Re: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef?
Allen how did you determine that 18 degrees is the optimal heel angle for your 30-2? Thanks, Randy - Original Message - From: "allen via CnC-List" To: "cnc-list" Cc: "allen" Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 6:49:03 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef? Lorne, It all depends What kind of sails are you carrying and how new they are. Septima originally came with a North Dacron 130 and main, both racing quality, and a full set of sail controls. We quickly learned that with her beam and big butt that 18 degrees heel was near optimal. We also learned that keeping her on her feet was achievable with the sail controls long before we had to reef the main. With a good mechanical backstay adjuster ( I have the original for sale ) and multipart Cunningham you could flatten the main and take some sag out of the headstay. Voila, back on her feet. We used to race in a shallow bay (6 - 8 feet MLLW ) where the local wind picked up to 18 -20 kts in the early PM. We never reefed, just used sail controls. Later I converted to an Ulmer Tape Drive 140. Sail weighed half of the North 130 and did not stretch. Weight aloft went way down and ability to carry sail as wind increased went way up. However, by then we were on the eastern portion of LI Sound and the winds weren't so much. Big Genoa was great for powering up through the chop. Main still didn't require a reef. Lesson learned early on: Genoa is for power, main is for steerage. Septima's wheel has a leather cover I put there. Seams are placed such that rudder has 4 degrees incidence when seams are TDC (easy to measure when on the hard). Helm's job is to place appropriate seam TDC and communicate "feel" to main trimmer ( on Septima, me using Harkin Windward Car setup. ) If helm starts to load up, I drop the car an inch, if it lightens I raise car an inch, keeping the mainsail trim untouched. Boat is fast, wake is smooth and other, larger boats wonder how you're going so fast. The foils on our boats are symmetrical versions of well tested low speed aircraft shapes and you want to keep the flow attached. The boat will "lift" to windward once you get the feel of her. I now have a new UK 140 tape drive so we'll see how it does. Haven't sailed it yet, but it is the engine so I expect we'll easily get to hull speed. My impressions: 30-2s are initially tender, then stiffen. Keeping the rudder in the water is good. Oh, and surfing down wind is a lot of fun too. We made up for a lot of upwind mistakes by overtaking boats down wind. Best of luck. Allen Miles S/V Septima 30-2 Hampton, VA From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:18 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Lorne Serpa Subject: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef? I've been sailing for about 1.5 years on a 13' hobbie and WW Potter P15. My 30MkII is my 1st real boat of any size and weight. I have not sailed it yet. I'll be heading out for my 1st sail about 1 July. When do you 30MkII owners start reefing above what wind speed? I believe the 30MkII is "tender", but have also read it is pretty "stiff" so I'm not sure what to believe. I'm not a fan of heeling yet, gets me a tid bit nervous, but not as much since taking ASA 101,103/104 last month. I have heard the 30MkII is pretty good carrying a lot of sail in light wind and moves well. I just needs to be reefed earlier than many boats to sail flat. What is considered decent wind for a 30MkII? I fully understand that it is based on skill. In my ASA classes, we put in a reef in at about Beaufort 6/7 in Corpus Christi Bay, TX. The boat was a 35' Benatou. We had a great time with no worries. Will a 30MkII be similar, or very different due to the 5 foot less, less beam, and probably much less ballast? ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef?
I would say that you should reef before you get uneasy (or when your passengers get uneasy (including the most important Admiral )). You will quickly find that too much heel would not help. You would be going sideways,instead of forward. And the only benefit would be that you are uncomfortable. The old good seamanship rule is to do all what is necessary, before it is necessary. Good luck Marek Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network. Original message From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List Date: 2016/06/21 00:19 (GMT-05:00) To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Lorne Serpa Subject: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef? I've been sailing for about 1.5 years on a 13' hobbie and WW Potter P15. My 30MkII is my 1st real boat of any size and weight. I have not sailed it yet. I'll be heading out for my 1st sail about 1 July. When do you 30MkII owners start reefing above what wind speed? I believe the 30MkII is "tender", but have also read it is pretty "stiff" so I'm not sure what to believe. I'm not a fan of heeling yet, gets me a tid bit nervous, but not as much since taking ASA 101,103/104 last month. I have heard the 30MkII is pretty good carrying a lot of sail in light wind and moves well. I just needs to be reefed earlier than many boats to sail flat. What is considered decent wind for a 30MkII? I fully understand that it is based on skill. In my ASA classes, we put in a reef in at about Beaufort 6/7 in Corpus Christi Bay, TX. The boat was a 35' Benatou. We had a great time with no worries. Will a 30MkII be similar, or very different due to the 5 foot less, less beam, and probably much less ballast? ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef?
