Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Don't worry G, it didn't make sense to me either. In my memory, when IE6 was released it's implementations of HTML and CSS didn't meet the 'standards' set forth by the existing W3C specs either. If you were writing to standards you were writing it for the brand new Firefox browser, then writing hacks to also make it work in IE (kind of like we have to do now). This conversation is going nowhere. The point is, closed system development is still very common because there are still companies and governments that can not/will not move beyond IE6. This is a fact, period. Although these organizations will, one day, upgrade, the reality of it is that pushing HTML5 adoption in this current environment is still a pipe dream in anything other than a consumer market. And *applications*, like those we develop day to day, are written more for internal enterprise and government users more than general consumers (not always the case, and an assumption on my part based on my experience). The one advantage we have today over the past is that we have cross browser libraries like JQueryUI and Ext JS, and technologies like Flex (in orgs that allow the Flash player, of which their are still many that do not). In my last gig, we had a large CMS that served up sites for the auto-dealer industry. This had two pieces, the CMS (administered by the dealerships) and the sites themselves. Because dealerships had internal applications they would not replace, our application (the CMS) had to be supported in IE6, even though the sites themselves went out to the general public. If we didn't support IE6 then we wouldn't have those clients, which would have cost us millions in annual revenue. Tell me about the markets you serve? And how is that vertical different? Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/17/2011 3:29 PM, Gerald Guido wrote: Common sense says: write to standards, Color me stupid but I am not understanding what that means, Write to standards. I ran across the same thing here on this page. http://paulirish.com/2011/browser-market-pollution-iex-is-the-new-ie6/ Corporate users should be testing their applications against standards, not browser version numbers. What does that mean, testing their applications against standards? Any elucidation, or clarification would be greatly appreciated. Many TIA, G! On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Judah McAuleyju...@wiredotter.com wrote: Oh, I agree Russ, but you were making absolutist statements, not using common sense. Common sense says: write to standards, tweak as required for individual customer needs, plan periodic refreshes to better take advantage of improving/changing technology. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Russ Michaelsr...@michaels.me.uk wrote: you have to use a bit of common sense here, obviously every app in the world was not written by you and does not work the same as yours, if they did then this thread would not exist nor would the previous comments. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Judah McAuleyju...@wiredotter.com wrote: Not at all true, Russ. Here's a website that I wrote in 1994 that is archived (archive.org only has it back through 1996) that works just fine in Chrome 16, IE 9 and FireFox 8 on a Windows 7 box. http://web.archive.org/web/19961018091409/http://babel.uoregon.edu/yamada/guides.html None of those browsers even existed when I started that in 94. I was targeting HTML specs and, lo and behold, still works fine 15+ years later on browsers I could not have imagined at the time. Judah On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Russ Michaelsr...@michaels.me.uk wrote: not exactly true. If you have a 5 year old app that was written for the browsers of the time, it wont matter whether it was written for just 1 browser or for all browsers, it will still be out of date now and will still need updating for the latest browsers. If however it was only written to work for say IE then it only needs to be fixed for IE, much less work/time and cost. Making an app cross browser does not magically make it future proof. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348804 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Adobe Abandons Flex
I'm new to this thread but has anyone having issues with IE tried this: http://code.google.com/p/html5shiv/ We started using it recently and it rocks Sorry if this is a repeat or if I'm stating the bleeding obvious :) ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348805 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
many folks don't have experience working with intranet apps, so may not be aware of how it works. In these situations there is usually no reason to worry about cross browser compatibility as everyone in an organisation will use the same browser, in fact it is usually a requirement and in many orgs you are not allowed to install other software on your PC. So it is a requirement only to make things work on the standardised browser. The default browser has always been IE in most big orgs, and this is thus what most intranets are developed for, thus why you end up with many orgs stuck on an old browser, especially government depts as it takes them forever to get around to updating their apps, as they will have to put it out to tender to their framework providers, review the applications, decide who will do the job, create a spec, yada yada. -- Russ Michaels www.bluethunderinternet.com : Business hosting services solutions www.cfmldeveloper.com : ColdFusion developer community www.michaels.me.uk : my blog www.cfsearch.com : ColdFusion search engine sky ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348776 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: there is usually no reason to worry about cross browser compatibility as everyone in an organisation will use the same browser, [weeps] We are writing a huge intranet app for a client, who has no such requirement, so we have to support IE6+, Fireworks, Chrome, Safari. There is more time spent on x-browser tweaking than writing CF code ... -- mac jordan www.kestrel.org | www.reactivecooking.com | www.jordan-cats.org | www.georgethefish.com twitter: @ramtops ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348777 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
lol, i guess your one of the unlucky ones :-) On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:10 AM, mac jordan mac.jor...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: there is usually no reason to worry about cross browser compatibility as everyone in an organisation will use the same browser, [weeps] We are writing a huge intranet app for a client, who has no such requirement, so we have to support IE6+, Fireworks, Chrome, Safari. There is more time spent on x-browser tweaking than writing CF code ... -- mac jordan www.kestrel.org | www.reactivecooking.com | www.jordan-cats.org | www.georgethefish.com twitter: @ramtops ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348779 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Many companies will make policy on standard browsers. They write those standards in the specs for applications when they buy or write them. Back during the time of IE6, it was commonly the standard browser for businesses so developers created applications using IE6 only techniques like COM and/or ActiveX objects. This is still happening. Making applications work in all browsers is a specification that adds to costs. We might think that apps working in all browsers is a no-brainer, but many people in businesses look at it differently. -- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-austin/8/a4/60 Twitter: http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek Google+: https://plus.google.com/117357905892731200369 ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348783 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
