Stus-List Re: Teak Handrail install

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Yes, I did that about 15 years ago, I used brass inserts epoxied into the 
outside rails.

Then later I did the sliding hatch cover by epoxying  SS Helicoils into the 
teak.

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 9:37 PM
To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER
Subject: Stus-List Teak Handrail install

 

Curious if anyone else tried this? 

 

My cabin top handrails are bolted to a matching set in the cabin ceiling.  They 
were throughbolted to each other using long bolts and nuts and the holes 
bunged.  I removed them to fix leaks many years ago and want to install them 
now so I can simply remove the screws from inside and remove both for a winter 
retouch.

 

They were originally through bolted together, the outside cabintop handrails 
had 3 1/2" long 10-24 screws and the cabin ceiling handrails had nuts holding 
it all together, both fasteners had teak bungs over the fasteners. 

 

My plan is to install threaded inserts into the outside handrails and use 
stainless 10-24 screws from the inside ones to hold them together.  My plan is 
to bung the outer handrails and leave out bungs on the inner set, so I can 
remove the the screws from inside, each winter.  I've already overbored and 
redrilled and countersunk the deck holes, and will use butyl tape for bedding.  
This should provide a way to remove the long screws from inside without 
removing the bungs on the outside handrails. 

 

https://www.mcmaster.com/90016A011/ 

 

Chuck Scheaffer Resolute 1989 C 34R Annapolis

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stus-List Re: Teak Handrail install

[James Hesketh via CnC-List]

CHARLES SCHEAFFER wrote:

Curious if anyone else tried this?
>
> >> snip <<
>
> My plan is to install threaded inserts into the outside handrails and use
> stainless 10-24 screws from the inside ones to hold them together.  My plan
> is to bung the outer handrails and leave out bungs on the inner set, so I
> can remove the the screws from inside, each winter.  I've already overbored
> and redrilled and countersunk the deck holes, and will use butyl tape for
> bedding.  This should provide a way to remove the long screws from inside
> without removing the bungs on the outside handrails.
>

Exactly what I did on my 26 -- worked well.

Jim Hesketh
C 26 Whisper
Miami, FL.

Stus-List Teak Handrail install

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

Curious if anyone else tried this?

My cabin top handrails are bolted to a matching set in the cabin ceiling.  They 
were throughbolted to each other using long bolts and nuts and the holes 
bunged.  I removed them to fix leaks many years ago and want to install them 
now so I can simply remove the screws from inside and remove both for a winter 
retouch.

They were originally through bolted together, the outside cabintop handrails 
had 3 1/2" long 10-24 screws and the cabin ceiling handrails had nuts holding 
it all together, both fasteners had teak bungs over the fasteners.

My plan is to install threaded inserts into the outside handrails and use 
stainless 10-24 screws from the inside ones to hold them together.  My plan is 
to bung the outer handrails and leave out bungs on the inner set, so I can 
remove the the screws from inside, each winter.  I've already overbored and 
redrilled and countersunk the deck holes, and will use butyl tape for bedding.  
This should provide a way to remove the long screws from inside without 
removing the bungs on the outside handrails.

https://www.mcmaster.com/90016A011/

Chuck Scheaffer Resolute 1989 C 34R Annapolis

Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

[JohnKelly Cuthbertson via CnC-List]

Hey !

:-)

JohnKelly Cuthbertson 

Motion Designs Limited
647 990 7752

> On Mar 19, 2022, at 8:38 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
>  Yes, I'd rather have Bruckman's opinion than Cuthbertson.  

Stus-List Re: Keel wobble

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

First point:  No offense to professional naval architects and surveyors, but 
I'd prefer a good boat builder look at the boat rather than  an engineer.  
Engineers are dreamers and they draw lines on paper.  Builders know how to 
build the engineer's dream and how a boat and keel should behave and how to fix 
it and what it will cost.  Yes, I'd rather have Bruckman's opinion than 
Cuthbertson.  The builder made all those engineer's dreams, all those "lines on 
paper", into boats and come to life.   