Lorne, It all depends What kind of sails are you carrying and how new they are. Septima originally came with a North Dacron 130 and main, both racing quality, and a full set of sail controls. We quickly learned that with her beam and big butt that 18 degrees heel was near optimal. We also learned that keeping her on her feet was achievable with the sail controls long before we had to reef the main. With a good mechanical backstay adjuster ( I have the original for sale ) and multipart Cunningham you could flatten the main and take some sag out of the headstay. Voila, back on her feet. We used to race in a shallow bay (6 - 8 feet MLLW ) where the local wind picked up to 18 -20 kts in the early PM. We never reefed, just used sail controls. Later I converted to an Ulmer Tape Drive 140. Sail weighed half of the North 130 and did not stretch. Weight aloft went way down and ability to carry sail as wind increased went way up. However, by then we were on the eastern portion of LI Sound and the winds weren't so much. Big Genoa was great for powering up through the chop. Main still didn't require a reef. Lesson learned early on: Genoa is for power, main is for steerage. Septima's wheel has a leather cover I put there. Seams are placed such that rudder has 4 degrees incidence when seams are TDC (easy to measure when on the hard). Helm's job is to place appropriate seam TDC and communicate "feel" to main trimmer ( on Septima, me using Harkin Windward Car setup. ) If helm starts to load up, I drop the car an inch, if it lightens I raise car an inch, keeping the mainsail trim untouched. Boat is fast, wake is smooth and other, larger boats wonder how you're going so fast. The foils on our boats are symmetrical versions of well tested low speed aircraft shapes and you want to keep the flow attached. The boat will "lift" to windward once you get the feel of her. I now have a new UK 140 tape drive so we'll see how it does. Haven't sailed it yet, but it is the engine so I expect we'll easily get to hull speed. My impressions: 30-2s are initially tender, then stiffen. Keeping the rudder in the water is good. Oh, and surfing down wind is a lot of fun too. We made up for a lot of upwind mistakes by overtaking boats down wind. Best of luck. Allen Miles S/V Septima 30-2 Hampton, VA From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:18 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Lorne Serpa Subject: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef? I've been sailing for about 1.5 years on a 13' hobbie and WW Potter P15. My 30MkII is my 1st real boat of any size and weight. I have not sailed it yet. I'll be heading out for my 1st sail about 1 July. When do you 30MkII owners start reefing above what wind speed? I believe the 30MkII is "tender", but have also read it is pretty "stiff" so I'm not sure what to believe. I'm not a fan of heeling yet, gets me a tid bit nervous, but not as much since taking ASA 101,103/104 last month. I have heard the 30MkII is pretty good carrying a lot of sail in light wind and moves well. I just needs to be reefed earlier than many boats to sail flat. What is considered decent wind for a 30MkII? I fully understand that it is based on skill. In my ASA classes, we put in a reef in at about Beaufort 6/7 in Corpus Christi Bay, TX. The boat was a 35' Benatou. We had a great time with no worries. Will a 30MkII be similar, or very different due to the 5 foot less, less beam, and probably much less ballast? ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef?
If you have an inclinometer, 22 degrees was the number we always used as max heel for efficiency. If you are heeling more than that, and you can't get the boat on her feet by easing the main a bit, reef. Our boats sail pretty well under just jib, so consider just dropping the main completely, if that seems easier...as long as you're not racing. As my old dad always used to say, "the best time to reef is when you first think about it." We will often just go to two reefs on Peregrine, figuring if there's enough breeze for one reef, there's enough for two! Andy C&C 40 Peregrine Andrew Burton 61 W Narragansett Newport, RI USA02840 http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ +401 965-5260 > On Jun 21, 2016, at 00:18, Lorne Serpa via CnC-List > wrote: > > I've been sailing for about 1.5 years on a 13' hobbie and WW Potter P15. My > 30MkII is my 1st real boat of any size and weight. I have not sailed it yet. > I'll be heading out for my 1st sail about 1 July. > > When do you 30MkII owners start reefing above what wind speed? I believe the > 30MkII is "tender", but have also read it is pretty "stiff" so I'm not sure > what to believe. I'm not a fan of heeling yet, gets me a tid bit nervous, > but not as much since taking ASA 101,103/104 last month. > > I have heard the 30MkII is pretty good carrying a lot of sail in light wind > and moves well. I just needs to be reefed earlier than many boats to sail > flat. > > What is considered decent wind for a 30MkII? I fully understand that it is > based on skill. In my ASA classes, we put in a reef in at about Beaufort 6/7 > in Corpus Christi Bay, TX. The boat was a 35' Benatou. We had a great time > with no worries. Will a 30MkII be similar, or very different due to the 5 > foot less, less beam, and probably much less ballast? > > ___ > > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like > what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions > are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef?
