Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
Thanks Jay, Those articles are indeed inspirational. I was just wondering - back from your TW days - would the arguments in those articles make sense for a TW consultant to present to a client? Cheers, Julian On Tuesday, 19 June 2012 01:22:34 UTC+10, Jay Fields wrote: learning curve, and training time be reduced for new recruits ? Also how do you pitch it to the management ? I'd read this for inspiration on how to talk to mgmt. Perhaps I'd even suggest they read it. http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Related: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html Cheers, Jay -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
That's a complicated question. I think consultants* are incentivized to present new technologies to clients and convince them it's the right choice.** However, I don't think it ends up being the right choice for the company on most occasions. I wish that weren't true, but I believe that's the most common case. If a client is already using Clojure, and wants to bring a consultancy in, that's great for the consultancy. However, if a (traditionally Java) client wants to bring in a consultancy, they are not likely to be able to support any application written in Clojure. There will definitely be exceptions; however, I think the general rule holds. Adopting a language is tough and requires deep organizational commitment. If a client is willing to make that commitment, great! If not, you're likely going to fail - sooner or later. The most interesting technical project I ever worked on was 75% abandoned when our team left, as the in house devs were not able to support it. Part of that was due to the way the client structured the contract; however, the technology choice also contributed to that outcome. I do believe that Clojure provides an advantage. I use it every day, partly for that reason. However, you need the people around that can support it, or it needs to be 'complete' - meaning zero maintenance. A good example could be building a prototype. * my statements are generalized to all consultancies, none of my comments reflect opinions that only apply TW. ** given current consulting models. It doesn't have to be this way. On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jay Fields j...@jayfields.com wrote: That's a complicated question. I think consultants* are incentivized to present new technologies to clients and convince them it's the right choice.** However, I don't think it ends up being the right choice for the company on most occasions. I wish that weren't true, but I believe that's the most common case. If a client is already using Clojure, and wants to bring a consultancy in, that's great for the consultancy. However, if a (traditionally Java) client wants to bring in a consultancy, they are not likely to be able to support any application written in Clojure. There will definitely be exceptions; however, I think the general rule holds. Adopting a language is tough and requires deep organizational commitment. If a client is willing to make that commitment, great! If not, you're likely going to fail - sooner or later. The most interesting technical project I ever worked on was 75% abandoned when our team left, as the in house devs were not able to support it. Part of that was due to the way the client structured the contract; however, the technology choice also contributed to that outcome. I do believe that Clojure provides an advantage. I use it every day, partly for that reason. However, you need the people around that can * my statements are generalized to all consultancies, none of my comments reflect opinions that only apply TW. ** given current consulting models. It doesn't have to be this way. On Jun 20, 2012, at 7:37 AM, Julian wrote: Thanks Jay, Those articles are indeed inspirational. I was just wondering - back from your TW days - would the arguments in those articles make sense for a TW consultant to present to a client? Cheers, Julian On Tuesday, 19 June 2012 01:22:34 UTC+10, Jay Fields wrote: learning curve, and training time be reduced for new recruits ? Also how do you pitch it to the management ? I'd read this for inspiration on how to talk to mgmt. Perhaps I'd even suggest they read it. http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Related: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html Cheers, Jay -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
Oh, and I also believe training is mostly a waste of resources. Training is pushing information. It really depends how it is constructed. If it is a domain knowledge - this is just a info push. If this is a skill to be acquired - I have seen many hands on dedicated labs very effective. Now in terms of Clojure - training seem to be a bad word. It is more an exercise and practice what is needed. Like getting a black belt. I say give them koans and 4clojure problems to solve (individually), week of time and this will lay out a good foundation. Speaking from own experience - a month ago I did not know what Clojure is - now I am fairly fluent at basic level. A. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
Hi, Just wanted to get pointers on how do you manage the training of recruits. It is difficult to find clojure talent, and we are located in India, where it is close to impossible. Also the non availability of talent becomes a hard sell to management too while introducing clojure projects. How can the learning curve, and training time be reduced for new recruits ? Also how do you pitch it to the management ? Thanks, Murtaza -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
When it comes to new graduates, they'll probably latch onto Clojure just as quickly as to Java or anything else. At EuroClojure, Jon Pither and Hakan Raberg mentioned that in their mixed Java/Clojure ecosystem they train new hires on Clojure, which eventually makes them better Java programmers! Cheers, Chris On 18 June 2012 08:11, Murtaza Husain murtaza.hus...@sevenolives.comwrote: Hi, Just wanted to get pointers on how do you manage the training of recruits. It is difficult to find clojure talent, and we are located in India, where it is close to impossible. Also the non availability of talent becomes a hard sell to management too while introducing clojure projects. How can the learning curve, and training time be reduced for new recruits ? Also how do you pitch it to the management ? Thanks, Murtaza -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
On Jun 18, 2012, at 2:11 AM, Murtaza Husain wrote: Hi, Just wanted to get pointers on how do you manage the training of recruits. It is difficult to find clojure talent, I don't hire based on knowledge, I hire based on ability/desire to *learn*. For senior people I also want the same ability/desire to share what they've learned with others. How can the learning curve, and training time be reduced for new recruits ? Put them on teams full of people who like to learn and to teach and tell them their 1st job is to learn, not to ship code so get cracking. Oh, and I also believe training is mostly a waste of resources. Training is pushing information. Learning is a self-directed activity. I look for people who would be bored stiff in training (a good sign is if they work ahead of the trainer and otherwise break the class). Also how do you pitch it to the management ? Point out how well the other ways have been working out for the industry. bill -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