Second point:  Maybe the 25 repair costs more than she's worth.  Buy a better 
and bigger C:  The market is full of low priced C boats.  There are many 
seaworthy C on the market for sale.  Many 27's, 30's, 32's, 34's, 35's, etc. 
 One of my favorites is the 27 MkV which has a decent interior space and can be 
trailored home for winter storage.

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C 34R, Annapolis



> On 03/19/2022 6:22 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 1+ to recommendations for a serious evaluation of this issue by someone 
> who really knows boats—naval engineer, architect, whatever, unless of course 
> your sailing venue (current and future) is inshore in reasonable temperature 
> waters and perhaps within easy reach of rescue and that you require all on 
> board to wear PFDs all the time, etc.
> 
> Like most on this list, I am game to tackle most any boat repair, 
> upgrade, modification, etc. However, and often at significant cost, I pay a 
> professional to do jobs that are either beyond my wheelhouse or would require 
> so much prep and research that it would take forever(allowing for amateur 
> mistakes and redoing certain jobs when the first attempt goes ‘awry’ for one 
> reason or another).
> 
> For any repair or upgrade that might send the boat to the bottom if it 
> went awry (standing rigging replacement, hull deck joint refurbishment, 
> centerboard pennant replacement, stuffing box issues, cutlass bearing 
> replacement, etc.) I use a pro.
> 
> Of course with a ‘well found’ boat like C, there is seldom an issue 
> with a design flaw at the seaworthy level—in fact I am confident that my boat 
> design, whatever the details, resulted in a boat that is ‘smarter’ than her 
> skipper and she will only permit me to screw things up but so far before her 
> design saves my a— once again!
> 
> Most boat issues really aren’t ‘rocket science’ and are amenable to 
> reasonable DIY fixes. IMHO, this keel wobble issue probably requires a 
> nautical ‘rocket scientist’ (naval engineer, architect, etc. to have a look!
> 
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
> 1985 C XL/kcb
> Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS 
> https://apps.apple.com/us/app/aol-news-email-weather-video/id646100661
> 

Stus-List Keel wobble

[cenelson--- via CnC-List]

1+ to recommendations for a serious evaluation of this issue by someone who 
really knows boats—naval engineer, architect, whatever, unless of course your 
sailing venue (current and future) is inshore in reasonable temperature waters 
and perhaps within easy reach of rescue and that you require all on board to 
wear PFDs all the time, etc.
Like most on this list, I am game to tackle most any boat repair, upgrade, 
modification, etc. However, and often at significant cost, I pay a professional 
to do jobs that are either beyond my wheelhouse or would require so much prep 
and research that it would take forever(allowing for amateur mistakes and 
redoing certain jobs when the first attempt goes ‘awry’ for one reason or 
another).
For any repair or upgrade that might send the boat to the bottom if it went 
awry (standing rigging replacement, hull deck joint refurbishment, centerboard 
pennant replacement, stuffing box issues, cutlass bearing replacement, etc.) I 
use a pro.
Of course with a ‘well found’ boat like C, there is seldom an issue with a 
design flaw at the seaworthy level—in fact I am confident that my boat design, 
whatever the details, resulted in a boat that is ‘smarter’ than her skipper and 
she will only permit me to screw things up but so far before her design saves 
my a— once again!

Most boat issues really aren’t ‘rocket science’ and are amenable to reasonable 
DIY fixes. IMHO, this keel wobble issue probably requires a nautical ‘rocket 
scientist’ (naval engineer, architect, etc. to have a look!
Charlie NelsonWater Phantom1985 C XL/kcb
Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

Mathew and Stephen,

>>>On my 42, the leading edge of the keel where it meets the hull shows signs 
>>>of cracking.  I promptly had a nautical engineer look at.  He was an intern 
>>>or apprentice at C in the ‘70s, and based on his knowledge he concluded 
>>>that the location of the cracks is not a critical stress point.  The weight 
>>>of the keel is supported further aft, and the leading edge likely has fill 
>>>inside and may be flexing enough to develop the cracks.  He concluded it is 
>>>non-structural with no chance of catastrophic failure.  That’s the kind of 
>>>problem I’m willing to keep an eye on.

  Long story short: it can likely be repaired, but you need expert help.  This 
is not something to mess around with.  Good luck!

