Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Bob,

Maybe it's something you have to see to understand.  Please don't take this
as talking down to you, I'm simply trying to makes sure we are starting
from the same baseline.

VMG (velocity made good) or sometimes CS (course speed) is the speed of
approach to the next way point.  If you point directly at the way point
then boat speed and VMG will be matched.  If you were to point away from
the mark then boat speed and VMG would begin to differ.  The VMG is
calculated by the chartplotter performing vector geometry using cosign of
the angle between your layline and your course line multiplied by boat
speed.  As you move along your course line, the bearing to the mark will
become greater and greater.  This is the function by which boat speed can
increase or stay the same but VMG will decrease.

Assuming wind, wave, and current conditions are all equal on both tacks and
tactics are not a factor - after each gybe VMG should be maximized.  The
helm should work with the sail team to find the course and sail trim that
gets the best VMG.  Shortly after the gybe a baseline will be found and as
you move along the course you will be able watch the VMG start to lower due
to the increasing angle of bearing to the mark.  More than 45° bearing to
the mark and VMG will be less than half of current boat speed.  This is the
very latest point at which you would want to gybe.

Now that you are maximizing VMG, you can start throwing in the other
factors... Tactics probably being the most important followed by the
effects of wind, waves, and current.  It is on these downwind runs that
other boats can sneak up behind you and steal your wind.  Wind shadow can
project a distance of 8 times the height of the object.  The windex points
to the objects that are casting shadow so look behind you for boats where
the arrow is pointing.  You can try to block them from shadowing you by
coming upwind (away from the mark) slightly (reducing VMG)... Eventually
you or your competition is going to lose the fight and have to gybe.

As you approach the mark the rounding is going to have a favored side and
your foredeck is going to have a lot of work so make sure to give them room
to raise the head sail, douse the spin, drop the pole, stow the topping
lift, round the mark, come up to the wind, and possibly tack.  Reset for
the next spin run.

Make sense?

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD




On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, 12:25 Bob Mann via CnC-List 
wrote:

> I don't understand how either answer is telling me it's time to gybe.
>
> Bob
>
> On 10/06/2021 11:37 AM Shawn Wright via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
>
> I don't race, but do use VMG when trying to get our best time to
> destination, especially on longer days. This works well enough in many long
> channels and inlets with wind aligned with our course, but sometimes it's
> not aligned. In these instances I'll have to try this trick for fooling the
> VMG by giving it a waypoint at the far end of whatever channel we're
> navigating. Of course, I'll have to read the B manual, as their UI is not
> that intuitive, or things don't always work as you expect.
>
> --
> Shawn Wright
> shawngwri...@gmail.com
> S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
> https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto
>
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 8:30 AM Dennis C. via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> First, let's define some terms.
>
> VMG (wind based) - the component of your velocity DIRECTLY upwind or
> downwind.
>
> WCV - waypoint closure velocity.  The component of your velocity headed
> directly at your mark (assuming it's set in your GPS).  This is often shown
> on most GPS systems as VMG.
>
> Now, if you don't have an instrument system that calculates VMG, don't use
> GPS VMG (WCV).  The problem is that, as you approach the layline, WCV will
> tend to zero.  If you overstand and cross the layline, WCV will become
> negative.  While this is good information for when to tack or gybe, it's
> usually too late.
>
> Here's how to fake your GPS into giving you VMG (wind based).  Set a
> waypoint well past the windward mark.  Let's assume the race committee sets
> a good W/L course with the windward mark directly upwind of the start.
> Let's say the wind is from 000 and the windward mark is set at 000 for a 2
> mile leg.  Enter a waypoint in your GPS at 000 20 miles out.  By setting
> the waypoint so far out, WCV will approximate VMG.
> --
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 10:03 AM Bob Mann via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker.  I did it last weekend in a race and
> I believe I overstood the mark as we were sailing 110 AW before the gybe
> and 85 AW heading directly to the mark.
>
> How does one determine when to gybe?
>
> Bob
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --

Stus-List Re: Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2

[John Irvin via CnC-List]

Thanks for sharing your voyages, Captain.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 6, 2021, at 4:39 PM, Matthew via CnC-List  wrote:


Sad day.  If you left a manual or device on board, someday you may have to give 
them a “piece of the action.”

