Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-31 Thread Don

I had to look up 'orthogonal' - And now I'm even more confused!

Thanks guys! =)


 Is this what you are asking? are there any architectural considerations
 in database design to match what is needed by an MVC architecture?
 
 I see that as a legit question as some specific MVC engines/frameworks
 that are by convention, such as CFWheels, prefer certain conventions
 in, for example, database naming.

 Yes, this is what I am asking. =).

As conventions are not the same as best practices, Matt's original
answer still stands.

 But, other than database naming are there any others? Or anything that
 goes deeper into Mvc integration besides ORM ?

No. As everyone else has already said here, relational database design
is orthogonal to application design.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. 


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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-31 Thread Russ Michaels

lol, some people just like to use obscure words just to look clever, even
if they don't know what they mean :-)

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:45 PM, Don danfar...@hotmail.com wrote:


 I had to look up 'orthogonal' - And now I'm even more confused!

 Thanks guys! =)


  Is this what you are asking? are there any architectural
 considerations
  in database design to match what is needed by an MVC architecture?
  
  I see that as a legit question as some specific MVC engines/frameworks
  that are by convention, such as CFWheels, prefer certain conventions
  in, for example, database naming.
 
  Yes, this is what I am asking. =).
 
 As conventions are not the same as best practices, Matt's original
 answer still stands.
 
  But, other than database naming are there any others? Or anything that
  goes deeper into Mvc integration besides ORM ?
 
 No. As everyone else has already said here, relational database design
 is orthogonal to application design.
 
 Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
 http://www.figleaf.com/
 http://training.figleaf.com/
 
 Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
 GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
 instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.


 

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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-29 Thread Matt Quackenbush

Take a look at this presentation by a good friend of mine, Scott Stroz.

https://experts.adobeconnect.com/_a204547676/p99836802/?launcher=falsefcsContent=truepbMode=normal

This recording is from 2010, but you might also be able to find a recording
of his updated version, entitled How to Pimp Out Your Model, which was
one of his topics at cf.Objective() 2012. I think he might have also done
it for CF Developer's Week 2011 and/or 2012.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
On Jul 28, 2012 7:05 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm sorry, but building a database around a framework is flat out wrong.
 On so many levels. There are two basic options when designing a database
 for a web application:

 1) Design your schema from the perspective of the data.

 2) Focus on the model, and let your ORM (Hibernate, Transfer. Reactor,
 etc.) handle the schema design.

 Obviously I am over simplifying things here, but the database is the
 database. It is not part of the MVC architecture. M is Model. V is
 View. C is Controller. MVC doesn't give a rat's about the database. Hell,
 MVC doesn't even require a database!

 The bottom line is that MVC is about the separation of concerns. (Google
 separation of concerns.) For that very reason, you should never consider
 the database when choosing whether or not to use an MVC architecture for
 the application.

 Am I saying that the database schema is unimportant and should not be
 considered? Hell no. I am simply saying that the database is the database,
 and the MVC architecture is the MVC architecture. They have nothing to do
 with one another.

 So, I again suggest that you ask questions that are specific. Your initial
 question has been fully answered. :-)

 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
 On Jul 28, 2012 6:38 AM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:


 Perhaps it'd help you to check out a framework that does MVC and see how
 the tables/columns are setup in that DB...?

 For example:
 http://cfwheels.org/docs/1-1/chapter/beginner-tutorial-hello-database


 On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.au
 wrote:

 
  Well I am not sure what your looking at achieving either, the question
 you
  posed was answered correctly.
 
  The thing that you need to take into consideration, that everything you
 do
  whether it is MVC or not has nothing to do with the design of a
 database.
  The reason behind this is that something like a database is and should
 be
  considered a different tier to your application design.
 
  So if you are after something more specific, the answer given is exactly
  that, what exactly are you trying to achieve in your design?
 
  --
  Regards,
  Andrew Scott
  WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
  Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411
  http://plus.google.com/108193156965451149543
 
 
 
  On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Don danfar...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  
   Sounds to me like you didn't understand the question!
  
   Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do
 with
   MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can
 have
  an
   idea of what you're really after?
   
   HTH
   
   
   
   
   
What are some best practices in structuring the website database to
accomodate good integration with an MVC model?
   
   
   
  
  
  
 
 

 

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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-29 Thread Andrew Scott

John, are you implying that I need to check this out?

