Re: Rationale: cljctools.mult - hypothetical clojure(script) extension for vscode. Should mult be made? Critique, comments ?

[Sergei Udris]

Do appreciate your response, better than I hoped for, will digest it and 
take into consideration.
The goal is not vanity, but creating value, so mult is not a rush to prove 
oneself. 
Will take all the critique and comments and seriously think whether or not 
mult brings value. If not, I won't waste time with it.

>> Why is it a goal to write an editor in Clojure? Would this editor be a 
general one, or would it be a Clojure editor? 
- if vscode is the current best, even that can be improved (but that's a 
rationale of its own) 
- a general one
>> That makes me think about Clover, from the same author as Chlorine for 
Atom
- did not no about those tools, definitely will take a look, thank you
>> so that Clover could benefit from some of the work that has been put 
into making Calva nice
- Calva is indeed a trailblazing project and amazing work
>> One way forward for mult could be to pick up Clover + help in 
refactoring Calva to make parts of it usable by Clover users
- yes, that was my initial thinking, that's why I forked Calva and wanted 
to modify it for my needs
- I lived and breathed Typescript for many years, did multiple large 
commercial monster projects in it, so I thought I just tweak Calva and make 
it mult-y
- but doing things in clojure(script) is much more productive, especially 
handling asynchrony with core.async (CSP) - that has no analogs, besides 
golang, so core.async is the key
 >> but always found my time to be too limited to not spend on actually 
making Calva more usable instead
- oh, I can't thank you enough, without Calva it would be dim, and I do 
understand that it's not all rainbows and unicorns, sometimes one just 
needs to get it done 
>> I think (and maybe it is me being biased) that beginning Clojurians 
benefit from one clear option for VS Code, so I think the second way 
forward there is the best.
- I disagree, I think choice(options) is better
- but again, mult is under question and will be thoroughly considered

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 11:47:48 AM UTC+3 Peter Strömberg wrote:

> Looks super interesting! Some quick thoughts/questions:
>
> Why is it a goal to write an editor in Clojure? Would this editor be a 
> general one, or would it be a Clojure editor? 
>
> I am of course happy you see Calva as a good option for Clojure coding. I 
> think the major thing lacking from it is Socket REPL support. That makes me 
> think about Clover, from the same author as Chlorine for Atom. Chlorine 
> ticks off a lot of your boxes. Clover is currently of a much more limited 
> use than Chlorine, because reasons. One of which is that Clojure coding is 
> about more than the REPL, and some of that is a lot of work and Calva is a 
> bit of a monolith making its formatter and stuff part of the Calva package 
> only. I have tried to refactor Calva some to make it less monolithic so 
> that Clover could benefit from some of the work that has been put into 
> making Calva nice. But I got stuck, or rather ran out of time. One way 
> forward for mult could be to pick up Clover + help in refactoring Calva to 
> make parts of it usable by Clover users.
>
> Another way forward could be to start porting more of Calva to 
> ClojureScript (it is partly written in CLJS, actually). I have made several 
> attempts at this, but always found my time to be too limited to not spend 
> on actually making Calva more usable instead.
>
> I think (and maybe it is me being biased) that beginning Clojurians 
> benefit from one clear option for VS Code, so I think the second way 
> forward there is the best.
>
> I'm plugging the Tao of Calva here, for easy comparison between the goals 
> of mult and the goals of Calva: 
> https://github.com/BetterThanTomorrow/calva/wiki
>
> Regards,
> /Peter
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:29 AM Sergei Udris  wrote:
>
>> # mult: hypothetical clojure(script) extension for vscode
>>
>> https://github.com/cljctools/mult
>>
>> ## rationale
>>
>> - clojure(script) IDE experience is no minor issue - it's the thing 
>> between you and programs
>>
>> - the editor and the extension 
>>   - should be long-term satisfactory, enjoyable and even inspiring
>>   - should be open source
>>   - should be written in clojure, or at least the extension should be 
>> written in clojure(script)
>> - for simplicity
>> - for asynchrony done via processes
>> - the extension should
>>   - support multiple repl connections from one editor window
>>   - have a file configuration (for user and projects), where connections and 
>> repls can be specified (to not depend on key-combo connection sequences)
>>   - be simpler, code-wise and feature-wise 
>> - making an editor in clojure is, no doubt, a goal, but the extension for an 
>> existing editor is a logical first step
>>   - the work of making an extension is trasferrable even into an editor 
>> written in clojure, so the work won't be lost
>> - existing editor + extension combos
>>   - Emacs + Cider
>> - perfect, if you're into it
>>   - 

Re: Rationale: cljctools.mult - hypothetical clojure(script) extension for vscode. Should mult be made? Critique, comments ?