From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2021 4:33 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Edd Schillay 
Subject: Stus-List Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2

Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2
This was the final cruise of the Starship Enterprise (NCC-1701-B) under my 
command. This ship, and her history, will shortly become the care of another 
crew. To them and their posterity will we commit our future. They will continue 
the voyages we have begun, and journey to all the undiscovered countries, 
boldly going where no man, or no one, has gone before.

https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads/monthly_2021_05/262982986_01Scan10043.JPG.6fbb5975e3cbfdabb3489ace4df4267f.JPG


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL













Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Paul Fountain via CnC-List]

On one boat I was the union member, I finally put the helmsman on foredeck 
after one too many snap jibes ….. after that they were much more controlled, 
from the foredeck!



Paul

From: Graham Collins via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, October 6, 2021 5:56:01 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Graham Collins 
Subject: Stus-List Re: leeward layline


I've heard that the non-union members are known to hook the spin up wrong, so 
it is flying sideways (or what, 360/3 degrees offset if we want to get 
particular)

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C 35-III #11

On 2021-10-06 1:49 p.m., Jeff Nelson via CnC-List wrote:
Mike,
You know that all Helms and Tacticians expect the crew to be America's Cup 
experts.
I guess that's why the Foredeck Union came into being.
:-)

Cheers,
   Jeff Nelson
   Muir Caileag
   C 30 - 0549
   Armdale Yacht Club

On 2021-10-06 1:42 p.m., Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List wrote:

Hi Bob



If you are happy with your speed on current angle then gybe when true wind 
angle is the same on the opposite gybe.  Sure sounds simple but most of us gybe 
too late or too early.



Too early on a light wind day means that you will end up sailing deeper and 
slower than you intended or performing extra gybes.



Too late on a breezy day means that you will end up with wind more forward than 
you would prefer and perhaps have a bit of a sporty approach to the mark



And of course contrary to what most tacticians and drivers like to think gybing 
does involve sail handling and a potential for error.  This can be detrimental 
to boat speed since not all gybes are performed equally and some can in fact be 
very amusing to your competitors.  This fact is why there is a Foredeck Union



Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu


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  Virus-free. 
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Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Graham Collins via CnC-List]

I've heard that the non-union members are known to hook the spin up 
wrong, so it is flying sideways (or what, 360/3 degrees offset if we 
want to get particular)


Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C 35-III #11

On 2021-10-06 1:49 p.m., Jeff Nelson via CnC-List wrote:

Mike,
You know that all Helms and Tacticians expect the crew to be America's 
Cup experts.

I guess that's why the Foredeck Union came into being.
:-)

Cheers,
   Jeff Nelson
   Muir Caileag
   C 30 - 0549
   Armdale Yacht Club

On 2021-10-06 1:42 p.m., Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List wrote:


Hi Bob

If you are happy with your speed on current angle then gybe when true 
wind angle is the same on the opposite gybe. Sure sounds simple but 
most of us gybe too late or too early.


Too early on a light wind day means that you will end up sailing 
deeper and slower than you intended or performing extra gybes.


Too late on a breezy day means that you will end up with wind more 
forward than you would prefer and perhaps have a bit of a sporty 
approach to the mark


And of course contrary to what most tacticians and drivers like to 
think gybing does involve sail handling and a potential for error.  
This can be detrimental to boat speed since not all gybes are 
performed equally and some can in fact be very amusing to your 
competitors.  This fact is why there is a Foredeck Union


Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray   Thanks - Stu



 
	Virus-free. www.avast.com 
 



<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray   Thanks - StuThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2

[Joel Delamirande via CnC-List]

You sold your boat ? Congratulations
Sadly I missed this one
On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 4:33 PM Edd Schillay via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> *Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2*
> This was the final cruise of the Starship Enterprise (NCC-1701-B) under my
> command. This ship, and her history, will shortly become the care of
> another crew. To them and their posterity will we commit our future. They
> will continue the voyages we have begun, and journey to all the
> undiscovered countries, boldly going where no man, or no one, has gone
> before.
>
>
> https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads/monthly_2021_05/262982986_01Scan10043.JPG.6fbb5975e3cbfdabb3489ace4df4267f.JPG
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Edd
>
>
> Edd M. Schillay
> Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu

-- 
Joel Delamirande
*www.jdroofing.ca *
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Sad day.  If you left a manual or device on board, someday you may have to
give them a "piece of the action."