   Matt
   C 42 Custom
<<<

When we first bought Calypso (1998) we also discovered micro fractures just 
forward of the keel/mast step area.  The micro fractures were allowing some sea 
water seepage which is what caught our attention. As the boat was already in 
the yard with the mast out being painted it was relatively easy to fire up the 
grinders and explore the laminate in that area, both inside and outside the 
hull.

What we discovered was the original (1970) polyester “orange bog” that 
Bruckmann’s used to fill the hull to keel fairing feature had failed turning 
into a crumbly mass of bog bits and offering no reinforcement in that area.  
Also, there was a lack of additional support from bulkheads etc creating a 
“bend here” point just forward of the keel/mast step.  With an aggressively 
raced boat that likely had max backstay tension applied every race since 1971 
the micro fractures allowed water in that then went through freeze/thaw cycles 
when the 43 was in the east coast and great lakes regions.

We repaired the micro fractures with extra layers of epoxy and glass cloth 
inside and out but especially inside, then used a much stronger epoxy filler in 
the remaining void forward of the keel, then glassed over that with lots of 
epoxy/cloth. We also performed some failed bulkhead repairs where the water 
seeping had wicked up the plywood (in 1998/1999).

Fast forward to 2014 and we are beginning the now 8 year long Calypso 
restoration project.  We had also purchased all the C build drawings the 
Maritime Museum could identify as related to the 70’s era 43s. Fortunately this 
included several C 61 drawings.  Reading through the many pages I noticed the 
C 61 “Sorcery” had also experienced a certain amount of unexpected 
flexibility just forward of the keel/mast step.  The C Design Group 
determined extra reinforcement was needed and specified a SS “I” beam be 
fabricated and installed in “Sorcery”.  Further notes lead me to believe later 
61 and 43 hulls had this reinforcement included in the original builds.

As part of our 43 restoration project we fabricated 2 “I” beams from G10 that 
are aprox. 4” tall x 3” wide x 4’ long glassed in from next to the mast step 
forward to near where the babystay attaches to the hull. We also rebuilt all 
the bulkheads in the area as they provide significant fore/aft stiffness.  This 
is the area where rig forces are doing their best to bend the hull into a 
banana shape every time the boat is sailed hard.

Stephen, if you pursue DIY repairs consider using epoxy vs polyester resins.  
My experience indicates epoxy has a superior secondary bond strength.  If you 
decide to fabricate extra support members to spread the keel loads out over 
more structure, G10, while hard on cutting tools makes a structure that is 
impervious to rot and likely stronger than most materials available to DIY boat 
repair enthusiasts.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C 43
Seattle/Port Ludlow


Sent from Mail for Windows


From: Matthew via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 8:29:54 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Matthew 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?


Stephen:



My first boat was a Ranger 26 that had been modified (the cast 
iron keel was replaced with an IOR-style lead keel).  I discovered this after I 
bought the boat -- for a song, mind you, as it had been abandoned.  We tackled 
a variety of projects, including rebedding the keel bolts.  The bolt holes were 
visibly cracked and leaking a bit.  I can say with 100% certainty that the keel 
is now adequately supported, and the bolt holes will never leak again.  Based 
on my experience with the Ranger, my view is that nearly anything can be 
repaired on a fiberglass boat.  Given what you described, you can probably 
glass some stiffeners in place.



My concerns would be: 1) what caused the problem; and 2) fixing 
it correctly.  If you race the boat, you may also need to deal with 
weight/modification issues.  As to my first concern, a solid glass hull flexing 
enough to discern keel movement is obviously not normal.  Perhaps the boat ran 
hard aground?  As to my second 

Stus-List Re: Surveyor in the Baltimore/Annapolis Area?

[nausetbeach--- via CnC-List]

Trim it before you send it!

All was well on the list format - then Dennis' and Bill's emails come
through as attachments...  

Anybody else have this happen? 

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 4:52 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Surveyor in the Baltimore/Annapolis Area?

Trim it before you send it!

Stus-List Re: Surveyor in the Baltimore/Annapolis Area?