Hi Lorne, I carry a 140% headsail on my 30-2. I usually start getting overpowered upwind at around 12 knots true. Al RheaumeDrumroll 30-2 #90 From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Lorne Serpa Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:18 AM Subject: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef? I've been sailing for about 1.5 years on a 13' hobbie and WW Potter P15. My 30MkII is my 1st real boat of any size and weight. I have not sailed it yet. I'll be heading out for my 1st sail about 1 July. When do you 30MkII owners start reefing above what wind speed? I believe the 30MkII is "tender", but have also read it is pretty "stiff" so I'm not sure what to believe. I'm not a fan of heeling yet, gets me a tid bit nervous, but not as much since taking ASA 101,103/104 last month. I have heard the 30MkII is pretty good carrying a lot of sail in light wind and moves well. I just needs to be reefed earlier than many boats to sail flat. What is considered decent wind for a 30MkII? I fully understand that it is based on skill. In my ASA classes, we put in a reef in at about Beaufort 6/7 in Corpus Christi Bay, TX. The boat was a 35' Benatou. We had a great time with no worries. Will a 30MkII be similar, or very different due to the 5 foot less, less beam, and probably much less ballast? ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Re: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef?
Lorne - reef before you get nervous :) My ASA school taught if you are questioning whether you should reef, you already should have :) It's a matter of developing confidence with your boat's behavior under different sails and trims. I started sailing my new-to-me 30-1 just this year, and haven't gotten nervous or way overpowered yet - haven't sailed reefed yet - but I haven't seen winds higher than Beaufort 5 yet (the one time I was out in Beaufort 5 conditions I was under main only). Saturday night I had it heeling ~15+ degrees in Beaufort 4 winds under full main and 130% genoa, and was still several degrees of heel / inches of freeboard from putting a rail in the water. I was having a blast learning how my boat handles, but my wife didn't like it :) I've felt some weather helm on my 30-1 a few times, but have never felt like it was going to round up or heel harder over. It's pretty stiff. But I have no idea how a 30-2 feels. I'm impressed that you wouldn't reef your ASA school's Beneteau 35 until Beaufort 6 or 7. I've seen boats get overpowered, and their skippers reef, at lower wind speeds e.g. 18-20 knots which is Beaufort 5. If you're interested there is some introductory discussion of boat stability and shortening sail in https://www.amazon.com/Yacht-Design-According-Perry-Shaped/dp/007146557X . Beam is important to initial stability, but so is the shape of the hull. I suspect the 30-1's hull section is a factor in its stiffness i.e. initial stability. Cheers, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C&C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO - Original Message - From: "Lorne Serpa via CnC-List" To: "cnc-list" Cc: "Lorne Serpa" Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 10:18:17 PM Subject: Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef? I've been sailing for about 1.5 years on a 13' hobbie and WW Potter P15. My 30MkII is my 1st real boat of any size and weight. I have not sailed it yet. I'll be heading out for my 1st sail about 1 July. When do you 30MkII owners start reefing above what wind speed? I believe the 30MkII is "tender", but have also read it is pretty "stiff" so I'm not sure what to believe. I'm not a fan of heeling yet, gets me a tid bit nervous, but not as much since taking ASA 101,103/104 last month. I have heard the 30MkII is pretty good carrying a lot of sail in light wind and moves well. I just needs to be reefed earlier than many boats to sail flat. What is considered decent wind for a 30MkII? I fully understand that it is based on skill. In my ASA classes, we put in a reef in at about Beaufort 6/7 in Corpus Christi Bay, TX. The boat was a 35' Benatou. We had a great time with no worries. Will a 30MkII be similar, or very different due to the 5 foot less, less beam, and probably much less ballast? ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated! ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
Stus-List 1988 30MkII. When to reef?
I've been sailing for about 1.5 years on a 13' hobbie and WW Potter P15. My 30MkII is my 1st real boat of any size and weight. I have not sailed it yet. I'll be heading out for my 1st sail about 1 July. When do you 30MkII owners start reefing above what wind speed? I believe the 30MkII is "tender", but have also read it is pretty "stiff" so I'm not sure what to believe. I'm not a fan of heeling yet, gets me a tid bit nervous, but not as much since taking ASA 101,103/104 last month. I have heard the 30MkII is pretty good carrying a lot of sail in light wind and moves well. I just needs to be reefed earlier than many boats to sail flat. What is considered decent wind for a 30MkII? I fully understand that it is based on skill. In my ASA classes, we put in a reef in at about Beaufort 6/7 in Corpus Christi Bay, TX. The boat was a 35' Benatou. We had a great time with no worries. Will a 30MkII be similar, or very different due to the 5 foot less, less beam, and probably much less ballast? ___ This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