 

From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2021 4:33 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Edd Schillay 
Subject: Stus-List Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2

 

Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2

This was the final cruise of the Starship Enterprise (NCC-1701-B) under my
command. This ship, and her history, will shortly become the care of another
crew. To them and their posterity will we commit our future. They will
continue the voyages we have begun, and journey to all the undiscovered
countries, boldly going where no man, or no one, has gone before.

 

https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads/monthly_2021_05/262982986_01Scan10
043.JPG.6fbb5975e3cbfdabb3489ace4df4267f.JPG 

 


All the best,

 

Edd

 

 

Edd M. Schillay

Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL

 

 








 






 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2

[Andy Frame via CnC-List]

That's a lot of redshirts in that photo, Captain.

Six went out, two came back. :-D


On 10/6/2021 4:33 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List wrote:
> *Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2*
> This was the final cruise of the Starship Enterprise (NCC-1701-B) under
> my command. This ship, and her history, will shortly become the care of
> another crew. To them and their posterity will we commit our future.
> They will continue the voyages we have begun, and journey to all the
> undiscovered countries, boldly going where no man, or no one, has gone
> before.
>
> https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads/monthly_2021_05/262982986_01Scan10043.JPG.6fbb5975e3cbfdabb3489ace4df4267f.JPG
> 
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Edd
>
>
> Edd M. Schillay
> Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
s/v MaryMe
1975 C 24
Labelle, FL USA
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Captain's Log: Stardate 11276.2
This was the final cruise of the Starship Enterprise (NCC-1701-B) under my 
command. This ship, and her history, will shortly become the care of another 
crew. To them and their posterity will we commit our future. They will continue 
the voyages we have begun, and journey to all the undiscovered countries, 
boldly going where no man, or no one, has gone before.

https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads/monthly_2021_05/262982986_01Scan10043.JPG.6fbb5975e3cbfdabb3489ace4df4267f.JPG
 

 


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL












Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

I use a dousing sock for moments like these :)

Cheers,
Randy

> On Oct 6, 2021, at 12:22 PM, Matthew via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Samarai douse?
>  
> From: Randy Stafford via CnC-List  > 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2021 2:18 PM
> To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: Hoyt, Mike mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com>>; 
> Randy Stafford  >
> Subject: Stus-List Re: leeward layline
>  
> Yes, I had to file a report with the Foredeck Union on Sunday, as my helmsman 
> gybed my boat before I was ready to gybe the spin pole, and of course there 
> was an unfortunate wind shift at that exact moment too, and as a result we 
> had a general spinnaker shit show that required a complete douse to sort out, 
> while our main competitor with whom we’d been overlapped and in a tactical 
> duel sailed away from us.
>  
> Cheers,
> Randy
> 
> 
>> On Oct 6, 2021, at 10:42 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List > > wrote:
>>  
>> Hi Bob
>>  
>> If you are happy with your speed on current angle then gybe when true wind 
>> angle is the same on the opposite gybe.  Sure sounds simple but most of us 
>> gybe too late or too early.
>>  
>> Too early on a light wind day means that you will end up sailing deeper and 
>> slower than you intended or performing extra gybes.
>>  
>> Too late on a breezy day means that you will end up with wind more forward 
>> than you would prefer and perhaps have a bit of a sporty approach to the mark
>>  
>> And of course contrary to what most tacticians and drivers like to think 
>> gybing does involve sail handling and a potential for error.  This can be 
>> detrimental to boat speed since not all gybes are performed equally and some 
>> can in fact be very amusing to your competitors.  This fact is why there is 
>> a Foredeck Union
>>  
>> Mike Hoyt
>> Persistence
>> Halifax, NS
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
>> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>>   Thanks - Stu
> 
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>   Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Samarai douse?

 

From: Randy Stafford via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2021 2:18 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike ; Randy Stafford 

Subject: Stus-List Re: leeward layline

 

Yes, I had to file a report with the Foredeck Union on Sunday, as my helmsman 
gybed my boat before I was ready to gybe the spin pole, and of course there was 
an unfortunate wind shift at that exact moment too, and as a result we had a 
general spinnaker shit show that required a complete douse to sort out, while 
our main competitor with whom we’d been overlapped and in a tactical duel 
sailed away from us.