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Trim it before you send it!
There is a Robert Noyce in Annapolis, (410-703-5380) I saw a survey on a
boat he did for the seller, so that  survey looked pretty good, as in
nothing of any consequence. I think he's an older fellow.  I declined to use
him, because of this prior association. A potential buyer B/4 me used him,
but I didn't get to see that survey. I used Kevin White, (410-703-2165)
which someone on this list recommended. He did a decent job, missed a couple
things because it wasn't in the water, but he was pretty good on hull
tapping.

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie PA

 

From: Rick Brass via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 9:21 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rick Brass
Subject: Stus-List Surveyor in the Baltimore/Annapolis Area?

 

A client of mine recently lost their 42' Jefferson motor yacht in a fire.
They are boat shopping again.

 

They have an interest in a President 43 Sundeck that is in the Pasadena, MD
area. From the photos and listing it looks like it could be a decent boat
for their expectations. We will probably be making a day trip up there next
week to look at the boat.

 

Of course, at the cost of one of these puppies, if this progresses to offer
and acceptance, we will need to get a survey and sea trial done.

 

Can anyone recommend a good surveyor in the area? Someone knowledgeable
about turbo diesels (Lehmans in this case) and other systems typical of big
power boats.

 

I'd rather get a survey from someone recommended, rather than use one the
broker suggests. Or perhaps use the broler's surveyor if he is recommended
by someone on the list.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C 38 mk2 #47

la Belle Aurore  C 25 mk1 #225

Washington, NC

 

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Trim it before you send it!
A buddy of mine had nearly the same issue with a Tartan 33.  It had floors
(athwartships reinforcements running across the bilge).  It still flexed
and had the hull/keel joint crack nearly every haul out.

Apparently Tim Jackett was the designer of the Tartan 33.  The boat owner
worked with Tim on a fix.  The fix was so expensive the boat owner let a
salvage auction site sell it and moved on to a different boat.

I suspect one could fix it with several layers of epoxy glass but I think
it's on the edge of the DIY envelope.  Not so much from the glassing
technique aspect but for the design aspect.  How much glass?  How far up
the bilge shoulder do you glass it?  Do you put all the layers in the
bilge/inside of the hull or do you put some on the outside as well?

Those are questions I'd give some serious thought.  Personally, if it was
my boat, I'd slap a bunch of epoxy glass on it but then I've done glass
work for years (including retabbing the floors in the above mentioned
Tartan).
--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 19:31 Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>>
>>
>> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex
>> with a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex
>> wasn't between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was
>> the entire hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very
>> accommodating marina manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor.
>> The entire bottom of the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the
>> keel bolts didn't appear to move relative to the rest of the hull,
>> everything was in it together. The hull/keel joint actually seems pretty
>> solid, so I am glad that we took this step before dropping the keel.
>> The hull flexing is something we should have caught right away, but we
>> looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel joint.
>>
>> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past
>> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good
>> finding.
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> Stephen
>>
>>

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Stephen:

 

My first boat was a Ranger 26 that had been modified (the cast 
iron keel was replaced with an IOR-style lead keel).  I discovered this after I 
bought the boat -- for a song, mind you, as it had been abandoned.  We tackled 
a variety of projects, including rebedding the keel bolts.  The bolt holes were 
visibly cracked and leaking a bit.  I can say with 100% certainty that the keel 
is now adequately supported, and the bolt holes will never leak again.  Based 
on my experience with the Ranger, my view is that nearly anything can be 
repaired on a fiberglass boat.  Given what you described, you can probably 
glass some stiffeners in place.

 

My concerns would be: 1) what caused the problem; and 2) fixing 
it correctly.  If you race the boat, you may also need to deal with 
weight/modification issues.  As to my first concern, a solid glass hull flexing 
enough to discern keel movement is obviously not normal.  Perhaps the boat ran 
hard aground?  As to my second concern, I suggest having a nautical engineer 
inspect the problem and recommend the repair.  I would not just go sailing and 
keep an eye on it.  The keel on the Cal 33 I grew up on developed a problem we 
were “keeping an eye on,” and the boat nearly sunk in the middle of Lake Erie 
(50 degree water) with me and a few law school buddies on board.  Had she gone 
down, we would have perished – no life raft on board, and not enough time for a 
rescue in water that cold.  The repair was relatively straightforward, and the 
boat is still sailing today.  Remarkably, although Cal 33 owners were not 
warned, Lapworth had already designed the fix.  It was an easy repair that has 
lasted for nearly 40 years, but the potential consequences of a pre-repair 
failure were disastrous.

