Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

The PO of our boat had the glow plug button separated from the start button 
when I got it. The Universal manual for the engine shows them in series, 
meaning you'd have to hold both to start the engine so it was Universal's 
design, not C&C's.


> On September 12, 2017 at 12:49 AM "Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List" 
>  wrote:
> 
> On my Universal, it was the solenoid; took dozens of button pushes.  Then 
> it did it again a year later, only not nearly as bad.  The mechanic rewired 
> so the starter button and glow plugs were no longer interconnected.  The 
> voltage drop caused by the glow plug was the culprit apparently.  Now I let 
> up the glow plug and hit the starter and it seems to work fine.
> Mechanic didn't think it should ever have been wired so that the glow 
> plug had to be pushed for the starter button to function.
> Ron
> Wild Cheri
> C&C 30-1
> STL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> From: Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> To: CnClist 
> Cc: Dennis C. 
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry
> 
> Francois gave you some good things to look at.  My first shot would be a 
> dirty start button/switch.  I'd try jumping across the back of the switch.
> 
> As for starters, boat on my pier had a Volvo diesel.  Starter went bad.  
> Volvo starter was north of $700.  Lo and behold, it uses the same starter as 
> a Mitsubishi Lancer which can be bought for less than $100.  
> 
> As it turned about, it wasn't the starter.  I ended up with the old 
> starter if anybody out there has a Volvo (or a Lancer) and needs a spare.  
> It's been tested.
> 
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> 
> 
> 
 

> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you 
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
> 
 
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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

My Perkins is configured this way, as well. The glow plugs are activated by the 
ignition key (what would normally be considered “starter” position and the 
starter is a separate button. But the starter is interlocked with the glow 
plugs.

So it seems that this interlock is common enough.

Marek
1994 C270 Legato
Perkins M20

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Dennis C. via CnC-List<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 14:21
To: CnClist<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Dennis C.<mailto:capt...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

Agree with Rick.  Universal diesel are configured that way today.  Press the 
pre-heat button activates the glow plugs, silences the oil pressure alarm and 
provides power to the starter solenoid.

Dennis C.

On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Ron;

Yes, there is a voltage drop from B+ to ground when the glow plug button is 
pushed. But the current is flowing from B+ to a glow plug relay and then to 
ground, and not through the glow plug button. The button passes a current of 
only an amp or two to close the relay.

If the voltage drop from the glow plugs causes the starter to not operate, and 
if the buttons themselves are not worn (which is highly likely after 20-40 
years), then I’d suspect a developing problem in the starter or solenoid, or 
corrosion is the wiring of the start circuit.

The idea of having the start button powered from the glow plug button is to 
make you use the glow plugs when starting, and thus ensures easier starts. At 
one time that was a pretty common configuration on diesels – as a matter of 
fact, automotive diesels still do it now, except the activation of the glow 
plugs is controlled by the on-board software which delays the activation of the 
starter slightly to let the glow plugs take effect. One slight but additional 
result of the start button being powered from the glow plug button is to 
eliminate the chance of a defective start button causing damage to the starter 
and related components, or depleting your battery.

One wonders about the experience level of the mechanic you talked to.

Rick Brass
Washington, NC



From: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] On 
Behalf Of Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:49 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Ronald B. Frerker mailto:rbfrer...@yahoo.com>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

Mechanic didn't think it should ever have been wired so that the glow plug had 
to be pushed for the starter button to function.
Ron
Wild Cheri
C&C 30-1
STL




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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Agree with Rick.  Universal diesel are configured that way today.  Press
the pre-heat button activates the glow plugs, silences the oil pressure
alarm and provides power to the starter solenoid.

Dennis C.

On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Ron;
>
>
>
> Yes, there is a voltage drop from B+ to ground when the glow plug button
> is pushed. But the current is flowing from B+ to a glow plug relay and then
> to ground, and not through the glow plug button. The button passes a
> current of only an amp or two to close the relay.
>
>
>
> If the voltage drop from the glow plugs causes the starter to not operate,
> and if the buttons themselves are not worn (which is highly likely after
> 20-40 years), then I’d suspect a developing problem in the starter or
> solenoid, or corrosion is the wiring of the start circuit.
>
>
>
> The idea of having the start button powered from the glow plug button is
> to make you use the glow plugs when starting, and thus ensures easier
> starts. At one time that was a pretty common configuration on diesels – as
> a matter of fact, automotive diesels still do it now, except the activation
> of the glow plugs is controlled by the on-board software which delays the
> activation of the starter slightly to let the glow plugs take effect. One
> slight but additional result of the start button being powered from the
> glow plug button is to eliminate the chance of a defective start button
> causing damage to the starter and related components, or depleting your
> battery.
>
>
>
> One wonders about the experience level of the mechanic you talked to.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> Washington, NC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Ronald
> B. Frerker via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:49 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Ronald B. Frerker 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry
>
>
>
> Mechanic didn't think it should ever have been wired so that the glow plug
> had to be pushed for the starter button to function.
>
> Ron
>
> Wild Cheri
>
> C&C 30-1
>
> STL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Ron;

