Re: could clojure be androids joker card
hi aaron, what i initially thought of, is an alternate technologie-stack. that's far from being a realistic option today and may not be realistic at all: (i guess this has a timeframe of 4-8 years) leave java completely out. base clojure on android's/linux's process- and memory-model and low level system-services. let the clojure-compiler produce performance-optimized bytecode (dalvik executables/dex-files). preconditions: - implementing clojure in clojure (- java-independant clojure) - implement higher level android services and apis (java-packages android.*) in clojure (- java-independant android) realistic or not ... the implementation of clojure in clojure offers fascinating possibilities ... and it's a task that is worked on - today. have a successful time -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
Andriod is not Clojure's joker card, Clojure is Andriod's joker card. --DragonCat -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
One problem I've heard with creating Android apps in languages such as Clojure or Scala is the dependencies (in Clojure's case, probably clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar) that are brought in increase the size of the app. Those dependencies may be very small when deployed as a server app or on a desktop application, but on my poor little G1, any app more than a few megs risks generating a Your phone is low on memory error. I haven't yet gotten very far in my Android book, so excuse the ignorance of this question, but does Android have an easy way to have shared dependencies, or does each app that uses Clojure need to package those libraries separately? On Nov 7, 3:19 am, faenvie fanny.aen...@gmx.de wrote: hi clojure-commmunity, when learning 2 new things at a time, one is always temped to combine them and have some unrealistic fantasies. i am just reading through the meap of ??? so it's not a surprise, that i think about a combination of clojure and android. according to other discussions in the mailinglist, clojure on android is possible and someone has also managed to run the combination. i also noticed, that android-support is mentioned in the clojure 'roadmap' at jira. in particular i though of, how clojure could help android to overcome its java-dependency on the long run ... - clojure in clojure - clojure on base of the android system-level-abstractions. also leveraging the power of FP for embedded systems programming seams like something that could pay back. what do you think ? could clojure be androids joker card ? and vice versa ? ;-) have a successful day -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
There are several forces at play here that work against clojure on android being a huge force. The size of hello world in clojure is currently 4.21MB. This is roughly 4 for clojure and .21 for the app. This is compared to the same app in java at .2MB. Bring in c.c and you have a whole lot more. With the separated c.c builds it gets better, but that's still a lot. Moving on to more important matters is the performance issues. The dalvik vm is not very efficient when it comes to GC or reflection. The functional programming nature generates much more garbage than your standard java app which causes some performance issues. This hits the hardest at boot time in an android application. AOT compilation helps here but not in all cases. The idea of having a REPL on the phone is nice and can be done, but it is quite slow. I'm sure there are ways to make it a bit faster (2.2 has JIT support for example) but it will most likely be severely limited for some time. I have been playing with several different ways to improve Clojure's performance on android and have made some improvements, but am a ways off from releasing anything. This is in no way meant to steer you away from trying out Clojure on android, but I would suggest learning the platforms ins and outs, and then move in to trying out Clojure on it. If you have specific questions please feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer them for you. Cheers, Aaron hi clojure-commmunity, when learning 2 new things at a time, one is always temped to combine them and have some unrealistic fantasies. i am just reading through the meap of ??? so it's not a surprise, that i think about a combination of clojure and android. according to other discussions in the mailinglist, clojure on android is possible and someone has also managed to run the combination. i also noticed, that android-support is mentioned in the clojure 'roadmap' at jira. in particular i though of, how clojure could help android to overcome its java-dependency on the long run ... - clojure in clojure - clojure on base of the android system-level-abstractions. also leveraging the power of FP for embedded systems programming seams like something that could pay back. what do you think ? could clojure be androids joker card ? and vice versa ? ;-) have a successful day -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
could clojure be androids joker card
hi clojure-commmunity, when learning 2 new things at a time, one is always temped to combine them and have some unrealistic fantasies. i am just reading through the meap of ??? so it's not a surprise, that i think about a combination of clojure and android. according to other discussions in the mailinglist, clojure on android is possible and someone has also managed to run the combination. i also noticed, that android-support is mentioned in the clojure 'roadmap' at jira. in particular i though of, how clojure could help android to overcome its java-dependency on the long run ... - clojure in clojure - clojure on base of the android system-level-abstractions. also leveraging the power of FP for embedded systems programming seams like something that could pay back. what do you think ? could clojure be androids joker card ? and vice versa ? ;-) have a successful day -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
I am just reading through the meap of ??? ??? = http://www.manning.com/ableson2/ sorry -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
This is a subject that has interested me for a while now. While Clojure doesn't seem to work with android very well, another lisp based language called the kawa framework, that uses JVM just like Clojure, seems to work very well with android. The Kawa framework is used by the android AppInventor to compile AppInventor's Blocks language into dalvik bytecode. You can see how Kawa works on Android at here. http://per.bothner.com/blog/2010/AndroidHelloScheme/ I would really like to see Clojure work on android the same way. On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 1:49 PM, faenvie fanny.aen...@gmx.de wrote: hi clojure-commmunity, when learning 2 new things at a time, one is always temped to combine them and have some unrealistic fantasies. i am just reading through the meap of ??? so it's not a surprise, that i think about a combination of clojure and android. according to other discussions in the mailinglist, clojure on android is possible and someone has also managed to run the combination. i also noticed, that android-support is mentioned in the clojure 'roadmap' at jira. in particular i though of, how clojure could help android to overcome its java-dependency on the long run ... - clojure in clojure - clojure on base of the android system-level-abstractions. also leveraging the power of FP for embedded systems programming seams like something that could pay back. what do you think ? could clojure be androids joker card ? and vice versa ? ;-) have a successful day -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- http://hi.im/santosh -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
Hopefully enough, Android support has a dedicated page on clojure dev's wiki : http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Android+Support ! 2010/11/7 Santosh Rajan santra...@gmail.com: This is a subject that has interested me for a while now. While Clojure doesn't seem to work with android very well, another lisp based language called the kawa framework, that uses JVM just like Clojure, seems to work very well with android. The Kawa framework is used by the android AppInventor to compile AppInventor's Blocks language into dalvik bytecode. You can see how Kawa works on Android at here. http://per.bothner.com/blog/2010/AndroidHelloScheme/ I would really like to see Clojure work on android the same way. On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 1:49 PM, faenvie fanny.aen...@gmx.de wrote: hi clojure-commmunity, when learning 2 new things at a time, one is always temped to combine them and have some unrealistic fantasies. i am just reading through the meap of ??? so it's not a surprise, that i think about a combination of clojure and android. according to other discussions in the mailinglist, clojure on android is possible and someone has also managed to run the combination. i also noticed, that android-support is mentioned in the clojure 'roadmap' at jira. in particular i though of, how clojure could help android to overcome its java-dependency on the long run ... - clojure in clojure - clojure on base of the android system-level-abstractions. also leveraging the power of FP for embedded systems programming seams like something that could pay back. what do you think ? could clojure be androids joker card ? and vice versa ? ;-) have a successful day -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- http://hi.im/santosh -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Santosh Rajan santra...@gmail.com wrote: I would really like to see Clojure work on android the same way. Hi, I can hardly explain it myself and that's why I'm asking others whenever I stumble upon such a statement. Bear with my ignorance. I'm simply curious. Why is that important to you? I believe you can use Clojure as a Java library right now without much worries, can't you? Is merely Clojure's syntax so appealing? Jacek -- Jacek Laskowski Notatnik Projektanta Java EE - http://jaceklaskowski.pl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
I find Clojure syntax very appealing. Also Clojure is the first Lisp I have learnt. I give credit to Clojure to bringing Lisp back into the mainstream in the last couple of years. It has brought many people like me, (non Lisp, non Java) programmers like me into the fold. Having said that. Apps on smaller hardware footprints are booming now. Particularly Android. Also Lisp like Languages are a natural, if you wan't to further build on a higher level language. (Like the App Inventor Blocks language does. It has a set of Scheme macro's that map blocks to scheme code). Taking both of the above into account, I would really like to see Clojure there. I hope what I have said makes sense. On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Jacek Laskowski ja...@laskowski.net.pl wrote: On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Santosh Rajan santra...@gmail.com wrote: I would really like to see Clojure work on android the same way. Hi, I can hardly explain it myself and that's why I'm asking others whenever I stumble upon such a statement. Bear with my ignorance. I'm simply curious. Why is that important to you? I believe you can use Clojure as a Java library right now without much worries, can't you? Is merely Clojure's syntax so appealing? Jacek -- Jacek Laskowski Notatnik Projektanta Java EE - http://jaceklaskowski.pl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- http://hi.im/santosh -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 12:42:09 +0100 Jacek Laskowski ja...@laskowski.net.pl wrote: On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Santosh Rajan santra...@gmail.com wrote: I would really like to see Clojure work on android the same way. Hi, I can hardly explain it myself and that's why I'm asking others whenever I stumble upon such a statement. Bear with my ignorance. I'm simply curious. Why is that important to you? I believe you can use Clojure as a Java library right now without much worries, can't you? Is merely Clojure's syntax so appealing? No, its more having a REPL available, so that you can: 1) It makes a nice programmable calculator for mobile devices. 2) I can test out an idea when I have it, rather than having to make a note of it and test it when I'm back at my desk. 3) I can answer mail asking questions about clojure and provided checked answers while on the go, rather than wait until I'm back at my desk. 4) I can do development on all aspects of a clojure application that's going to run on android on the device. And of course: 5) Java is that unappealing. Admittedly, there are other good solutions for some of these, and others you'd only want to do under extreme conditions - or with an android tablet - but still, they do add up. mike -- Mike Meyer m...@mired.org http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: could clojure be androids joker card
You might find http://www.slideshare.net/smartrevolution/using-clojure-nosql-databases-and-functionalstyle-javascript-to-write-gextgeneration-html5-apps an interesting alternate approach. As I see it a language is a tool, and I'm still not convinced that Clojure is the right tool for UI. On Nov 7, 12:19 am, faenvie fanny.aen...@gmx.de wrote: hi clojure-commmunity, when learning 2 new things at a time, one is always temped to combine them and have some unrealistic fantasies. i am just reading through the meap of ??? so it's not a surprise, that i think about a combination of clojure and android. according to other discussions in the mailinglist, clojure on android is possible and someone has also managed to run the combination. i also noticed, that android-support is mentioned in the clojure 'roadmap' at jira. in particular i though of, how clojure could help android to overcome its java-dependency on the long run ... - clojure in clojure - clojure on base of the android system-level-abstractions. also leveraging the power of FP for embedded systems programming seams like something that could pay back. what do you think ? could clojure be androids joker card ? and vice versa ? ;-) have a successful day -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