I stand by my comments made.

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+: 
http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411http://plus.google.com/108193156965451149543


On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 9:37 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:


 Perhaps it'd help you to check out a framework that does MVC and see how
 the tables/columns are setup in that DB...?

 For example:
 http://cfwheels.org/docs/1-1/chapter/beginner-tutorial-hello-database





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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-29 Thread Matt Quackenbush

Damnit. I copied the wrong link while on my phone. Sorry about that.  Here
is the correct link for Scott Stroz' Make Your Model Promiscuous
presentation:

https://experts.adobeconnect.com/_a204547676/p29658172/?launcher=falsefcsContent=truepbMode=normal

Sorry again for the erroneous link previously.


On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote:

 Take a look at this presentation by a good friend of mine, Scott Stroz.


 https://experts.adobeconnect.com/_a204547676/p99836802/?launcher=falsefcsContent=truepbMode=normal

 This recording is from 2010, but you might also be able to find a
 recording of his updated version, entitled How to Pimp Out Your Model,
 which was one of his topics at cf.Objective() 2012. I think he might have
 also done it for CF Developer's Week 2011 and/or 2012.

 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
 On Jul 28, 2012 7:05 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm sorry, but building a database around a framework is flat out wrong.
 On so many levels. There are two basic options when designing a database
 for a web application:

 1) Design your schema from the perspective of the data.

 2) Focus on the model, and let your ORM (Hibernate, Transfer. Reactor,
 etc.) handle the schema design.

 Obviously I am over simplifying things here, but the database is the
 database. It is not part of the MVC architecture. M is Model. V is
 View. C is Controller. MVC doesn't give a rat's about the database. Hell,
 MVC doesn't even require a database!

 The bottom line is that MVC is about the separation of concerns. (Google
 separation of concerns.) For that very reason, you should never consider
 the database when choosing whether or not to use an MVC architecture for
 the application.

 Am I saying that the database schema is unimportant and should not be
 considered? Hell no. I am simply saying that the database is the database,
 and the MVC architecture is the MVC architecture. They have nothing to do
 with one another.

 So, I again suggest that you ask questions that are specific. Your
 initial question has been fully answered. :-)

 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
 On Jul 28, 2012 6:38 AM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:


 Perhaps it'd help you to check out a framework that does MVC and see
 how
 the tables/columns are setup in that DB...?

 For example:
 http://cfwheels.org/docs/1-1/chapter/beginner-tutorial-hello-database


 On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.au
 wrote:

 
  Well I am not sure what your looking at achieving either, the question
 you
  posed was answered correctly.
 
  The thing that you need to take into consideration, that everything
 you do
  whether it is MVC or not has nothing to do with the design of a
 database.
  The reason behind this is that something like a database is and should
 be
  considered a different tier to your application design.
 
  So if you are after something more specific, the answer given is
 exactly
  that, what exactly are you trying to achieve in your design?
 
  --
  Regards,
  Andrew Scott
  WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
  Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411
  http://plus.google.com/108193156965451149543
 
 
 
  On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Don danfar...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  
   Sounds to me like you didn't understand the question!
  
   Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do
 with
   MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can
 have
  an
   idea of what you're really after?
   
   HTH
   
   
   
   
   
What are some best practices in structuring the website database
 to
accomodate good integration with an MVC model?
   
   
   
  
  
  
 
 

 

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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-29 Thread Gerald Guido

The MVC design pattern is pretty much orthogonal to the design of the
database. In fact one of the goals of MVC is to hide the particulars of
your model from the rest of your application. Your data could come from a
number of different sources (a database, XML, an RSS feed, web service) and
it would not matter to the rest of your app. Ideally, one could swap out
your source of data from a database or an ORM to a web service and the rest
of your application would be none the wiser.

BTW I took the time to Google best practices database structure MVC and
nobody seems to have addressed the topic.  So yeah, what Matt said.

https://www.google.com/search?num=100hl=ensafe=offq=best+practices++database+structure+MVC+oq=best+practices++database+structure+MVC+gs_l=serp.3...25075.36379.0.36670.13.13.0.0.0.0.124.1410.0j13.13.0.cqn%2Ccconf%3D1-0%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Crate_low%3D0-025%2Crate_high%3D0-025%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D2%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue..0.0...1c.yZGPO9vdhJg

HTH

G!

