[cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this?
Thanks for everyone's help on this. To summarise the discussion, i think there's a strong consensus on the matter. It's pretty clear to me that when it comes to the question of whether or not ot charge for travel time, if it's a significant part of the working day, the vast majority of developers on this list agree it depends. It depends on how badly you want the client, how much you want the work, whether it was agreed in advance to charge him for travel time ... in other words it boils down to 'charge him for it if you thnk you can get away with it.' Which is basically what i've been doing in these circumstances up till now. But i think we ought to consider billing for travel time on an hourly rate job if it's going to take a significant part of the working day. I thought about other people we employ on site and thought about what they do. Plumbers and electricians charge travelling time - they call it a call-out fee. Lawyers charge for everything so that doesnt count. Doctors doing house calls (if you can persuade one to do it) will cost you for travel time. In the scenario i painted at the outset of this thread the travel time amounted to 3 hours and the time wasnt going to be split between several clients. The travel was to attend a meeting on site at the client's request. I think we should consider billing for this travel time, since if we weren't going to the meeting, we'd be doing 3 chargeable hours of coding work. Anyway, thanks a lot for your thoughts everyone. I mostly just wanted to check i wasnt giving away something the rest of you were billing for.And we seem to be on the same wavelength. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this?
It comes back to customer expectation. You don't want to slip in hidden charges like well as of now you're paying for my travel and expenses as i'd argue this isn't fair (You never mentioned this when I hired you.. what the...) That being said, I usually when quoting for a job etc, factor in commute / emails / instant message conversations / reports etc into the equation so when the customer does require my butt to be onsite for whatever reason it's factored in. I also used to make it clear that they had x number of units set aside for this, and that should they not be used I'd not charge them for it in the end (even in one case offered a refund on the costs which they declined since the job was done and they liked the outcome). You really need to be disciplined with your clients, in that don't chase the cheapest price as its stuff like this that trips you up and can cascade forward. Quote fairly but make no mistake, your commute time is on their dime as in theory you could be spending time with the family, chasing more work or even working on another project. The transport costs alone addup. But I'd recommend you never say to them ..Sorry, I need to charge you for fuel money as It all adds up.. or something along those lines as it cheapens your consultancy brand firstly and secondly it sends mixed signals to the respective client. If however you are being paid per day basis, then you should be charging them for 10-12hr day ( as that's likely how long you'll be working anyway + it adds enough buffer to absorb a lot of the hidden costs). On Dec 1, 2007 2:25 PM, Mike Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this is too off-topic. I dont think it is but never mind i'll post anyway . What do you other contractors/freelancers do in this scenario: You work off site for a client, working from your own office on a task, charging by the hour for the job. The client calls and says he wants you in his office for a meeting with some of the stakeholders in the job. The meeting will take 2.5 hours, on a day when you'd otherwise be working by the hour for this client or another ... Travel to the client's office is 90 minutes each way, a total of 3 hours travelling time when you count both trips there and back. You obviously charge the client for the 2.5 hours stakeholders meeting, but do you also charge for the 3 hours travel time?If so, at the full chargeout rate or a special travel time rate? I think if you are going to spend 8 hours at the client office, its' like travel to and from work and therefore not chargeable. but since this is a part of a day that would otherwise be chargeable if you werent going to the meeting, do you charge for the 3 horus taken out of the day travelling? -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET http://asp.net/ hosting from AUD$15/month -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this?
From someone who uses contractors, it is based on the situation. I typically wouold not pay travel, as that is not my responsibility. I would be flexible to try to accomodate the timing of the trip to allow the contractor to schedule other things around their visit. If the need was immediate, I would consider increasing the hourly pay for the 2.5 hours which is my responsibility. Again, it is based on what is fair and equitable for both parties, following an open discussion. Chad who has not posted here for many moons On Dec 1, 2007 6:51 PM, Peter Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It really comes down to how busy are you and how bad do you want the work? If it's a great client you like to work with, you get a good hourly rate, you get to develop technology you can sell elsewhere, there are product or hosting sales giving you a back end, it's fun to do and/or you don't have other work on, do whatever makes them happy. I'd probably try to schedule something else so I could throw in the travel time, maybe work on the train if you can take public transport, etc. If on the other hand it's a lowball hourly, you don't like the work/the client, you're not learning anything, there is no back end, or you've got lots of other work paying the same or a greater hourly rate, you might have to let the client know that while you'd love to come in for the meeting, it's going to take you three hours of travel time which you would otherwise be billing another client for. You're more than happy to take the meeting by phone, to schedule it as part of a day of onsite consulting or to schedule it for a day when you'd be coming through their neighborhood anyway, and in any of those cases you'd only have to charge the 2.5 hours. If they MUST have you at that time for just 2.5 hours, you're going to have to charge out the travel time because it's money you'd otherwise be making. All you have to bill is your time, so whether you're writing valuable code, sitting in a room chatting with someone, or stuck in traffic, if the only reason you're doing so is because client X asks you to, then the only reason not to charge client X for that time is if you're willing to effectively discount your overall hourly rate to get/keep their business. For the record, there are plenty of clients I'll go out of the way to do what I can for, and there are some which can pay book rate or go hire someone else. It's all supply and demand - not only the supply and demand of programmers, but also the supply and demand of clients. Best Wishes, Peter On 11/30/07 11:25 PM, Mike Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this is too off-topic. I dont think it is but never mind i'll post anyway . What do you other contractors/freelancers do in this scenario: You work off site for a client, working from your own office on a task, charging by the hour for the job. The client calls and says he wants you in his office for a meeting with some of the stakeholders in the job. The meeting will take 2.5 hours, on a day when you'd otherwise be working by the hour for this client or another ... Travel to the client's office is 90 minutes each way, a total of 3 hours travelling time when you count both trips there and back. You obviously charge the client for the 2.5 hours stakeholders meeting, but do you also charge for the 3 hours travel time?If so, at the full chargeout rate or a special travel time rate? I think if you are going to spend 8 hours at the client office, its' like travel to and from work and therefore not chargeable. but since this is a part of a day that would otherwise be chargeable if you werent going to the meeting, do you charge for the 3 horus taken out of the day travelling? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this?
For me i guess it depends on the situation. If i am chasing work then i am responsible for my own travel as i see it all as part of the job. If i for example am chasing projects that are interstate, then its up to me to cover the travel expenses, and at the time set up scheduled milestone meetings which i would take into consideration when i quote. Anything outside of that i would discuss with the client. If its just one or two trips i would wear it. If the job is local, i would wear it. I see it as part of the job. From the other side of the fence i would expect the same. If you are going to chase work then expect to do what you need to for the job. On the other hand, if i was being head hunted then i would expect some level of compensation for travel but only if i would have to travel by plane to get there including cab fairs. That said, this is done at my own discretion and how i see the relationship moving forward. Keep in mind though, you can claim all your travel anyway and if you are smart you quote with a buffer to cover that sort of thing. Steve -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chad Renando Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2007 7:08 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this? From someone who uses contractors, it is based on the situation. I typically wouold not pay travel, as that is not my responsibility. I would be flexible to try to accomodate the timing of the trip to allow the contractor to schedule other things around their visit. If the need was immediate, I would consider increasing the hourly pay for the 2.5 hours which is my responsibility. Again, it is based on what is fair and equitable for both parties, following an open discussion. Chad who has not posted here for many moons On Dec 1, 2007 6:51 PM, Peter Bell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It really comes down to how busy are you and how bad do you want the work? If it's a great client you like to work with, you get a good hourly rate, you get to develop technology you can sell elsewhere, there are product or hosting sales giving you a back end, it's fun to do and/or you don't have other work on, do whatever makes them happy. I'd probably try to schedule something else so I could throw in the travel time, maybe work on the train if you can take public transport, etc. If on the other hand it's a lowball hourly, you don't like the work/the client, you're not learning anything, there is no back end, or you've got lots of other work paying the same or a greater hourly rate, you might have to let the client know that while you'd love to come in for the meeting, it's going to take you three hours of travel time which you would otherwise be billing another client for. You're more than happy to take the meeting by phone, to schedule it as part of a day of onsite consulting or to schedule it for a day when you'd be coming through their neighborhood anyway, and in any of those cases you'd only have to charge the 2.5 hours. If they MUST have you at that time for just 2.5 hours, you're going to have to charge out the travel time because it's money you'd otherwise be making. All you have to bill is your time, so whether you're writing valuable code, sitting in a room chatting with someone, or stuck in traffic, if the only reason you're doing so is because client X asks you to, then the only reason not to charge client X for that time is if you're willing to effectively discount your overall hourly rate to get/keep their business. For the record, there are plenty of clients I'll go out of the way to do what I can for, and there are some which can pay book rate or go hire someone else. It's all supply and demand - not only the supply and demand of programmers, but also the supply and demand of clients. Best Wishes, Peter On 11/30/07 11:25 PM, Mike Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this is too off-topic. I dont think it is but never mind i'll post anyway . What do you other contractors/freelancers do in this scenario: You work off site for a client, working from your own office on a task, charging by the hour for the job. The client calls and says he wants you in his office for a meeting with some of the stakeholders in the job. The meeting will take 2.5 hours, on a day when you'd otherwise be working by the hour for this client or another ... Travel to the client's office is 90 minutes each way, a total of 3 hours travelling time when you count both trips there and back. You obviously charge the client for the 2.5 hours stakeholders meeting, but do you also charge for the 3 hours travel time?If so, at the full chargeout rate or a special travel time rate? I think if you are going to spend 8 hours at the client office, its' like travel to and from work and therefore not chargeable. but since this is a part of a day
[cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this?
I always used to charge for meetings and travel one way. If I spent the whole day at a client (8 hours) then I didn't charge travel. -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Onnis Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2007 3:28 PM To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this? Is it an hoursly based job or a project based job? Like a fix cost quoted? -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2007 3:25 PM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this? Sorry if this is too off-topic. I dont think it is but never mind i'll post anyway . What do you other contractors/freelancers do in this scenario: You work off site for a client, working from your own office on a task, charging by the hour for the job. The client calls and says he wants you in his office for a meeting with some of the stakeholders in the job. The meeting will take 2.5 hours, on a day when you'd otherwise be working by the hour for this client or another ... Travel to the client's office is 90 minutes each way, a total of 3 hours travelling time when you count both trips there and back. You obviously charge the client for the 2.5 hours stakeholders meeting, but do you also charge for the 3 hours travel time?If so, at the full chargeout rate or a special travel time rate? I think if you are going to spend 8 hours at the client office, its' like travel to and from work and therefore not chargeable. but since this is a part of a day that would otherwise be chargeable if you werent going to the meeting, do you charge for the 3 horus taken out of the day travelling? -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this?
Is it an hoursly based job or a project based job? Like a fix cost quoted? -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2007 3:25 PM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this? Sorry if this is too off-topic. I dont think it is but never mind i'll post anyway . What do you other contractors/freelancers do in this scenario: You work off site for a client, working from your own office on a task, charging by the hour for the job. The client calls and says he wants you in his office for a meeting with some of the stakeholders in the job. The meeting will take 2.5 hours, on a day when you'd otherwise be working by the hour for this client or another ... Travel to the client's office is 90 minutes each way, a total of 3 hours travelling time when you count both trips there and back. You obviously charge the client for the 2.5 hours stakeholders meeting, but do you also charge for the 3 hours travel time?If so, at the full chargeout rate or a special travel time rate? I think if you are going to spend 8 hours at the client office, its' like travel to and from work and therefore not chargeable. but since this is a part of a day that would otherwise be chargeable if you werent going to the meeting, do you charge for the 3 horus taken out of the day travelling? -- Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this?
No, the scenario I laid out is a hourly rated job. I should say, by the way, that this is a hypothetical question and not related to any specific situatoin I am facing - merely one i have faced in teh past several times and were never sure whether i handled it the right way. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On 12/1/07, Steve Onnis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it an hoursly based job or a project based job? Like a fix cost quoted? -Original Message- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2007 3:25 PM To: cfaussie Subject: [cfaussie] Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this?
Maybe not a CF related post Mike, but one that I think a lot of people on this list will have to think about, so fair post IMHO. I think that in these circumstances you have to prepare for this in advance and put it in the contract up front. But I would offer a discounted 'travelling' time rate or only charge half the travel time. Cheers, B) Mike Kear wrote: Sorry if this is too off-topic. I dont think it is but never mind i'll post anyway . What do you other contractors/freelancers do in this scenario: You work off site for a client, working from your own office on a task, charging by the hour for the job. The client calls and says he wants you in his office for a meeting with some of the stakeholders in the job. The meeting will take 2.5 hours, on a day when you'd otherwise be working by the hour for this client or another ... Travel to the client's office is 90 minutes each way, a total of 3 hours travelling time when you count both trips there and back. You obviously charge the client for the 2.5 hours stakeholders meeting, but do you also charge for the 3 hours travel time?If so, at the full chargeout rate or a special travel time rate? I think if you are going to spend 8 hours at the client office, its' like travel to and from work and therefore not chargeable. but since this is a part of a day that would otherwise be chargeable if you werent going to the meeting, do you charge for the 3 horus taken out of the day travelling? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Kind of OT - do you guys charge for this?
It really comes down to how busy are you and how bad do you want the work? If it's a great client you like to work with, you get a good hourly rate, you get to develop technology you can sell elsewhere, there are product or hosting sales giving you a back end, it's fun to do and/or you don't have other work on, do whatever makes them happy. I'd probably try to schedule something else so I could throw in the travel time, maybe work on the train if you can take public transport, etc. If on the other hand it's a lowball hourly, you don't like the work/the client, you're not learning anything, there is no back end, or you've got lots of other work paying the same or a greater hourly rate, you might have to let the client know that while you'd love to come in for the meeting, it's going to take you three hours of travel time which you would otherwise be billing another client for. You're more than happy to take the meeting by phone, to schedule it as part of a day of onsite consulting or to schedule it for a day when you'd be coming through their neighborhood anyway, and in any of those cases you'd only have to charge the 2.5 hours. If they MUST have you at that time for just 2.5 hours, you're going to have to charge out the travel time because it's money you'd otherwise be making. All you have to bill is your time, so whether you're writing valuable code, sitting in a room chatting with someone, or stuck in traffic, if the only reason you're doing so is because client X asks you to, then the only reason not to charge client X for that time is if you're willing to effectively discount your overall hourly rate to get/keep their business. For the record, there are plenty of clients I'll go out of the way to do what I can for, and there are some which can pay book rate or go hire someone else. It's all supply and demand - not only the supply and demand of programmers, but also the supply and demand of clients. Best Wishes, Peter On 11/30/07 11:25 PM, Mike Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this is too off-topic. I dont think it is but never mind i'll post anyway . What do you other contractors/freelancers do in this scenario: You work off site for a client, working from your own office on a task, charging by the hour for the job. The client calls and says he wants you in his office for a meeting with some of the stakeholders in the job. The meeting will take 2.5 hours, on a day when you'd otherwise be working by the hour for this client or another ... Travel to the client's office is 90 minutes each way, a total of 3 hours travelling time when you count both trips there and back. You obviously charge the client for the 2.5 hours stakeholders meeting, but do you also charge for the 3 hours travel time?If so, at the full chargeout rate or a special travel time rate? I think if you are going to spend 8 hours at the client office, its' like travel to and from work and therefore not chargeable. but since this is a part of a day that would otherwise be chargeable if you werent going to the meeting, do you charge for the 3 horus taken out of the day travelling? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
