Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I was 
looking for:

* The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review. The 
minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based on 
performance.
* The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly.  Its 
principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the basis of the boat's 
performance.
* At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club handicapper 
provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of races based on 
results.
* In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently from 
their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.

I believe that such regular reviews and adjustments based on observed 
performance are part of the intent of PHRF.  For example the class rules 
(https://www.phrfsocal.org/wp-content/uploads/Rules/lr.pdf 
) of PHRF of 
Southern California, which started PHRF (see 
https://www.phrfsocal.org/phrf-history/ 
 and 
https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/ 
), provide for up to 
three rating reviews per year for a boat, in section 4 of the class rules.

I asked about this because I suspect not every Regional Sailing Association (to 
use the US Sailing term) conducts regular reviews and adjustments based on 
observed performance.  And in my opinion that is a problem.  My RSA, the 
Sailing Association of Intermountain Lakes (http://rmsail.org, in US Sailing’s 
Area F), appointed a new PHRF Chairperson this year, who reviewed ratings as 
annual PHRF certificates were renewed, but any adjustments made were not based 
on observed performance.  Rather they were made by looking at “the book” 
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps 
/) and 
averaging ratings for a boat from other fleets with “similar" conditions (Area 
F inland lakes).  As a result two boats in my club’s PHRF fleet, which do not 
win regularly, were rated faster - while the boats that win most often kept 
their same ratings.  While I understand the logic for the methodology, it 
doesn't seem aligned with the intent of PHRF, and seems somewhat arbitrary.

As noted in this thread, there is a range of ratings across RSAs for the same 
boat.  In the case of the C 30 MK I, it’s an 18-second range from 168-186.   
There is no information in “the book” about predominant conditions to justify 
different ratings in the range.  Nor is it possible to tell what a given RSA’s 
rating about a boat assumes, e.g. folding propeller or not.  So there seems to 
be a bit of arbitrariness in the system.

I’m lobbying in my club and RSA for regular reviews and adjustments based on 
observed performance.  So I’m glad to find precedent for that amongst the 
organizations in which members of this list race.

Best Regards,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO


> On Dec 15, 2019, at 6:18 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> The clubs in PHRF-LO submit race results at the end of the season.
> All the data gets entered and we get race analysis back. Some filtering
> goes on to drop nights with wind issues, boats that raced less than
> three times, races with less than three boats.
> 
> Classes that consistently perform ( calculated ASP ) differently from
> their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Brown
> Windburn
> C 30-1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Randy Stafford  
> To:  
> Sent: 12/12/2019 5:36 PM 
> Subject: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 
> 
> Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often 
> do your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?  
> 
> The introduction in “the book” 
> (https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/ 
> ) says 
> under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
> by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
> boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
> estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
> https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf 
>  
> shows that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and 
> adjust based on local experience. 
> 
> So, how many of y’all do that?
> 
> Cheers,
> Randy
> 

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

 I have a 30-1 shoal draft.  It's only 6-9in shorter, depending on where one 
gets the info.  It's also hundres of pounds heavier.  C did that to keep the 
righting moment the same I believe.RonWild CheriC 30-1STL

On Sunday, December 15, 2019, 11:32:19 AM CST, Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:  
 
 
I am pretty sure there was a shoal draft version of the 30-1. There is a 
drawing in the back of my owner’s manual which shows such a boat – dotted line 
about six inches above the profile of the keel. No other mentions in the manual 
(which covers most of the early boats and is dated from 1976 to 1979, depending 
on the page.

Gary Nylander

#593

  

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Rick Brass via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 11:46 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

  

According to the US Sailing PHRF Rating Book, the base for the 30-1 is 174. 
That number is generally established as a “yardstick” based on information 
supplied by the manufacturer when the boat is first manufactured.

  

The actual base ratings across the various PHRF fleets range from a low of 168 
to a high of 186 (based on the “dramatic differences in local conditions” as 
you put it. Individual boat ratings will depend on modifications, sails, and 
all the other variables that PHRF considers.

  

NC-PHRF doesn’t have any 30’s in the fleet. Chessie PHRF shows 3: Anchovy and 
Gary’s boat at 174, and a shoal draft 30 (could this really be a 30-2?) rated 
at 180.

  

  

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

  

  

  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hazzard 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2019 7:34 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Fred Hazzard 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

  

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 

  

Fred Hazzard 

S/V Fury 

C 44

Portland Or 

  
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Stus-List PHRF Reviews

[Robert Gallagher via CnC-List]

There was a shoal draft 30-1.  I believe it was 4.1 ft.  I have seen one on
the hard. It also
had an offset prop shaft.

Rob G
C36MKII
Ex C 30 MKI & MKII owner
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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Also the 30-1 is far from a one design.


The earlier models tended to be heavier, possibly due to things
like the water tanks being made out of fiberglass versus the
later models having plastic tanks. The rudder design changed
and the boom was raised 1'. I have pictures of 30-1s side by
side with obvious differences in the spreader height.


At the club haul out the crane measures the boat weights. While
not striped out but somewhat equally emptied the 30-1s can be
as much as 500 lbs difference in weight to each other.

Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1





 From:   Fred Hazzard  
 To:
 Sent:   12/13/2019 7:33 PM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 



I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 


Fred Hazzard 
S/V Fury 
C 44
Portland Or 



On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 7:08 AM Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:



I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in performance. 
PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around the country, the 
30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull numbers over 600 seem to 
have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and is 174 also). There may be 
exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat (assuming it has not been 
modified in major ways) would prompt a review. I’m not sure what one would do 
to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you cut a bunch of weight off the keel 
– and that would decrease it’s performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake 
rendezvous a couple months ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very 
similar to my 593, only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and 
some cabinet doors. 



 
Gary Nylander ___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The clubs in PHRF-LO submit race results at the end of the season.
All the data gets entered and we get race analysis back. Some filtering
goes on to drop nights with wind issues, boats that raced less than
three times, races with less than three boats.


Classes that consistently perform ( calculated ASP ) differently from
their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.




Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1





 From:   Randy Stafford  
 To:
 Sent:   12/12/2019 5:36 PM 
 Subject:   Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 


Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often do 
your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?  


The introduction in “the book” 
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/) says 
under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows 
that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust based 
on local experience. 


So, how many of y’all do that?


Cheers,
Randy



On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Dear Sir,


RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7


I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With over 
70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and only 
right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I expect 
the board will want to question you very carefully about the additional changes 
to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.  I have suggested that 
the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF number, but the monetary 
fine should reflect the price of the current boat you have chosen to race.  
Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat, you would be disinclined to 
perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which is depressing both the local 
fleet and the attendance of future sailors to the sport.  You should hear from 
the PHRF board by the end of the month.


Regretfully, Lee   

 
Yea, cold and wet in Seattle 

 


On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Listers-


When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the 
conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based on 
this old post: 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html.


Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group where a 
guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping for 
clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore Yachts.  
Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So the HIN 
format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972 apparently didn’t 
include any digits indicating the month in which the hull was laid up.


I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.


Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says simply 
“30-1 1971N”.
Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he says, but hasn’t 
posted his HIN yet.
Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 30 MK I hull #8 and said it was made 
in 1971.
Sean Dillon in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a 1971 
boat.
Ed Levert on this list owned hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat.
The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, and 30009472 have also been heard from 
here or in the Facebook group.
Steve Guiney in the Facebook group owns hull #123 and his HIN is CCY301231172 
(CCY was later used by the Rhode Island factory but it didn’t open until 
February 1976)


It seems clear that C changed 30 MK I HIN formats at least twice over the 
production run.  And I shall change my email signature according to what I’ve 
learnt.


Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[james via CnC-List]

Yes there definitely was a shoal draft version of the 30-1 with a draft 
of 4'3". My family had a 1971 shoal draft 30-1 that we purchased at the 
Annapolis Boat Show. We raced it for many years on the Pamlico River 
with a PHRF rating of 180. We won a lot of silver and had our rating 
protested several times (but it was never adjusted). I'm pretty sure 
that we never failed to win any race that had winds of 15+ Knots of 
wind. Interesting side note, my father was part of the group that 
brought PHRF to North Carolina and started NC-PHRF.


James Taylor

Delaney, C 38-2

Oriental, NC


On 12/15/2019 12:31 PM, Gary Nylander via CnC-List wrote:


I am pretty sure there was a shoal draft version of the 30-1. There is 
a drawing in the back of my owner’s manual which shows such a boat – 
dotted line about six inches above the profile of the keel. No other 
mentions in the manual (which covers most of the early boats and is 
dated from 1976 to 1979, depending on the page.


Gary Nylander

#593

*From:*CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Rick 
Brass via CnC-List

*Sent:* Sunday, December 15, 2019 11:46 AM
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
*Cc:* Rick Brass 
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

According to the US Sailing PHRF Rating Book, the base for the 30-1 is 
174. That number is generally established as a “yardstick” based on 
information supplied by the manufacturer when the boat is first 
manufactured.


The actual base ratings across the various PHRF fleets range from a 
low of 168 to a high of 186 (based on the “dramatic differences in 
local conditions” as you put it. Individual boat ratings will depend 
on modifications, sails, and all the other variables that PHRF considers.


NC-PHRF doesn’t have any 30’s in the fleet. Chessie PHRF shows 3: 
Anchovy and Gary’s boat at 174, and a shoal draft 30 (could this 
really be a 30-2?) rated at 180.


Rick Brass

Washington, NC

*From:*CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of 
*Fred Hazzard via CnC-List

*Sent:* Friday, December 13, 2019 7:34 PM
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
*Cc:* Fred Hazzard mailto:fshazz...@gmail.com>>
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego 
for example.


Fred Hazzard

S/V Fury

C 44

Portland Or


___

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Re: Stus-List Winter Cover Measurements for C 30-2

[Donald Kern via CnC-List]

Peter,
per se, I do not use a winter cover.  However, I did have the topside of 
the boat newly shrink wrapped this fall.  The is the second shrink wrap 
cover I have done.  The first shrink wrap cover was 10 years old and had 
gotten a little tired and duct tape patched.  For four years the boat 
was out of the water sitting in the yard with this cover in place.  The 
other years it was off from mid May to early October and stored in the 
overhead of my garage. It is supported by a 4" pvc pipe mounted in the 
mast step extending some 3 ft above the cabin top.  Spinnaker pole 
mounted forward and light galvanized fence pipe to a foot above the aft 
pulpit with poly strapping going across the center to the stanchions to 
handle snow load.


Don Kern
Fireball  C 35 Mk2
Bristol, RI


On 12/15/2019 12:00 PM, kelly petew via CnC-List wrote:


Hey fellow C listers,

Does anyone use a winter cover on their boat?  If so, would you have 
its measurements handy to share?


Thanks!

Pete W.

1991 C

Siren Song

Deltaville, Va.


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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

I am pretty sure there was a shoal draft version of the 30-1. There is a 
drawing in the back of my owner’s manual which shows such a boat – dotted line 
about six inches above the profile of the keel. No other mentions in the manual 
(which covers most of the early boats and is dated from 1976 to 1979, depending 
on the page.

Gary Nylander

#593

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Rick Brass via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 11:46 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

 

According to the US Sailing PHRF Rating Book, the base for the 30-1 is 174. 
That number is generally established as a “yardstick” based on information 
supplied by the manufacturer when the boat is first manufactured.

 

The actual base ratings across the various PHRF fleets range from a low of 168 
to a high of 186 (based on the “dramatic differences in local conditions” as 
you put it. Individual boat ratings will depend on modifications, sails, and 
all the other variables that PHRF considers.

 

NC-PHRF doesn’t have any 30’s in the fleet. Chessie PHRF shows 3: Anchovy and 
Gary’s boat at 174, and a shoal draft 30 (could this really be a 30-2?) rated 
at 180.

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hazzard 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2019 7:34 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com  
Cc: Fred Hazzard mailto:fshazz...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

 

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 

 

Fred Hazzard 

S/V Fury 

C 44

Portland Or 

 

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Stus-List Winter Cover Measurements for C 30-2

[kelly petew via CnC-List]

Hey fellow C listers,
Does anyone use a winter cover on their boat?  If so, would you have its 
measurements handy to share?

Thanks!

Pete W.
1991 C
Siren Song

Deltaville, Va.
___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

According to the US Sailing PHRF Rating Book, the base for the 30-1 is 174. 
That number is generally established as a “yardstick” based on information 
supplied by the manufacturer when the boat is first manufactured.

 

The actual base ratings across the various PHRF fleets range from a low of 168 
to a high of 186 (based on the “dramatic differences in local conditions” as 
you put it. Individual boat ratings will depend on modifications, sails, and 
all the other variables that PHRF considers.

 

NC-PHRF doesn’t have any 30’s in the fleet. Chessie PHRF shows 3: Anchovy and 
Gary’s boat at 174, and a shoal draft 30 (could this really be a 30-2?) rated 
at 180.

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hazzard 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2019 7:34 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Fred Hazzard 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

 

I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 

 

Fred Hazzard 

S/V Fury 

C 44

Portland Or 

 

___

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