The biggest issue is the insanely long ridiculous vetting process.. each agency has its own and they take forever... im writing an app right now against IE 8. On Nov 17, 2011 6:29 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: lol, i guess your one of the unlucky ones :-) On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:10 AM, mac jordan mac.jor...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: there is usually no reason to worry about cross browser compatibility as everyone in an organisation will use the same browser, [weeps] We are writing a huge intranet app for a client, who has no such requirement, so we have to support IE6+, Fireworks, Chrome, Safari. There is more time spent on x-browser tweaking than writing CF code ... -- mac jordan www.kestrel.org | www.reactivecooking.com | www.jordan-cats.org | www.georgethefish.com twitter: @ramtops ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348784 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Marrying themselves to proprietary technology was wrong 15 years ago, and it's still wrong now. Unfortunately for the taxpayers and consumers, we're the ones who have to pick up the tab when the obsolete tech bites them. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Roger Austin raust...@nc.rr.com wrote: Many companies will make policy on standard browsers. They write those standards in the specs for applications when they buy or write them. Back during the time of IE6, it was commonly the standard browser for businesses so developers created applications using IE6 only techniques like COM and/or ActiveX objects. This is still happening. Making applications work in all browsers is a specification that adds to costs. We might think that apps working in all browsers is a no-brainer, but many people in businesses look at it differently. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348786 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Not the cost of free IE (or that apps only run on IE6 IMHO). It's the cost of the labour to do the upgrade and then the cost of the labour to fix all the network installs that crapped out or otherwise caused users grief. Major disruption to a large organization has LOTS of cost ;-) Cheers On Wed, 2011-11-16 at 17:22 -0800, Maureen wrote: This makes no sense to me. I can understand a business or government office being slow to upgrade to new software if cost were involved, but IE upgrades are free, and would certainly be more secure and productive. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Dan Crouch stario...@yahoo.com wrote: Just for a frame of reference, the IRS still has almost 80k employees on IE6. You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348787 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
to move beyond IE 8 would require a new OS, at least as far as the feds go would mean a new machine I know parts of the DOD are on Win 7. I wish that there was a single clearing house that vetted for everyone.. oh..wait that would mean government efficiency and that wont happen. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Bryan Stevenson br...@electricedgesystems.com wrote: Not the cost of free IE (or that apps only run on IE6 IMHO). It's the cost of the labour to do the upgrade and then the cost of the labour to fix all the network installs that crapped out or otherwise caused users grief. Major disruption to a large organization has LOTS of cost ;-) Cheers On Wed, 2011-11-16 at 17:22 -0800, Maureen wrote: This makes no sense to me. I can understand a business or government office being slow to upgrade to new software if cost were involved, but IE upgrades are free, and would certainly be more secure and productive. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Dan Crouch stario...@yahoo.com wrote: Just for a frame of reference, the IRS still has almost 80k employees on IE6. You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348788 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:10 AM, mac jordan mac.jor...@gmail.com wrote: [weeps] We are writing a huge intranet app for a client, who has no such requirement, so we have to support IE6+, Fireworks, Chrome, Safari. There is more time spent on x-browser tweaking than writing CF code ... Don't use javascript and go back to tables :-) ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348789 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Try Flex ;-) On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 11:10 +, mac jordan wrote: On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: there is usually no reason to worry about cross browser compatibility as everyone in an organisation will use the same browser, [weeps] We are writing a huge intranet app for a client, who has no such requirement, so we have to support IE6+, Fireworks, Chrome, Safari. There is more time spent on x-browser tweaking than writing CF code ... -- Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348790 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Marrying themselves to proprietary technology was wrong 15 years ago, and it's still wrong now. Unfortunately for the taxpayers and consumers, we're the ones who have to pick up the tab when the obsolete tech bites them. Blanket statements like this are often wrong in specific situations. That's the nature of blanket statements. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348791 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Nevertheless, I stand by it, and my government clients aren't the ones stuck on IE6. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Marrying themselves to proprietary technology was wrong 15 years ago, and it's still wrong now. Unfortunately for the taxpayers and consumers, we're the ones who have to pick up the tab when the obsolete tech bites them. Blanket statements like this are often wrong in specific situations. That's the nature of blanket statements. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348792 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
not exactly true. If you have a 5 year old app that was written for the browsers of the time, it wont matter whether it was written for just 1 browser or for all browsers, it will still be out of date now and will still need updating for the latest browsers. If however it was only written to work for say IE then it only needs to be fixed for IE, much less work/time and cost. Making an app cross browser does not magically make it future proof. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Maureen mamamaur...@gmail.com wrote: Marrying themselves to proprietary technology was wrong 15 years ago, and it's still wrong now. Unfortunately for the taxpayers and consumers, we're the ones who have to pick up the tab when the obsolete tech bites them. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Roger Austin raust...@nc.rr.com wrote: Many companies will make policy on standard browsers. They write those standards in the specs for applications when they buy or write them. Back during the time of IE6, it was commonly the standard browser for businesses so developers created applications using IE6 only techniques like COM and/or ActiveX objects. This is still happening. Making applications work in all browsers is a specification that adds to costs. We might think that apps working in all browsers is a no-brainer, but many people in businesses look at it differently. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348793 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Not at all true, Russ. Here's a website that I wrote in 1994 that is archived (archive.org only has it back through 1996) that works just fine in Chrome 16, IE 9 and FireFox 8 on a Windows 7 box. http://web.archive.org/web/19961018091409/http://babel.uoregon.edu/yamada/guides.html None of those browsers even existed when I started that in 94. I was targeting HTML specs and, lo and behold, still works fine 15+ years later on browsers I could not have imagined at the time. Judah On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: not exactly true. If you have a 5 year old app that was written for the browsers of the time, it wont matter whether it was written for just 1 browser or for all browsers, it will still be out of date now and will still need updating for the latest browsers. If however it was only written to work for say IE then it only needs to be fixed for IE, much less work/time and cost. Making an app cross browser does not magically make it future proof. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348794 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Making an app cross browser does not magically make it future proof. I have had JS/CSS widgets break going from one verison of IE to the next. So we all agree... MS has made some crappy browsers, the gov't agencies do foolish things, like consistency, are slow to change and inefficient. And water is wet. G! On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: Making an app cross browser does not magically make it future proof. -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com -- We all shine on. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348795 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
