Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

When we are running way off, say around 160 – 150 in light air, we sometimes 
put the Genoa Sheet up over the end of the boom.

Holds it out nicely, and takes some of the weight off the leech that would pull 
it down  and deform it.

Seems to work well for us.

 

Bill Coleman

C 39 Erie, PA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 3:46 PM
To: cnc-list
Cc: RANDY; Michael Brown
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

 

"In light air and flat water the barn door trim seems to be the fastest."





It's been my observation that that's how the most experienced and winningest 
JAM boat skippers and crews in my club run downwind in their Catalina 27s, 
Ranger 26, and Cal 22 - wing and wing, headsail poled out.  They must believe 
that's fastest, and they've passed me doing it while I was broad reaching and 
gybing downwind.  Made a believer out of me, so I did the "if you can't lick 
'em, join 'em" thing.





Cheers,

Randy Stafford

S/V Grenadine

C 30-1 #7

Ken Caryl, CO

 

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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Michael,

 

I agree that the “rule of thumb’ would mean that the headsail would be at about 
a 60 degree angle to the centerline of the boat.

 

And I also see your point about the headsail at 90 degrees projecting the 
maximum area for force to be generated. The “barn door” being pushed by the 
wind. 

 

But if you note, in the area just above the sections labeled “drag predominate” 
are equations for the coefficient of lift and drag, and a graphical 
representation of the coefficient for various angles of attack (with sail area 
and apparent wind speed being constant)

 

For a constant sail area and apparent wind, the maximum coefficient of drag is 
about 1.20 for a “barn door” at 90 degree angle of attack. With the angle of 
attack at 30 degrees, which is what you have with the headsail at 60 degrees to 
the centerline of the boat (and neglecting the impact of the aspect ratio of 
the sail), the coefficient of lift reaches about 1.50.

 

So the sail at 60 degrees to centerline vs. 90 degrees to centerline, you would 
see about 25% more driving force from the sail.

 

Now the force generated is also proportional to the square of the apparent wind 
speed. As the boat going dead down win accelerates to its maximum speed, the 
apparent wind speed will decrease. So the driving force will drop off 
significantly.

 

With the angle of attack at 30 degrees, the apparent wind will stay higher as 
the boat accelerates, and so the driving force will stay higher.

 

This impact is shown in the polar diagrams shown as part of the discussion you 
cite. Notice that the max VMG downwind is generated for a course of about 30 
degrees off DDW for wind speeds lower than 10 knots,  going up to about 10 to 
15 degrees off DDW as the true wind speed approaches 30 and boat speed 
approaches 10.

 

Bottom line, maintaining a curved shape to the headsail and flow over the sail 
generates more drive than a flat “barn door” sail.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Michael 
Brown via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 10:50 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Michael Brown <m...@tkg.ca>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

 

Hi Rick,

  I am not familiar with the rule of thumb for optimum whisker pole length, 
though it looks like
the geometry is setting the pole at right angles to the boat, and the jib holds 
a 60 degree angle
at the tack.

  For light air dead run I set the jib at 90 degrees to the centerline to 
maximize projected sail area
and ignore flow around the sail. As you say a barn door.

  About 3/4 the way down there is a chart in the section "Drag Predominate ( 
separated flow )":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forces_on_sails

  The driving force ( Fr ) in the right hand side diagram is at maximum with 
the sail at 90 degrees.
Also the drag force is directly in line with the boat, presumably where the 
mark is, where as if the
sail was at a 60 degree angle to the wind the lift would also be at 60 degrees.

  I am in an area where PHRF allows long whisker poles and no adjustment for 
length. In light air
and flat water the barn door trim seems to be the fastest.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1

 

From: "Rick Brass" <rickbr...@earthlink.net <mailto:rickbr...@earthlink.net> > 

If your J is 13?6?, the LP of your 155 is 20?11?. By the rule of thumb, the 
optimum whisker pole length is about 16?9?. 

With the 13?4?pole at the mast and perpendicular to the centerline of the boat, 
the line from the tack fitting to the end of the pole is 19?1?. Perpendicular 
to the center line would project the sail out as far as possible (which is what 
the whisker pole is supposed to do). There should have been some curvature to 
the sail, which you want so you get the maximum pressure on the sail (a cupped 
shape generates more pressure than a flat barn door shape). I find I usually 
run the pole about 15 to 20 degrees forward of the mast to promote that cupped 
shape. 

The LP of your 135 would be about 18?3?, so the spin pole would stretch the 
sail flat and still be a bit forward of perpendicular. (Optimum whisker pole 
would be 14?7?) You might need to run the spin pole at a forward angle to get 
the proper sail shape, though that doesn?t get you the maximum projection of 
the sail. 

And the essence of a whisker pole is that the length is adjustable, so you and 
match the length to the size of the headsail you are flying. 

Mike Hoyt?s comment that a pole longer than J costs you seconds in most PHRF 
areas is true. But not in all areas. And some of us are cruisers who want to 
get the most out of the boat, even though too short handed to fly the spin 
except on a log run. 

Plus I have always thought the use of J for max pole length in non-spin racing 
to be arbitrary and slightly inequitable in those regions that give a separate 
rating for spin and JAM racing. Seems like if you race JAM, you 

Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[William Walker via CnC-List]

If you are in a phrf region that doesn't limit the whisker pole to the J 
measurement it may well be faster to go dead downwind poled out.  
Since under LakevMichigan phrf we are limited to J I have had success with 
gybing downwind.  BUT, it requires that you know and apply your Polars to the 
conditions and wind speed and be committed to them.  You can't just go as fast 
as you can in the wrong direction and expect it to turn out well.
My experience
Bill Walker
CnC  36
Pentwater, Mi  


On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Same experience in my JAM fleet with 30-40 footers--barn doors win every 
time--in spite of advice to sail a hotter angle and jibe.
 
Can't figure out whether the advice is BS or I sail off at an angle where the 
extra distance is not made up by the faster speed and the subsequent jibes.
 
Until I am passed by a boat that jibes downwind in light air, I am sticking 
with the bard door approach!
 
Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
C 36 XL/kcb #77
Oriental, NC
 
cenel...@aol.com
 
 





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greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Same experience in my JAM fleet with 30-40 footers--barn doors win every 
time--in spite of advice to sail a hotter angle and jibe.
 
Can't figure out whether the advice is BS or I sail off at an angle where the 
extra distance is not made up by the faster speed and the subsequent jibes.
 
Until I am passed by a boat that jibes downwind in light air, I am sticking 
with the bard door approach!
 
Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
C 36 XL/kcb #77
Oriental, NC
 
cenel...@aol.com

 
 
-Original Message-
From: RANDY via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: RANDY <randy.staff...@comcast.net>; Michael Brown <m...@tkg.ca>
Sent: Wed, Aug 24, 2016 3:47 pm
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole



"In light air and flat water the barn door trim seems to be the fastest."


It's been my observation that that's how the most experienced and winningest 
JAM boat skippers and crews in my club run downwind in their Catalina 27s, 
Ranger 26, and Cal 22 - wing and wing, headsail poled out.  They must believe 
that's fastest, and they've passed me doing it while I was broad reaching and 
gybing downwind.  Made a believer out of me, so I did the "if you can't lick 
'em, join 'em" thing.


Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30-1 #7
Ken Caryl, CO



From: "Michael Brown via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: "Michael Brown" <m...@tkg.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 8:49:47 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole



Hi Rick,



  I am not familiar with the rule of thumb for optimum whisker pole length, 
though it looks like
the geometry is setting the pole at right angles to the boat, and the jib holds 
a 60 degree angle
at the tack.



  For light air dead run I set the jib at 90 degrees to the centerline to 
maximize projected sail area
and ignore flow around the sail. As you say a barn door.



  About 3/4 the way down there is a chart in the section "Drag Predominate ( 
separated flow )":



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forces_on_sails



  The driving force ( Fr ) in the right hand side diagram is at maximum with 
the sail at 90 degrees.
Also the drag force is directly in line with the boat, presumably where the 
mark is, where as if the
sail was at a 60 degree angle to the wind the lift would also be at 60 degrees.



  I am in an area where PHRF allows long whisker poles and no adjustment for 
length. In light air
and flat water the barn door trim seems to be the fastest.



Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





From: "Rick Brass" <rickbr...@earthlink.net> 



If your J is 13?6?, the LP of your 155 is 20?11?. By the rule of thumb, the 
optimum whisker pole length is about 16?9?. 
 
With the 13?4?pole at the mast and perpendicular to the centerline of the boat, 
the line from the tack fitting to the end of the pole is 19?1?. Perpendicular 
to the center line would project the sail out as far as possible (which is what 
the whisker pole is supposed to do). There should have been some curvature to 
the sail, which you want so you get the maximum pressure on the sail (a cupped 
shape generates more pressure than a flat barn door shape). I find I usually 
run the pole about 15 to 20 degrees forward of the mast to promote that cupped 
shape. 
 
The LP of your 135 would be about 18?3?, so the spin pole would stretch the 
sail flat and still be a bit forward of perpendicular. (Optimum whisker pole 
would be 14?7?) You might need to run the spin pole at a forward angle to get 
the proper sail shape, though that doesn?t get you the maximum projection of 
the sail. 
 
And the essence of a whisker pole is that the length is adjustable, so you and 
match the length to the size of the headsail you are flying. 
 
Mike Hoyt?s comment that a pole longer than J costs you seconds in most PHRF 
areas is true. But not in all areas. And some of us are cruisers who want to 
get the most out of the boat, even though too short handed to fly the spin 
except on a log run. 
 
Plus I have always thought the use of J for max pole length in non-spin racing 
to be arbitrary and slightly inequitable in those regions that give a separate 
rating for spin and JAM racing. Seems like if you race JAM, you ought to be 
able to optimize the boat for JAM racing. 
 
Rick Brass 
 
Washington, NC 







___



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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!




___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supporte

Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[RANDY via CnC-List]

" In light air and flat water the barn door trim seems to be the fastest." 

It's been my observation that that's how the most experienced and winningest 
JAM boat skippers and crews in my club run downwind in their Catalina 27s, 
Ranger 26, and Cal 22 - wing and wing, headsail poled out. They must believe 
that's fastest, and they've passed me doing it while I was broad reaching and 
gybing downwind. Made a believer out of me, so I did the "if you can't lick 
'em, join 'em" thing. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Brown via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Michael Brown" <m...@tkg.ca> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 8:49:47 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole 

Hi Rick, 

I am not familiar with the rule of thumb for optimum whisker pole length, 
though it looks like 
the geometry is setting the pole at right angles to the boat, and the jib holds 
a 60 degree angle 
at the tack. 

For light air dead run I set the jib at 90 degrees to the centerline to 
maximize projected sail area 
and ignore flow around the sail. As you say a barn door. 

About 3/4 the way down there is a chart in the section "Drag Predominate ( 
separated flow )": 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forces_on_sails 

The driving force ( Fr ) in the right hand side diagram is at maximum with the 
sail at 90 degrees. 
Also the drag force is directly in line with the boat, presumably where the 
mark is, where as if the 
sail was at a 60 degree angle to the wind the lift would also be at 60 degrees. 

I am in an area where PHRF allows long whisker poles and no adjustment for 
length. In light air 
and flat water the barn door trim seems to be the fastest. 

Michael Brown 
Windburn 
C 30-1 




From: "Rick Brass" <rickbr...@earthlink.net> 

If your J is 13?6?, the LP of your 155 is 20?11?. By the rule of thumb, the 
optimum whisker pole length is about 16?9?. 

With the 13?4?pole at the mast and perpendicular to the centerline of the boat, 
the line from the tack fitting to the end of the pole is 19?1?. Perpendicular 
to the center line would project the sail out as far as possible (which is what 
the whisker pole is supposed to do). There should have been some curvature to 
the sail, which you want so you get the maximum pressure on the sail (a cupped 
shape generates more pressure than a flat barn door shape). I find I usually 
run the pole about 15 to 20 degrees forward of the mast to promote that cupped 
shape. 

The LP of your 135 would be about 18?3?, so the spin pole would stretch the 
sail flat and still be a bit forward of perpendicular. (Optimum whisker pole 
would be 14?7?) You might need to run the spin pole at a forward angle to get 
the proper sail shape, though that doesn?t get you the maximum projection of 
the sail. 

And the essence of a whisker pole is that the length is adjustable, so you and 
match the length to the size of the headsail you are flying. 

Mike Hoyt?s comment that a pole longer than J costs you seconds in most PHRF 
areas is true. But not in all areas. And some of us are cruisers who want to 
get the most out of the boat, even though too short handed to fly the spin 
except on a log run. 

Plus I have always thought the use of J for max pole length in non-spin racing 
to be arbitrary and slightly inequitable in those regions that give a separate 
rating for spin and JAM racing. Seems like if you race JAM, you ought to be 
able to optimize the boat for JAM racing. 

Rick Brass 

Washington, NC 






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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

For what its worth, Forespar gives whisker pole sizing info for C:

http://www.forespar.com/products/sail-spinnaker-pole-size-guide.shtml

In PHRF Long Island Sound, the max whisker pole length is equal to your 
LP measurement.  If you use your J-length spinnaker pole instead, PHRF 
LIS gives you a +6 credit for LP above 135%, and +3 for LP from 120% to 
135%.


Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY


On 8/24/2016 10:49 AM, Michael Brown via CnC-List wrote:

Hi Rick,

  I am not familiar with the rule of thumb for optimum whisker pole 
length, though it looks like
the geometry is setting the pole at right angles to the boat, and the 
jib holds a 60 degree angle

at the tack.

  For light air dead run I set the jib at 90 degrees to the centerline 
to maximize projected sail area

and ignore flow around the sail. As you say a barn door.

  About 3/4 the way down there is a chart in the section "Drag 
Predominate ( separated flow )":


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forces_on_sails

  The driving force ( Fr ) in the right hand side diagram is at 
maximum with the sail at 90 degrees.
Also the drag force is directly in line with the boat, presumably 
where the mark is, where as if the
sail was at a 60 degree angle to the wind the lift would also be at 60 
degrees.


  I am in an area where PHRF allows long whisker poles and no 
adjustment for length. In light air

and flat water the barn door trim seems to be the fastest.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


From: "Rick Brass" 

If your J is 13?6?, the LP of your 155 is 20?11?. By the rule of
thumb, the optimum whisker pole length is about 16?9?.

With the 13?4?pole at the mast and perpendicular to the centerline
of the boat, the line from the tack fitting to the end of the pole
is 19?1?. Perpendicular to the center line would project the sail
out as far as possible (which is what the whisker pole is supposed
to do). There should have been some curvature to the sail, which
you want so you get the maximum pressure on the sail (a cupped
shape generates more pressure than a flat barn door shape). I find
I usually run the pole about 15 to 20 degrees forward of the mast
to promote that cupped shape.

The LP of your 135 would be about 18?3?, so the spin pole would
stretch the sail flat and still be a bit forward of perpendicular.
(Optimum whisker pole would be 14?7?) You might need to run the
spin pole at a forward angle to get the proper sail shape, though
that doesn?t get you the maximum projection of the sail.

And the essence of a whisker pole is that the length is
adjustable, so you and match the length to the size of the
headsail you are flying.

Mike Hoyt?s comment that a pole longer than J costs you seconds in
most PHRF areas is true. But not in all areas. And some of us are
cruisers who want to get the most out of the boat, even though too
short handed to fly the spin except on a log run.

Plus I have always thought the use of J for max pole length in
non-spin racing to be arbitrary and slightly inequitable in those
regions that give a separate rating for spin and JAM racing. Seems
like if you race JAM, you ought to be able to optimize the boat
for JAM racing.

Rick Brass

Washington, NC





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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Hi Rick,

  I am not familiar with the rule of thumb for optimum whisker pole length, 
though it looks like
the geometry is setting the pole at right angles to the boat, and the jib holds 
a 60 degree angle
at the tack.

  For light air dead run I set the jib at 90 degrees to the centerline to 
maximize projected sail area
and ignore flow around the sail. As you say a barn door.

  About 3/4 the way down there is a chart in the section "Drag Predominate ( 
separated flow )":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forces_on_sails

  The driving force ( Fr ) in the right hand side diagram is at maximum with 
the sail at 90 degrees.
Also the drag force is directly in line with the boat, presumably where the 
mark is, where as if the
sail was at a 60 degree angle to the wind the lift would also be at 60 degrees.

  I am in an area where PHRF allows long whisker poles and no adjustment for 
length. In light air
and flat water the barn door trim seems to be the fastest.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


 

From: "Rick Brass"  

If your J is 13?6?, the LP of your 155 is 20?11?. By the rule of thumb, the 
optimum whisker pole length is about 16?9?. 
 
With the 13?4?pole at the mast and perpendicular to the centerline of the boat, 
the line from the tack fitting to the end of the pole is 19?1?. Perpendicular 
to the center line would project the sail out as far as possible (which is what 
the whisker pole is supposed to do). There should have been some curvature to 
the sail, which you want so you get the maximum pressure on the sail (a cupped 
shape generates more pressure than a flat barn door shape). I find I usually 
run the pole about 15 to 20 degrees forward of the mast to promote that cupped 
shape. 
 
The LP of your 135 would be about 18?3?, so the spin pole would stretch the 
sail flat and still be a bit forward of perpendicular. (Optimum whisker pole 
would be 14?7?) You might need to run the spin pole at a forward angle to get 
the proper sail shape, though that doesn?t get you the maximum projection of 
the sail. 
 
And the essence of a whisker pole is that the length is adjustable, so you and 
match the length to the size of the headsail you are flying. 
 
Mike Hoyt?s comment that a pole longer than J costs you seconds in most PHRF 
areas is true. But not in all areas. And some of us are cruisers who want to 
get the most out of the boat, even though too short handed to fly the spin 
except on a log run. 
 
Plus I have always thought the use of J for max pole length in non-spin racing 
to be arbitrary and slightly inequitable in those regions that give a separate 
rating for spin and JAM racing. Seems like if you race JAM, you ought to be 
able to optimize the boat for JAM racing. 
 
Rick Brass 
 
Washington, NC 
 

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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

If your J is 13’6”, the LP of your 155 is 20’11”. By the rule of thumb, the 
optimum whisker pole length is about 16’9”.

 

With the 13’4”pole at the mast and perpendicular to the centerline of the boat, 
the line from the tack fitting to the end of the pole is 19’1”. Perpendicular 
to the center line would project the sail out as far as possible (which is what 
the whisker pole is supposed to do). There should have been some curvature to 
the sail, which you want so you get the maximum pressure on the sail (a cupped 
shape generates more pressure than a flat barn door shape). I find I usually 
run the pole about 15 to 20 degrees forward of the mast to promote that cupped 
shape.

 

The LP of your 135 would be about 18’3”, so the spin pole would stretch the 
sail flat and still be a bit forward of perpendicular. (Optimum whisker pole 
would be 14’7”) You might need to run the spin pole at a forward angle to get 
the proper sail shape, though that doesn’t get you the maximum projection of 
the sail.

 

And the essence of a whisker pole is that the length is adjustable, so you and 
match the length to the size of the headsail you are flying.

 

Mike Hoyt’s comment that a pole longer than J costs you seconds in most PHRF 
areas is true. But not in all areas. And some of us are cruisers who want to 
get the most out of the boat, even though too short handed to fly the spin 
except on a log run.

 

Plus I have always thought the use of J for max pole length in non-spin racing 
to be arbitrary and slightly inequitable in those regions that give a separate 
rating for spin and JAM racing. Seems like if you race JAM, you ought to be 
able to optimize the boat for JAM racing.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 10:24 AM
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: RANDY <randy.staff...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

 

My SPL is 13'4" and my J is 13'6".  I used the spin pole to pole out my 155% 
genoa running wing and wing, and it stretched the sail out flat.  Couldn't have 
done it with my 135% genoa; the spin pole would be too long for that.  Using 
Rick's calculation below (optimal whisker pole length is 80% of LP), my spin 
pole is ~4" too long as a whisker pole for my 155.

 

Cheers,

Randy

 

  _  

From: "Mike via CnC-List Hoyt" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: "Mike Hoyt" <mike.h...@impgroup.com <mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com> >
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 6:22:23 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

 

Spin or whisker pole longer than J is subject to penalty in most areas

 

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I must have done some math or measurement wrong. I'll have to re-measure all my 
headsails making sure to use LP, and re-calculate % of J. The sail I've been 
calling my 155 must be smaller than 155% of my foretriangle, because a 22' 
whisker pole would be too long for it. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Brown via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Michael Brown" <m...@tkg.ca> 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:47:34 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole 

If the desired effect is to have both the main and genoa projecting maximum 
area 
going dead down wind them both sails need to be set at right angles to the 
wind, 
which is about the same as right angle to the centerline of the boat. 

Assuming a 155% LP and the foot at right angle to the boat the whisker pole 
would 
be > 184.5% of J. The ">" part is because the foot is larger than 155% of J. 

On my C 30-1 with a 13.5' J that comes out to slightly under 26'. I have 
found allowing 
a slight curve to the foot is OK, and having the angle a bit under 90 degrees 
is acceptable 
leaving a 24' whisker pole. 

I carry a 22' Forespar Line Control whisker pole, legal under PHRF Lake 
Ontario. In very 
light air I use all 22' of it. 

In heavier air on a reach I may use it to control sail shape, holds the clew at 
the proper 
spot and controls how much is being spilled off. The line control pole is 
adjustable so 
I can find a spot to raise the spinnaker car to that provides the combination 
of downward 
angle and distance needed. 

Michael Brown 
Windburn 
C 30-1 



Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:10 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole 

Depending on the size of your boat and the size of the sail you are poling out, 
your spin pole might be perfectly acceptable in lieu of a whisker pole. 

I?ve always understood the optimum length of a whisker pole is 80% of the LP of 
the sail being poled out. 

80% of a 150 would be 1.2xJ. So if your J was 10?, as on a 27V, the spin pole 
would be about 24? less than optimal. On my 38 mk2 (J=16.3) with a 135, the 
difference between the spin pole and optimal whisker pole would only be about 
15?. 

Rick Brass 
Washington, NC 


Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole 

I poled out my 155% genoa last night with the spin pole, because I don't have a 
whisker pole, and I found the spin pole to be almost too long. 

Cheers, 
Randy 




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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

If the desired effect is to have both the main and genoa projecting maximum area
going dead down wind them both sails need to be set at right angles to the wind,
which is about the same as right angle to the centerline of the boat.

Assuming a 155% LP and the foot at right angle to the boat the whisker pole 
would
be > 184.5% of J. The ">" part is because the foot is larger than 155% of J.

On my C 30-1 with a 13.5' J that comes out to slightly under 26'. I have 
found allowing
a slight curve to the foot is OK, and having the angle a bit under 90 degrees 
is acceptable
leaving a 24' whisker pole.

I carry a 22' Forespar Line Control whisker pole, legal under PHRF Lake 
Ontario. In very
light air I use all 22' of it.

In heavier air on a reach I may use it to control sail shape, holds the clew at 
the proper
spot and controls how much is being spilled off. The line control pole is 
adjustable so
I can find a spot to raise the spinnaker car to that provides the combination 
of downward
angle and distance needed.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:10 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole 
 
Depending on the size of your boat and the size of the sail you are poling out, 
your spin pole might be perfectly acceptable in lieu of a whisker pole. 
 
I?ve always understood the optimum length of a whisker pole is 80% of the LP of 
the sail being poled out. 
 
80% of a 150 would be 1.2xJ. So if your J was 10?, as on a 27V, the spin pole 
would be about 24? less than optimal. On my 38 mk2 (J=16.3) with a 135, the 
difference between the spin pole and optimal whisker pole would only be about 
15?. 
 
Rick Brass 
Washington, NC 
 
 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole 
 
I poled out my 155% genoa last night with the spin pole, because I don't have a 
whisker pole, and I found the spin pole to be almost too long. 
 