 

Yes, there is a voltage drop from B+ to ground when the glow plug button is 
pushed. But the current is flowing from B+ to a glow plug relay and then to 
ground, and not through the glow plug button. The button passes a current of 
only an amp or two to close the relay.

 

If the voltage drop from the glow plugs causes the starter to not operate, and 
if the buttons themselves are not worn (which is highly likely after 20-40 
years), then I’d suspect a developing problem in the starter or solenoid, or 
corrosion is the wiring of the start circuit.

 

The idea of having the start button powered from the glow plug button is to 
make you use the glow plugs when starting, and thus ensures easier starts. At 
one time that was a pretty common configuration on diesels – as a matter of 
fact, automotive diesels still do it now, except the activation of the glow 
plugs is controlled by the on-board software which delays the activation of the 
starter slightly to let the glow plugs take effect. One slight but additional 
result of the start button being powered from the glow plug button is to 
eliminate the chance of a defective start button causing damage to the starter 
and related components, or depleting your battery.

 

One wonders about the experience level of the mechanic you talked to.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ronald B. 
Frerker via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:49 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Ronald B. Frerker 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

 

Mechanic didn't think it should ever have been wired so that the glow plug had 
to be pushed for the starter button to function.

Ron

Wild Cheri

C&C 30-1

STL

 

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

Before buying a new starter I would try jumping the big terminals on the 
starter with a big screw driver and test the starter. If it fails to jump into 
action or hesitates, there are rebuild shops around that rebuild starters and 
alternators for cars and boats. I had mine rebuilt in 2005 for $75 at a local 
shop. Google it.

If instead, the starter operates when jumped, there is no problem there, I 
would jump the smaller terminals with a screwdriver and see if it pulls in 
reliably.

If no problem there I would clean all of the wiring terminals between the start 
button and the starter solenoid. The starter solenoid gets it's ground through 
the starter mounting to the engine block so clean the ground terminal on the 
engine too. Unmounting the starter, cleaning the mating surfaces and remounting 
may also improve the ground.

Many engines come with a wiring harness with a quick disconnect coupling with 
12 wires in it that can become a problem. Follow the wire from the starter 
button to through this coupling to the solenoid and the positive 12V wire that 
goes from the battery through the coupling to the engine gage panel. Cut them 
out of the coupling and use a separate connection for each to improve the 
circuit voltage. Reroute any wiring that goes through the bilge to keep it dry, 
and not loose voltage to a short to water.


> On September 12, 2017 at 9:02 AM Russ & Melody via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> The marine insulated started is usually insulted when the owner finds out 
> the price. :)
> 
> Cheers, Russ
> Sweet 35 mk-1
> 
> At 03:50 AM 12/09/2017, you wrote:
> 
> > > Content-Language: en-CA
> > Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> >  
> > boundary="_000_CY1PR11MB0968EEB56BFB81BA4B3DC59FCE690CY1PR11MB0968namp_"
> > 
> > There is a difference between a marine starter and the non-marine 
> > equivalent. Often the bearing are different and it is differently insulted. 
> > 
> > I suggest reading on Maine Sail's web page.
> > 
> > Marek
> > ___
> > 
> > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If 
> > you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> > 
> > All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
> > 
> > > 
 

> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you 
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
> 
 
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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Russ & Melody via CnC-List]

The marine insulated started is usually insulted when the owner finds 
out the price. :)


Cheers, Russ
Sweet 35 mk-1

At 03:50 AM 12/09/2017, you wrote:

Content-Language: en-CA
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

boundary="_000_CY1PR11MB0968EEB56BFB81BA4B3DC59FCE690CY1PR11MB0968namp_"

There is a difference between a marine starter and the non-marine 
equivalent. Often the bearing are different and it is differently insulted.


I suggest reading on Maine Sail's web page.

Marek
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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

There is a difference between a marine starter and the non-marine equivalent. 
Often the bearing are different and it is differently insulted.

I suggest reading on Maine Sail's web page.

