Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
Martin, I always enjoy your generous and sound advice. Tell John "hello" from New Jersey Chuck. That daysail on Calypso was a highlight of my trip to Seattle. You guys were so gracious to invite me, a stranger, aboard and I've since taken another lister sailing w his family and just can't thank you enough for your hospitality. Moved the boat close to Annapolis, and better sailing, and hope to return the favor if either/both of you get East? BTW, Hope to take more listers sailing. Contact me if interested? Chuck Resolute 1990 C&C 34R Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md - Original Message - From: "CNC boat owners, cnc-list" To: "Jimmy Kelly" , "CNC boat owners, cnc-list" Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:13:44 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List dual ownership? Calypso has been co-owned for 15 years, and we (the co-owners) had a C&C 36 in a partnership for 7 years before that. The partnership agreement is similar to a real estate limited partnership with a general partner (takes care of finances, insurance, taxes etc.) and a limited partner. We started at 50/50 with a mechanism to compensate (with ownership share) if one partner contribute more $$ over time. We have a partnership[p checking account with auto deposit of monthly contribution. Scheduling has rarely been an issue but we had a practice of alternating years for first pick of major holidays etc. Lately we have been setting up the race sched in January and discussing what other events/cruises may be interesting. Both our spouses are dis -inclined to go out with us for more than a day sail unless we line up extra crew to assist with the sail handling. We both race, splitting duties and sharing/discussion tactical decisions. Fortunately we have had similar ideas of budget and level of completion. We double-hand race from time to time and have been able to deal with "heat of the moment" race decisions without creating long term inter-personal issues. My best advice for boat partnerships is to pick a partner that is a good person first, good sailor second, ability to pay third, Next have a written separation agreement that makes it possible to un-wind the partnership when things change. Some separation clauses I have seen include the right of one partner to buy out the other before offering the share for sale, others with the ability of the remaining partner to veto a unsuitable new partner. Feel free to email questions on co-ownership experience if I did not cover your particular questions. Martin Calypso 1971 C&C 43 Seattle From: CnC-List [cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] on behalf of Jimmy Kelly via CnC-List [cnc-list@cnc-list.com] Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:19 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List dual ownership? has any one tried shared ownership of sailboat? have owned & operated my cnc 41 for 40 years..am finding not using enough..but do not wish to sell her...younger co owners as well as us in 70s...could work something out..to mutual benefitboat in good shape needs very little other than marina&insurance costs..would this be good way for younger couple to get into larger boatany ideas are welcome...boat currently west coast ... ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
Which is common with aircraft — dual ownership, or one owner taking it to South America? :^) Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI On Jul 14, 2014, at 9:30 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List wrote: > I know of a dual-owned C&C that was taken to South America by one owner > without the permission of the other. Just sayin… > BTW, this type of thing is very common with aircraft. > > Joe Della Barba > Coquina C&C 35 MK I ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
I meant dual ownership for airplanes, not getting taken to South America! Joe Della Barba From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 10:31 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List dual ownership? I know of a dual-owned C&C that was taken to South America by one owner without the permission of the other. Just sayin... BTW, this type of thing is very common with aircraft. Joe Della Barba Coquina C&C 35 MK I ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
In the airplane world there are a variety of partnerships. Some have equity partners with ownership interest and some have a lower tier of partner that pay a defined amount per month and per hour, but have no equity in the aircraft. You need to be careful with your insurance company – they may see this as some kind of charter operation and want a different policy. Airplanes can usually only be shared 4 ways until the insurance decides it is a flying club and doubles the rates ☹ Joe Della Barba Coquina From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Robert Gallagher via CnC-List Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 10:19 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List dual ownership? On the subject of partnerships; Does anyone have any experience with some sort of limited partnership. Here is my situation: 30 MKII, in very nice but not perfect shape. Well equipped for weekends and short cruises. Basic electronics and older