 

On my 42, the leading edge of the keel where it meets the hull 
shows signs of cracking.  I promptly had a nautical engineer look at.  He was 
an intern or apprentice at C in the ‘70s, and based on his knowledge he 
concluded that the location of the cracks is not a critical stress point.  The 
weight of the keel is supported further aft, and the leading edge likely has 
fill inside and may be flexing enough to develop the cracks.  He concluded it 
is non-structural with no chance of catastrophic failure.  That’s the kind of 
problem I’m willing to keep an eye on.

 

Long story short: it can likely be repaired, but you need 
expert help.  This is not something to mess around with.  Good luck!

 

Matt

C 42 Custom   

 

From: Stephen Kidd via CnC-List  
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:31 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Stephen Kidd 
Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

 

Greetings, 

 

I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a while 
for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time to do a 
lot of reading and research following the leads provided through the list. As 
our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened the bolts and 
checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts went smoothly 
using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep socket. Before 
tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged with between 100 - 
150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to torque the keel bolts to 
350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the bolt spinning or washers digging 
into the glass. 

 

We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with a 
moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't 
between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the entire 
hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very accommodating marina 
manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor. The entire bottom of the 
bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the keel bolts didn't appear to move 
relative to the rest of the hull, everything was in it together. The hull/keel 
joint actually seems pretty solid, so I am glad that we took this step before 
dropping the keel. The hull flexing is something we should have caught right 
away, but we looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel 
joint. 

 

Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past 
discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good finding. 
We have seen cases where people have made significant and impressive structural 
repairs, many of which have been referenced here on the list, to increase 
rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the bilge area for signs of 
cracking or separation, and we have not identified anything obvious (untrained 
eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were we to go that route. The marina 
manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also not comfortable not knowing why the 
hull is visibly flexing. At the same time, several sailors at the marina 
suggested that 

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

That doesn't sound like anything that is supposed to happen. I would think
of somebody could flex it from the outside while someone is watching
inside, you should be able to see something. In any event, it seems like
something that might cause it to fall off at some point. I would think it
should be reinforced, or find out why that is happening. Maybe someone had
a hard grounding at some point.

Bill Coleman

On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 19:31 Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a
> while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time
> to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided through
> the list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened
> the bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts
> went smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep
> socket. Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged
> with between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to
> torque the keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the
> bolt spinning or washers digging into the glass.
>
> We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with
> a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't
> between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the
> entire hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very
> accommodating marina manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor.
> The entire bottom of the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the
> keel bolts didn't appear to move relative to the rest of the hull,
> everything was in it together. The hull/keel joint actually seems pretty
> solid, so I am glad that we took this step before dropping the keel.
> The hull flexing is something we should have caught right away, but we
> looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel joint.
>
> Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past
> discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good
> finding. We have seen cases where people have made significant and
> impressive structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on
> the list, to increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the
> bilge area for signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified
> anything obvious (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were
> we to go that route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also
> not comfortable not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same
> time, several sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and
> we should just go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is,
> that's beyond our comfort zone.
>
> So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have
> a question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take
> on? I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat
> that someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible
> boat for us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C
>
> Many thanks,
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
 Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are
> having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter
> projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat
> was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally.
>
>
>
> I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts
> . Here are some
> observations:
>
> 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation
> when lifted from the stands.
>
> 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak.
>
> 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C smile based on
> internet searches.
>
>
>
> Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?),
> fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Stephen
>
>
> Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 2022 Rendezvous

[Joel Delamirande via CnC-List]

I could be interested
On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 11:01 AM Dennis C. via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I'm interested.  Anywhere between Annapolis and New Orleans.
> --
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
> Too soon?
>>
>> We really had fun at the last ones!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe Della Barba
>>
>> Coquina C 35 MK I
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

-- 
Joel Delamirande
*www.jdroofing.ca *
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 2022 Rendezvous

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

I'm interested.  Anywhere between Annapolis and New Orleans.
--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

