Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)
As always, check with your local handicapping authority and carefully read the sailing instructions for each race/regatta. I seem to recall specific instructions on related issues in some event documents. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)
The US Sailing Appeal that dealt with using your body to push out a sheet involved the crew member’s leg and foot (legal). I believe you are correct about the limitation of leaning out on a boat that has lifelines, but that is a different issue than the outrigger prohibition. I think we’re all straightened out. From: Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 12:00 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3) Thanks for pointing out the case study, looks to be pretty clear on the topic. I had asked about the use of a reaching strut and was told it was an outrigger. Maybe the ISAF findings are not applicable here, no idea. I will check again and specifically point out that case. So leaning out as long as the torso is not outside of the lifelines ( RRS 48.2 ) and holding a sheet is fine. There may be an reaching strut project in my future. I didn't see your update before I emailed. I have the list set to digest mode so I get some delay in seeing everyone's emails. I don't always check them promptly either, sometimes busy or away. I do enjoy them, always informative. Or funny. Or both. Michael Brown Windburn C 30-1 Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:32:28 -0500 From: "Matthew L. Wolford" One last thing on this topic: there are two reported cases indicating that a person leaning out holding a sheet is also not an outrigger. From: Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 12:09 PM Cc: Matthew L. Wolford Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3) Michael: I assume that you sent your note below about there being no exception for reaching struts before I sent my note about Case 97. I don?t know who decides cases arising under the Rules these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing Appeals), but it used to be the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International Sailing Federation). I believe the organization is now called World Sailing or something. When a Case is decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be interpreted unless there is a contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of the pond). I assume that Canada has a similar prescription process. After your note about reaching struts yesterday, I searched RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had been decided under Rule 50.3 about reaching struts being a prohibited outrigger. I found Case 97, which interpreted the term ?outrigger? as used in Rule 50.3 to not prohibit ?jockey poles? because they redirect the guy, not a sheet or a sail. A jockey pole is the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do not understand your follow-up comment below that you ?have not found an exception.? Case 97 clearly interprets the term ?outrigger? as not applying to jockey poles (i.e., reaching struts). Am I missing something? Matt Wolford C 42 Custom From: Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 5:55 PM The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any disclaimers for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving consideration as opposed to something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks like it falls under the outrigger classification. Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out because outriggers are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also. Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance of RRS 60.4? I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht Club, so took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the rules was required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 90 PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world champions in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced before. It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it doesn't make sense. Michael Brown Windburn C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)
Thanks for pointing out the case study, looks to be pretty clear on the topic. I had asked about the use of a reaching strut and was told it was an outrigger. Maybe the ISAF findings are not applicable here, no idea. I will check again and specifically point out that case. So leaning out as long as the torso is not outside of the lifelines ( RRS 48.2 ) and holding a sheet is fine. There may be an reaching strut project in my future. I didn't see your update before I emailed. I have the list set to digest mode so I get some delay in seeing everyone's emails. I don't always check them promptly either, sometimes busy or away. I do enjoy them, always informative. Or funny. Or both. Michael Brown Windburn C 30-1 Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:32:28 -0500 From: "Matthew L. Wolford" One last thing on this topic: there are two reported cases indicating that a person leaning out holding a sheet is also not an outrigger. From: Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 12:09 PM Cc: Matthew L. Wolford Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3) Michael: I assume that you sent your note below about there being no exception for reaching struts before I sent my note about Case 97. I don?t know who decides cases arising under the Rules these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing Appeals), but it used to be the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International Sailing Federation). I believe the organization is now called World Sailing or something. When a Case is decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be interpreted unless there is a contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of the pond). I assume that Canada has a similar prescription process. After your note about reaching struts yesterday, I searched RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had been decided under Rule 50.3 about reaching struts being a prohibited outrigger. I found Case 97, which interpreted the term ?outrigger? as used in Rule 50.3 to not prohibit ?jockey poles? because they redirect the guy, not a sheet or a sail. A jockey pole is the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do not understand your follow-up comment below that you ?have not found an exception.? Case 97 clearly interprets the term ?outrigger? as not applying to jockey poles (i.e., reaching struts). Am I missing something? Matt Wolford C 42 Custom From: Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 5:55 PM The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any disclaimers for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving consideration as opposed to something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks like it falls under the outrigger classification. Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out because outriggers are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also. Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance of RRS 60.4? I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht Club, so took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the rules was required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 90 PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world champions in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced before. It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it doesn't make sense. Michael Brown Windburn C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)