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote:


 Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do with
 MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can have an
 idea of what you're really after?

 HTH


 On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Don danfar...@hotmail.com wrote:

 
  What are some best practices in structuring the website database to
  accomodate good integration with an MVC model?
 
 
 

 

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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-29 Thread Cameron Childress

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:04 PM, Don danfar...@hotmail.com wrote:

 What are some best practices in structuring the website database to
 accomodate good integration with an MVC model?


MVC is really doesn't have anything to do with the database structure. The
closest you'd get to anything having to do with the database itself would
be ORM, which can fit into the M (model) of MVC quite nice but really
doesn't have anything to with the database design itself.

Instead of what you actually asked, you are probably instead looking either
for information on good relational database design or some
good documentation on ORM, both of which are readily available via Google.
If you get into one or the other and have a more specific question, then
come back and ask *that* of the list.

-Cameron

...


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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-29 Thread Don

Is this what you are asking? are there any architectural considerations 
in database design to match what is needed by an MVC architecture?

I see that as a legit question as some specific MVC engines/frameworks 
that are by convention, such as CFWheels, prefer certain conventions 
in, for example, database naming.

Yes, this is what I am asking. =). 

But, other than database naming are there any others? Or anything that 
goes deeper into Mvc integration besides ORM ?



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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-29 Thread John M Bliss

No. Was writing to OP.

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.auwrote:


 John, are you implying that I need to check this out?

 I stand by my comments made.

 --
 Regards,
 Andrew Scott
 WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
 Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411
 http://plus.google.com/108193156965451149543


 On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 9:37 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
  Perhaps it'd help you to check out a framework that does MVC and see
 how
  the tables/columns are setup in that DB...?
 
  For example:
  http://cfwheels.org/docs/1-1/chapter/beginner-tutorial-hello-database
 
 
 


 

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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-29 Thread Dave Watts

 Is this what you are asking? are there any architectural considerations
 in database design to match what is needed by an MVC architecture?
 
 I see that as a legit question as some specific MVC engines/frameworks
 that are by convention, such as CFWheels, prefer certain conventions
 in, for example, database naming.

 Yes, this is what I am asking. =).

As conventions are not the same as best practices, Matt's original
answer still stands.

 But, other than database naming are there any others? Or anything that
 goes deeper into Mvc integration besides ORM ?

No. As everyone else has already said here, relational database design
is orthogonal to application design.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-29 Thread Andrew Scott

@John,

Thought that might be the case, just needed to confirm.

@Don,

I think it is easy to get mixed up with so many things to learn at times,
but take a step back for a minute and have a think about if the project
your working on already had a database designed. The code is shunky and in
need of a major overhaul, as it is cheaper to redesign than to patch on top
of patches to keep the code running. Because the database is already
designed, you have to now code to retrieve data, and you write your code as
if the data is coming from anywhere, like Dave states it could be coming
from a database, webservice or anything.

As for conventions for cfwheels, that is the problem they are conventions,
conventions can be changed over time or to suit your particular needs, and
that means that conventions are not and should not be considered best
practice. And being a separate tier to your application, then the way you
interface with the database should be your major concern, in other words do
I write this level to be modular and interchangeable or do I hard code it
in a way that makes slotting new technology in even harder?



-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+: 
http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411http://plus.google.com/108193156965451149543


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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-28 Thread Don

Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do with
MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can have an
idea of what you're really after?

HTH

It doesn't help at all actually.

Anyone else? 


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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-28 Thread Don

Sounds to me like you didn't understand the question!

Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do with
MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can have an
idea of what you're really after?

HTH





 What are some best practices in structuring the website database to
 accomodate good integration with an MVC model?


 


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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-28 Thread Andrew Scott

Well I am not sure what your looking at achieving either, the question you
posed was answered correctly.

The thing that you need to take into consideration, that everything you do
whether it is MVC or not has nothing to do with the design of a database.
The reason behind this is that something like a database is and should be
considered a different tier to your application design.

So if you are after something more specific, the answer given is exactly
that, what exactly are you trying to achieve in your design?

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+: 
http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411http://plus.google.com/108193156965451149543



On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Don danfar...@hotmail.com wrote:


 Sounds to me like you didn't understand the question!

 Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do with
 MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can have an
 idea of what you're really after?
 
 HTH
 
 
 
 
 
  What are some best practices in structuring the website database to
  accomodate good integration with an MVC model?
 