Marek
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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

On my Universal, it was the solenoid; took dozens of button pushes.  Then it 
did it again a year later, only not nearly as bad.  The mechanic rewired so the 
starter button and glow plugs were no longer interconnected.  The voltage drop 
caused by the glow plug was the culprit apparently.  Now I let up the glow plug 
and hit the starter and it seems to work fine.Mechanic didn't think it should 
ever have been wired so that the glow plug had to be pushed for the starter 
button to function.RonWild CheriC&C 30-1STL


  From: Dennis C. via CnC-List 
 To: CnClist  
Cc: Dennis C. 
 Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 10:33 PM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry
   
Francois gave you some good things to look at.  My first shot would be a dirty 
start button/switch.  I'd try jumping across the back of the switch.
As for starters, boat on my pier had a Volvo diesel.  Starter went bad.  Volvo 
starter was north of $700.  Lo and behold, it uses the same starter as a 
Mitsubishi Lancer which can be bought for less than $100.  
As it turned about, it wasn't the starter.  I ended up with the old starter if 
anybody out there has a Volvo (or a Lancer) and needs a spare.  It's been 
tested.
Dennis C.Touche' 35-1 #83Mandeville, LA

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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Francois gave you some good things to look at.  My first shot would be a
dirty start button/switch.  I'd try jumping across the back of the switch.

As for starters, boat on my pier had a Volvo diesel.  Starter went bad.
Volvo starter was north of $700.  Lo and behold, it uses the same starter
as a Mitsubishi Lancer which can be bought for less than $100.

As it turned about, it wasn't the starter.  I ended up with the old starter
if anybody out there has a Volvo (or a Lancer) and needs a spare.  It's
been tested.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 8:53 PM, Dan Grant via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I have a universal M 18 that I have to push the starter A few times to get
> it going it always works but I fear someday it won't
> I looked into getting a new starter and my parts guy said congratulations
> you have the most expensive starter I've seen $1000
> I can get a new Kubota starter which would work fine for about 100
> Very confusing
> I looked it up and there is something about running A stronger wire to the
> starter
> Maybe that's the problem?
> I'd like to know myself
>
> Dan
> 1970 Cv hull 148
> Ipswich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 11, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Francois Rivard via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Mastry (www.mastry.com) does it again! I just replaced the starter on
> Take Five this weekend and got a sweet deal on a re-man Hitachi unit: US
> $128.44 + shipping. Mastry's the best! They always have the best price,
> they even beat eBay and the shipping is super fast.
>
> That's for a real deal Yanmar / Hitachi unit confirmed to fit using my
> 3gm30F's serial number.
>
> Also the starter comes with a 18 months warranty, way better than the
> Yanmar 6 mos new parts warranty.
>
> The problem on my old starter?  I suspect there was a bad winding. It
> would sometimes take 2-3 button pushes to get it going.
>
> -Francois
> 1990 34+ "Take Five"
> Lake Lanier, GA
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Francois Rivard via CnC-List]

Ouch! 1000 Bucks is steep. The Kubota alternative sounds a lot better.

I'm not much of a believer in the bigger wire. If it was big enough when
designed 30 + years ago, it's still big enough. Perhaps a bigger wire would
bandaid the symptom for a while.

It can be any number of things:

-The switch, on a Yanmar there's no relay (bad) so the brunt of the current
goes through the post button thingie. I replaced mine last year when it
started doing it occasionally. It's seemed to put a bandaid on it for a
while. Not sure how it's done on a Universal

-The connections to the starter or switch. Mine were clean and tight. (And
new on the switch side)

- The solenoid
- The brushes
- The winding

For me it started doing it very infrequently last year and got
progressively worse this year.

What sealed the deal for me was the prior weekend. It usually took 2 pushes
when cold at the beginning of the weekend then got better. On that weekend
it started right up when cold and took 3 pushes (one more than usual) after
sailing for a few hours.

At that point I knew that

 1)  A no go situation was probably pretty close around the corner
2) The completely random nature of the failure meant that the winding was
more than likely the culprit as where it happens to stop on the commutator
determines your faith.

I also knew that at most I would pay 265 bucks for an equivalent Hitachi
unit on eBay so there was no use in fooling with brushes or solenoids on a
27 year old starter, the bearings / winding could not be much further
behind if the problem was the solenoid or brushes..

And yes, now it starts right up at the smallest tickle of the start button.

I hope this helps..