sails. I don't race, the sails are decent but to race competitively would require $eriou$ upgrades. I work almost every weekend and holiday. I'm limited in my summer vacation time. I have my own mooring so I simply pay for dinghy storage/access at a marina in the summer. Winter haul out/storage is very reasonable and I do ALL my own maintanence and repairs. The boat is financed/insured. I'm on my boat every tues/wed/thurs and end up using it about three or four weekends a year. One for my spring cruise and one for my fall cruise. I have often considered a partner or putting the boat out for charter to help cover costs as I'm never on it during the weekend. As the boat is financed, it would seem wise to keep it in my name and find someone who would contribute marina fees and use the boat darn near any weekend they choose. Maybe just keep it on a year to year basis, sort of like a lease? $2K per year would most of the marina/storage fees and I don't plan on any major upgrades. Or would that create more problems than it would solve? Rob ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
I know of a dual-owned C&C that was taken to South America by one owner without the permission of the other. Just sayin... BTW, this type of thing is very common with aircraft. Joe Della Barba Coquina C&C 35 MK I ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
On the subject of partnerships; Does anyone have any experience with some sort of limited partnership. Here is my situation: 30 MKII, in very nice but not perfect shape. Well equipped for weekends and short cruises. Basic electronics and older sails. I don't race, the sails are decent but to race competitively would require $eriou$ upgrades. I work almost every weekend and holiday. I'm limited in my summer vacation time. I have my own mooring so I simply pay for dinghy storage/access at a marina in the summer. Winter haul out/storage is very reasonable and I do ALL my own maintanence and repairs. The boat is financed/insured. I'm on my boat every tues/wed/thurs and end up using it about three or four weekends a year. One for my spring cruise and one for my fall cruise. I have often considered a partner or putting the boat out for charter to help cover costs as I'm never on it during the weekend. As the boat is financed, it would seem wise to keep it in my name and find someone who would contribute marina fees and use the boat darn near any weekend they choose. Maybe just keep it on a year to year basis, sort of like a lease? $2K per year would most of the marina/storage fees and I don't plan on any major upgrades. Or would that create more problems than it would solve? Rob ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
If you are anal about your stuff sure I would not do it. But if you can share in the cost and the now the difference between abuse and ware and tear, you may reconsider. My wife and I are not retired and will be another 5 or 6 years. My sailing partner gets the lion share of sail time. But more importantly some one is using the boat and making daily repairs as needed and keeping systems up and running. That way when I get to the boat on the weekend the boat is in great shape. dockedge and insh is around $4000. a year then there is the bottom cleaning I do my self. it would cost $75.00 bucks each time to have it cleaned. I got certified to do it my self. saves a bundle. In South Carolina it has to be done twice a month in the warmer months. April - December. Some people never share there stuff. You'll find these are the same people that would never entertain a boat share situation. Most will not share a drill with there neighbor. That being said it is important to find a partner that you like and that has good sharing characteristics*.* *We are in our 4th year and its been great...* On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I would suggest considering all the potential bad outcomes and have an > agreement regarding those before they happen. E.g. how you deal with > repairs due to one party's negligence or error. E.g. One option is the > guilty party pays, but this may lead to hiding problems; the other option > is you split the cost, but this may lead to one side paying for the other > side's mistakes. Another issue is to decide up front about any potential > upgrades (one person wants a new Kevlar racing sail, the other an upgrade > to the head or one wants to spend max $100 a year for upgrades, the other > does not mind $5000). > > > > Just a few thoughts. When we started sailing again some 10 years ago, we > mused about going into a partnership and decided against it. So far, we > don't regret it. > > > > Marek (in Ottawa). > > > > *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin > DeYoung via CnC-List > *Sent:* Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:14 PM > *To:* Jimmy Kelly; cnc-list@cnc-list.com > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List dual ownership? > > > > Calypso has been co-owned for 15 years, and we (the co-owners) had a C&C > 36 in a partnership for 7 years before that. > > > > The partnership agreement is similar to a real estate limited partnership > with a general partner (takes care of finances, insurance, taxes etc.) and > a limited partner. We started at 50/50 with a mechanism to compensate > (with ownership share) if one partner contribute more $$ over time. We > have a partnership[p checking account with auto deposit of monthly > contribution. > > > > Scheduling has rarely been an issue but we had a practice of alternating > years for first pick of major holidays etc. Lately we have been setting up > the race sched in January and discussing what other events/cruises may be > interesting. Both our spouses are dis-inclined to go out with us for more > than a day sail unless we line up extra crew to assist with the sail > handling. > > > > We both race, splitting duties and sharing/discussion tactical decisions. > Fortunately we have had similar ideas of budget and level of completion. > We double-hand race from time to time and have been able to deal with "heat > of the moment" race decisions without creating long term inter-personal > issues. > > > > My best advice for boat partnerships is to pick a partner that is a good > person first, good sailor second, ability to pay third, Next have a > written separation agreement that makes it possible to un-wind the > partnership when things change. > > > > Some separation clauses I have seen include the right of one partner to > buy out the other before offering the share for sale, others with the > ability of the remaining partner to veto a unsuitable new partner. > > > > Feel free to email questions on co-ownership experience if I did not cover > your particular questions. > > > > Martin > > Calypso > > 1971 C&C 43 > > Seattle > -- > > *From:* CnC-List [cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] on behalf of Jimmy Kelly > via CnC-List [cnc-list@cnc-list.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:19 PM > *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com > *Subject:* Stus-List dual ownership? > > has any one tried shared ownership of sailboat? have owned & operated my > cnc 41 for 40 years..am finding not using enough..but do not wish to sell > her...younger co owners as well as us in 70s...could work something out..to > mutual benefitboat in good
Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
I would suggest considering all the potential bad outcomes and have an agreement regarding those before they happen. E.g. how you deal with repairs due to one party's negligence or error. E.g. One option is the guilty party pays, but this may lead to hiding problems; the other option is you split the cost, but this may lead to one side paying for the other side's mistakes. Another issue is to decide up front about any potential upgrades (one person wants a new Kevlar racing sail, the other an upgrade to the head or one wants to spend max $100 a year for upgrades, the other does not mind $5000). Just a few thoughts. When we started sailing again some 10 years ago, we mused about going into a partnership and decided against it. So far, we don't regret it. Marek (in Ottawa). From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Martin DeYoung via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:14 PM To: Jimmy Kelly; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List dual ownership? Calypso has been co-owned for 15 years, and we (the co-owners) had a C&C 36 in a partnership for 7 years before that. The partnership agreement is similar to a real estate limited partnership with a general partner (takes care of finances, insurance, taxes etc.) and a limited partner. We started at 50/50 with a mechanism to compensate (with ownership share) if one partner contribute more $$ over time. We have a partnership[p checking account with auto deposit of monthly contribution. Scheduling has rarely been an issue but we had a practice of alternating years for first pick of major holidays etc. Lately we have been setting up the race sched in January and discussing what other events/cruises may be interesting. Both our spouses are dis-inclined to go out with us for more than a day sail unless we line up extra crew to assist with the sail handling. We both race, splitting duties and sharing/discussion tactical decisions. Fortunately we have had similar ideas of budget and level of completion. We double-hand race from time to time and have been able to deal with "heat of the moment" race decisions without creating long term inter-personal issues. My best advice for boat partnerships is to pick a partner that is a good person first, good sailor second, ability to pay third, Next have a written separation agreement that makes it possible to un-wind the partnership when things change. Some separation clauses I have seen include the right of one partner to buy out the other before offering the share for sale, others with the ability of the remaining partner to veto a unsuitable new partner. Feel free to email questions on co-ownership experience if I did not cover your particular questions. Martin Calypso 1971 C&C 43 Seattle _ From: CnC-List [cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] on behalf of Jimmy Kelly via CnC-List [cnc-list@cnc-list.com] Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:19 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List dual ownership? has any one tried shared ownership of sailboat? have owned & operated my cnc 41 for 40 years..am finding not using enough..but do not wish to sell her...younger co owners as well as us in 70s...could work something out..to mutual benefitboat in good shape needs very little other than marina&insurance costs..would this be good way for younger couple to get into larger boatany ideas are welcome...boat currently west coast ... ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
Calypso has been co-owned for 15 years, and we (the co-owners) had a C&C 36 in a partnership for 7 years before that. The partnership agreement is similar to a real estate limited partnership with a general partner (takes care of finances, insurance, taxes etc.) and a limited partner. We started at 50/50 with a mechanism to compensate (with ownership share) if one partner contribute more $$ over time. We have a partnership[p checking account with auto deposit of monthly contribution. Scheduling has rarely been an issue but we had a practice of alternating years for first pick of major holidays etc. Lately we have been setting up the race sched in January and discussing what other events/cruises may be interesting. Both our spouses are dis-inclined to go out with us for more than a day sail unless we line up extra crew to assist with the sail handling. We both race, splitting duties and sharing/discussion tactical decisions. Fortunately we have had similar ideas of budget and level of completion. We double-hand race from time to time and have been able to deal with "heat of the moment" race decisions without creating long term inter-personal issues. My best advice for boat partnerships is to pick a partner that is a good person first, good sailor second, ability to pay third, Next have a written separation agreement that makes it possible to un-wind the partnership when things change. Some separation clauses I have seen include the right of one partner to buy out the other before offering the share for sale, others with the ability of the remaining partner to veto a unsuitable new partner. Feel free to email questions on co-ownership experience if I did not cover your particular questions. Martin Calypso 1971 C&C 43 Seattle From: CnC-List [cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] on behalf of Jimmy Kelly via CnC-List [cnc-list@cnc-list.com] Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 1:19 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List dual ownership? has any one tried shared ownership of sailboat? have owned & operated my cnc 41 for 40 years..am finding not using enough..but do not wish to sell her...younger co owners as well as us in 70s...could work something out..to mutual benefitboat in good shape needs very little other than marina&insurance costs..would this be good way for younger couple to get into larger boatany ideas are welcome...boat currently west coast ... ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List dual ownership?
I Co-Own The East Coast Lady. It was not a hard choice for me. I would never be able to keep my boat at the marina as I do now, with the $ help of a partner. My sailing partner is 10 or 12 years older than me and my wife. This works out for the older couple now. We can only sail on the weekends and vacations. They can sail every day. 10 years from when we retire, we will be sailing all the time and partner will be tired and only want to sail once in a while. The boat is mine on paper and will remain so. The deal to the partner is we split the operational cost, up-fit cost, Maintenance fuel fees dockage, haul-out fees, etc. etc. you own the boat and share the rest. Work out sailing times. It has worked great for us and to be quite frank the 2 of us don't use it enough. Just make sure you explain going into the relationship the the deal has nothing to do wioth ownership. Its only usage. Make sure they are as anal as you on the cleaning of the bottom and the bird poop on top. Make sure you like them cause you will find your self sailing with him more than you think. Have fun... Like I said it works great for us. On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Jimmy Kelly via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > has any one tried shared ownership of sailboat? have owned & operated my > cnc 41 for 40 years..am finding not using enough..but do not wish to sell > her...younger co owners as well as us in 70s...could work something out..to > mutual benefitboat in good shape needs very little other than > marina&insurance costs..would this be good way for younger couple to get > into larger boatany ideas are welcome...boat currently west coast ... > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of > page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > -- "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake up in the day to find it was vanity, but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men,for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible." T. E. Lawrence . ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List dual ownership?
has any one tried shared ownership of sailboat? have owned & operated my cnc 41 for 40 years..am finding not using enough..but do not wish to sell her...younger co owners as well as us in 70s...could work something out..to mutual benefitboat in good shape needs very little other than marina&insurance costs..would this be good way for younger couple to get into larger boatany ideas are welcome...boat currently west coast ... ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