Cheers, 
Randy 
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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[gnylander--- via CnC-List]

Randy, our boats are aa bit odd - with a 13.5 foot J 
measurement, our spin poles are that long, and they work 
well with a 155. Other boats with smaller J measurements 
don't get the benefit.


Gary #593

On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 03:03:09 + (UTC)
 RANDY via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
I poled out my 155% genoa last night with the spin pole, 
because I don't have a whisker pole, and I found the spin 
pole to be almost too long. 

Cheers, 
Randy 


- Original Message -

From: "Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Ronald B. Frerker" <rbfrer...@yahoo.com> 
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 1:33:25 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole 





"If you are considering leaving the asymm tack on 
centerline and using 
a pole like you would use a whisker pole on a headsail I 
guess that 
would work but as pointed out is not legal under common 
Racing 
Rules of Sailing." 

I've found the spin pole is too short for use as a 
whisker pole even when poling out a genny (150%). For a 
chute which is about 180% the clew will be in way too far 
to pull well I would think. 
Ron 
Wild Cheri 
C 30-1 
STL 




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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Depending on the size of your boat and the size of the sail you are poling out, 
your spin pole might be perfectly acceptable in lieu of a whisker pole.

 

I’ve always understood the optimum length of a whisker pole is 80% of the LP of 
the sail being poled out.

 

80% of a 150 would be 1.2xJ. So if your J was 10’, as on a 27V, the spin pole 
would be about 24” less than optimal. On my 38 mk2 (J=16.3) with a 135, the 
difference between the spin pole and optimal whisker pole would only be about 
15”.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 11:03 PM
To: cnc-list <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: RANDY <randy.staff...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

 

I poled out my 155% genoa last night with the spin pole, because I don't have a 
whisker pole, and I found the spin pole to be almost too long.

 

Cheers,
Randy

 

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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[RANDY via CnC-List]

I poled out my 155% genoa last night with the spin pole, because I don't have a 
whisker pole, and I found the spin pole to be almost too long. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Ronald B. Frerker" <rbfrer...@yahoo.com> 
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 1:33:25 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole 




"If you are considering leaving the asymm tack on centerline and using 
a pole like you would use a whisker pole on a headsail I guess that 
would work but as pointed out is not legal under common Racing 
Rules of Sailing." 

I've found the spin pole is too short for use as a whisker pole even when 
poling out a genny (150%). For a chute which is about 180% the clew will be in 
way too far to pull well I would think. 
Ron 
Wild Cheri 
C 30-1 
STL 



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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

If you are planning on using a pole to stretch the genoa, then you are right. 
But….. in our PHRF area, you cannot use a pole longer than the J measurement 
(which is the length of almost all spinnaker poles) without penalty, even on a 
genoa.

 

I bought a whisker pole to use on the genoa, but with that (racing) 
restriction, it was not useful at all. For cruising, it would be. Sold the pole.

 

And, what we’ve been talking about is using the spinnaker pole with an 
asymmetrical chute – we are talking about using it at the TACK, not the clew, 
to allow the chute to be flexible – at the forestay for reaching, but able to 
be moved backward to project the chute out to windward and be used for downwind 
sailing. Not as good as a full bodied symmetrical chute for downwind, but 
better than having to gybe downwind.

 

When we raced a J-24 with a regular chute, we did gybe downwind, as we found 
the boat was faster at about 140-150 degrees off the wind than dead downwind – 
enough to make up for the extra distance traveled (and we were able to keep the 
chute full during the gybes). On my 30-1, the opposite is true, because of a 
masthead chute with big high shoulders, vs. the fractional chute on the 24.

 

Gary

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ronald B. 
Frerker via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 3:33 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Ronald B. Frerker <rbfrer...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

 

 

 

"If you are considering leaving the asymm tack on centerline and using
a pole like you would use a whisker pole on a headsail I guess that
would work but as pointed out is not legal under common Racing
Rules of Sailing."

 

I've found the spin pole is too short for use as a whisker pole even when 
poling out a genny (150%).  For a chute which is about 180% the clew will be in 
way too far to pull well I would think.

Ron

Wild Cheri

C 30-1

STL

 

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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

"If you are considering leaving the asymm tack on centerline and using
a pole like you would use a whisker pole on a headsail I guess that
would work but as pointed out is not legal under common Racing
Rules of Sailing."
I've found the spin pole is too short for use as a whisker pole even when 
poling out a genny (150%).  For a chute which is about 180% the clew will be in 
way too far to pull well I would think.RonWild CheriC 30-1STL

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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I have both symm and asymm spinnakers flying from a pole. I assume
you mean to connect a guy to the spinnaker tack and pole that out.
The symm is better from 120 AWA to 180 AWA, the asymm starts to
work as well tighter than 120 AWA.