[Peter Strömberg]

Looks super interesting! Some quick thoughts/questions:

Why is it a goal to write an editor in Clojure? Would this editor be a
general one, or would it be a Clojure editor?

I am of course happy you see Calva as a good option for Clojure coding. I
think the major thing lacking from it is Socket REPL support. That makes me
think about Clover, from the same author as Chlorine for Atom. Chlorine
ticks off a lot of your boxes. Clover is currently of a much more limited
use than Chlorine, because reasons. One of which is that Clojure coding is
about more than the REPL, and some of that is a lot of work and Calva is a
bit of a monolith making its formatter and stuff part of the Calva package
only. I have tried to refactor Calva some to make it less monolithic so
that Clover could benefit from some of the work that has been put into
making Calva nice. But I got stuck, or rather ran out of time. One way
forward for mult could be to pick up Clover + help in refactoring Calva to
make parts of it usable by Clover users.

Another way forward could be to start porting more of Calva to
ClojureScript (it is partly written in CLJS, actually). I have made several
attempts at this, but always found my time to be too limited to not spend
on actually making Calva more usable instead.

I think (and maybe it is me being biased) that beginning Clojurians benefit
from one clear option for VS Code, so I think the second way forward there
is the best.

I'm plugging the Tao of Calva here, for easy comparison between the goals
of mult and the goals of Calva:
https://github.com/BetterThanTomorrow/calva/wiki

Regards,
/Peter

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:29 AM Sergei Udris  wrote:

> # mult: hypothetical clojure(script) extension for vscode
>
> https://github.com/cljctools/mult
>
> ## rationale
>
> - clojure(script) IDE experience is no minor issue - it's the thing
> between you and programs
>
> - the editor and the extension
>   - should be long-term satisfactory, enjoyable and even inspiring
>   - should be open source
>   - should be written in clojure, or at least the extension should be written 
> in clojure(script)
> - for simplicity
> - for asynchrony done via processes
> - the extension should
>   - support multiple repl connections from one editor window
>   - have a file configuration (for user and projects), where connections and 
> repls can be specified (to not depend on key-combo connection sequences)
>   - be simpler, code-wise and feature-wise
> - making an editor in clojure is, no doubt, a goal, but the extension for an 
> existing editor is a logical first step
>   - the work of making an extension is trasferrable even into an editor 
> written in clojure, so the work won't be lost
> - existing editor + extension combos
>   - Emacs + Cider
> - perfect, if you're into it
>   - IntelliJ + Cursive
> - both closed source, Cursive comes with conditions
>   - VSCode + Calva
> - can be considered the current best option
> - VSCode is the undeniable best open source editor
> - Calva works perfectly, but is written in typescript
> - nodejs runtime is undesirable, but not a problem
>
>
> Should mult be made ? Critique, comments are appreciated.
>
>
> Rationale can also be found here(same):
>
> https://github.com/cljctools/mult/blob/master/docs/design.md#rationale
>
> Same post can be found on a separate mailing list:
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/cljctools/c/Qyz0qCxVC-Y
>
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> .
>

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Rationale: cljctools.mult - hypothetical clojure(script) extension for vscode. Should mult be made? Critique, comments ?

[Sergei Udris]

# mult: hypothetical clojure(script) extension for vscode

https://github.com/cljctools/mult

## rationale

- clojure(script) IDE experience is no minor issue - it's the thing between
you and programs

- the editor and the extension
  - should be long-term satisfactory, enjoyable and even inspiring
  - should be open source
  - should be written in clojure, or at least the extension should be
written in clojure(script)
- for simplicity
- for asynchrony done via processes
- the extension should
  - support multiple repl connections from one editor window
  - have a file configuration (for user and projects), where
connections and repls can be specified (to not depend on key-combo
connection sequences)
  - be simpler, code-wise and feature-wise
- making an editor in clojure is, no doubt, a goal, but the extension
for an existing editor is a logical first step
  - the work of making an extension is trasferrable even into an
editor written in clojure, so the work won't be lost
- existing editor + extension combos
  - Emacs + Cider
- perfect, if you're into it
  - IntelliJ + Cursive
- both closed source, Cursive comes with conditions
  - VSCode + Calva
- can be considered the current best option
- VSCode is the undeniable best open source editor
- Calva works perfectly, but is written in typescript
- nodejs runtime is undesirable, but not a problem


Should mult be made ? Critique, comments are appreciated.


Rationale can also be found here(same):

https://github.com/cljctools/mult/blob/master/docs/design.md#rationale

Same post can be found on a separate mailing list:

https://groups.google.com/g/cljctools/c/Qyz0qCxVC-Y

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first post.
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