 

Cheers,

Randy





On Oct 6, 2021, at 10:42 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

Hi Bob

 

If you are happy with your speed on current angle then gybe when true wind 
angle is the same on the opposite gybe.  Sure sounds simple but most of us gybe 
too late or too early.

 

Too early on a light wind day means that you will end up sailing deeper and 
slower than you intended or performing extra gybes.

 

Too late on a breezy day means that you will end up with wind more forward than 
you would prefer and perhaps have a bit of a sporty approach to the mark

 

And of course contrary to what most tacticians and drivers like to think gybing 
does involve sail handling and a potential for error.  This can be detrimental 
to boat speed since not all gybes are performed equally and some can in fact be 
very amusing to your competitors.  This fact is why there is a Foredeck Union

 

Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution -- 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Yes, I had to file a report with the Foredeck Union on Sunday, as my helmsman 
gybed my boat before I was ready to gybe the spin pole, and of course there was 
an unfortunate wind shift at that exact moment too, and as a result we had a 
general spinnaker shit show that required a complete douse to sort out, while 
our main competitor with whom we’d been overlapped and in a tactical duel 
sailed away from us.

Cheers,
Randy

> On Oct 6, 2021, at 10:42 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob
>  
> If you are happy with your speed on current angle then gybe when true wind 
> angle is the same on the opposite gybe.  Sure sounds simple but most of us 
> gybe too late or too early.
>  
> Too early on a light wind day means that you will end up sailing deeper and 
> slower than you intended or performing extra gybes.
>  
> Too late on a breezy day means that you will end up with wind more forward 
> than you would prefer and perhaps have a bit of a sporty approach to the mark
>  
> And of course contrary to what most tacticians and drivers like to think 
> gybing does involve sail handling and a potential for error.  This can be 
> detrimental to boat speed since not all gybes are performed equally and some 
> can in fact be very amusing to your competitors.  This fact is why there is a 
> Foredeck Union
>  
> Mike Hoyt
> Persistence
> Halifax, NS
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
>   Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Don Kern via CnC-List]

Bob

Your getting good answers, however you did not tell us your boat model 
our type of spinnaker you have (Symmetrical or Asymmetrical). Both will 
make a difference.  Ed advice of not sailing to the laylines but keeping 
to middle is best for the reasons he stated. Especially if your C was 
an IOR design built before 1980 and sail deep downwind.  Later boats 
will sail closer to reach angles for best VMG downwind.  Asyms can not 
be sailed deep downwind and are sailed closer to a reach.


Don Kern
/Fireball,/ C MK2
Bristol, RI



On 10/6/2021 11:17 AM, Jeff Nelson via CnC-List wrote:

Hmmm...Interesting question.

So, Ed's answer was pretty good, I'll add a few thoughts here:

AW isn't an ideal guide, True wind is what is needed so that you can 
keep the angle to true wind to be constant on

either Gybe, assuming you know what the best angle is.
If you can find polar's for your boat, they will give you an idea of 
ideal.
As Ed mentioned, VMG is your friend in determining what the best angle 
is (especially if no polars are available).
You can experiment in different wind speeds to find a reasonably good 
angle for windspeed and VMG.


Here's a good article to get you thinking:
http://www.oceansail.co.uk/Articles/VMGArticle.php

Hope this helps.
Jeff Nelson
Muir Caileag
C 30 549
Armdale Yacht Club

On 2021-10-06 12:02 p.m., Bob Mann via CnC-List wrote:
I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker.  I did it last weekend in a 
race and I believe I overstood the mark as we were sailing 110 AW 
before the gybe and 85 AW heading directly to the mark.