Never thought there was any question to that. If you're using a boat-hook, that is obviously illegal, but as far as you can reach, has always been legal, at least to my recollection. ? Bill On Saturday, December 8, 2018 Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List wrote: One last thing on this topic: there are two reported cases indicating that a person leaning out holding a sheet is also not an outrigger. From: Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 12:09 PMTo: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Matthew L. Wolford Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3) Michael: I assume that you sent your note below about there being no exception for reaching struts before I sent my note about Case 97. I don’t know who decides cases arising under the Rules these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing Appeals), but it used to be the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International Sailing Federation). I believe the organization is now called World Sailing or something. When a Case is decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be interpreted unless there is a contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of the pond). I assume that Canada has a similar prescription process. After your note about reaching struts yesterday, I searched RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had been decided under Rule 50.3 about reaching struts being a prohibited outrigger. I found Case 97, which interpreted the term “outrigger” as used in Rule 50.3 to not prohibit “jockey poles” because they redirect the guy, not a sheet or a sail. A jockey pole is the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do not understand your follow-up comment below that you “have not found an exception.” Case 97 clearly interprets the term “outrigger” as not applying to jockey poles (i.e., reaching struts). Am I missing something? Matt Wolford C 42 Custom From: Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 5:55 PMTo: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any disclaimersfor a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving consideration as opposed tosomething that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks like it fallsunder the outrigger classification. Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out because outriggersare not permitted usually draws a blank stare also. Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance ofRRS 60.4? I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht Club, sotook on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the rules wasrequired first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 90PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world championsin the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced before. It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it doesn't make sense. Michael BrownWindburnC 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)
One last thing on this topic: there are two reported cases indicating that a person leaning out holding a sheet is also not an outrigger. From: Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 12:09 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Matthew L. Wolford Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3) Michael: I assume that you sent your note below about there being no exception for reaching struts before I sent my note about Case 97. I don’t know who decides cases arising under the Rules these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing Appeals), but it used to be the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International Sailing Federation). I believe the organization is now called World Sailing or something. When a Case is decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be interpreted unless there is a contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of the pond). I assume that Canada has a similar prescription process. After your note about reaching struts yesterday, I searched RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had been decided under Rule 50.3 about reaching struts being a prohibited outrigger. I found Case 97, which interpreted the term “outrigger” as used in Rule 50.3 to not prohibit “jockey poles” because they redirect the guy, not a sheet or a sail. A jockey pole is the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do not understand your follow-up comment below that you “have not found an exception.” Case 97 clearly interprets the term “outrigger” as not applying to jockey poles (i.e., reaching struts). Am I missing something? Matt Wolford C 42 Custom From: Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 5:55 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any disclaimers for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving consideration as opposed to something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks like it falls under the outrigger classification. Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out because outriggers are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also. Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance of RRS 60.4? I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht Club, so took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the rules was required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 90 PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world champions in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced before. It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it doesn't make sense. Michael Brown Windburn C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)
Michael: I assume that you sent your note below about there being no exception for reaching struts before I sent my note about Case 97. I don’t know who decides cases arising under the Rules these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing Appeals), but it used to be the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International Sailing Federation). I believe the organization is now called World Sailing or something. When a Case is decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be interpreted unless there is a contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of the pond). I assume that Canada has a similar prescription process. After your note about reaching struts yesterday, I searched RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had been decided under Rule 50.3 about reaching struts being a prohibited outrigger. I found Case 97, which interpreted the term “outrigger” as used in Rule 50.3 to not prohibit “jockey poles” because they redirect the guy, not a sheet or a sail. A jockey pole is the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do not understand your follow-up comment below that you “have not found an exception.” Case 97 clearly interprets the term “outrigger” as not applying to jockey poles (i.e., reaching struts). Am I missing something? Matt Wolford C 42 Custom From: Michael Brown via CnC-List Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 5:55 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Michael Brown Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any disclaimers for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving consideration as opposed to something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks like it falls under the outrigger classification. Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out because outriggers are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also. Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance of RRS 60.4? I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht Club, so took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the rules was required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 90 PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world champions in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced before. It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it doesn't make sense. Michael Brown Windburn C 30-1 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
