be good. Oh, let's not forget the end-user benefiting :) Martin Parry Macromedia Certified Developer http://www.BeetrootStreet.co.uk -Original Message- From: Russ Unger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 February 2005 13:21 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions Ultimately, he's mostly correct, but to be fair, not entirely and I don't want to turn this into an argument/back and forth discussion--but ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193179 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Current windows versions only? Dave Merrill I do all development for FireFox, then fix the little things from IE and NetScape. Thats the only ones I deal with honestly. Dave Merrill wrote: I've been doing intranet work for a while now, where the only browser we had to support was the one that came installed on company PCs. Have recent IE's oddities pretty well dealt with, but looking at the wider world, I'm wondering how folks manage development for multiple browsers. I'm thinking about relatively small shops that don't have enormous resources devoted solely to QA. Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Dave Merrill ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193180 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
- Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? Sometimes, you have to. Mozilla sticks closer to the standard and IE has some oddities for which you must find workarounds. - Are you coding to W3C standards? If you need some nice functionalities and powerfull client interface, I would say this is almost impossible: the W3C standards are just too dumb. Even Mozilla has added features identical or similar to those in MSIE and they are not in the standards. The problem with the W3C is that the documentation is even worse than the standards. At Mozilla.org, they claim they don't need documentation, because Mozilla strictly sticks to the standards and they refer to the W3C docs. First it is not true, because Mozilla has plenty of features not in the standards, including HTML editing functions compatible with MSIE, and this is not documented, secondly the W3C docs are simply unreadable, written in a completely abstrus meta language, with no example ever. I wish there was a standard about how to write documentation about standards,... hmmm there is probabily one, and that's why the W3C stinks so much ;-) Which one(s)? Ah ah, that's a damn good question. When you visit the W3C docs pages, there are always half a dozen of versions, drafts, proposal, etc. You never know which one is THE standard, nor you can know WHICH one Mozilla is so proud to stick to. How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? If you stick to the standards, you'll probabily be more compatible, but with much more effort and less power. - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? Ok, have a look at the IE emulator for Mozilla: http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/ieemu/ I know I will make Moz fans mad, but Mozilla is missing quite a few handy tools available in IE. However it has facilities that allow to emulate them. Using this emulator, one can write IE code that will run on Mozilla as well, even the ubiquitous document.all collection. (not that I'm in favour od the use of it, but it could save lots of hours of work just making old scripts compatible). - do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? You can forget about anything below 5.5: according to http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm IE 4 is less than 1%, and IE3 is not even listed. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193181 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
My two cents... I develop with Firefox and its validator extension, then fiddle with this and that for IE. Everyone should use Firefox for their browsing and I recommend it to most of my clients. Side note: I also like Thunderbird for email. It's proven to be preety nifty so far for me. Will ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193183 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Dave Merrill wrote: - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? No. But I might serve additional ones for certain browsers (IE). - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? XHTML 1, CSS Level 1 and WCAG 1 are usually in the specs. - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? Windows and OpenBSD. - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Firefox 1, IE 6 and Lynx 2.8.3. Jochem ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193187 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Thanks for the breakdown Jochem. It seems like folks aren't paying a lot of attention to macs. Here around Boston, some biotech companies need mixed platform support, including macs. Not a lot of linux/unix, at least on the desktop where the browsers live. Ironically, I used to be a mac-only guy, but haven't owned one for years. Dave Merrill Dave Merrill wrote: - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? No. But I might serve additional ones for certain browsers (IE). - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? XHTML 1, CSS Level 1 and WCAG 1 are usually in the specs. - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? Windows and OpenBSD. - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Firefox 1, IE 6 and Lynx 2.8.3. Jochem ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193188 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
-Original Message- From: Dave Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions Specifically... - Do you serve different style sheets or pages depending on the browser and version? How many? - Are you coding to W3C standards? Which one(s)? How much does that actually help your pages be more universally compatible? Whenever possible code to standards then change (and comment!) for browser issues. - What's an accurate, up to date source of info on html, css, and js capabilities and quirks for a lot of different browsers and versions? The JavaScript and DHTML guides at MSDN.microsoft.com are pretty good and inform you of which features are in which specs (but not how to code for the other browsers). - It doesn't appear that you can have multiple versions of IE installed on the same machine. If you have to support them, do you actually have separate machines whose only purpose is to be equipped with IE 4, 5, and 6, maybe even 3? How else can you test? MS (formerly Connectix) Virtual PC or VMWare are absolute god sends for this. Using them you can install any x86 OS (all DOS/Windows, Linux, BeOS, Lindows, etc) to software only Virtual PCs. You can then copy virtual PCs (which are really just files on your hard disk) to easily create test platforms. For example you might install Windows 2000 to a virtual PC. You then make a copy of that and install IE 5.5 then another copy and install IE 6.0. Now you can run all of them as windows on your host machine for testing. The only thing you can't do (since this is x86 emulator) is test Mac OSs. There's still no really good solution for that other than getting a Mac and then you're still left with multi-booting or multiple machines for testing multiple OSes (I REALLY WANT a PPC emulator!) - Do you have mac, linux and pc browser test machines? Personally, no. I use Virtual PC for PC and Linux and trust to the graces of friends for Macs (since I can't see spending the money and dedicating the space for one personally). - For general public sites, what do you consider a reasonable list of browsers and versions that you need to support? Depends on the site... right now I would say on the PC IE 6, 5.5 and 5 and Firefox 1.0 as browsers should be the minimum. However you might want to add earlier versions of Mozilla and IE-based browsers. AOL testing would be good as well, if you can, although it still uses the IE engine it does modify it. One the Mac it looks like IE 5.5 is losing ground steadily to Safari while on Linux Firefox seems to be king. Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193189 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: [SOT] Supporting multiple browsers and versions
Same here... I've lurked around some CSS-related newsgroups and even some of the die-hard CSS fans still use tables for layout and dress it up with CSS. I NEVER put in a hack. NEVER! I have never needed anything that bad to use a hack. M!ke So I'm very careful with CSS, not to get into having to worry about this hack and that workaround ... if tables work easily and display well, then tables it is. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:193199 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