How does one determine when to gybe?
Bob

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray   Thanks - Stu



 
	Virus-free. www.avast.com 
 



<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Here's another way to think about it:

You are sailing 140 degrees off the wind, or 40 degrees form DDW.  Gybe
when the bearing to the mark will allow you to turn 80 degrees.  (I can't
tell you how many times I get impatient and gybe too soon because I don't
follow this method)

Joel

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 12:50 PM Jeff Nelson via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Mike,
> You know that all Helms and Tacticians expect the crew to be America's Cup
> experts.
> I guess that's why the Foredeck Union came into being.
> :-)
>
> Cheers,
>Jeff Nelson
>Muir Caileag
>C 30 - 0549
>Armdale Yacht Club
>
> On 2021-10-06 1:42 p.m., Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List wrote:
>
> Hi Bob
>
>
>
> If you are happy with your speed on current angle then gybe when true wind
> angle is the same on the opposite gybe.  Sure sounds simple but most of us
> gybe too late or too early.
>
>
>
> Too early on a light wind day means that you will end up sailing deeper
> and slower than you intended or performing extra gybes.
>
>
>
> Too late on a breezy day means that you will end up with wind more forward
> than you would prefer and perhaps have a bit of a sporty approach to the
> mark
>
>
>
> And of course contrary to what most tacticians and drivers like to think
> gybing does involve sail handling and a potential for error.  This can be
> detrimental to boat speed since not all gybes are performed equally and
> some can in fact be very amusing to your competitors.  This fact is why
> there is a Foredeck Union
>
>
>
> Mike Hoyt
>
> Persistence
>
> Halifax, NS
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
>
>
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> 
> <#m_2575554625515396366_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu



-- 
Joel
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Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Jeff Nelson via CnC-List]

Mike,
You know that all Helms and Tacticians expect the crew to be America's 
Cup experts.

I guess that's why the Foredeck Union came into being.
:-)

Cheers,
   Jeff Nelson
   Muir Caileag
   C 30 - 0549
   Armdale Yacht Club

On 2021-10-06 1:42 p.m., Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List wrote:


Hi Bob

If you are happy with your speed on current angle then gybe when true 
wind angle is the same on the opposite gybe.  Sure sounds simple but 
most of us gybe too late or too early.


Too early on a light wind day means that you will end up sailing 
deeper and slower than you intended or performing extra gybes.


Too late on a breezy day means that you will end up with wind more 
forward than you would prefer and perhaps have a bit of a sporty 
approach to the mark


And of course contrary to what most tacticians and drivers like to 
think gybing does involve sail handling and a potential for error.  
This can be detrimental to boat speed since not all gybes are 
performed equally and some can in fact be very amusing to your 
competitors.  This fact is why there is a Foredeck Union


Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray   Thanks - Stu



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Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Hi Bob

If you are happy with your speed on current angle then gybe when true wind 
angle is the same on the opposite gybe.  Sure sounds simple but most of us gybe 
too late or too early.

Too early on a light wind day means that you will end up sailing deeper and 
slower than you intended or performing extra gybes.

Too late on a breezy day means that you will end up with wind more forward than 
you would prefer and perhaps have a bit of a sporty approach to the mark

And of course contrary to what most tacticians and drivers like to think gybing 
does involve sail handling and a potential for error.  This can be detrimental 
to boat speed since not all gybes are performed equally and some can in fact be 
very amusing to your competitors.  This fact is why there is a Foredeck Union

Mike Hoyt
Persistence
Halifax, NS
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Jeff Nelson via CnC-List]

If you want something more simplistic, you can try this:
Windward - Keep the mark between your bow and shrouds.
Leeward - Keep the mark between your bow and half the distance to the 
shrouds.


It's far from perfect, but it is simple enough to keep you close, while 
you are trying to figure out all the VMG

stuff.

Cheers,
   Jeff Nelson
   Muir Caileag
   C 30 - 0549
   Armdale Yacht Club

On 2021-10-06 1:25 p.m., Bob Mann via CnC-List wrote:

I don't understand how either answer is telling me it's time to gybe.
Bob
On 10/06/2021 11:37 AM Shawn Wright via CnC-List 
 wrote:
I don't race, but do use VMG when trying to get our best time to 
destination, especially on longer days. This works well enough in 
many long channels and inlets with wind aligned with our course, but 
sometimes it's not aligned. In these instances I'll have to try this 
trick for fooling the VMG by giving it a waypoint at the far end of 
whatever channel we're navigating. Of course, I'll have to read the 
B manual, as their UI is not that intuitive, or things don't always 
work as you expect.