If you are considering leaving the asymm tack on centerline and using
a pole like you would use a whisker pole on a headsail I guess that
would work but as pointed out is not legal under common Racing
Rules of Sailing.

In light air you might be able to fly the asymm even when center tacked
by starting dead downwind then crossing the lee. In light air I do that
running J with a couple of people sitting on the boom to control it.
As an example with the boom out to port and the jib or asymm out to
starboard go downwind. The jib or asymm usually will not fill well.
Cross over the lee gently until the asymm fills out, then return closer
back to the lee. With a bit of practice you can keep the asymm full
and pulling. Obviously this can be dangerous due to an uncontrolled
gybe, but in under 5 kts and no waves it does work. Also note that despite
having the boom out to port you might not be considered to be
sailing on starboard.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:44 AM, TOM VINCENT via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: 
 
> I race on Wednesday nights on the Bohemia River in Maryland and lately the 
> race committee has been doing a better job having a windward start and a 
> down wind leg. Unfortunately, I use an assymetrical spinnaker which does 
> very poorly dead down wind, even gybing has not helped. One of my crew was 
> wondering if we used a regular spinnaker pole, if it would help us down 
> wind. I was wondering if anyone on the forum has any experience using a 
> pole with an assymetrical spinnaker. 
> 
> Tom Vincent 
> Frolic II, C 36 cb 
> Chesapeake City, MD 
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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

The folks I know who use poles with asyms use them hooked to the tack. Just 
like a regular spinnaker but better at reaching. One of them (Cal 40) was just 
second in fleet and first in class at Newport to Bermuda.

 

Gary

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of tom via 
CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 8:52 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: tom <to6...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

 

Mike's advice is spot on. If your thinking of using the pole as to :"wing out" 
the asym as you might do with a genoa; this would be totally illegal. The pole 
could only be used to attach the tack of the sail while the clew must remain 
free-flying. PHRF regulations generally state that there be no outside force 
from the hull to the sheet or clew of a spinnaker. Check with your local to be 
sure.

 

Tom Oryniak

Carry On,  33-1

New Jersey

 

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:44 AM, TOM VINCENT via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

I race on Wednesday nights on the Bohemia River in Maryland and lately the race 
committee has been doing a better job having a windward start and a down wind 
leg. Unfortunately, I use an assymetrical spinnaker which does very poorly dead 
down wind, even gybing has not helped. One of my crew was wondering if we used 
a regular spinnaker pole, if it would help us down wind. I was wondering if 
anyone on the forum has any experience using a pole with an assymetrical 
spinnaker.

 

Tom Vincent

Frolic II, C 36 cb

Chesapeake City, MD


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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[tom via CnC-List]

Mike's advice is spot on. If your thinking of using the pole as to :"wing
out" the asym as you might do with a genoa; this would be totally illegal.
The pole could only be used to attach the tack of the sail while the clew
must remain free-flying. PHRF regulations generally state that there be no
outside force from the hull to the sheet or clew of a spinnaker. Check with
your local to be sure.

Tom Oryniak
Carry On,  33-1
New Jersey

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:44 AM, TOM VINCENT via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I race on Wednesday nights on the Bohemia River in Maryland and lately the
> race committee has been doing a better job having a windward start and a
> down wind leg. Unfortunately, I use an assymetrical spinnaker which does
> very poorly dead down wind, even gybing has not helped. One of my crew was
> wondering if we used a regular spinnaker pole, if it would help us down
> wind. I was wondering if anyone on the forum has any experience using a
> pole with an assymetrical spinnaker.
>
> Tom Vincent
> Frolic II, C 36 cb
> Chesapeake City, MD
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Jeff Hodor via CnC-List]

If sailing at the right angles I believe you can be competitivesomewhat. 
What was the true wind speed usually. Say on a frustrating night?  Are you 
trying to follow the symmetrical chutes to the leeward mark at the same angle? 
In anything but a good blow you should be sailing a much higher angle and 
therefore gybing more. It will feel very very strange when you are doing it 
right, like at the right angles. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 17, 2016, at 2:48 PM, Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> 
> Two friends, who are now getting ready to start the Newport to Bermuda race 
> on their Cal 40s,  carry both symmetrical and asymmetrical chutes. They use 
> their pole with both. When they have variable conditions and the wind is from 
> the beam and moving back and forth, they can put the asym on the pole and 
> bring it back when necessary, but can bring it to the forestay for reaching.
>  
> The rules (PHRF Chesapeake) penalize for both spinnakers (3 sec) and have 
> more penalties for poles longer than J. If you use a whisker pole, you have 
> to mark it at the J measurement and not go longer or you will get penalized.
>  
> Gary, St. Michaels MD
>  
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh 
> Muckley via CnC-List
> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 11:54 AM
> To: C List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole
>  
> I think you'll find that at typical spinnaker pole is too short.  Spin poles 
> are roughly equal to the "J" length.  As I understand it an asym pole should 
> be roughly the same length as the foot.
> 
> I just bought a whisker pole from forespar.  The website has lots of guidance 
> regarding recommended pole length.
> 
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
> 
> On Jun 17, 2016 11:45 AM, "TOM VINCENT via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
> wrote:
> I race on Wednesday nights on the Bohemia River in Maryland and lately the 
> race committee has been doing a better job having a windward start and a down 
> wind leg. Unfortunately, I use an assymetrical spinnaker which does very 
> poorly dead down wind, even gybing has not helped. One of my crew was 
> wondering if we used a regular spinnaker pole, if it would help us down wind. 
> I was wondering if anyone on the forum has any experience using a pole with 
> an assymetrical spinnaker.
>  
> Tom Vincent
> Frolic II, C 36 cb
> Chesapeake City, MD
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Tom

To answer your question it can be done.  On two occasions we have flown an asym 
off the pole.  In both instances the boats involved had both symmetric 
spinnakers and asymmetric declared.

One time the skipper on a Frers 33 (not mine) decided the next leg was a reach 
and opted for the asym over the sym spin.  Wind moved aft and rather than 
changing sails we moved the tack from centerline to the pole using a dedicated 
guy and ran it like a symmetric spinnaker.  It was better than tacked 
centerline but not s good as the regular symmetric spinnaker

The other time was on a C  The symmetric spinnaker was washed out of the 
bag by waves just prior to launch and damaged badly.  This was a distance race 
and since we had the experience previously on the Frers we ran the asym 
(eventually) using pole, sheet and guy.  It worked as well

I don't think gybing would be any fun though 

Mike

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of TOM VINCENT 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 12:45 PM
To: C Forum
Cc: TOM VINCENT
Subject: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

I race on Wednesday nights on the Bohemia River in Maryland and lately the race 
committee has been doing a better job having a windward start and a down wind 
leg. Unfortunately, I use an assymetrical spinnaker which does very poorly dead 
down wind, even gybing has not helped. One of my crew was wondering if we used 
a regular spinnaker pole, if it would help us down wind. I was wondering if 
anyone on the forum has any experience using a pole with an assymetrical 
spinnaker.

Tom Vincent
Frolic II, C 36 cb
Chesapeake City, MD
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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Many areas handicap a traditional boat (one designed for a symmetric spinnaker 
and pole) differently for a symmetric spinnaker vs asymmetric.  In Nova Scotia 
for example a C as a masthead boat would have a 9 sec/mile credit if the 
only spinnaker declared was an asymmetric tacked centerline at bow.  However if 
you were to fly it off a pole it would be treated as a symmetric spinnaker and 
this credit would be lost

C in NS.  171 (with 180% symmetric spinnaker, 150 genoa, main).  Same boat 
with only asym at bow 180.  Flying asym off pole as a declaration puts the PHRF 
180 boat back to 171.  Flying the ASYM off pole without declaring it is grounds 
for protest and DSQ

You should check with your Race Committee and/or handicap representative before 
trying this configuration.

Regards

Mike
Persistence
Halifax, NS



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2016 12:54 PM
To: C List
Cc: Josh Muckley
Subject: Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole


I think you'll find that at typical spinnaker pole is too short.  Spin poles 
are roughly equal to the "J" length.  As I understand it an asym pole should be 
roughly the same length as the foot.

I just bought a whisker pole from forespar.  The website has lots of guidance 
regarding recommended pole length.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD
On Jun 17, 2016 11:45 AM, "TOM VINCENT via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I race on Wednesday nights on the Bohemia River in Maryland and lately the race 
committee has been doing a better job having a windward start and a down wind 
leg. Unfortunately, I use an assymetrical spinnaker which does very poorly dead 
down wind, even gybing has not helped. One of my crew was wondering if we used 
a regular spinnaker pole, if it would help us down wind. I was wondering if 
anyone on the forum has any experience using a pole with an assymetrical 
spinnaker.

Tom Vincent
Frolic II, C 36 cb
Chesapeake City, MD

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Re: Stus-List Assymetrical spinnaker pole

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

I think you'll find that at typical spinnaker pole is too short.  Spin
poles are roughly equal to the "J" length.  As I understand it an asym pole
should be roughly the same length as the foot.

I just bought a whisker pole from forespar.  The website has lots of
guidance regarding recommended pole length.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD
On Jun 17, 2016 11:45 AM, "TOM VINCENT via CnC-List" 
wrote:

I race on Wednesday nights on the Bohemia River in Maryland and lately the
race committee has been doing a better job having a windward start and a
down wind leg. Unfortunately, I use an assymetrical spinnaker which does
very poorly dead down wind, even gybing has not helped. One of my crew was
wondering if we used a regular spinnaker pole, if it would help us down
wind. I was wondering if anyone on the forum has any experience using a
pole with an assymetrical spinnaker.

Tom Vincent
Frolic II, C 36 cb
Chesapeake City, MD

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Contributions are greatly appreciated!
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