Bill that is very interesting. So how do you make them learn. Do you pair them up with someone who knows on some task? I mean how do you structure learning ? Bcoz as you mentioned that put them into a team where everyone likes to share, however everyone may be working on things above them, and they may not be able to grasp, and they may also not have time. On Monday, June 18, 2012 5:01:45 PM UTC+5:30, Bill Caputo wrote: On Jun 18, 2012, at 2:11 AM, Murtaza Husain wrote: Hi, Just wanted to get pointers on how do you manage the training of recruits. It is difficult to find clojure talent, I don't hire based on knowledge, I hire based on ability/desire to *learn*. For senior people I also want the same ability/desire to share what they've learned with others. How can the learning curve, and training time be reduced for new recruits ? Put them on teams full of people who like to learn and to teach and tell them their 1st job is to learn, not to ship code so get cracking. Oh, and I also believe training is mostly a waste of resources. Training is pushing information. Learning is a self-directed activity. I look for people who would be bored stiff in training (a good sign is if they work ahead of the trainer and otherwise break the class). Also how do you pitch it to the management ? Point out how well the other ways have been working out for the industry. bill -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
On Jun 18, 2012, at 6:37 AM, Murtaza Husain wrote: Bill that is very interesting. So how do you make them learn. Haha, I don't make anyone do *anything* on my team (I'm not exaggerating). My first (and more or less last) directive as team-lead is to declare it a team of peers. We ask people to join us who want to do what's needed for us to succeed. At most we will explain that the team uses clojure (and javascript and ruby, and something new when we need it) and if they aren't *eager* to learn new things to solve problems (and that's obvious in about 30 seconds of interviewing), there's no point in wasting our time. Do you pair them up with someone who knows on some task? I mean how do you structure learning ? If this stuff was reducible to rules, you wouldn't need learners, you could do the whole training bit - maybe even write a program to write code for you. Hire people who like to learn, put them on the team. That's it. The team figures it out from there (i.e. different in each case, based on personalities, languages, tasks, goals, current deadlines, etc.) Bcoz as you mentioned that put them into a team where everyone likes to share, however everyone may be working on things above them, If getting this person up to speed is important for team's success, there is nothing above them... there is only velocity. If velocity is more important than learning, the ramp-up time will be longer... if the wider organization values speed over competence, you'll get shitty code (that's not a learning clojure issue). and they may not be able to grasp, and they may also not have time. If either of these are true - and we made the mistake of asking them to join our team - they wouldn't be around long enough for it to matter. bill -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
Thanks Bill !! On Monday, June 18, 2012 5:19:06 PM UTC+5:30, Bill Caputo wrote: On Jun 18, 2012, at 6:37 AM, Murtaza Husain wrote: Bill that is very interesting. So how do you make them learn. Haha, I don't make anyone do *anything* on my team (I'm not exaggerating). My first (and more or less last) directive as team-lead is to declare it a team of peers. We ask people to join us who want to do what's needed for us to succeed. At most we will explain that the team uses clojure (and javascript and ruby, and something new when we need it) and if they aren't *eager* to learn new things to solve problems (and that's obvious in about 30 seconds of interviewing), there's no point in wasting our time. Do you pair them up with someone who knows on some task? I mean how do you structure learning ? If this stuff was reducible to rules, you wouldn't need learners, you could do the whole training bit - maybe even write a program to write code for you. Hire people who like to learn, put them on the team. That's it. The team figures it out from there (i.e. different in each case, based on personalities, languages, tasks, goals, current deadlines, etc.) Bcoz as you mentioned that put them into a team where everyone likes to share, however everyone may be working on things above them, If getting this person up to speed is important for team's success, there is nothing above them... there is only velocity. If velocity is more important than learning, the ramp-up time will be longer... if the wider organization values speed over competence, you'll get shitty code (that's not a learning clojure issue). and they may not be able to grasp, and they may also not have time. If either of these are true - and we made the mistake of asking them to join our team - they wouldn't be around long enough for it to matter. bill -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Murtaza Husain murtaza.hus...@sevenolives.com wrote: Hi, Just wanted to get pointers on how do you manage the training of recruits. It is difficult to find clojure talent, and we are located in India, where it is close to impossible. Also the non availability of talent becomes a hard sell to management too while introducing clojure projects. How can the learning curve, and training time be reduced for new recruits ? Also how do you pitch it to the management ? I'd read this for inspiration on how to talk to mgmt. Perhaps I'd even suggest they read it. http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Related: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html As far as actually finding people, I'd look in the Ruby community. Many of those people are fine with functional style and not too attached to a specific language. And, do what Bill recommended. Cheers, Jay -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: How to speed up Clojure Training for New Recruitment
Start a meetup group. The people who show up more than a few times with no up front promise of a job opportunity will likely be the kind of people you want to hire. (Don't tell recruiters that though, please.) In addition, it gives you an opportunity to talk to potential hires in a relaxed setting without a lot of the BS that normally goes along with a formal recruiting process. Cheers, '(Devin Walters) On Monday, June 18, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Jay Fields wrote: On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Murtaza Husain murtaza.hus...@sevenolives.com (mailto:murtaza.hus...@sevenolives.com) wrote: Hi, Just wanted to get pointers on how do you manage the training of recruits. It is difficult to find clojure talent, and we are located in India, where it is close to impossible. Also the non availability of talent becomes a hard sell to management too while introducing clojure projects. How can the learning curve, and training time be reduced for new recruits ? Also how do you pitch it to the management ? I'd read this for inspiration on how to talk to mgmt. Perhaps I'd even suggest they read it. http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Related: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html As far as actually finding people, I'd look in the Ruby community. Many of those people are fine with functional style and not too attached to a specific language. And, do what Bill recommended. Cheers, Jay -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com (mailto:clojure@googlegroups.com) Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com (mailto:clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com) For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