you have to use a bit of common sense here, obviously every app in the world was not written by you and does not work the same as yours, if they did then this thread would not exist nor would the previous comments. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: Not at all true, Russ. Here's a website that I wrote in 1994 that is archived (archive.org only has it back through 1996) that works just fine in Chrome 16, IE 9 and FireFox 8 on a Windows 7 box. http://web.archive.org/web/19961018091409/http://babel.uoregon.edu/yamada/guides.html None of those browsers even existed when I started that in 94. I was targeting HTML specs and, lo and behold, still works fine 15+ years later on browsers I could not have imagined at the time. Judah On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: not exactly true. If you have a 5 year old app that was written for the browsers of the time, it wont matter whether it was written for just 1 browser or for all browsers, it will still be out of date now and will still need updating for the latest browsers. If however it was only written to work for say IE then it only needs to be fixed for IE, much less work/time and cost. Making an app cross browser does not magically make it future proof. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348796 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Oh, I agree Russ, but you were making absolutist statements, not using common sense. Common sense says: write to standards, tweak as required for individual customer needs, plan periodic refreshes to better take advantage of improving/changing technology. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: you have to use a bit of common sense here, obviously every app in the world was not written by you and does not work the same as yours, if they did then this thread would not exist nor would the previous comments. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: Not at all true, Russ. Here's a website that I wrote in 1994 that is archived (archive.org only has it back through 1996) that works just fine in Chrome 16, IE 9 and FireFox 8 on a Windows 7 box. http://web.archive.org/web/19961018091409/http://babel.uoregon.edu/yamada/guides.html None of those browsers even existed when I started that in 94. I was targeting HTML specs and, lo and behold, still works fine 15+ years later on browsers I could not have imagined at the time. Judah On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: not exactly true. If you have a 5 year old app that was written for the browsers of the time, it wont matter whether it was written for just 1 browser or for all browsers, it will still be out of date now and will still need updating for the latest browsers. If however it was only written to work for say IE then it only needs to be fixed for IE, much less work/time and cost. Making an app cross browser does not magically make it future proof. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348797 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
you have to use a bit of common sense here, obviously every app in the world was not written by you and does not work the same as yours, if they did then this thread would not exist nor would the previous comments. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: true, I have numerous old sites that were developed to be cross browser many years ago, and they mostly still work, but they need small fixes in all the major browsers every so often. However the intranet apps I have done have generally been for IE only and take much less work to fix. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348798 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Common sense says: write to standards, Color me stupid but I am not understanding what that means, Write to standards. I ran across the same thing here on this page. http://paulirish.com/2011/browser-market-pollution-iex-is-the-new-ie6/ Corporate users should be testing their applications against standards, not browser version numbers. What does that mean, testing their applications against standards? Any elucidation, or clarification would be greatly appreciated. Many TIA, G! On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: Oh, I agree Russ, but you were making absolutist statements, not using common sense. Common sense says: write to standards, tweak as required for individual customer needs, plan periodic refreshes to better take advantage of improving/changing technology. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: you have to use a bit of common sense here, obviously every app in the world was not written by you and does not work the same as yours, if they did then this thread would not exist nor would the previous comments. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: Not at all true, Russ. Here's a website that I wrote in 1994 that is archived (archive.org only has it back through 1996) that works just fine in Chrome 16, IE 9 and FireFox 8 on a Windows 7 box. http://web.archive.org/web/19961018091409/http://babel.uoregon.edu/yamada/guides.html None of those browsers even existed when I started that in 94. I was targeting HTML specs and, lo and behold, still works fine 15+ years later on browsers I could not have imagined at the time. Judah On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: not exactly true. If you have a 5 year old app that was written for the browsers of the time, it wont matter whether it was written for just 1 browser or for all browsers, it will still be out of date now and will still need updating for the latest browsers. If however it was only written to work for say IE then it only needs to be fixed for IE, much less work/time and cost. Making an app cross browser does not magically make it future proof. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348799 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Adobe Abandons Flex
HTML 4.01 is a standard, HTML 5 is an emerging standard. What you don't want to do is code to IE6, IE7, IE8, FireFox, Chrome, unless you are directed that you have no choice. If you code to the standard, then the browser *SHOULD* render it the right way. If it doesn't, now then it may after a fix is put out. Steve -Original Message- From: Gerald Guido [mailto:gerald.gu...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:30 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Adobe Abandons Flex Common sense says: write to standards, Color me stupid but I am not understanding what that means, Write to standards. I ran across the same thing here on this page. http://paulirish.com/2011/browser-market-pollution-iex-is-the-new-ie6/ Corporate users should be testing their applications against standards, not browser version numbers. What does that mean, testing their applications against standards? Any elucidation, or clarification would be greatly appreciated. Many TIA, G! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348800 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
standards is of course a good thing, but not all browsers follow standards, they certainly did not several years ago in anyway shape or form, and that is really the time period we are talking about in this thread, not the present. It you write using standards now then the chances of your app being being future proof are pretty high as even Microsoft have bowed down, and these days you do not need to use browser specific features when you have JQuery. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:34 PM, DURETTE, STEVEN J sd1...@att.com wrote: HTML 4.01 is a standard, HTML 5 is an emerging standard. What you don't want to do is code to IE6, IE7, IE8, FireFox, Chrome, unless you are directed that you have no choice. If you code to the standard, then the browser *SHOULD* render it the right way. If it doesn't, now then it may after a fix is put out. Steve -Original Message- From: Gerald Guido [mailto:gerald.gu...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:30 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Adobe Abandons Flex Common sense says: write to standards, Color me stupid but I am not understanding what that means, Write to standards. I ran across the same thing here on this page. http://paulirish.com/2011/browser-market-pollution-iex-is-the-new-ie6/ Corporate users should be testing their applications against standards, not browser version numbers. What does that mean, testing their applications against standards? Any elucidation, or clarification would be greatly appreciated. Many TIA, G! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348801 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
There is most certainly variation when it comes to standards conformance with regards to both time and browser. None the less, there are fairly well understood subsets that are supported (and were back then) that form a comfortable base for most development to start. Hence why the website I wrote more than 15 years ago renders exactly the same today in Chrome as it did in NCSA Mosaic. That being said, I also wrote fancy Admin UIs years later using customer HTC behaviors that were IE-only because that was the only way to get the look/feel/behavior that those customers demanded at that time. There was a clear understanding, however, that it would not be future proof and that there would probably be substantial changes in the future. So, yeah, you really can write substantially future proof websites and have them work just fine years and years down the line. That limitations imposed by that, however, doesn't always meet the business requirements, so it is a set of tradeoffs as usual. Cheers, Judah On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: standards is of course a good thing, but not all browsers follow standards, they certainly did not several years ago in anyway shape or form, and that is really the time period we are talking about in this thread, not the present. It you write using standards now then the chances of your app being being future proof are pretty high as even Microsoft have bowed down, and these days you do not need to use browser specific features when you have JQuery. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:34 PM, DURETTE, STEVEN J sd1...@att.com wrote: HTML 4.01 is a standard, HTML 5 is an emerging standard. What you don't want to do is code to IE6, IE7, IE8, FireFox, Chrome, unless you are directed that you have no choice. If you code to the standard, then the browser *SHOULD* render it the right way. If it doesn't, now then it may after a fix is put out. Steve ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348802 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