Too soon?
>
> We really had fun at the last ones!
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe Della Barba
>
> Coquina C 35 MK I
>
>
>
Please trim your messages before sending to the list.  Thankx

Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

You’re welcome!   It’s an easy way to record other people’s ideas and share. 
I took a google stroll in the 25-2 and can see it was introduced not long 
before before and it is likely built in a very similar way to windstar, meaning 
a solid hull, a ‘spider’ (shop made structural grid bonded to the hull) and the 
liner fastened to that with blobs of putty.  In Windstar’s case the liner is 
‘properly’ glassed to the hull only along the settee fronts, mostly running 
fore and aft, and outboard of the ends of the spider grid.  So it’s structural 
to that extent.If the 25 doesn’t have a spider it certainly has some kind 
of glassed-in transverse structure around the keel, in addition to the 
bulkheads at the forward ends of the settees.
I had a look at how the 25-2 is arranged  and I see that it has a deck stepped 
mast, bulkheads directly below that, and that the first keel bolt is aft of 
that area, with much of the keel support structure necessarily beneath the 
table.  I will assume that at least one of the keel bolts passes through the 
spider/ beam structure. 
At the risk of being Captain obvious now, It’s the hull skin itself and the 
transverse spider members fastened to it that stiffen the hull adjacent to the 
keel loading, so if something has failed, that’s it.  Though forward of the 
keel, The bulkheads do their part, and I would assume there is a transverse 
spider beam or at least built up glasswork/tabbing  along  the base of the 
bulkheads.  
Look really really closely at the tabbing and wood  along the bottom of the 
bulkheads below the mast, check failed tabbing, rot/wet wood, past repairs.
Clean it and shine a bright light, you are as cracks might be hard to see.  
Look at the spider-grid where it attaches to the hull and focus on the joints 
and especially corners and notches where the grid is glassed in and the keel 
stresses concentrate.  ( think about what might let go first in a really hard 
grounding)  Look for blobs of putty where the liner is attached and see if any 
are cracked and if chips fallen out- an indication of flexing.
Obviously if you see evidence of a prior repair, investigate.  
Good luck!
Dave 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 18, 2022, at 10:12 PM, Stephen Kidd  wrote:
> 
> 
> Good idea, and it makes sense to check. I'm pretty certain nothing has been 
> tinkered with, given the consistent patina and materials throughout, but 
> we've had her all of 4 of her 42 years. 
> 
> The hull is indeed solid fiberglass with a cored deck. So at least it's not 
> the scariest of the scary. 
> 
> I've got to say thanks for the the Windstar blog! It's an incredible resource 
> and our go-to for getting a sense of how these boats fit together.
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022, 8:45 PM Dave S  wrote:
>> Another thought, and this may seem like a silly question - has the boat been 
>> modified in any way?   Any structure removed?
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:50 PM, Dave S  wrote:
 
>>> Curious.   If the hull is solid glass or cored and sound I’d tackle a diy 
>>> repair without hesitation, provided you are handy and are either willing to 
>>> learn about the techniques and material involved or have a knowledgeable 
>>> friend who can help.  There are many here who can help identify well 
>>> intentioned bad advice.
>>> HOWEVER- is this hull balsa cored below the waterline?  One  very nasty 
>>> possible hypothesis is that the keel support structures- transverse 
>>> ‘floors’ (beams) and bulkheads are bonded to the inner skin of a failed 
>>> cored hull.  This (I’d imagine) might cause what you are describing.  
>>> Now that I’ve scared you I’ll say I have no idea how the 25-2’s hull is 
>>> built, but this does fit the description.  Even that could be fixed but it 
>>> might be an involved and complex job, again depending on how the boat is 
>>> built.  
>>> 
>>> Dave 33-2 windstar 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
> On Mar 18, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Stephen Kidd via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
 
 Greetings, 
 
 I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a 
 while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us 
 time to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided 
 through the list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we 
 tightened the bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing 
 the bolts went smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an 
 extra deep socket. Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they 
 all budged with between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were 
 able to torque the keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication 
 of the bolt spinning or washers digging into the glass. 
 
 We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with 
 a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex