Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Francois,

The "correct" method isn't that much more labor intensive.  You're probably
going to have to glass in a platform for the linear drive and one for a
rudder position sensor.  You can tie off a line to the bail on the rudder
stalk and then lower it, even while in the water.  Pull the support line to
the opposite site of the tube so that it doesn't get cut while cutting the
rudder tube.  To ensure alignment, and reduce the effects of expansion,
compression, and torque, I would glass in supports that bridge the gap
prior to cutting the tube.

You may have already seem pictures but here's a link.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8pEh5lnvP1yZU1hczd0QlNEOWc

The other advantage of the under deck install is that you don't loose
any/much of the storage area in the aft-port lazarette.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD
On Jun 1, 2016 10:46 AM, "Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List" <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi Chuck,
>
> How about making a custom tiller arm that fits into the emergency tiller
> fitting above the radial drive? I saw that done online and thought that was
> rather clever.  I've also been mulling this over for a couple years now and
> that's the best "easy" solution I saw.
>
>
> I have a similar situation where I would prefer a linear drive on my 34+
> and for me there's no "Below deck" option as the radial drive sits over the
> cockpit floor under a cover in the pass through to the open stern swim
> ladder. The "correct" way involves dropping the rudder, cutting the tube
> below decks, slipping a tiller through, then custom glassing proper
> supports and shelving.. That's a pretty labor intensive project..
>
>
> -Francois Rivard
> 1990 34+ "Take Five"
> Lake Lanier, GA
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

Hi David, 

>From looking at the pictures on the 37+ it indeed looked like a factory 
setup.  I might just do it like that when the boat is on the hard for a 
bottom job / rig inspection in a year or 2. 

 I'd love to see the pictures on yours. 

PS: The pole is "Peachy" thanks for asking. I was able to free-up one jaw 
and ended-up replacing the other which I bought new old stock for a 
fraction of the price... 


-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
lake Lanier, GA






Message: 2
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 09:48:52 -0700
From: "David Blair" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
Message-ID: <018801d1bc25$7c286910$74793b30$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi J-F.  Looking at your note. My 34+ has a nice shelf in the port locker
and the lever arm about3-4" below the deck level and radial drive. The 
glass
work looks like factory. I have a couple of pics somewhere if you are
interested.  By the way, did you ever get that spinnaker pole working? 
Ciao
Regards


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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[S Thomas via CnC-List]

I am looking at doing a similar install on my 36. 
The T shaped cockpit sure limits the room down there. 
Been looking online for a suitable (2 piece) tiller arm, but am coming around 
to the conclusion that I will have to make one. 
I am thinking that a 1 inch thick piece of aluminum might do it, or maybe a 
diesel engine piston rod, if I could find one the right size. I don't know 
where to get a piece of bronze that big, and the price would be probably be 
ridiculous anyway. 
Changing the idler plate on the steering was very cramped, especially doing the 
cables on the radius wheel.  

In retrospect I think that I would have liked a 35 better just for the reason 
of room to work below the cockpit. 
I don't see any way to get at the exhaust hose to through hull connection at 
all. 

Steve Thomas
C&C 36 (1980)
Merritt Island, FL

C&C27 MKIII (1978)
Port Stanley, ON
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List 
  To: csgilchr...@comcast.net 
  Cc: Jean-Francois J Rivard ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 10:45
  Subject: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38


  Hi Chuck,

  How about making a custom tiller arm that fits into the emergency tiller 
fitting above the radial drive? I saw that done online and thought that was 
rather clever.  I've also been mulling this over for a couple years now and 
that's the best "easy" solution I saw. 


  I have a similar situation where I would prefer a linear drive on my 34+ and 
for me there's no "Below deck" option as the radial drive sits over the cockpit 
floor under a cover in the pass through to the open stern swim ladder. The 
"correct" way involves dropping the rudder, cutting the tube below decks, 
slipping a tiller through, then custom glassing proper supports and shelving.. 
That's a pretty labor intensive project..  


  -Francois Rivard
  1990 34+ "Take Five"
  Lake Lanier, GA






--


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  This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!
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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[David Blair via CnC-List]

Hi J-F.  Looking at your note. My 34+ has a nice shelf in the port locker
and the lever arm about3-4" below the deck level and radial drive. The glass
work looks like factory. I have a couple of pics somewhere if you are
interested.  By the way, did you ever get that spinnaker pole working?  Ciao

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 7:45 AM
To: csgilchr...@comcast.net
Cc: Jean-Francois J Rivard; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

 

Hi Chuck,

How about making a custom tiller arm that fits into the emergency tiller
fitting above the radial drive? I saw that done online and thought that was
rather clever.  I've also been mulling this over for a couple years now and
that's the best "easy" solution I saw. 


I have a similar situation where I would prefer a linear drive on my 34+ and
for me there's no "Below deck" option as the radial drive sits over the
cockpit floor under a cover in the pass through to the open stern swim
ladder. The "correct" way involves dropping the rudder, cutting the tube
below decks, slipping a tiller through, then custom glassing proper supports
and shelving.. That's a pretty labor intensive project..  


-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA




___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

Hi Chuck,

How about making a custom tiller arm that fits into the emergency tiller 
fitting above the radial drive? I saw that done online and thought that 
was rather clever.  I've also been mulling this over for a couple years 
now and that's the best "easy" solution I saw. 


I have a similar situation where I would prefer a linear drive on my 34+ 
and for me there's no "Below deck" option as the radial drive sits over 
the cockpit floor under a cover in the pass through to the open stern swim 
ladder. The "correct" way involves dropping the rudder, cutting the tube 
below decks, slipping a tiller through, then custom glassing proper 
supports and shelving.. That's a pretty labor intensive project.. 


-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA




___

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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

I did see them.  That's one crowded space!
Chuck

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 31, 2016, at 2:16 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yup.  Did you look at the photos I posted on my web server?
> 
> — Fred
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
> 
>> On May 31, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Fred,
>> I’m assuming that the main issue is there is insufficient room above or 
>> below the hub of the radial to affix a tiller arm, correct?
>> Chuck
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

I think the only complaints about the original LF38 fuel tank is the fact that 
it was built too thin (0.090 inches--even the mfgr's std is now thicker) and 
the difficulty of replacement.  However, if it was made thicker to begin with 
no one would be replacing them between 20 and 30 years of age.

I couldn't do the cruising I have ahead of me with only 16 gallons.  In fact, 
I've ripped out my holding tank and replaced it with a 19-gallon secondary fuel 
tank.  So, now I have 51 gallons of diesel.

Bob Boyer
S/V Rainy Days (1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230)
Blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
Email: dainyr...@icloud.com
Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)

> On May 31, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Patrick Davin via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yes but if your LF38 has no fuel tank under the radial drive, as on mine, 
> then there is room for a tiller arm I believe. A prior owner removed the 
> original tank and installed a 16g one in the bottom of the stbd lazarette. 
> Eventually I may need more fuel capacity and might have to reconsider the 
> below steering spot, but given how many people complain about that fuel tank 
> I think it's a blessing to have it gone from there. 
> 
> Next year I may consider a below decks autopilot, so it's nice to have more 
> options. Since I recently replaced the Edson radial drive while dropping the 
> rudder, I've been up close down there quite a bit ( 
> https://svviolethour.com/2016/05/03/this-years-haul-out-dropping-the-rudder/ 
> ). There's about 3-4" of exposed rudder stock below the radial drive, with a 
> 1/4" keyway that entire length. However since the radial drive is concave 
> downwards, a tiller arm wouldn't be able to use all of that height-wise - 
> maybe only 1-2". I *think* it would be enough, but the angles would still be 
> tricky. 
> 
> While researching the radial drive I came across this post where a Catalina 
> owner had his Edson radial drive shatter while sailing: 
> https://www.catalina36.org/forum/technical-discussion/radial-disk-shattered
> He didn't have an autopilot on it, but was missing the two outer screws which 
> help align the circumference of the disk (maybe contributed, maybe not). 
> 
> Bob's tiller arm is mounted to the fwd rudder stop platform of the radial 
> drive (there's one on each end, the aft one has the rudder stop). That seems 
> like a better place than randomly drilling through the middle (disc portion) 
> of the drive - at least it's designed to take some shock loads. 
> 
> Other threads on this: 
> http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/55443-autopilot-drive-mounting-question.html
> http://themarineinstallersrant.blogspot.com/2010/06/you-cant-always-get-what-you-want-and.html
> 
> -Patrick
> 1984 C&C LF38
> Seattle, WA
> 
>> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:18 AM,  wrote:
>> From: Frederick G Street 
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> Cc: 
>> Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 12:18:07 -0500
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
>> Chuck and all — the steering configuration belowdecks on the Landfall 38s 
>> cannot support a tiller arm.  The quadrant is directly below the cockpit 
>> sole, and directly above the fuel tank.  There simply is no room for 
>> anything on the rudder post.  Wal Bryant got a good photo of this area when 
>> he redid his steering system; I’ve taken the liberty (thanks, Wal!) of 
>> reposting one of his photos on my web server at 
>> www.postaudio.net/webserver/LF38steering.jpg.  Looking past the smiley face 
>> that Wal spray-painted on his new fuel tank, you can see just how tight 
>> everything is back there.
>> 
>> In virtually all of the autopilot installations I’ve seen where the drive is 
>> attached directly to the quadrant, the attachment has been strengthened with 
>> metal plates on one or both sides of the quadrant wheel; this includes Bob 
>> Boyer’s setup, which he emailed me photos of.  Bob, I hope it’s okay for me 
>> to take the liberty again of posting one of these photos at 
>> http://www.postaudio.net/webserver/LF38steering2.jpg.
>> 
>> And Chuck, yes I have been involved in using Octopus hydraulic linear drives 
>> in autopilot installations; I like their tough dependability and strength, 
>> and the fact that they only have a few moving parts.  One of their downsides 
>> in limited spaces, though, is the fact that the actuator rod sticks out the 
>> back of the drive a fair amount when the drive is at the short limit of 
>> travel; this can cause issues with structure nearby, limiting where and how 
>> you can mount the drive.
>> 
>> In any case, there simply isn’t a good spot (really, AN

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Yes but if your LF38 has no fuel tank under the radial drive, as on mine,
then there is room for a tiller arm I believe. A prior owner removed the
original tank and installed a 16g one in the bottom of the stbd lazarette.
Eventually I may need more fuel capacity and might have to reconsider the
below steering spot, but given how many people complain about that fuel
tank I think it's a blessing to have it gone from there.

Next year I may consider a below decks autopilot, so it's nice to have more
options. Since I recently replaced the Edson radial drive while dropping
the rudder, I've been up close down there quite a bit (
https://svviolethour.com/2016/05/03/this-years-haul-out-dropping-the-rudder/
). There's about 3-4" of exposed rudder stock below the radial drive, with
a 1/4" keyway that entire length. However since the radial drive is concave
downwards, a tiller arm wouldn't be able to use all of that height-wise -
maybe only 1-2". I *think* it would be enough, but the angles would still
be tricky.

While researching the radial drive I came across this post where a Catalina
owner had his Edson radial drive shatter while sailing:
https://www.catalina36.org/forum/technical-discussion/radial-disk-shattered
He didn't have an autopilot on it, but was missing the two outer screws
which help align the circumference of the disk (maybe contributed, maybe
not).

Bob's tiller arm is mounted to the fwd rudder stop platform of the radial
drive (there's one on each end, the aft one has the rudder stop). That
seems like a better place than randomly drilling through the middle (disc
portion) of the drive - at least it's designed to take some shock loads.

Other threads on this:
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/55443-autopilot-drive-mounting-question.html
http://themarineinstallersrant.blogspot.com/2010/06/you-cant-always-get-what-you-want-and.html

-Patrick
1984 C&C LF38
Seattle, WA

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:18 AM,  wrote:

> From: Frederick G Street 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 12:18:07 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
> Chuck and all — the steering configuration belowdecks on the Landfall 38s
> cannot support a tiller arm.  The quadrant is directly below the cockpit
> sole, and directly above the fuel tank.  There simply is no room for
> anything on the rudder post.  Wal Bryant got a good photo of this area when
> he redid his steering system; I’ve taken the liberty (thanks, Wal!) of
> reposting one of his photos on my web server at
> www.postaudio.net/webserver/LF38steering.jpg.  Looking past the smiley
> face that Wal spray-painted on his new fuel tank, you can see just how
> tight everything is back there.
>
> In virtually all of the autopilot installations I’ve seen where the drive
> is attached directly to the quadrant, the attachment has been strengthened
> with metal plates on one or both sides of the quadrant wheel; this includes
> Bob Boyer’s setup, which he emailed me photos of.  Bob, I hope it’s okay
> for me to take the liberty again of posting one of these photos at
> http://www.postaudio.net/webserver/LF38steering2.jpg.
>
> And Chuck, yes I have been involved in using Octopus hydraulic linear
> drives in autopilot installations; I like their tough dependability and
> strength, and the fact that they only have a few moving parts.  One of
> their downsides in limited spaces, though, is the fact that the actuator
> rod sticks out the back of the drive a fair amount when the drive is at the
> short limit of travel; this can cause issues with structure nearby,
> limiting where and how you can mount the drive.
>
> In any case, there simply isn’t a good spot (really, *ANY* spot) to mount
> a tiller arm on the LF38.
>
> — Fred
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>
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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Yup.  Did you look at the photos I posted on my web server?

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On May 31, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Fred,
> I’m assuming that the main issue is there is insufficient room above or below 
> the hub of the radial to affix a tiller arm, correct?
> Chuck

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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

It “looks" like my quadrant is anodized black aluminum—not bronze.  Small 
plates are used on each side of the aluminum quadrant to reinforce the 
attachment point.  (I say “looks” because I can’t even get close to it from my 
quarterberth.  It must have been a skinny guy that did my installation!)

Bob



> On May 31, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Bob (and other LF 38 folks),
> As I don’t have immediate access to Edson’s steering parts data base, can you 
> tell me if the Landfall 38 uses a radial drive wheel (full circle) or 
> quadrant (like a slice of pizza) shaped rudder to cable attachment?  Two 
> somewhat different animals that basically do the same thing, however, Edson’s 
> quadrants are bronze while the radial drive wheels are aluminum.  In 
> autopilot tiller arm installations that are “challenging” due to available 
> space,   there are a few nifty methods of reinforcing a quadrant (the bronze 
> thing) using 2 transverse pieces of ¼”x 1” wide stainless that would set in 
> the gap inside the triangular opening in the quadrant, one above and one 
> below the bronze webbing that keeps the quadrant from twisting.   The steel 
> pieces would bolt to that webbing.  The linear drive ram would attach to that 
> piece of steel providing a contact point at around 8” or so from the rudder 
> post as per Raymarine’s instructions.
>  
> Radial drives are harder to properly re-inforce at a single contact point, 
> partially due to the thin metal and also because the radial is dished and 
> won’t be at 90 degrees to the angle of the rudderpost (and as such with the 
> throw of the ram).   They also have reinforcing ribs designed to bear the 
> loads at the circumference.   However, if a single point attachment on a 
> radial drive is the LAST RESORT, you could cut two 2” “donuts” from aluminum 
> that would sit above and below the radial (taking care to not foul the take 
> up eyes and cables), and either weld the donuts in place (preferable) or bond 
> them using epoxy to the radial prior to drilling the radial for the ram 
> mounting bolt.  In this manner, you’re spreading the load of the attachment 
> pin where it passes through the radial, plus you are giving the radial a bit 
> of lateral structure when the ram is fixed to a single post that sits up from 
> its surface.
>  
> The reason most tiller arm installations are best done with a tiller arm with 
> a hollow channel that accepts the rose joint (ball joint) end of the ram 
> INSIDE the tiller arm is to support the forces placed on the arm by a 
> structure both above and below the ram.  If torque is applied to an pin (or 
> bolt) that sits 90 degrees from a horizontal platform (radial or otherwise), 
> the entire load is being borne by the single attachment point below the joint.
> Perhaps the structure you’ve built to support the ram is sufficiently rigid 
> and in line with your “quadrant” to prevent any twisting motion in a seaway, 
> but I’ve seen plenty of bent or broken tiller arm pins (and even a few 
> twisted tiller arms), where there was so much force applied by the ram to a 
> single po.int attachment that the system failed or even worse, jammed.  If 
> enough force is applied, a bronze tiller arm (or quadrant) will initially 
> bend and then tear.  An aluminum radial drive will simply fracture and break. 
>  Neither is ideal but a broken radial drive wheel could render the boat 
> unsteerable or at the very least, send you scrambling for the emergency 
> tiller.  And remember, this wouldn’t happen when the conditions are nice and 
> smooth with 2’ seas and a mild breeze.
> It would happen when the winds were blowing 30+ and you’re getting green 
> water over the foredeck…
>  
> As much as I dislike wheel pilots, even if my boat was larger than the 
> recommended size for the pilot,  it would be safer to use a wheel pilot and 
> have it disengage when the steering loads became too great than to simply 
> bolt the ram to a radial drive wheel and risk the drive wheel cracking when 
> the loads became more severe.  
> At Edson, I never liked using the words “steering” and “failure” in the same 
> sentence…
> Chuck Gilchrest
> S/V Half Magic
> 1983 LF 35
> Padanaram, MA
>   <>
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] On Behalf Of Persuasi  on37 via 
> CnC-List 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:19 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc: Persuasion37 mailto:persuasio...@gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
>  
> Make that 2 data points.  That is how mine is attached. I think it was 
> installed in ‘98.  Two trips to the Bahamas (one PO) no iss

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Fred,

I’m assuming that the main issue is there is insufficient room above or below 
the hub of the radial to affix a tiller arm, correct?

Chuck

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G 
Street via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 1:59 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Frederick G Street 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

 

Chuck — sorry for the bad nomenclature; I use “quadrant” interchangeably (and 
erroneously) to cover both quadrants and radial drives.  The LF38 (mine, at 
least, and I expect most others) has an aluminum radial drive.

 

— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

 

On May 31, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

Bob (and other LF 38 folks),

As I don’t have immediate access to Edson’s steering parts data base, can you 
tell me if the Landfall 38 uses a radial drive wheel (full circle) or quadrant 
(like a slice of pizza) shaped rudder to cable attachment?  Two somewhat 
different animals that basically do the same thing, however, Edson’s quadrants 
are bronze while the radial drive wheels are aluminum.  In autopilot tiller arm 
installations that are “challenging” due to available space,   there are a few 
nifty methods of reinforcing a quadrant (the bronze thing) using 2 transverse 
pieces of ¼”x 1” wide stainless that would set in the gap inside the triangular 
opening in the quadrant, one above and one below the bronze webbing that keeps 
the quadrant from twisting.   The steel pieces would bolt to that webbing.  The 
linear drive ram would attach to that piece of steel providing a contact point 
at around 8” or so from the rudder post as per Raymarine’s instructions.

 

Radial drives are harder to properly re-inforce at a single contact point, 
partially due to the thin metal and also because the radial is dished and won’t 
be at 90 degrees to the angle of the rudderpost (and as such with the throw of 
the ram).   They also have reinforcing ribs designed to bear the loads at the 
circumference.   However, if a single point attachment on a radial drive is the 
LAST RESORT, you could cut two 2” “donuts” from aluminum that would sit above 
and below the radial (taking care to not foul the take up eyes and cables), and 
either weld the donuts in place (preferable) or bond them using epoxy to the 
radial prior to drilling the radial for the ram mounting bolt.  In this manner, 
you’re spreading the load of the attachment pin where it passes through the 
radial, plus you are giving the radial a bit of lateral structure when the ram 
is fixed to a single post that sits up from its surface.

 

The reason most tiller arm installations are best done with a tiller arm with a 
hollow channel that accepts the rose joint (ball joint) end of the ram INSIDE 
the tiller arm is to support the forces placed on the arm by a structure both 
above and below the ram.  If torque is applied to an pin (or bolt) that sits 90 
degrees from a horizontal platform (radial or otherwise), the entire load is 
being borne by the single attachment point below the joint.

Perhaps the structure you’ve built to support the ram is sufficiently rigid and 
in line with your “quadrant” to prevent any twisting motion in a seaway, but 
I’ve seen plenty of bent or broken tiller arm pins (and even a few twisted 
tiller arms), where there was so much force applied by the ram to a single 
po.int attachment that the system failed or even worse, jammed.  If enough 
force is applied, a bronze tiller arm (or quadrant) will initially bend and 
then tear.  An aluminum radial drive will simply fracture and break.  Neither 
is ideal but a broken radial drive wheel could render the boat unsteerable or 
at the very least, send you scrambling for the emergency tiller.  And remember, 
this wouldn’t happen when the conditions are nice and smooth with 2’ seas and a 
mild breeze.

It would happen when the winds were blowing 30+ and you’re getting green water 
over the foredeck…

 

As much as I dislike wheel pilots, even if my boat was larger than the 
recommended size for the pilot,  it would be safer to use a wheel pilot and 
have it disengage when the steering loads became too great than to simply bolt 
the ram to a radial drive wheel and risk the drive wheel cracking when the 
loads became more severe.  

At Edson, I never liked using the words “steering” and “failure” in the same 
sentence…

Chuck Gilchrest

S/V Half Magic

1983 LF 35

Padanaram, MA

 

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Chuck — sorry for the bad nomenclature; I use “quadrant” interchangeably (and 
erroneously) to cover both quadrants and radial drives.  The LF38 (mine, at 
least, and I expect most others) has an aluminum radial drive.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On May 31, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Bob (and other LF 38 folks),
> As I don’t have immediate access to Edson’s steering parts data base, can you 
> tell me if the Landfall 38 uses a radial drive wheel (full circle) or 
> quadrant (like a slice of pizza) shaped rudder to cable attachment?  Two 
> somewhat different animals that basically do the same thing, however, Edson’s 
> quadrants are bronze while the radial drive wheels are aluminum.  In 
> autopilot tiller arm installations that are “challenging” due to available 
> space,   there are a few nifty methods of reinforcing a quadrant (the bronze 
> thing) using 2 transverse pieces of ¼”x 1” wide stainless that would set in 
> the gap inside the triangular opening in the quadrant, one above and one 
> below the bronze webbing that keeps the quadrant from twisting.   The steel 
> pieces would bolt to that webbing.  The linear drive ram would attach to that 
> piece of steel providing a contact point at around 8” or so from the rudder 
> post as per Raymarine’s instructions.
>  
> Radial drives are harder to properly re-inforce at a single contact point, 
> partially due to the thin metal and also because the radial is dished and 
> won’t be at 90 degrees to the angle of the rudderpost (and as such with the 
> throw of the ram).   They also have reinforcing ribs designed to bear the 
> loads at the circumference.   However, if a single point attachment on a 
> radial drive is the LAST RESORT, you could cut two 2” “donuts” from aluminum 
> that would sit above and below the radial (taking care to not foul the take 
> up eyes and cables), and either weld the donuts in place (preferable) or bond 
> them using epoxy to the radial prior to drilling the radial for the ram 
> mounting bolt.  In this manner, you’re spreading the load of the attachment 
> pin where it passes through the radial, plus you are giving the radial a bit 
> of lateral structure when the ram is fixed to a single post that sits up from 
> its surface.
>  
> The reason most tiller arm installations are best done with a tiller arm with 
> a hollow channel that accepts the rose joint (ball joint) end of the ram 
> INSIDE the tiller arm is to support the forces placed on the arm by a 
> structure both above and below the ram.  If torque is applied to an pin (or 
> bolt) that sits 90 degrees from a horizontal platform (radial or otherwise), 
> the entire load is being borne by the single attachment point below the joint.
> Perhaps the structure you’ve built to support the ram is sufficiently rigid 
> and in line with your “quadrant” to prevent any twisting motion in a seaway, 
> but I’ve seen plenty of bent or broken tiller arm pins (and even a few 
> twisted tiller arms), where there was so much force applied by the ram to a 
> single po.int attachment that the system failed or even worse, jammed.  If 
> enough force is applied, a bronze tiller arm (or quadrant) will initially 
> bend and then tear.  An aluminum radial drive will simply fracture and break. 
>  Neither is ideal but a broken radial drive wheel could render the boat 
> unsteerable or at the very least, send you scrambling for the emergency 
> tiller.  And remember, this wouldn’t happen when the conditions are nice and 
> smooth with 2’ seas and a mild breeze.
> It would happen when the winds were blowing 30+ and you’re getting green 
> water over the foredeck…
>  
> As much as I dislike wheel pilots, even if my boat was larger than the 
> recommended size for the pilot,  it would be safer to use a wheel pilot and 
> have it disengage when the steering loads became too great than to simply 
> bolt the ram to a radial drive wheel and risk the drive wheel cracking when 
> the loads became more severe.  
> At Edson, I never liked using the words “steering” and “failure” in the same 
> sentence…
> Chuck Gilchrest
> S/V Half Magic
> 1983 LF 35
> Padanaram, MA

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Bob (and other LF 38 folks),

As I don’t have immediate access to Edson’s steering parts data base, can you 
tell me if the Landfall 38 uses a radial drive wheel (full circle) or quadrant 
(like a slice of pizza) shaped rudder to cable attachment?  Two somewhat 
different animals that basically do the same thing, however, Edson’s quadrants 
are bronze while the radial drive wheels are aluminum.  In autopilot tiller arm 
installations that are “challenging” due to available space,   there are a few 
nifty methods of reinforcing a quadrant (the bronze thing) using 2 transverse 
pieces of ¼”x 1” wide stainless that would set in the gap inside the triangular 
opening in the quadrant, one above and one below the bronze webbing that keeps 
the quadrant from twisting.   The steel pieces would bolt to that webbing.  The 
linear drive ram would attach to that piece of steel providing a contact point 
at around 8” or so from the rudder post as per Raymarine’s instructions.

 

Radial drives are harder to properly re-inforce at a single contact point, 
partially due to the thin metal and also because the radial is dished and won’t 
be at 90 degrees to the angle of the rudderpost (and as such with the throw of 
the ram).   They also have reinforcing ribs designed to bear the loads at the 
circumference.   However, if a single point attachment on a radial drive is the 
LAST RESORT, you could cut two 2” “donuts” from aluminum that would sit above 
and below the radial (taking care to not foul the take up eyes and cables), and 
either weld the donuts in place (preferable) or bond them using epoxy to the 
radial prior to drilling the radial for the ram mounting bolt.  In this manner, 
you’re spreading the load of the attachment pin where it passes through the 
radial, plus you are giving the radial a bit of lateral structure when the ram 
is fixed to a single post that sits up from its surface.

 

The reason most tiller arm installations are best done with a tiller arm with a 
hollow channel that accepts the rose joint (ball joint) end of the ram INSIDE 
the tiller arm is to support the forces placed on the arm by a structure both 
above and below the ram.  If torque is applied to an pin (or bolt) that sits 90 
degrees from a horizontal platform (radial or otherwise), the entire load is 
being borne by the single attachment point below the joint.

Perhaps the structure you’ve built to support the ram is sufficiently rigid and 
in line with your “quadrant” to prevent any twisting motion in a seaway, but 
I’ve seen plenty of bent or broken tiller arm pins (and even a few twisted 
tiller arms), where there was so much force applied by the ram to a single 
po.int attachment that the system failed or even worse, jammed.  If enough 
force is applied, a bronze tiller arm (or quadrant) will initially bend and 
then tear.  An aluminum radial drive will simply fracture and break.  Neither 
is ideal but a broken radial drive wheel could render the boat unsteerable or 
at the very least, send you scrambling for the emergency tiller.  And remember, 
this wouldn’t happen when the conditions are nice and smooth with 2’ seas and a 
mild breeze.

It would happen when the winds were blowing 30+ and you’re getting green water 
over the foredeck…

 

As much as I dislike wheel pilots, even if my boat was larger than the 
recommended size for the pilot,  it would be safer to use a wheel pilot and 
have it disengage when the steering loads became too great than to simply bolt 
the ram to a radial drive wheel and risk the drive wheel cracking when the 
loads became more severe.  

At Edson, I never liked using the words “steering” and “failure” in the same 
sentence…

Chuck Gilchrest

S/V Half Magic

1983 LF 35

Padanaram, MA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Persuasi  
on37 via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:19 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Persuasion37 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

 

Make that 2 data points.  That is how mine is attached. I think it was 
installed in ‘98.  Two trips to the Bahamas (one PO) no issues with quadrant.  
I would be curious how it would be installed otherwise.

 

Miketi
S/V Persuasion
C&C 37 Keel/CB
Long Sault

 

From:  <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Robert Boyer via CnC-List 

Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:12 PM

To:  <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> cnc-list@cnc-list.com 

Cc:  <mailto:dainyr...@icloud.com> Robert Boyer 

Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

 

Mine is attached to the quadrant and it has been working fine for about 10 
years now.   I realize that is only one data point.  The attachment point can 
only see the load that is resisted by the rudder, which at most times is small.

Bob Boyer 

s/v Rainy Days

C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)

Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)

blog:  <http://dainyrays.blogspot.com> dainyrays.blogspot.com

email:  <mailto:dainyr.

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Chuck and all — the steering configuration belowdecks on the Landfall 38s 
cannot support a tiller arm.  The quadrant is directly below the cockpit sole, 
and directly above the fuel tank.  There simply is no room for anything on the 
rudder post.  Wal Bryant got a good photo of this area when he redid his 
steering system; I’ve taken the liberty (thanks, Wal!) of reposting one of his 
photos on my web server at www.postaudio.net/webserver/LF38steering.jpg.  
Looking past the smiley face that Wal spray-painted on his new fuel tank, you 
can see just how tight everything is back there.

In virtually all of the autopilot installations I’ve seen where the drive is 
attached directly to the quadrant, the attachment has been strengthened with 
metal plates on one or both sides of the quadrant wheel; this includes Bob 
Boyer’s setup, which he emailed me photos of.  Bob, I hope it’s okay for me to 
take the liberty again of posting one of these photos at 
http://www.postaudio.net/webserver/LF38steering2.jpg.

And Chuck, yes I have been involved in using Octopus hydraulic linear drives in 
autopilot installations; I like their tough dependability and strength, and the 
fact that they only have a few moving parts.  One of their downsides in limited 
spaces, though, is the fact that the actuator rod sticks out the back of the 
drive a fair amount when the drive is at the short limit of travel; this can 
cause issues with structure nearby, limiting where and how you can mount the 
drive.