--
Shawn Wright
shawngwri...@gmail.com
S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 8:30 AM Dennis C. via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:


Bob,
First, let's define some terms.
VMG (wind based) - the component of your velocity DIRECTLY upwind
or downwind.
WCV - waypoint closure velocity.  The component of your velocity
headed directly at your mark (assuming it's set in your GPS). 
This is often shown on most GPS systems as VMG.
Now, if you don't have an instrument system that calculates VMG,
don't use GPS VMG (WCV).  The problem is that, as you approach
the layline, WCV will tend to zero.  If you overstand and cross
the layline, WCV will become negative.  While this is good
information for when to tack or gybe, it's usually too late.
Here's how to fake your GPS into giving you VMG (wind based). 
Set a waypoint well past the windward mark.  Let's assume the
race committee sets a good W/L course with the windward mark
directly upwind of the start.  Let's say the wind is from 000 and
the windward mark is set at 000 for a 2 mile leg.  Enter a
waypoint in your GPS at 000 20 miles out.  By setting the
waypoint so far out, WCV will approximate VMG.
-- 
Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 10:03 AM Bob Mann via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker. I did it last weekend
in a race and I believe I overstood the mark as we were
sailing 110 AW before the gybe and 85 AW heading directly to
the mark.
How does one determine when to gybe?
Bob
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list
to help with the costs involved.  If you want to show your
support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution --
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu 



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to
help with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support
to the list - use PayPal to send contribution --
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks - Stu 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help 
with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list 
- use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
Thanks - Stu 


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray   Thanks - Stu



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Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Shawn Wright via CnC-List]

I don't race (much anyway), so I just gybe when something gets in the way
(like a tug towing a barge usually), or it looks like I'll need to in order
to make the next destination.

I think what they are saying is you maximize your VMG under chute for the
conditions, and once you know the TWA for those conditions, you can then
calculate (or the plotter will show you) the reciprocal layline after a
gybe.
--
Shawn Wright
shawngwri...@gmail.com
S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto


On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 9:25 AM Bob Mann  wrote:

> I don't understand how either answer is telling me it's time to gybe.
>
> Bob
>
> On 10/06/2021 11:37 AM Shawn Wright via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
>
> I don't race, but do use VMG when trying to get our best time to
> destination, especially on longer days. This works well enough in many long
> channels and inlets with wind aligned with our course, but sometimes it's
> not aligned. In these instances I'll have to try this trick for fooling the
> VMG by giving it a waypoint at the far end of whatever channel we're
> navigating. Of course, I'll have to read the B manual, as their UI is not
> that intuitive, or things don't always work as you expect.
>
> --
> Shawn Wright
> shawngwri...@gmail.com
> S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
> https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto
>
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 8:30 AM Dennis C. via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> First, let's define some terms.
>
> VMG (wind based) - the component of your velocity DIRECTLY upwind or
> downwind.
>
> WCV - waypoint closure velocity.  The component of your velocity headed
> directly at your mark (assuming it's set in your GPS).  This is often shown
> on most GPS systems as VMG.
>
> Now, if you don't have an instrument system that calculates VMG, don't use
> GPS VMG (WCV).  The problem is that, as you approach the layline, WCV will
> tend to zero.  If you overstand and cross the layline, WCV will become
> negative.  While this is good information for when to tack or gybe, it's
> usually too late.
>
> Here's how to fake your GPS into giving you VMG (wind based).  Set a
> waypoint well past the windward mark.  Let's assume the race committee sets
> a good W/L course with the windward mark directly upwind of the start.
> Let's say the wind is from 000 and the windward mark is set at 000 for a 2
> mile leg.  Enter a waypoint in your GPS at 000 20 miles out.  By setting
> the waypoint so far out, WCV will approximate VMG.
> --
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 10:03 AM Bob Mann via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker.  I did it last weekend in a race and
> I believe I overstood the mark as we were sailing 110 AW before the gybe
> and 85 AW heading directly to the mark.
>
> How does one determine when to gybe?
>
> Bob
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks -
> Stu
>
>
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Bob Mann via CnC-List]

I don't understand how either answer is telling me it's time to gybe.