 
 


 

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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-28 Thread Kym Kovan

On 28/07/2012 5:52 PM, Don wrote:

 Sounds to me like you didn't understand the question!

Is this what you are asking? are there any architectural considerations 
in database design to match what is needed by an MVC architecture?

I see that as a legit question as some specific MVC engines/frameworks 
that are by convention, such as CFWheels, prefer certain conventions 
in, for example, database naming.


 Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do with
 MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can have an
 idea of what you're really after?

 HTH


 What are some best practices in structuring the website database to
 accomodate good integration with an MVC model?







-- 

Yours,

Kym Kovan
mbcomms.net.au



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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-28 Thread John M Bliss

Perhaps it'd help you to check out a framework that does MVC and see how
the tables/columns are setup in that DB...?

For example:
http://cfwheels.org/docs/1-1/chapter/beginner-tutorial-hello-database


On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.auwrote:


 Well I am not sure what your looking at achieving either, the question you
 posed was answered correctly.

 The thing that you need to take into consideration, that everything you do
 whether it is MVC or not has nothing to do with the design of a database.
 The reason behind this is that something like a database is and should be
 considered a different tier to your application design.

 So if you are after something more specific, the answer given is exactly
 that, what exactly are you trying to achieve in your design?

 --
 Regards,
 Andrew Scott
 WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
 Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411
 http://plus.google.com/108193156965451149543



 On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Don danfar...@hotmail.com wrote:

 
  Sounds to me like you didn't understand the question!
 
  Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do with
  MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can have
 an
  idea of what you're really after?
  
  HTH
  
  
  
  
  
   What are some best practices in structuring the website database to
   accomodate good integration with an MVC model?
  
  
  
 
 
 

 

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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-28 Thread Matt Quackenbush

I'm sorry, but building a database around a framework is flat out wrong. On
so many levels. There are two basic options when designing a database for a
web application:

1) Design your schema from the perspective of the data.

2) Focus on the model, and let your ORM (Hibernate, Transfer. Reactor,
etc.) handle the schema design.

Obviously I am over simplifying things here, but the database is the
database. It is not part of the MVC architecture. M is Model. V is
View. C is Controller. MVC doesn't give a rat's about the database. Hell,
MVC doesn't even require a database!

The bottom line is that MVC is about the separation of concerns. (Google
separation of concerns.) For that very reason, you should never consider
the database when choosing whether or not to use an MVC architecture for
the application.

Am I saying that the database schema is unimportant and should not be
considered? Hell no. I am simply saying that the database is the database,
and the MVC architecture is the MVC architecture. They have nothing to do
with one another.

So, I again suggest that you ask questions that are specific. Your initial
question has been fully answered. :-)

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
On Jul 28, 2012 6:38 AM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:


 Perhaps it'd help you to check out a framework that does MVC and see how
 the tables/columns are setup in that DB...?

 For example:
 http://cfwheels.org/docs/1-1/chapter/beginner-tutorial-hello-database


 On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.au
 wrote:

 
  Well I am not sure what your looking at achieving either, the question
 you
  posed was answered correctly.
 
  The thing that you need to take into consideration, that everything you
 do
  whether it is MVC or not has nothing to do with the design of a database.
  The reason behind this is that something like a database is and should be
  considered a different tier to your application design.
 
  So if you are after something more specific, the answer given is exactly
  that, what exactly are you trying to achieve in your design?
 
  --
  Regards,
  Andrew Scott
  WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
  Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411
  http://plus.google.com/108193156965451149543
 
 
 
  On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Don danfar...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  
   Sounds to me like you didn't understand the question!
  
   Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do
 with
   MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can have
  an
   idea of what you're really after?
   
   HTH
   
   
   
   
   
What are some best practices in structuring the website database to
accomodate good integration with an MVC model?
   
   
   
  
  
  
 
 

 

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Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-27 Thread Don

What are some best practices in structuring the website database to accomodate 
good integration with an MVC model? 


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Re: Setting up database for mvc website

2012-07-27 Thread Matt Quackenbush

Speaking from a purist perspective, the database has nothing to do with
MVC.  Perhaps you should ask more specific questions so folks can have an
idea of what you're really after?

HTH


On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Don danfar...@hotmail.com wrote:


 What are some best practices in structuring the website database to
 accomodate good integration with an MVC model?


 

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