Good luck,

François



On Sep 11, 2017 9:53 PM, "Dan Grant"  wrote:

I have a universal M 18 that I have to push the starter A few times to get
it going it always works but I fear someday it won't
I looked into getting a new starter and my parts guy said congratulations
you have the most expensive starter I've seen $1000
I can get a new Kubota starter which would work fine for about 100
Very confusing
I looked it up and there is something about running A stronger wire to the
starter
Maybe that's the problem?
I'd like to know myself

Dan
1970 Cv hull 148
Ipswich

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 11, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Francois Rivard via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

Mastry (www.mastry.com) does it again! I just replaced the starter on Take
Five this weekend and got a sweet deal on a re-man Hitachi unit: US $128.44
+ shipping. Mastry's the best! They always have the best price, they even
beat eBay and the shipping is super fast.

That's for a real deal Yanmar / Hitachi unit confirmed to fit using my
3gm30F's serial number.

Also the starter comes with a 18 months warranty, way better than the
Yanmar 6 mos new parts warranty.

The problem on my old starter?  I suspect there was a bad winding. It would
sometimes take 2-3 button pushes to get it going.

-Francois
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA

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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List]

I have to push the starter button several times before the starter turns
the engine over.  I thought it was the starter button.  I'd better check
that out before I get into trouble, and cant start the engine in an
emergency.

Speaking of an emergency, after finishing a race, yesterday, we dropped the
chute and started the engine, as we approached a railroad bridge.  We
suddenly smelled smoke, and when we opened the cockpit hatch, smoke poured
out.  After closer inspection of the engine, we discovered the alternator
belt had been slipping,  It got hot, melted and got stuck to the engine
pulley.  Luckily I had an extra belt on board, and a half hour later the
repair was completed.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Dan Grant via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I have a universal M 18 that I have to push the starter A few times to get
> it going it always works but I fear someday it won't
> I looked into getting a new starter and my parts guy said congratulations
> you have the most expensive starter I've seen $1000
> I can get a new Kubota starter which would work fine for about 100
> Very confusing
> I looked it up and there is something about running A stronger wire to the
> starter
> Maybe that's the problem?
> I'd like to know myself
>
> Dan
> 1970 Cv hull 148
> Ipswich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 11, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Francois Rivard via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Mastry (www.mastry.com
> )
> does it again! I just replaced the starter on Take Five this weekend and
> got a sweet deal on a re-man Hitachi unit: US $128.44 + shipping. Mastry's
> the best! They always have the best price, they even beat eBay and the
> shipping is super fast.
>
> That's for a real deal Yanmar / Hitachi unit confirmed to fit using my
> 3gm30F's serial number.
>
> Also the starter comes with a 18 months warranty, way better than the
> Yanmar 6 mos new parts warranty.
>
> The problem on my old starter?  I suspect there was a bad winding. It
> would sometimes take 2-3 button pushes to get it going.
>
> -Francois
> 1990 34+ "Take Five"
> Lake Lanier, GA
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
> ___
>
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> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
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>
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>
>


-- 
Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR
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Re: Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Dan Grant via CnC-List]

I have a universal M 18 that I have to push the starter A few times to get it 
going it always works but I fear someday it won't 
I looked into getting a new starter and my parts guy said congratulations you 
have the most expensive starter I've seen $1000  
I can get a new Kubota starter which would work fine for about 100
Very confusing
I looked it up and there is something about running A stronger wire to the 
starter
Maybe that's the problem?
I'd like to know myself

Dan 
1970 Cv hull 148 
Ipswich 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 11, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Francois Rivard via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mastry (www.mastry.com) does it again! I just replaced the starter on Take 
> Five this weekend and got a sweet deal on a re-man Hitachi unit: US $128.44 + 
> shipping. Mastry's the best! They always have the best price, they even beat 
> eBay and the shipping is super fast. 
> 
> That's for a real deal Yanmar / Hitachi unit confirmed to fit using my 
> 3gm30F's serial number. 
> 
> Also the starter comes with a 18 months warranty, way better than the Yanmar 
> 6 mos new parts warranty.  
> 
> The problem on my old starter?  I suspect there was a bad winding. It would 
> sometimes take 2-3 button pushes to get it going. 
> 
> -Francois
> 1990 34+ "Take Five"
> Lake Lanier, GA
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Deal on starter from Mastry

[Francois Rivard via CnC-List]

Mastry (www.mastry.com) does it again! I just replaced the starter on Take
Five this weekend and got a sweet deal on a re-man Hitachi unit: US $128.44
+ shipping. Mastry's the best! They always have the best price, they even
beat eBay and the shipping is super fast.

That's for a real deal Yanmar / Hitachi unit confirmed to fit using my
3gm30F's serial number.

Also the starter comes with a 18 months warranty, way better than the
Yanmar 6 mos new parts warranty.

The problem on my old starter?  I suspect there was a bad winding. It would
sometimes take 2-3 button pushes to get it going.

-Francois
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!