Bob

> On 10/06/2021 11:37 AM Shawn Wright via CnC-List  
> wrote:
>  
>  
> I don't race, but do use VMG when trying to get our best time to 
> destination, especially on longer days. This works well enough in many long 
> channels and inlets with wind aligned with our course, but sometimes it's not 
> aligned. In these instances I'll have to try this trick for fooling the VMG 
> by giving it a waypoint at the far end of whatever channel we're navigating. 
> Of course, I'll have to read the B manual, as their UI is not that 
> intuitive, or things don't always work as you expect.
> 
> --
> Shawn Wright
> shawngwri...@gmail.com mailto:shawngwri...@gmail.com
> S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
> https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto
> 
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 8:30 AM Dennis C. via CnC-List < 
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote:
> 
> > > Bob,
> >  
> > First, let's define some terms.
> >  
> > VMG (wind based) - the component of your velocity DIRECTLY upwind 
> > or downwind.
> >  
> > WCV - waypoint closure velocity.  The component of your velocity 
> > headed directly at your mark (assuming it's set in your GPS).  This is 
> > often shown on most GPS systems as VMG.
> >  
> > Now, if you don't have an instrument system that calculates VMG, 
> > don't use GPS VMG (WCV).  The problem is that, as you approach the layline, 
> > WCV will tend to zero.  If you overstand and cross the layline, WCV will 
> > become negative.  While this is good information for when to tack or gybe, 
> > it's usually too late.
> >  
> > Here's how to fake your GPS into giving you VMG (wind based).  Set 
> > a waypoint well past the windward mark.  Let's assume the race committee 
> > sets a good W/L course with the windward mark directly upwind of the start. 
> >  Let's say the wind is from 000 and the windward mark is set at 000 for a 2 
> > mile leg.  Enter a waypoint in your GPS at 000 20 miles out.  By setting 
> > the waypoint so far out, WCV will approximate VMG.
> > --
> > Dennis C.
> > Touche' 35-1 #83
> > Mandeville, LA
> > 
> > On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 10:03 AM Bob Mann via CnC-List < 
> > cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote:
> > 
> > > > > I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker.  I did 
> > it last weekend in a race and I believe I overstood the mark as we were 
> > sailing 110 AW before the gybe and 85 AW heading directly to the mark.
> > >  
> > > How does one determine when to gybe?
> > >  
> > > Bob
> > > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list 
> > > to help with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the 
> > > list - use PayPal to send contribution --
> > > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
> > > 
> > > > > 
> >  
> > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to 
> > help with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list 
> > - use PayPal to send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  
> > Thanks - Stu
> > 
> > > Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to 
> > help with the costs involved. If you want to show your support to the list 
> > - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks 
> > - Stu
> 
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Shawn Wright via CnC-List]

I don't race, but do use VMG when trying to get our best time to
destination, especially on longer days. This works well enough in many long
channels and inlets with wind aligned with our course, but sometimes it's
not aligned. In these instances I'll have to try this trick for fooling the
VMG by giving it a waypoint at the far end of whatever channel we're
navigating. Of course, I'll have to read the B manual, as their UI is not
that intuitive, or things don't always work as you expect.

--
Shawn Wright
shawngwri...@gmail.com
S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto


On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 8:30 AM Dennis C. via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Bob,
>
> First, let's define some terms.
>
> VMG (wind based) - the component of your velocity DIRECTLY upwind or
> downwind.
>
> WCV - waypoint closure velocity.  The component of your velocity headed
> directly at your mark (assuming it's set in your GPS).  This is often shown
> on most GPS systems as VMG.
>
> Now, if you don't have an instrument system that calculates VMG, don't use
> GPS VMG (WCV).  The problem is that, as you approach the layline, WCV will
> tend to zero.  If you overstand and cross the layline, WCV will become
> negative.  While this is good information for when to tack or gybe, it's
> usually too late.
>
> Here's how to fake your GPS into giving you VMG (wind based).  Set a
> waypoint well past the windward mark.  Let's assume the race committee sets
> a good W/L course with the windward mark directly upwind of the start.
> Let's say the wind is from 000 and the windward mark is set at 000 for a 2
> mile leg.  Enter a waypoint in your GPS at 000 20 miles out.  By setting
> the waypoint so far out, WCV will approximate VMG.
> --
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 10:03 AM Bob Mann via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker.  I did it last weekend in a race
>> and I believe I overstood the mark as we were sailing 110 AW before the
>> gybe and 85 AW heading directly to the mark.
>>
>> How does one determine when to gybe?
>>
>> Bob
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help
>> with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> Thanks - Stu
>
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Bob,