standards is of course a good thing, but not all browsers follow standards, they certainly did not several years ago in anyway shape or form, and that is really the time period we are talking about in this thread, not the present. Thanx for the clarification, all. Writting to standard would be nice, but it is not practicle. There are basically two standards: W3C and MS. IE doesn't follow the DOM level 2 spec and have their own event handlers. Take the array.indexOf() function. It is part of the Ecma standard, and is supported by FF and Chrome, but not IE. Thankfully jQuery handles the lions share of browser compatibility issues. But that still leaves IE's countless CSS bugs, etc Maybe one day we will be able to Write to standard . Perhaps when IE goes (with any luck) the way of Netscape. G! On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: standards is of course a good thing, but not all browsers follow standards, they certainly did not several years ago in anyway shape or form, and that is really the time period we are talking about in this thread, not the present. It you write using standards now then the chances of your app being being future proof are pretty high as even Microsoft have bowed down, and these days you do not need to use browser specific features when you have JQuery. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:34 PM, DURETTE, STEVEN J sd1...@att.com wrote: HTML 4.01 is a standard, HTML 5 is an emerging standard. What you don't want to do is code to IE6, IE7, IE8, FireFox, Chrome, unless you are directed that you have no choice. If you code to the standard, then the browser *SHOULD* render it the right way. If it doesn't, now then it may after a fix is put out. Steve -Original Message- From: Gerald Guido [mailto:gerald.gu...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:30 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Adobe Abandons Flex Common sense says: write to standards, Color me stupid but I am not understanding what that means, Write to standards. I ran across the same thing here on this page. http://paulirish.com/2011/browser-market-pollution-iex-is-the-new-ie6/ Corporate users should be testing their applications against standards, not browser version numbers. What does that mean, testing their applications against standards? Any elucidation, or clarification would be greatly appreciated. Many TIA, G! ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348803 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
I do Fed work, and I'm stuck still supporting IE 6 and up... :( Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:27 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: Contractor... so I get the hand me downs On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote: You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbushquackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewartwebmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabotmcha...@gmail.comwrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348744 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
On 11/15/2011 5:06 PM, Judah McAuley wrote: The CF javascript libraries for UI work (cfdiv, cfwindow, etc) were based on the ExtJS library (which then merged with Sencha). Adobe/Macromedia, as far as I'm aware, never contributed any work to that project but did license it. Going forward, it is my understanding that Adobe is getting more of the JQuery love in its life and they have definitely contributed resources to some of those projects, JQuery Mobile in particular. First, ExtJS didn't merge with Sencha. The company became Sencha after acquiring JQTouch and Raphael, with their principles joining the company. ExtJS is still ExtJS. Yes, Adobe is investing a ton of resources to JQuery and JQuery Mobile. One advantage to that might be to stop paying Sencha licensing fees in ColdFusion in the future. Current downside is, JQuery (UI) doesn't contain most of the components CF is using (Grids, Trees, Menus, Layouts, etc). JQUI is working on them, but it'll be awhile, whereas ExtJS has an extensive application component library, and has for years, along with a mobile library that is also well positioned for app development (Sencha Touch). I still see JQueryUI and JQuery Mobile as *site* libraries, and Ext JS and Sencha Touch as *application* libraries. Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348746 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
sorry cutter but I'd quit Sent from my iPhone... Don't hate. On Nov 16, 2011, at 5:56 AM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote: I do Fed work, and I'm stuck still supporting IE 6 and up... :( Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:27 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: Contractor... so I get the hand me downs On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote: You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbushquackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewartwebmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabotmcha...@gmail.comwrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348751 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Tony, with what I do, and who I'm doing it for, it's worth the headaches. A pain, for sure, but worth it. :) Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/16/2011 7:16 AM, Tony Weeg wrote: sorry cutter but I'd quit Sent from my iPhone... Don't hate. On Nov 16, 2011, at 5:56 AM, Steve 'Cutter' Bladescold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote: I do Fed work, and I'm stuck still supporting IE 6 and up... :( Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:27 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: Contractor... so I get the hand me downs On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote: You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbushquackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewartwebmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabotmcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348753 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
A pain, for sure, but worth it. :) With all the JS you do it must be one sweet gig. I have to support IE @ work but luckily IE's JS engine performance is so crappy that I was able to convince the powers that be to at least upgrade to IE 8. IE 8 and below is as nimble as a bucket of sludge with some JS intensive apps. IE 9 is is a lot better but FF and Chrome leaves IE 9 in the dust. I have grown to despise IE6 and IE in general. But it is what it is. We all have our torments and apparently IE is mine. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote: Tony, with what I do, and who I'm doing it for, it's worth the headaches. A pain, for sure, but worth it. :) Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/16/2011 7:16 AM, Tony Weeg wrote: sorry cutter but I'd quit Sent from my iPhone... Don't hate. On Nov 16, 2011, at 5:56 AM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote: I do Fed work, and I'm stuck still supporting IE 6 and up... :( Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:27 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: Contractor... so I get the hand me downs On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote: You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabotmcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348755 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe:
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Just for a frame of reference, the IRS still has almost 80k employees on IE6. You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub. com/learni ng-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbushquackfuzed@gmail. com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewartwebmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabotmcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex. html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change. org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348760 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
This makes no sense to me. I can understand a business or government office being slow to upgrade to new software if cost were involved, but IE upgrades are free, and would certainly be more secure and productive. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Dan Crouch stario...@yahoo.com wrote: Just for a frame of reference, the IRS still has almost 80k employees on IE6. You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348766 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
It's not that the upgrade costs. It's usually that they have a lot of intranet apps that only run properly on IE6. :( On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Maureen wrote: This makes no sense to me. I can understand a business or government office being slow to upgrade to new software if cost were involved, but IE upgrades are free, and would certainly be more secure and productive. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Dan Crouchstario...@yahoo.com wrote: Just for a frame of reference, the IRS still has almost 80k employees on IE6. You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348767 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Oh, ack!! It never occurred to me that they would be stupid enough to apps that only run on IE6. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:28 PM, .jonah jonah@creori.com wrote: It's not that the upgrade costs. It's usually that they have a lot of intranet apps that only run properly on IE6. :( On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Maureen wrote: This makes no sense to me. I can understand a business or government office being slow to upgrade to new software if cost were involved, but IE upgrades are free, and would certainly be more secure and productive. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348768 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Adobe Abandons Flex
Not fair to say stupid enough. Many of those apps were written back when IE6 was 80-90% of the browser market. Are you writing apps that target Chrome and Firefox right now? Same thing. -Original Message- From: Maureen [mailto:mamamaur...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:55 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Adobe Abandons Flex Oh, ack!! It never occurred to me that they would be stupid enough to apps that only run on IE6. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:28 PM, .jonah jonah@creori.com wrote: It's not that the upgrade costs. It's usually that they have a lot of intranet apps that only run properly on IE6. :( On 11/16/11 5:22 PM, Maureen wrote: This makes no sense to me. I can understand a business or government office being slow to upgrade to new software if cost were involved, but IE upgrades are free, and would certainly be more secure and productive. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348769 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
I'm not writing apps that target any browser. I'm writing apps that work in all of them. And I consider it bad practice not to do so. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:42 PM, andy matthews li...@commadelimited.comwrote: Not fair to say stupid enough. Many of those apps were written back when IE6 was 80-90% of the browser market. Are you writing apps that target Chrome and Firefox right now? Same thing. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348770 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Adobe Abandons Flex
I'm sure you do, good for you. Were you around during the late 90s and the browser wars? We didn't have the luxury in many cases of either cross-browser libraries or foresight enough to think a specific browser would be around for a decade. andy -Original Message- From: Maureen [mailto:mamamaur...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 8:45 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Adobe Abandons Flex I'm not writing apps that target any browser. I'm writing apps that work in all of them. And I consider it bad practice not to do so. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:42 PM, andy matthews li...@commadelimited.comwrote: Not fair to say stupid enough. Many of those apps were written back when IE6 was 80-90% of the browser market. Are you writing apps that target Chrome and Firefox right now? Same thing. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348771 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
cross-browser libraries or foresight enough to think a specific browser would be around for a decade. +1 You can't write cross browser code for a browser that did not exist. IE 6 is the new Netscape. G! On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:49 PM, andy matthews li...@commadelimited.comwrote: I'm sure you do, good for you. Were you around during the late 90s and the browser wars? We didn't have the luxury in many cases of either cross-browser libraries or foresight enough to think a specific browser would be around for a decade. andy -Original Message- From: Maureen [mailto:mamamaur...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 8:45 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Adobe Abandons Flex I'm not writing apps that target any browser. I'm writing apps that work in all of them. And I consider it bad practice not to do so. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:42 PM, andy matthews li...@commadelimited.comwrote: Not fair to say stupid enough. Many of those apps were written back when IE6 was 80-90% of the browser market. Are you writing apps that target Chrome and Firefox right now? Same thing. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348772 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
I've been around since 1952, so yeah, I was there for the browser wars. It wasn't a luxury to make the sites work for all browsers, it was a necessity, and should have been part of the budget for every project, although I know it wasn't. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:49 PM, andy matthews li...@commadelimited.comwrote: I'm sure you do, good for you. Were you around during the late 90s and the browser wars? We didn't have the luxury in many cases of either cross-browser libraries or foresight enough to think a specific browser would be around for a decade. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348773 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Well, in some cases for example, there were these things called COM objects that were used to provide functionality that wasn't possible in a cross-browser manner. On 11/16/11 7:28 PM, Maureen wrote: I've been around since 1952, so yeah, I was there for the browser wars. It wasn't a luxury to make the sites work for all browsers, it was a necessity, and should have been part of the budget for every project, although I know it wasn't. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:49 PM, andy matthewsli...@commadelimited.comwrote: I'm sure you do, good for you. Were you around during the late 90s and the browser wars? We didn't have the luxury in many cases of either cross-browser libraries or foresight enough to think a specific browser would be around for a decade. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348774 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
I've been around since 1952, so yeah, I was there for the browser wars. It wasn't a luxury to make the sites work for all browsers, it was a necessity, and should have been part of the budget for every project, although I know it wasn't. Well, no, it clearly wasn't a necessity, as we can see from the fact that it wasn't always done, and it's only in retrospect that we can say everything should work in all browsers, now that we have a pretty high level of common functionality across modern browsers. When IE 6 came out, there were a bunch of things that you could only do in IE 6. If you wanted to do those things, you wrote browser-specific code. Lots of internal corporate web apps relied on specific functionality delivered through ActiveX, for example. It's very easy to criticize decisions made in the past with information we have in the here-and-now. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348775 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348705 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348708 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
I suggest everyone read the article behind the link Mike posted. No offence Mike, but you may have paraphrased a little too much there (or it's my own interpretation) ;-) I read it as Flexhas NOT been adondonded and will continue on for some timesome of the Flex SDK engineers will be part of the open source move Flash Builder 4.6 will be upgraded to work with new versions of the SDK. Nice catchy subject thoughgood for trolling and flame warsgot me to read ;-) Cheers On Mon, 2011-11-14 at 15:18 -0500, Mike Chabot wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348709 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348710 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Everything else you said aside Scottfree does not mean open source The Flex SDK has been free Cheers On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 15:02 -0500, Scott Stewart wrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348711 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
picky, picky picky :) but yeah your right... On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Bryan Stevenson br...@electricedgesystems.com wrote: Everything else you said aside Scottfree does not mean open source The Flex SDK has been free Cheers On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 15:02 -0500, Scott Stewart wrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348714 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
LOL...sorry manwhen the flames are getting ready to riseaccuracy counts ;-) On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 15:12 -0500, Scott Stewart wrote: picky, picky picky :) but yeah your right... -- Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348715 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbushquackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewartwebmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabotmcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348716 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Contractor... so I get the hand me downs On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote: You're Fed, and you have IE8? Man, you are lucky... Steve 'Cutter' Blades Adobe Community Professional Adobe Certified Expert Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer http://cutterscrossing.com Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010 https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book The best way to predict the future is to help create it On 11/15/2011 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart wrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbushquackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewartwebmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabotmcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348717 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Everything else you said aside Scottfree does not mean open source The Flex SDK has been free I'm pretty sure it's always been open-source as well. You can certainly trace into source code of classes within the Flex class library. And the Flex SDK has always been available from here: http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk/Flex+SDK Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348718 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
It became open source in version 3 I believe. It's been that way for quite a while now. -Jake On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: Everything else you said aside Scottfree does not mean open source The Flex SDK has been free I'm pretty sure it's always been open-source as well. You can certainly trace into source code of classes within the Flex class library. And the Flex SDK has always been available from here: http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk/Flex+SDK Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348719 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
I'll always bow to your wisdom Davenever saw that before ;-) On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 15:45 -0500, Dave Watts wrote: Everything else you said aside Scottfree does not mean open source The Flex SDK has been free I'm pretty sure it's always been open-source as well. You can certainly trace into source code of classes within the Flex class library. And the Flex SDK has always been available from here: http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk/Flex+SDK Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348720 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. None the less I am boning up on HTML5 CSS3 JS etc. MS is betting heavily on HTML5 (Windows 8 is going to have a HTML5/CSS3/JS based UI) as is Google. Right now, according to my (extremely unscientific) estimates about 40-60% of the browser market supports at least some of the HTML5 spec (Basically everything except IE8 and below). Not to mention that XP's EOL is 04/14 so it is not that far off. I have been playing with Adobe Edge, the HTML5 animation tool and it is pretty freaking impressive at to what it can do with HTML/CSS/JS. It is a lot like Flash Pro. G! On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348722 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
don't get me wrong, so am I but at the same time the HTML 4 world isn't going away anytime soon.. and it still needs to be supported. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Gerald Guido gerald.gu...@gmail.com wrote: HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. None the less I am boning up on HTML5 CSS3 JS etc. MS is betting heavily on HTML5 (Windows 8 is going to have a HTML5/CSS3/JS based UI) as is Google. Right now, according to my (extremely unscientific) estimates about 40-60% of the browser market supports at least some of the HTML5 spec (Basically everything except IE8 and below). Not to mention that XP's EOL is 04/14 so it is not that far off. I have been playing with Adobe Edge, the HTML5 animation tool and it is pretty freaking impressive at to what it can do with HTML/CSS/JS. It is a lot like Flash Pro. G! On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348723 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Open source is a phrase that can have a few interpretations. In this case it means Adobe is not going to devote any more company resources into future development. I think the outcome will be the same as what happened to Spectra, unless the Flex community convinces Adobe to change their mind. I would guess that development of Flex is very expensive and Adobe was not selling enough licenses of Flash Builder to cover the cost of the Flex SDK software engineers. -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348724 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: don't get me wrong, so am I but at the same time the HTML 4 world isn't going away anytime soon.. and it still needs to be supported. I did not mean to infer you were or weren't or what ever the case may be. :) We are a IE shop so I understand fully (and painfully). Over the last few years more and more of my logic has been moving client side. I spend more time writing JS than anythig else. From where I stand, all roads point to JS, G! -- Gerald Guido http://www.myinternetisbroken.com -- We all shine on. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348725 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Open source is a phrase that can have a few interpretations. In this case it means Adobe is not going to devote any more company resources into future development. I think the outcome will be the same as what happened to Spectra, unless the Flex community convinces Adobe to change their mind. I would guess that development of Flex is very expensive and Adobe was not selling enough licenses of Flash Builder to cover the cost of the Flex SDK software engineers. This doesn't entirely make sense to me, though - they're not getting rid of Flash Builder. I also suspect that they'll subsidize some of the open-source development, as they've done many times in the past - the Ajax library in CF is open-source, but several of the developers on it were paid by Macromedia (at the time) to work on it. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348726 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
Everything else you said aside Scottfree does not mean open source The Flex SDK has been free I'm pretty sure it's always been open-source as well. You can certainly trace into source code of classes within the Flex class library. And the Flex SDK has always been available from here: http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk/Flex+SDK It became open source in version 3 I believe. It's been that way for quite a while now. I think you're right about that. There wasn't really an SDK at all for version 1, which was server-side only, and I don't think that the version 2 SDK was open-source. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348727 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
They say they are assigning some Flex SDK engineers to the open source team...did we read the same announcement?? On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 16:08 -0500, Mike Chabot wrote: Open source is a phrase that can have a few interpretations. In this case it means Adobe is not going to devote any more company resources into future development. I think the outcome will be the same as what happened to Spectra, unless the Flex community convinces Adobe to change their mind. I would guess that development of Flex is very expensive and Adobe was not selling enough licenses of Flash Builder to cover the cost of the Flex SDK software engineers. -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348728 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
exactlythis all seems too soon on Adobe's part ...but learning what's coming is always wise On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 16:08 -0500, Scott Stewart wrote: don't get me wrong, so am I but at the same time the HTML 4 world isn't going away anytime soon.. and it still needs to be supported. -- Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348730 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
You have to look through the corporate spin put on that announcement. Adobe is trying to make a bad event sound positive. When they write yes they actually mean no. The abandonment of Spectra was accompanied by a rosy news release and claims of This is fantastic news! Spectra quickly died. Would a software architect choose Flex for a new $1M enterprise development project when Apple, Microsoft, Google, and now Adobe have all come out saying that HTML 5 is the future for RIA development? A big target of Flex is the enterprise market where Web applications cost hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to build, often with multi-year development timelines and large project teams. I don't think many large companies will be willing to roll the dice on Flex or Flash for future large projects with Adobe making statements like the ones they made in the past week. -Mike On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Bryan Stevenson br...@electricedgesystems.com wrote: They say they are assigning some Flex SDK engineers to the open source team...did we read the same announcement?? On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 16:08 -0500, Mike Chabot wrote: Open source is a phrase that can have a few interpretations. In this case it means Adobe is not going to devote any more company resources into future development. I think the outcome will be the same as what happened to Spectra, unless the Flex community convinces Adobe to change their mind. I would guess that development of Flex is very expensive and Adobe was not selling enough licenses of Flash Builder to cover the cost of the Flex SDK software engineers. -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348731 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: This doesn't entirely make sense to me, though - they're not getting rid of Flash Builder. I also suspect that they'll subsidize some of the open-source development, as they've done many times in the past - the Ajax library in CF is open-source, but several of the developers on it were paid by Macromedia (at the time) to work on it. The CF javascript libraries for UI work (cfdiv, cfwindow, etc) were based on the ExtJS library (which then merged with Sencha). Adobe/Macromedia, as far as I'm aware, never contributed any work to that project but did license it. Going forward, it is my understanding that Adobe is getting more of the JQuery love in its life and they have definitely contributed resources to some of those projects, JQuery Mobile in particular. The Railo community implementation of the equivalent CF UI functions such as cfwindow are based on the JQuery library (and were done by Andrea Campolonghi). I expect Adobe to likely move to JQuery-based components in the future given their investment in JQuery Mobile. Cheers, Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348732 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
+1 to corporate spin And no, no one in their right mind would invest in a **NEW** Flex/Flash application. From the Adobe page: /snip *Does Adobe recommend we use Flex or HTML5 for our enterprise application development?* In the long-term, we believe HTML5 will be the best technology for enterprise application development. We also know that, currently, Flex has clear benefits for large-scale client projects typically associated with desktop application profiles. Given our experiences innovating on Flex, we are extremely well positioned to positively contribute to the advancement of HTML5 development, starting with mobile applications. In fact, many of the engineers and product managers who worked on Flex SDK will be moving to work on our HTML efforts. We will continue making significant contributions to open web technologies like WebKit jQuery, advance the development of PhoneGap and create new tools that solve the challenges developers face when building applications with HTML5. /snip That said, obviously someone with _an existing_ Flex/Flash application is not going to just throw it away immediately. But there is no way they will build new stuff with it. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote: You have to look through the corporate spin put on that announcement. Adobe is trying to make a bad event sound positive. When they write yes they actually mean no. The abandonment of Spectra was accompanied by a rosy news release and claims of This is fantastic news! Spectra quickly died. Would a software architect choose Flex for a new $1M enterprise development project when Apple, Microsoft, Google, and now Adobe have all come out saying that HTML 5 is the future for RIA development? A big target of Flex is the enterprise market where Web applications cost hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to build, often with multi-year development timelines and large project teams. I don't think many large companies will be willing to roll the dice on Flex or Flash for future large projects with Adobe making statements like the ones they made in the past week. -Mike On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Bryan Stevenson br...@electricedgesystems.com wrote: They say they are assigning some Flex SDK engineers to the open source team...did we read the same announcement?? On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 16:08 -0500, Mike Chabot wrote: Open source is a phrase that can have a few interpretations. In this case it means Adobe is not going to devote any more company resources into future development. I think the outcome will be the same as what happened to Spectra, unless the Flex community convinces Adobe to change their mind. I would guess that development of Flex is very expensive and Adobe was not selling enough licenses of Flash Builder to cover the cost of the Flex SDK software engineers. -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348733 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
The abandonment of Spectra was accompanied by a rosy news release and claims of This is fantastic news! Spectra quickly died. That was fantastic news! (not a Spectra fan here, but j/k I guess) Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348734 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
I don't know - this all seems so premature. It's not like HTML5 is 100% ready for primetime. I think of some of the stuff I do with Flex and HTML/JS seems much weaker as a programming language. A key phrase in the post was 'in the long run'. I don't see HTML/JS being stronger than Flex for enterprise development for some time to come. On Nov 15, 2011, at 4:03 PM, Gerald Guido wrote: HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. None the less I am boning up on HTML5 CSS3 JS etc. MS is betting heavily on HTML5 (Windows 8 is going to have a HTML5/CSS3/JS based UI) as is Google. Right now, according to my (extremely unscientific) estimates about 40-60% of the browser market supports at least some of the HTML5 spec (Basically everything except IE8 and below). Not to mention that XP's EOL is 04/14 so it is not that far off. I have been playing with Adobe Edge, the HTML5 animation tool and it is pretty freaking impressive at to what it can do with HTML/CSS/JS. It is a lot like Flash Pro. G! On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: So are they going to try to force adoption of new browsers? I can tell you that in the Federal sector this won't wash.. (says me working from my federal Win XP IE 8 machine). HTML 5 is very cool, but it's World Dominance is greatly exaggerated. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote: CF is indeed alive and well. Flex? Flash? Nopers. Done. Be sure to read the portions from Adobe where they clearly state that for all future enterprise development THEY recommend HTML5 and NOT Flash/Flex. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Scott Stewart webmas...@sstwebworks.comwrote: Hasn't the flex SDK *always* been open source? I think this last line contradicts your statement Is Adobe still committed to Flash Builder? Yes. Flash Builder will continue to be developed and Adobe will work to ensure Flex developers can use Flash Builder as their development tool with future releases of Flex SDK. on a personal note: Can we all take a step back, grab a deep breath and assess the situation in it's entirety before jumping to doomsday conclusions? The only thing I've seen that's concrete so far is that Adobe is dumping direct development of the Flash plugin for mobile environments. Their answer (IMO) wrap your Flash in the AIR SDK. ColdFusion is still alive and well Flex is still alive and well Flex Builder is still alive and well This gets old and we're not winning any converts by being paranoid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote: Adobe announced this week that they are ending their commitment to further Flex development. Flex 4.6 will likely be the last version Adobe releases and the Flex SDK engineers will be reassigned to HTML 5 projects. Future Flex development will come from the open source community. The announcement is here: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html A petition asking the Adobe CEO to step down is here: http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-shantanu-narayen-to-step-down-as-ceo -Mike ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348735 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
I miss Spectra. Lots of expensive training lost in a moment. But working in WordPress brings back lots of memory of containers, and late nights tweaking nesting rules. Sigh. But a Flex question. If Adobe stops any further development on Flex, how likely is it that an open source group might continue to develop it? Jerry Milo Johnson On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: The abandonment of Spectra was accompanied by a rosy news release and claims of This is fantastic news! Spectra quickly died. That was fantastic news! (not a Spectra fan here, but j/k I guess) Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348736 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
*wakes up* Spectra? Did someone say Spectra? *back to sleep* On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Jerry Milo Johnson jmi...@gmail.com wrote: I miss Spectra. Lots of expensive training lost in a moment. But working in WordPress brings back lots of memory of containers, and late nights tweaking nesting rules. Sigh. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348737 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
it is my understanding that Adobe is getting more of the JQuery love in its life a I looked under the hood of Adobe Edge, the HTML5 animation tool and it uses jQuery and stores data for the animations as JSON. jQuery is wildly popular for good reason. In many ways it is like CFML, it makes hard things easy. Write less do more etc. Same concept in many ways... Like easy is a bad thing. G! On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: This doesn't entirely make sense to me, though - they're not getting rid of Flash Builder. I also suspect that they'll subsidize some of the open-source development, as they've done many times in the past - the Ajax library in CF is open-source, but several of the developers on it were paid by Macromedia (at the time) to work on it. The CF javascript libraries for UI work (cfdiv, cfwindow, etc) were based on the ExtJS library (which then merged with Sencha). Adobe/Macromedia, as far as I'm aware, never contributed any work to that project but did license it. Going forward, it is my understanding that Adobe is getting more of the JQuery love in its life and they have definitely contributed resources to some of those projects, JQuery Mobile in particular. The Railo community implementation of the equivalent CF UI functions such as cfwindow are based on the JQuery library (and were done by Andrea Campolonghi). I expect Adobe to likely move to JQuery-based components in the future given their investment in JQuery Mobile. Cheers, Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348738 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
They updated the announcementmuch better: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html On Mon, 2011-11-14 at 15:18 -0500, Mike Chabot wrote: http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html -- Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: br...@electricedgesystems.com web: www.electricedgesystems.com Notice: This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this message and attachments. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348739 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
We don't just use jQuery, we put engineering time into it - and jQuery UI and jQuery Mobile. That doesn't get enough press so spread the word. ;) On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Emmit Larson emmit.lar...@gmail.com wrote: it is my understanding that Adobe is getting more of the JQuery love in its life a I looked under the hood of Adobe Edge, the HTML5 animation tool and it uses jQuery and stores data for the animations as JSON. jQuery is wildly popular for good reason. In many ways it is like CFML, it makes hard things easy. Write less do more etc. Same concept in many ways... Like easy is a bad thing. G! On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: This doesn't entirely make sense to me, though - they're not getting rid of Flash Builder. I also suspect that they'll subsidize some of the open-source development, as they've done many times in the past - the Ajax library in CF is open-source, but several of the developers on it were paid by Macromedia (at the time) to work on it. The CF javascript libraries for UI work (cfdiv, cfwindow, etc) were based on the ExtJS library (which then merged with Sencha). Adobe/Macromedia, as far as I'm aware, never contributed any work to that project but did license it. Going forward, it is my understanding that Adobe is getting more of the JQuery love in its life and they have definitely contributed resources to some of those projects, JQuery Mobile in particular. The Railo community implementation of the equivalent CF UI functions such as cfwindow are based on the JQuery library (and were done by Andrea Campolonghi). I expect Adobe to likely move to JQuery-based components in the future given their investment in JQuery Mobile. Cheers, Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348740 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
That's what I was saying, Ray :) On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 6:55 PM, Raymond Camden raymondcam...@gmail.com wrote: We don't just use jQuery, we put engineering time into it - and jQuery UI and jQuery Mobile. That doesn't get enough press so spread the word. ;) On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Emmit Larson emmit.lar...@gmail.com wrote: it is my understanding that Adobe is getting more of the JQuery love in its life a I looked under the hood of Adobe Edge, the HTML5 animation tool and it uses jQuery and stores data for the animations as JSON. jQuery is wildly popular for good reason. In many ways it is like CFML, it makes hard things easy. Write less do more etc. Same concept in many ways... Like easy is a bad thing. G! On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Judah McAuley ju...@wiredotter.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote: This doesn't entirely make sense to me, though - they're not getting rid of Flash Builder. I also suspect that they'll subsidize some of the open-source development, as they've done many times in the past - the Ajax library in CF is open-source, but several of the developers on it were paid by Macromedia (at the time) to work on it. The CF javascript libraries for UI work (cfdiv, cfwindow, etc) were based on the ExtJS library (which then merged with Sencha). Adobe/Macromedia, as far as I'm aware, never contributed any work to that project but did license it. Going forward, it is my understanding that Adobe is getting more of the JQuery love in its life and they have definitely contributed resources to some of those projects, JQuery Mobile in particular. The Railo community implementation of the equivalent CF UI functions such as cfwindow are based on the JQuery library (and were done by Andrea Campolonghi). I expect Adobe to likely move to JQuery-based components in the future given their investment in JQuery Mobile. Cheers, Judah ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348741 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
But a Flex question. If Adobe stops any further development on Flex, how likely is it that an open source group might continue to develop it? Well, lots of ASF projects do pretty well. But, they tend not to have that specific a focus - one of the things that a company can bring to development (and a committee often can't) is the ability to decide significant new directions pretty quickly. For example, moving from MX to Spark was a big change. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348742 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Adobe Abandons Flex
*wakes up* Spectra? Did someone say Spectra? *back to sleep* Spectra can also be used to summon shoggoths. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:348743 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