In any case, there simply isn’t a good spot (really, ANY spot) to mount a 
tiller arm on the LF38.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On May 31, 2016, at 9:50 AM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> David,
> You are spot on with that assessment.  Aluminum Radial drive wheels in 
> particular are cast so that the steering loads are carried tangentially along 
> the outer edge of the wheel (in the groove).  Drilling a hole in the casting 
> 90 degrees from the designed load plane and through bolting an attachment 
> point for a linear drive wheel will likely result in the cast wheel 
> fracturing under serious loads.  If the radial was to break, you would lose 
> both your autopilot AND the cable steering.
> I have seen several autopilot installations (not on LF 38 mind you) in 
> confined spaces using an Octopus drive and 8" tiller arms.  Perhaps that 
> could be an option.  Maybe Fred may have experience with those regarding  
> compatibility with different control heads...
> Chuck Gilchrest 
> S/V Half Magic
> 1983 LF 35
> Padanaram MA
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On May 31, 2016, at 9:59 AM, David via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
>> It is my understanding that attaching a ram directly to a quadrant is not 
>> recommended by Edson etc.   Quadrants are not engineered for those point 
>> loads.
>> 
>> Chuck?
>> 
>> David F. Risch
>> 1981 40-2
>> (401) 419-4650 (cell)
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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Dave Godwin via CnC-List]

Also, too: I realized that the pictures do not show it but the important point 
is that the drive arm is attached to a bronze tiller arm 
<http://www.edsonmarine.com/marinestore/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=233> 
from Edson. As I seem to recall, the arm is secured by a 1/4” S.S. key slotted 
into the rudder shaft.

Best,
Dave Godwin
1982 C&C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin’s Overdue Refit <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/>
> On May 31, 2016, at 12:31 PM, Dave Godwin  wrote:
> 
> Mike,
> 
> I did mine which is the same as your boat but not a LF38, this way 
> <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/2014/02/autopilots-from-wheel-to-below-deck.html>.
> 
> Best
> Dave Godwin
> 1982 C&C 37 - Ronin
> Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
> Ronin’s Overdue Refit <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/>
>> On May 31, 2016, at 12:19 PM, Persuasion37 via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Make that 2 data points.  That is how mine is attached. I think it was 
>> installed in ‘98.  Two trips to the Bahamas (one PO) no issues with 
>> quadrant.  I would be curious how it would be installed otherwise.
>>  
>> Mike
>> S/V Persuasion
>> C&C 37 Keel/CB
>> Long Sault
>>  
>> From: Robert Boyer via CnC-List <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:12 PM
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>> Cc: Robert Boyer <mailto:dainyr...@icloud.com>
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
>>  
>> Mine is attached to the quadrant and it has been working fine for about 10 
>> years now.   I realize that is only one data point.  The attachment point 
>> can only see the load that is resisted by the rudder, which at most times is 
>> small.
>> 
>> Bob Boyer 
>> s/v Rainy Days
>> C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
>> Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)
>> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com <http://dainyrays.blogspot.com/>
>> email: dainyr...@icloud.com <mailto:dainyr...@icloud.com>
>> 
>> On May 31, 2016, at 9:59 AM, David via CnC-List > <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>> It is my understanding that attaching a ram directly to a quadrant is not 
>>> recommended by Edson etc.   Quadrants are not engineered for those point 
>>> loads.
>>> 
>>> Chuck?
>>> 
>>> David F. Risch
>>> 1981 40-2
>>> (401) 419-4650 (cell)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 20:36:36 -0500
>>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
>>> From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>>> CC: f...@postaudio.net <mailto:f...@postaudio.net>
>>> 
>>> Jason — there is absolutely no room for a tiller arm on the LF38; you need 
>>> to attach the ram directly to the quadrant, at the proper distance from the 
>>> center of the rudder post for the drive you got.  One option is to orient 
>>> the ram forward to aft, on the port side of the rudder post (access via the 
>>> port quarter berth access hatch).  Otherwise, about your only other option 
>>> is to have the ram oriented athwartship, forward of the rudder post, with 
>>> the access through the cockpit locker. 
>>>  
>>> There are no easy steering system jobs on the LF38.
>>>  
>>> — Fred
>>> 
>>> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
>>> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>>>  
>>>> On May 29, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List 
>>>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good 
>>>> again.  Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I 
>>>> have purchased an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to 
>>>> figure out how to install it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is 
>>>> very little room at the best of times and it appears that when they made 
>>>> the LF38, autohelm was never even a consideration.
>>>>  
>>>> I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that have 
>>>> successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to 
>>>> pass on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated.
>>>>  
>>>> Life is good on a boat, even when you are fixing her.

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Dave Godwin via CnC-List]

Mike,

I did mine which is the same as your boat but not a LF38, this way 
<http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/2014/02/autopilots-from-wheel-to-below-deck.html>.

Best
Dave Godwin
1982 C&C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin’s Overdue Refit <http://roninrebuild.blogspot.com/>
> On May 31, 2016, at 12:19 PM, Persuasion37 via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Make that 2 data points.  That is how mine is attached. I think it was 
> installed in ‘98.  Two trips to the Bahamas (one PO) no issues with quadrant. 
>  I would be curious how it would be installed otherwise.
>  
> Mike
> S/V Persuasion
> C&C 37 Keel/CB
> Long Sault
>  
> From: Robert Boyer via CnC-List <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:12 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Cc: Robert Boyer <mailto:dainyr...@icloud.com>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
>  
> Mine is attached to the quadrant and it has been working fine for about 10 
> years now.   I realize that is only one data point.  The attachment point can 
> only see the load that is resisted by the rudder, which at most times is 
> small.
> 
> Bob Boyer 
> s/v Rainy Days
> C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
> Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com <http://dainyrays.blogspot.com/>
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com <mailto:dainyr...@icloud.com>
> 
> On May 31, 2016, at 9:59 AM, David via CnC-List  <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> 
>> It is my understanding that attaching a ram directly to a quadrant is not 
>> recommended by Edson etc.   Quadrants are not engineered for those point 
>> loads.
>> 
>> Chuck?
>> 
>> David F. Risch
>> 1981 40-2
>> (401) 419-4650 (cell)
>> 
>> 
>> Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 20:36:36 -0500
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
>> From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
>> CC: f...@postaudio.net <mailto:f...@postaudio.net>
>> 
>> Jason — there is absolutely no room for a tiller arm on the LF38; you need 
>> to attach the ram directly to the quadrant, at the proper distance from the 
>> center of the rudder post for the drive you got.  One option is to orient 
>> the ram forward to aft, on the port side of the rudder post (access via the 
>> port quarter berth access hatch).  Otherwise, about your only other option 
>> is to have the ram oriented athwartship, forward of the rudder post, with 
>> the access through the cockpit locker. 
>>  
>> There are no easy steering system jobs on the LF38.
>>  
>> — Fred
>> 
>> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
>> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>>  
>>> On May 29, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List 
>>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good 
>>> again.  Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I have 
>>> purchased an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to figure out 
>>> how to install it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is very little 
>>> room at the best of times and it appears that when they made the LF38, 
>>> autohelm was never even a consideration.
>>>  
>>> I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that have 
>>> successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to 
>>> pass on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated.
>>>  
>>> Life is good on a boat, even when you are fixing her.
>>>  
>>> Good sailing and hope to talk soon.
>>>  
>>> Jason
>>> Starship LF38
>>> Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> ___ This list is supported by 
>> the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help 
>> us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>> 
>>  
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
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>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Persuasion37 via CnC-List]