On Touche', we don't try to "bang the corners" or sail long to the
laylines.  Unlike sailing upwind, when flying a chute, you don't lose much
time during a gybe, assuming it's done proficiently.  Unless there's a
compelling reason to sail off to one side of the course to a layline,
you're usually better off gybing early and staying more inside the course.
By sailing way off to one side of the course, you risk losing your
competition if you get an unfavorable wind shift or if you overstand.
Also, your competition on the other side of the course may benefit from a
favorable shift and you'll be hurt more the farther to the side you are.

So, gybe early, stay well inside the course even if it means making an
extra gybe, or two.

And, as Edd said, and others will tell you, for our boats, VMG rules,
particularly downwind.  Maximize VMG and you'll do better.

First, let's define some terms.

VMG (wind based) - the component of your velocity DIRECTLY upwind or
downwind.

WCV - waypoint closure velocity.  The component of your velocity headed
directly at your mark (assuming it's set in your GPS).  This is often shown
on most GPS systems as VMG.

Now, if you don't have an instrument system that calculates VMG, don't use
GPS VMG (WCV).  The problem is that, as you approach the layline, WCV will
tend to zero.  If you overstand and cross the layline, WCV will become
negative.  While this is good information for when to tack or gybe, it's
usually too late.

Here's how to fake your GPS into giving you VMG (wind based).  Set a
waypoint well past the windward mark.  Let's assume the race committee sets
a good W/L course with the windward mark directly upwind of the start.
Let's say the wind is from 000 and the windward mark is set at 000 for a 2
mile leg.  Enter a waypoint in your GPS at 000 20 miles out.  By setting
the waypoint so far out, WCV will approximate VMG.
--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 10:03 AM Bob Mann via CnC-List 
wrote:

> I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker.  I did it last weekend in a race and
> I believe I overstood the mark as we were sailing 110 AW before the gybe
> and 85 AW heading directly to the mark.
>
> How does one determine when to gybe?
>
> Bob
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Jeff Nelson via CnC-List]

Hmmm...Interesting question.

So, Ed's answer was pretty good, I'll add a few thoughts here:

AW isn't an ideal guide, True wind is what is needed so that you can 
keep the angle to true wind to be constant on

either Gybe, assuming you know what the best angle is.
If you can find polar's for your boat, they will give you an idea of ideal.
As Ed mentioned, VMG is your friend in determining what the best angle 
is (especially if no polars are available).
You can experiment in different wind speeds to find a reasonably good 
angle for windspeed and VMG.


Here's a good article to get you thinking:
http://www.oceansail.co.uk/Articles/VMGArticle.php

Hope this helps.
Jeff Nelson
Muir Caileag
C 30 549
Armdale Yacht Club

On 2021-10-06 12:02 p.m., Bob Mann via CnC-List wrote:
I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker.  I did it last weekend in a race 
and I believe I overstood the mark as we were sailing 110 AW before 
the gybe and 85 AW heading directly to the mark.

How does one determine when to gybe?
Bob

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray   Thanks - Stu



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: leeward layline

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Bob,

There is really no way to answer that as much depends on how fast your boat 
sails in various win conditions. For example, in heavier breeze, you can sail 
almost directly downwind. In light air, you’ll want to sail higher to maximize 
your speed. The key is to keep an eye on your VMG as you race. And don’t be 
afraid to gybe multiple times. 

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Captain of the Starship Enterprise
C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B (for sale - NCC-1701-C is under contract)
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL












On Oct 6, 2021, at 11:02 AM, Bob Mann via CnC-List  
wrote:

I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker.  I did it last weekend in a race and I 
believe I overstood the mark as we were sailing 110 AW before the gybe and 85 
AW heading directly to the mark.
 
How does one determine when to gybe?
 
Bob
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List leeward layline

[Bob Mann via CnC-List]

I'm fairly new to flying a spinnaker.  I did it last weekend in a race and I 
believe I overstood the mark as we were sailing 110 AW before the gybe and 85 
AW heading directly to the mark.

How does one determine when to gybe?

BobThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu