[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
Well, apparently quite a bit of it is traceable back to art music. Non posso farci niente RT - Original Message - From: Brad McEwen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; cittern@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments Roman: Still, it seemed to suggest that all folk music originated in the upper classes. We all knoow how capable the peasant and other lower classes were of creating music. Brad Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He neither said nor implied anything of the sort. Aristocrats rarely composed. Professionals did. RT Roman: That sounds like a crock of #**!! to me, quite frankly. It suggests that only aristrocrats and their ilk are cpable of creating music. Rubish. Brad Roman Turovsky wrote: An ethnomusicologist-composer friend of mine in Ukraine (seen with a cornetto in the video here http://torban.org/pisni/ghomin.html) recently wrote an article in which he argued that virtually all folk music is aristocratic in origin, leaked into lower stratum of society and digested and transformed by it, usually for the better (and not only poetically). In particular he traced Polish Renaissance courtly poetry and the way in which it was adapted by the common folk in Ukraine. Unfortunately he didn't white his article in English RT - Original Message - From: Brad McEwen To: ; Cittern NET Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:20 PM Subject: [CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments Frank: An icon of the traditional English folk music scene, Rod Stradling, recently told me about a place in Italy that had recently redicsovered its own unique traditional music and dances. They were said to be paticular to that reginalone. A small group of dedicted people wen tin search of the old players and dancer to preserve and revive their own distinct heriatage. Rod said that they proudly played a tune learned form one such old fiddler; a tune none of them had ever heard before. they were certain that it was one of those distint tunes unique to theri area. Rod had the unfortunate task of informing them that the tune was Redwing! I don't think that they were too happy about it. Brad Frank Nordberg wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote (although not in this order): . But as Hitler got power, he used the music to fit his scheme of Hitlerjugend, adapted the camps, the songs, nature games, everything to serve his purposes. Yes, it's a sad fact that the symbols of various population groups sometimes have been abused that way. There actually is a relationship between the average folk singing citizen of (insert-any-nation-here) and the full fledged fascist but it's the came kind of relationship as between the guy who drives his car carefully to work every day and the bloke who gets roaring drunk and speeds past the local childcare center at full throtle. But until now the musical link between generations by knowing the old songs is non-existent. I don't really agree with you there Martina. Yes, the direct, obvious link to the songs sung by previous generations may be broken but a tune is just a tune and the essence - or soul if you like - of a country's music is much deeper than that. There is no noticeable connection between German traditional music and Kraftwerk. But even so, that band is so unmistakably German it couldn't possibly have come from anywhere else in the world. The following young generation did not want to learn any old songs, sick of everything smelling like German. Slight digression: This isn't just a post war phenomena. Jazz was very popular in urban Germany long before the average American had heard of it. And Rock 'n Roll WAS cool, for sure. And if it wasn't for the thriving rock'n roll scene in early 60s Hamburg, Beatles wouldn't have happened the way they did. If it wasn't for Kraftwerk, we wouldn't have had rap. (Some may argue the world would have been a little bit better that way but that's beside the point.) The thing is, a nation - or any other cultural group - doesn't build it's music from scratch. It takes some old bits - childhood memories burned into people's mind - some new bits (but not *that* much of it) and lots of exotic elements from far-off lands. Something old, something new, something borrowed - oh and something blue as well since sentimentality always sells. ;-) The mixture is unique to each and every culture and sub-culture but the elements it's made from aren't. Take a really close look at the mix that made up rock'n roll in the first place and try to see how many German bits there are in it. You'll be surprised. Cross cultural influences run in all directions, even the most unexpected ones. At the end of the 19th century a German traveller in Japan fell in love with a stunningly beautiful piece of traditional Japanese poetry. He translated it into German and published it back home where it became
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
Dear Frank, Very interesting essay, and clearly the product of wide experience and a lot of thought. Basically, couldn't agree more with your statements and the lack of an easy answer. The question is, frankly, the answer. And I hope that doesn't sound like too much of a new-age mantra: in this case, I think it's honestly true. The lack of hard lines is the whole picture; if you start trying to create hard-and-fast divisions, you are destroying what you think you're preserving. One might think about looking at the earth from an airplane: the undulations of the ground are there, and are completely contiguous: but once someone comes along and fences it all off into farm or ranch land what you mostly see are the fences and roads: and they're the least natural, least important things in understanding the shape of the land. Or so I think. Kevin On Apr 7, 2008, at 1:43 AM, Frank Nordberg wrote: I'm so short on time right now, I'm reduced to recyclcing old an old rant rather than write a new one. It's one I on the Banjo-L mail list a while ago and it isn't hundred percent à propos the current discussion. But it should be close enough. It's a long rant even by my standards and it didn't exactly go down well first time I posted it. Oh well, I may have a conservatory degree but beneath the veneer of culture, I'm just a simple boy from the countryside so what do I know about folk music anyway? Here we go: --- I had decided to stay out of this folk music debate that seems to have been an underlying theme in most threads here recently, but in the end I just couldn't resist it. So here's my two cents worth of opinion. (You can still get a lot for two cents, at least if you just count the words and not the actual meaning. ;-) What I'm going to do is take the folk music term and compare it to other more or less well defined musical genres: pop music, classical music, traditional music and national music (I think I made that one up myself but you'll see what I mean) and finally to itself. I tried to avoid conclusions and instead just raise a few questions. Didn't quite succeed in that of course. Warning: this post can truly be regarded as a rant. It's unstructured, long-winded and at times quite provocative. Reading it may cause severe sleepiness and/or anger. But I hope that once the reader has woken up/calmed down, he or she may find some good food for thought hidden somewhere in the mess. I'm afraid the rant is more than a little bit Euro-centric. I'm sorry about that but I don't apologize. After all, all I can do is present the topic from my point of view and hope somebody else will add their perspective. --- +++ Folk music vs pop music +++ --- This is a very interesting comparison: what is the difference between an apple and an apple? As I'm sure everybody knows, the semantic meanings of those two terms are identical, the music of the people, and we may well shrug it all off by claiming that if it ain't popular, it ain't folk. In reality things aren't quite as simple. The term pop music means more or less what it says. It's the music the majority of the people listens to, digs and perhaps even plays themselves. It may be good music, it may be bad music but it's definitely popular. Folk music on the other hand is rarely used in its literal meaning. Some of the roots to this, seems to lie in the industrial revolution of the 19th and early 20th century and the massive movement of people from the countryside to the town and cities this caused. The guy moving to Detroit City figures out that makin' them cars and bars ain't such a great life after all and he wanna go home. His people's music is the music of *his* people, the music he remembers from his childhood filtered through the pink glasses of nostalgia (often found at the bottom of the seventh pint of beer btw - in case anybody here wanna go look for 'em). Of course, if he actually goes back to the cotton fields in Louisiana people will probably ask him what his coming there for. He has changed, the people he left behind him has changed (especially that childhood sweetheart you know) and perhaps his memories weren't very accurate after all. This nostalgia effect can also be applied to a completely fictional place of origin. Those of you who are American wouldn't believe how many Europeans there are who seem utterly convinced that their roots are in Texas (since the 1960s folk boom) or in Ireland (more recently). --- Another important reason why folk music doesn't usually mean what the term literally says, is that it's used for segregational purposes. It's absolutely wonderful for that since it can be turned two ways and still work. It can be used to describe the music of the others, that crowd of commoners who
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
One of the interesting things about the Welsh crwth is that while there are several extant instruments (including a nice one in the National Library in Aberystwyth) the playing tradition got completely killed off by the religious movement that encouraged people to get rid of instruments and stop dancing. Both Bob Evans and Cass Meurig are revivalists - there were no old players of crwths they could learn from. Fortunately for harpists this is not the case with triple harps. In addition to Nanci Richards, there were Gypsy harpists such as Eldra Jarman, who kept the the traditional music and ways of playing alive. The WElsh are very proud of their unbroken tradition of harp playing. Nancy Carlin Brad McEwen wrote: Well, I could be wrong, but since bowed instruments are more recent that plucked, it would seem that way. That's probably true but the bow does still go a long way back. There certainly were bowed lyres similar to the crwth in Europe during the medieval times. In addition to Wales, the such instruments also survived well into the 20th century in Sweden and Estonia and may still be in use there today for all I know. The crowd is one of those many instruments that (I believe) evolved from the Greek Kithara and are known throughout Europe by various names..zither, citera, etc (ha ha). It's actually quite possible that a crwth style instrument was the direct ancestor to the cittern: First you have the lyre. You put a fingerboard underneath the string and get a crwth. Then you strengthen the fingerboard so it'll take the pull of the strings on its own so you don't need the horns anymore. It's just one of several theories about the development of stringed instruments before 1500 but it is one of the more plausible ones. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
I really enjoyed your comments on folk music. One thing I find interesting is some of the differences in how Canadians fit music into the categories. Blues is much more a part of folk in Canada. And the influence of English music (and French) is stronger in their folk music. Nancy Carlin I'm so short on time right now, I'm reduced to recyclcing old an old rant rather than write a new one. It's one I on the Banjo-L mail list a while ago and it isn't hundred percent =E0 propos the current discussion. But it should be close enough. It's a long rant even by my standards and it didn't exactly go down well first time I posted it. Oh well, I may have a conservatory degree but beneath the veneer of culture, I'm just a simple boy from the countryside so what do I know about folk music anyway? Here we go: --- I had decided to stay out of this folk music debate that seems to have been an underlying theme in most threads here recently, but in the end I just couldn't resist it. So here's my two cents worth of opinion. (You can still get a lot for two cents, at least if you just count the words and not the actual meaning. ;-) What I'm going to do is take the folk music term and compare it to other more or less well defined musical genres: pop music, classical music, traditional music and national music (I think I made that one up myself but you'll see what I mean) and finally to itself. I tried to avoid conclusions and instead just raise a few questions. Didn't quite succeed in that of course. Warning: this post can truly be regarded as a rant. It's unstructured, long-winded and at times quite provocative. Reading it may cause severe sleepiness and/or anger. But I hope that once the reader has woken up/calmed down, he or she may find some good food for thought hidden somewhere in the mess. I'm afraid the rant is more than a little bit Euro-centric. I'm sorry about that but I don't apologize. After all, all I can do is present the topic from my point of view and hope somebody else will add their perspective. --- +++ Folk music vs pop music +++ --- This is a very interesting comparison: what is the difference between an apple and an apple? As I'm sure everybody knows, the semantic meanings of those two terms are identical, the music of the people, and we may well shrug it all off by claiming that if it ain't popular, it ain't folk. In reality things aren't quite as simple. The term pop music means more or less what it says. It's the music the majority of the people listens to, digs and perhaps even plays themselves. It may be good music, it may be bad music but it's definitely popular. Folk music on the other hand is rarely used in its literal meaning. Some of the roots to this, seems to lie in the industrial revolution of the 19th and early 20th century and the massive movement of people from the countryside to the town and cities this caused. The guy moving to Detroit City figures out that makin' them cars and bars ain't such a great life after all and he wanna go home. His people's music is the music of *his* people, the music he remembers from his childhood filtered through the pink glasses of nostalgia (often found at the bottom of the seventh pint of beer btw - in case anybody here wanna go look for 'em). Of course, if he actually goes back to the cotton fields in Louisiana people will probably ask him what his coming there for. He has changed, the people he left behind him has changed (especially that childhood sweetheart you know) and perhaps his memories weren't very accurate after all. This nostalgia effect can also be applied to a completely fictional place of origin. Those of you who are American wouldn't believe how many Europeans there are who seem utterly convinced that their roots are in Texas (since the 1960s folk boom) or in Ireland (more recently). --- Another important reason why folk music doesn't usually mean what the term literally says, is that it's used for segregational purposes. It's absolutely wonderful for that since it can be turned two ways and still work. It can be used to describe the music of the others, that crowd of commoners who aren't as worthy as me and my friends. It can also be used to define our kind of music as opposed to the music of all the others who may folks too but who cares. Among other things, this duplicity allows us to use the folk music term to imply a sort of down-to-earth elitism, you know kind'a like: I'm just a regular guy, only more so than most people. (At this point I'm glad I live way out in the outbacks far from any other list member and his shotgun. I have to say to my defence though, that I deliberately avoided a very tempting direct Orwell quote here. ;-) - +++ Folk music
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
On Apr 7, 2008, at 1:43 AM, Frank Nordberg wrote: Your folk music is a means to define where you come from and where you belong in this world. And since we don't all belong in the same place (fortunately) it may not be the same as somebody else's folk music. Dear Frank, you invited me to add to discussion another point of view. So I'll try to do this as cautious as possible. Being German I had my own task of defining Folk Music. Before I started doing research on the German Waldzither, I wouldn't have dreamt of music as a political item. But then I had to dig out the root of literally every song my father had scetched down in handwritten notes without texts (they knew them by heart anyway) to make sure I was not quoting Nazi-stuff in my documentation. The result was to understand, that there is no German Folk music nowadays, no songs that are popular over more than one generation. The Wandervogel- movement had started to recollect songs from all sources at the end of the 19th century, their fashion of singing spread to all levels of society, from academic bourgoise youngsters in the beginning to working-class people and others. The christian groups walked and sang in the same spirit as the communists, scouts and so on. The songs found or invented to fit the longing for romantic topics became common knowledge to the generation 1st World War as well as to the generation 2nd World War. In the song books was published nearly everything from 16.th century to Schubert, Mozart, popular Kitsch, joking silly songs and soldier stuff. But as Hitler got power, he used the music to fit his scheme of Hitlerjugend, adapted the camps, the songs, nature games, everything to serve his purposes. From 1945 on therefore so many German songs had to be judged by political involvement. The following young generation did not want to learn any old songs, sick of everything smelling like German. And Rock 'n Roll WAS cool, for sure. But until now the musical link between generations by knowing the old songs is non-existent. When I sing some of the harmless old songs to the old generation, they simply get back a junk of their youth, they were not allowed to have any more after the War. Sometimes this is extremely moving, because the memories come along with the music (and they are not always funny). I don't know, how this is in other European countries, but we have the tendency, that young people just don't and can't sing any more. They can't identify themself with Germany. This is still not politically correct. Everyone who can sing a major chord trys for Superstar or a singer's career, but without that it is not cool at all to sing. So we have a fashion now for Irish Folk, Didgeridoos, Djembe-Drumming, Jazz and Blues, but the German Folk is left to that 1970ies Generation or some bands from former GDR, where people's protests found a (more or less coded) consens and represent the romantic eastern way nowadays, as society has got rather tough and unromantic. Some songs are also kept, if the fit the middleages fad. The latter is again the longing for finding a Folks consens, a home feeling. At the last Waldzither-conference there came up critizism, that just a few German pieces were sung at the concert. Irish Folk, Jonny Cash, middleages, and German Folk in the way I just described and Swiss traditional 19th ctry stuff. Well, that is sheer reality, nothing to be critizised. A fact. For myself I'm musically very open, curious and eager to learn, so I won't cry for the good old times that had never been good in reality. I keep some of the old songs for their own beauty against the common forgetting everything but it doesn't make sense to create a mission of reviving the lot. And, yes, there is also a true Bavarian tradition, non-commercial, where everyone is invited to join in the music, perfect or not, without sheet music, open and tolerant (and simple if one can follow four tonalities in bs down and up). There I found my way back to music after a gap of 20 years Thanks all for listening to that load Martina Rosenberger -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
David: Well, I could be wrong, but since bowed instruments are more recent that plucked, it would seem that way. The crowd is one of those many instruments that (I believe) evolved from the Greek Kithara and are known throughout Europe by various names..zither, citera, etc (ha ha). The same root word gave us guitar and cittern. Someone along the way decided to try bowing a crowd (crwth) and the bowed instrument associated with Wales evolved fro that. That's what I think happened, anyway. Brad David Cushman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Brad, Thanks for the clarification - I had understood the evolution to have gone the other direction (evolving from other northern european bowed lyres). It is quite a tangle, isn't it? Best regards, David On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Brad McEwen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi: it si my understanding tha the original medaeival crowd from which the bowed Welsh crwth derived, was a plucked instrument. Brad David Cushman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I have done a little research into the crwth and it is indeed a bowed instrument that survives in Wales. There is a group called Bragod who have done some research into the instrument and have some novel ideas about it. It is generally tuned Pythagorean and musically makes use of lots of drone notes to support a melody line. Check out this site for a little video background: http://www.bragod.com/4crwthhar.html There are a couple of sources for the crwth (also seen in literary references as croud or crowd): http://larkinthemorning.com/product.asp?pn=EAR035ss=crwth http://www.michaeljking.com/crwth.htm A bit off from the main thread topic, but hopefully of interest. --David On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 2:09 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote: Damien, I'm sure other people will disagree with me, so I'll send this to the cittern list! (also: the 'crwth' is a bowed instrument, not plucked) Damien Delgrossi wrote: I am suprised to read you saying that UK doesn't have plucked instruments traditions. What about banjos? and pictures showing popular mandolin played by folk performers long long time ago? Are you sure of what you said? Stuart wrote: I think so. In the 1950s, some folk singers used pianos as accompaniment! The guitar - as an accompaniment to folk songs - is from the 1960s. The traditional folk songs collected from the 19th century were all sung unaccompanied. The only genuine folk string instrument (apart from fiddles) is the hammered dulcimer. Banjos, guitars and mandolins have been around in Britain since the late 19th century. But not playing traditional folk music. They played popular tunes and popular 'folk' tunes (only a distant relation to traditional folk music) and bits of classical music. Nowadays, many folk players players play modern citterns, flat-backed bouzoukis, mandolins and mandolas etc. But this is all from the 1960s and 1970s. There are no plucked instruments in traditional Irish music either (before the last few decades). Stuart Good morning Stuart, It is very interesting what you wrote. I understand well the difference you do between folk popular tune and traditional music. People often don't do the same and think that popular tune are always traditional. You're right when you say that is not. So the only plucked instrument traditional is the medieval crwth from Wales in the 9th century? Regards, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- - You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. - You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. --
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
Related to this topic, there will be an article about the influence of art music on traditional music in the Summer 2008 issue of Fiddler Magazine [ http://www.fiddle.com/ ], written by Andrew Kuntz, who is responsible for The Fiddler’s Companion website. http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/index.html I've read it and it's quite interesting and well researched. Like Frank said in an earlier post, he points out that the boundaries between classical, popular and traditional music were much more permeable prior to the 20th century, at which time widening gaps between the genres became chasms. Earlier there was much less distinction between what was considered art music and what was popular or even traditional, especially during the 18th and early 19th centuries. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
Doc Rossi wrote: Related to this topic, there will be an article about the influence of art music on traditional music in the Summer 2008 issue of Fiddler Magazine [ http://www.fiddle.com/ ], written by Andrew Kuntz, who is responsible for The Fiddler’s Companion website. http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/index.html I've read it and it's quite interesting and well researched. Like Frank said in an earlier post, he points out that the boundaries between classical, popular and traditional music were much more permeable prior to the 20th century, at which time widening gaps between the genres became chasms. Earlier there was much less distinction between what was considered art music and what was popular or even traditional, especially during the 18th and early 19th centuries. Yes, but the fact (if it really is a fact) that certain distinctions weren't made at an earlier time doesn't mean that the distinctions aren't nevertheless worth making. A folk tune collected by C.J Sharpe (or Bartok or whoever) around 1900 is very different from 'On the Banks of Allen Water' or 'Robin Adair' set for banjo or uke (etc) from the same period. The banjo/mando/uke/guitar arrangements of folk tunes (for a middle class audience) sit alongside Reveries, Marches, ballroom dances etc. The songs and tunes collected/documented by socially elevated enthusiasts right back to the early 19th century occupy a very different world. Further back in time there's surely an important distinction between middle/upper class music about trothing shepherds and shepherdesses - courtly or bourgeois songs and dances with pastoral/Arcadian themes on the one hand and whatever it was that 'masses' (including shepherds and shepherdesses) could possibly have sung and danced on the other. The sophisticated variations for lute (or the later, clumsier ones for English guitar) of folk or folk-like tunes are not what the 'masses' could ever have played. (For a start the cost of a lute or cittern or English guitar..., the cost of the music, the ability to read) Some of the Scottish lute/mandore settings seem to hint at a music that really is not the popular music of the middle/upper class. But that might just be the ineptness of those who wrote the settings. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
Damien, I'm sure other people will disagree with me, so I'll send this to the cittern list! (also: the 'crwth' is a bowed instrument, not plucked) Damien Delgrossi wrote: I am suprised to read you saying that UK doesn't have plucked instruments traditions. What about banjos? and pictures showing popular mandolin played by folk performers long long time ago? Are you sure of what you said? Stuart wrote: I think so. In the 1950s, some folk singers used pianos as accompaniment! The guitar - as an accompaniment to folk songs - is from the 1960s. The traditional folk songs collected from the 19th century were all sung unaccompanied. The only genuine folk string instrument (apart from fiddles) is the hammered dulcimer. Banjos, guitars and mandolins have been around in Britain since the late 19th century. But not playing traditional folk music. They played popular tunes and popular 'folk' tunes (only a distant relation to traditional folk music) and bits of classical music. Nowadays, many folk players players play modern citterns, flat-backed bouzoukis, mandolins and mandolas etc. But this is all from the 1960s and 1970s. There are no plucked instruments in traditional Irish music either (before the last few decades). Stuart Good morning Stuart, It is very interesting what you wrote. I understand well the difference you do between folk popular tune and traditional music. People often don't do the same and think that popular tune are always traditional. You're right when you say that is not. So the only plucked instrument traditional is the medieval crwth from Wales in the 9th century? Regards, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
Does the Pictish traingular harp count? Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
Rob MacKillop wrote: Does the Pictish traingular harp count? It certainly does. I was trying to keep things simple by only focusing on fretted instruments but on second though that may not have been a good idea. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Traditional British (plucked) instruments
The crwth has one plucked string on the bass side of the instrument. The rest are over a rather flat bridge and are bowed. Here is a link to some pictures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crwth Cass Meurig, who is in one of the pictures, wrote a PhD dissertation on the instrument and has made a CD all of crwth music. Nancy Carlin Damien, I'm sure other people will disagree with me, so I'll send this to the cittern list! (also: the 'crwth' is a bowed instrument, not plucked) Damien Delgrossi wrote: I am suprised to read you saying that UK doesn't have plucked instruments traditions. What about banjos? and pictures showing popular mandolin played by folk performers long long time ago? Are you sure of what you said? Stuart wrote: I think so. In the 1950s, some folk singers used pianos as accompaniment! The guitar - as an accompaniment to folk songs - is from the 1960s. The traditional folk songs collected from the 19th century were all sung unaccompanied. The only genuine folk string instrument (apart from fiddles) is the hammered dulcimer. Banjos, guitars and mandolins have been around in Britain since the late 19th century. But not playing traditional folk music. They played popular tunes and popular 'folk' tunes (only a distant relation to traditional folk music) and bits of classical music. Nowadays, many folk players players play modern citterns, flat-backed bouzoukis, mandolins and mandolas etc. But this is all from the 1960s and 1970s. There are no plucked instruments in traditional Irish music either (before the last few decades). Stuart Good morning Stuart, It is very interesting what you wrote. I understand well the difference you do between folk popular tune and traditional music. People often don't do the same and think that popular tune are always traditional. You're right when you say that is not. So the only plucked instrument traditional is the medieval crwth from Wales in the 9th century? Regards, Damien To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Representing: FROM WALES - Robin Huw Bowen, Crasdant, Neil Meg Browning's Never Mind the Bocs Carreg Lafar, FROM ENGLAND - The City Waites, Jez Lowe, Jez Lowe The Bad Pennies, FROM FRANCE - Gabriel Yacoub, FROM SPAIN - La Musga=F1a and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere Lute Quartet and Paul Beier Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