Make that 2 data points.  That is how mine is attached. I think it was 
installed in ‘98.  Two trips to the Bahamas (one PO) no issues with quadrant.  
I would be curious how it would be installed otherwise.

Mike
S/V Persuasion
C&C 37 Keel/CB
Long Sault

From: Robert Boyer via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:12 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Robert Boyer 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

Mine is attached to the quadrant and it has been working fine for about 10 
years now.   I realize that is only one data point.  The attachment point can 
only see the load that is resisted by the rudder, which at most times is small.

Bob Boyer 
s/v Rainy Days
C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
email: dainyr...@icloud.com

On May 31, 2016, at 9:59 AM, David via CnC-List  wrote:


  It is my understanding that attaching a ram directly to a quadrant is not 
recommended by Edson etc.   Quadrants are not engineered for those point loads.

  Chuck?

  David F. Risch
  1981 40-2
  (401) 419-4650 (cell)




--
  Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 20:36:36 -0500
  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
  Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
  From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
  CC: f...@postaudio.net

  Jason — there is absolutely no room for a tiller arm on the LF38; you need to 
attach the ram directly to the quadrant, at the proper distance from the center 
of the rudder post for the drive you got.  One option is to orient the ram 
forward to aft, on the port side of the rudder post (access via the port 
quarter berth access hatch).  Otherwise, about your only other option is to 
have the ram oriented athwartship, forward of the rudder post, with the access 
through the cockpit locker. 

  There are no easy steering system jobs on the LF38.

  — Fred


  Fred Street -- Minneapolis
  S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

On May 29, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good 
again.  Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I have 
purchased an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to figure out how 
to install it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is very little room at 
the best of times and it appears that when they made the LF38, autohelm was 
never even a consideration.

I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that have 
successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to pass 
on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated.

Life is good on a boat, even when you are fixing her.

Good sailing and hope to talk soon.

Jason
Starship LF38
Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba


  ___ This list is supported by the 
generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay 
for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

   Virus-free. www.avast.com  

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  This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!




___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

Mine is attached to the quadrant and it has been working fine for about 10 
years now.   I realize that is only one data point.  The attachment point can 
only see the load that is resisted by the rudder, which at most times is small.

Bob Boyer
s/v Rainy Days
C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
email: dainyr...@icloud.com

> On May 31, 2016, at 9:59 AM, David via CnC-List  wrote:
> 
> It is my understanding that attaching a ram directly to a quadrant is not 
> recommended by Edson etc.   Quadrants are not engineered for those point 
> loads.
> 
> Chuck?
> 
> David F. Risch
> 1981 40-2
> (401) 419-4650 (cell)
> 
> 
> Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 20:36:36 -0500
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
> From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> CC: f...@postaudio.net
> 
> Jason — there is absolutely no room for a tiller arm on the LF38; you need to 
> attach the ram directly to the quadrant, at the proper distance from the 
> center of the rudder post for the drive you got.  One option is to orient the 
> ram forward to aft, on the port side of the rudder post (access via the port 
> quarter berth access hatch).  Otherwise, about your only other option is to 
> have the ram oriented athwartship, forward of the rudder post, with the 
> access through the cockpit locker.
> 
> There are no easy steering system jobs on the LF38.
> 
> — Fred
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
> 
> On May 29, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good 
> again.  Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I have 
> purchased an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to figure out 
> how to install it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is very little 
> room at the best of times and it appears that when they made the LF38, 
> autohelm was never even a consideration.
>  
> I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that have 
> successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to 
> pass on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated.
>  
> Life is good on a boat, even when you are fixing her.
>  
> Good sailing and hope to talk soon.
>  
> Jason
> Starship LF38
> Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba
> 
> 
> ___ This list is supported by the 
> generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay 
> for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
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> are greatly appreciated!
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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

David,
You are spot on with that assessment.  Aluminum Radial drive wheels in 
particular are cast so that the steering loads are carried tangentially along 
the outer edge of the wheel (in the groove).  Drilling a hole in the casting 90 
degrees from the designed load plane and through bolting an attachment point 
for a linear drive wheel will likely result in the cast wheel fracturing under 
serious loads.  If the radial was to break, you would lose both your autopilot 
AND the cable steering.
I have seen several autopilot installations (not on LF 38 mind you) in confined 
spaces using an Octopus drive and 8" tiller arms.  Perhaps that could be an 
option.  Maybe Fred may have experience with those regarding  compatibility 
with different control heads...
Chuck Gilchrest 
S/V Half Magic
1983 LF 35
Padanaram MA

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 31, 2016, at 9:59 AM, David via CnC-List  wrote:
> 
> It is my understanding that attaching a ram directly to a quadrant is not 
> recommended by Edson etc.   Quadrants are not engineered for those point 
> loads.
> 
> Chuck?
> 
> David F. Risch
> 1981 40-2
> (401) 419-4650 (cell)
> 
> 
> Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 20:36:36 -0500
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
> From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> CC: f...@postaudio.net
> 
> Jason — there is absolutely no room for a tiller arm on the LF38; you need to 
> attach the ram directly to the quadrant, at the proper distance from the 
> center of the rudder post for the drive you got.  One option is to orient the 
> ram forward to aft, on the port side of the rudder post (access via the port 
> quarter berth access hatch).  Otherwise, about your only other option is to 
> have the ram oriented athwartship, forward of the rudder post, with the 
> access through the cockpit locker.
> 
> There are no easy steering system jobs on the LF38.
> 
> — Fred
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
> 
> On May 29, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good 
> again.  Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I have 
> purchased an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to figure out 
> how to install it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is very little 
> room at the best of times and it appears that when they made the LF38, 
> autohelm was never even a consideration.
>  
> I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that have 
> successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to 
> pass on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated.
>  
> Life is good on a boat, even when you are fixing her.
>  
> Good sailing and hope to talk soon.
>  
> Jason
> Starship LF38
> Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba
> 
> 
> ___ This list is supported by the 
> generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay 
> for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
> 
>   Virus-free. www.avast.com
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[David via CnC-List]

It is my understanding that attaching a ram directly to a quadrant is not 
recommended by Edson etc.   Quadrants are not engineered for those point loads.

Chuck?

David F. Risch
1981 40-2
(401) 419-4650 (cell)


Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 20:36:36 -0500
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
CC: f...@postaudio.net

Jason — there is absolutely no room for a tiller arm on the LF38; you need to 
attach the ram directly to the quadrant, at the proper distance from the center 
of the rudder post for the drive you got.  One option is to orient the ram 
forward to aft, on the port side of the rudder post (access via the port 
quarter berth access hatch).  Otherwise, about your only other option is to 
have the ram oriented athwartship, forward of the rudder post, with the access 
through the cockpit locker.
There are no easy steering system jobs on the LF38.
— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI


On May 29, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List 
 wrote:Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season 
is upon us life is good again.  Life would be even better if I was able to use 
my autohelm.  I have purchased an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am 
trying to figure out how to install it below deck.  As all C&C owners know 
there is very little room at the best of times and it appears that when they 
made the LF38, autohelm was never even a consideration. I was wondering if 
there are any other LF owners out there that have successfully installed a 
linear below deck drive that would be willing to pass on their installation 
process.  Photos would also be appreciated. Life is good on a boat, even when 
you are fixing her. Good sailing and hope to talk soon. JasonStarship LF38Lake 
Winnipeg, Manitoba

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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[svpegasus38]

Jason, I installed a linear Raymarine autopilot in Pegasus. Wasn't easy. I 
can send you pics when I get back to the boat this week.I glassed in a mounting 
plate between the starboard hull and cockpit just fwd and below the manual 
pump. Put the computer on the aft bulkhead of sstarboard q-bearth. Doug 
MountjoysvPegasusLF38 just west of Ballard, WA.




-- Original message--From: Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List Date: Sun, 
May 29, 2016 18:33To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com;Cc: Jason & Amanda 
Ward;Subject:Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38
 Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good again. 
 Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I have purchased 
an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to figure out how to install 
it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is very little room at the best of 
times and it appears that when they made the LF38, autohelm was never even a 
consideration. I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that 
have successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to 
pass on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated. Life is 
good on a boat, even when you are fixing her. Good sailing and hope to talk 
soon. JasonStarship LF38Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba 
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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Bob — I’d be curious to see how they solved the problem of “no space”…   :^)   
Email me photos, too, if you’re sending some out.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On May 30, 2016, at 3:12 AM, Robert Boyer via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I had my boatyard install mine years ago but I'd be glad to pass alongside 
> photos...
> 
> Bob
> 
> Bob Boyer
> s/v Rainy Days
> C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
> Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com 
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

I had my boatyard install mine years ago but I'd be glad to pass alongside 
photos...

Bob

Bob Boyer
s/v Rainy Days
C&C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
Annapolis, MD (presently in Baltimore)
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
email: dainyr...@icloud.com

> On May 29, 2016, at 9:32 PM, Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
>  
> Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good 
> again.  Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I have 
> purchased an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to figure out 
> how to install it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is very little 
> room at the best of times and it appears that when they made the LF38, 
> autohelm was never even a consideration.
>  
> I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that have 
> successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to 
> pass on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated.
>  
> Life is good on a boat, even when you are fixing her.
>  
> Good sailing and hope to talk soon.
>  
> Jason
> Starship LF38
> Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba
>  
> 
>   Virus-free. www.avast.com
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
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Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Richard N. Bush via CnC-List]

 Don't know if its the same, I installed one on my 37...I do have a couple of 
pics, let me know and I'll send offline...thanks

 


Richard

Richard N. Bush  
185 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List 
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Jason & Amanda Ward 
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2016 9:33 pm
Subject: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38



 
Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good again.  
Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I have purchased 
an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to figure out how to install 
it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is very little room at the best of 
times and it appears that when they made the LF38, autohelm was never even a 
consideration.
 
I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that have 
successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to pass 
on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated.
 
Life is good on a boat, even when you are fixing her.
 
Good sailing and hope to talk soon.
 
Jason
Starship LF38
Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba
 





Virus-free. www.avast.com   



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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
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greatly appreciated!

___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Jason — there is absolutely no room for a tiller arm on the LF38; you need to 
attach the ram directly to the quadrant, at the proper distance from the center 
of the rudder post for the drive you got.  One option is to orient the ram 
forward to aft, on the port side of the rudder post (access via the port 
quarter berth access hatch).  Otherwise, about your only other option is to 
have the ram oriented athwartship, forward of the rudder post, with the access 
through the cockpit locker.

There are no easy steering system jobs on the LF38.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On May 29, 2016, at 8:32 PM, Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good 
> again.  Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I have 
> purchased an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to figure out 
> how to install it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is very little 
> room at the best of times and it appears that when they made the LF38, 
> autohelm was never even a consideration.
>  
> I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that have 
> successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to 
> pass on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated.
>  
> Life is good on a boat, even when you are fixing her.
>  
> Good sailing and hope to talk soon.
>  
> Jason
> Starship LF38
> Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba

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Stus-List Installing linear autohelm on LF38

[Jason & Amanda Ward via CnC-List]

Good Day Everyone.  Now that the sailing season is upon us life is good again.  
Life would be even better if I was able to use my autohelm.  I have purchased 
an Raymarine EV200 linear drive unit and am trying to figure out how to install 
it below deck.  As all C&C owners know there is very little room at the best of 
times and it appears that when they made the LF38, autohelm was never even a 
consideration.

I was wondering if there are any other LF owners out there that have 
successfully installed a linear below deck drive that would be willing to pass 
on their installation process.  Photos would also be appreciated.

Life is good on a boat, even when you are fixing her.

Good sailing and hope to talk soon.

Jason
Starship LF38
Lake Winnipeg, Manitoba



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