Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev]

 > It’s better for Apple as a company, but personally, I’d rather be able
to upgrade my devices.

It's also extremely bad for the environment.
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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Alex Zavatone via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 6:28 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Convert resources from ResEdit 

DUDE.  This is what, 20 years overdue?
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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Alex Zavatone via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 2:43 PM, Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.
>> 
> 
> I think, eventually, maybe in 5 years' time, that will be the case.
> This is really just a guess, I have no insights into Apple's roadmap.

Back before Steve brought Phil back to Apple, we worked together at Macromedia.
Phil mentioned to me in about 1996, 1997 back at Macromedia that it was the 
goal for Apple to turn computers into the equivalent o kitchen appliances.  You 
won’t upgrade your computer, you will just buy a new appliance.  

We’re still on the pathway there.

It’s better for Apple as a company, but personally, I’d rather be able to 
upgrade my devices.

Cheers,
Alex Zavatone

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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Jeff Szuhay via Cocoa-dev]

You made a business decision and now you must live with that decision.

Otherwise, this thread is really getting tiresome.


> On Nov 13, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> blah blah blah



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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

Our app is used by remodelers and construction folks to run their
businesses- accounting, estimating, project management, billing, payroll.
It's big- kinda like FileMaker, plus QuickBooks, plus a bit of Excel, plus
a drawing window for customizing. It took about 15 programmer-years for
version 1.0, then another 5 to get it really good.  It's too big, but
people need it all to run their biz.

There are a few similar apps on Windows, but we have the only one for Mac.
I don't think anyone else on Mac does payroll- which is insanely
complicated. A few thousand users.  We run the TurtleSoft business with it,
plus another which is paying the bills right now. You can download our demo
and take a look, if you want.  If anyone wants to see the stalled Cocoa
beta I can send it.

We are remodelers who learned to program Excel, then HyperTalk, then C++,
usually just working part-time at it.  I'm sure we aren't rock stars as
programmers, but we managed to ship some decent apps.  There were 2 or 3
programmers on staff for most of the 90s.  Mostly just founders and
subcontractors since then.

We started the 64-bit update in 2013 and not before because construction
was hit very hard by the recession.  2008 to 2011 sales dropped 50% each
year, so it was major downsizing.  We tried to subcontract the Cocoa
update, but 4 different contractors tried it, realized they grossly
underbid and gave up.

Here's a rough programmer-month breakdown for the entire 64-bit update,
spread out over 5 years:
Complete object database rewrite- 4 months + 2 months debugging
Remove PowerPlant, rewrite LArray, misc updating to 64-bit and modern C++ -
6 months
Find subcontractors, negotiate, test, etc-  4 months
Convert resources from ResEdit to modern formats- 1 month
Learn Objective-C, Cocoa and Swift- 4 months
Main window setup, files, C++ to Obj-C links, Cocoa basics- 4 months
Ditto in Visual Studio/MFC- 1 month
Redo & improve main window design in MFC & Cocoa- 3 months
Get various Excel-like tables to work with NSTableView- 6 months
Revise table data entry to use panels because tables still didn't work
right- 1 month
Redo drawing environment for customizing- 1 month (gave up, sample project
too old)
Debug mystery crashes in Cocoa- 3 months
Specialty windows & misc- 4 months (still not done)

The first 10 years were a blast--  rapid growth, excellent cash flow, lots
of travel, teaching clases, spending time with users and other developers.
Then Apple hit the wall and it was 5 years of barely hanging on.  Then 5
years of excellent cash flow again.  The past 10 years have just been eking
and hard work, thankfully not full-time.  Hopefully we'll get a cash cow
back at some point, so it's fun again.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 3:21 PM Laurent Daudelin 
wrote:

> You know, I was thinking the same when Casey mentioned how long it was
> taking to convert their app to Cocoa...
>
> -Laurent.
> --
>
> On Nov 13, 2019, at 14:38, Gary L. Wade via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
>
> If it takes you that long, then you need to hire new developers rather
> than wasting your time posting complaints on an email list.
> --
> Gary L. Wade
> http://www.garywade.com/
>
> On Nov 13, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev <
> cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> wrote:
>
> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
> an app and sell it for long enough to get payback.
>
>
>
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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 10:58 AM, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Over the last 16 years would bet that a lot of spit and polish has gone into 
> integrating Cocoa with Windows by the iTunes team.

They only integrated the iTunes app with Windows. Getting a single app working 
does not make a GUI framework suitable for general use. It would have taken 
much, much more work to produce and support something that could be used by all 
app developers. And apparently Apple determined that this wasn't in their 
interest, probably with good reasons.

—Jens
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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Saagar Jha via Cocoa-dev]

Saagar Jha

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 12:43, Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.
>> 
> 
> I think, eventually, maybe in 5 years' time, that will be the case.
> This is really just a guess, I have no insights into Apple's roadmap.
> 
> Speaking of which: I have never been there myself, but wouldn't the apple 
> engineers
> at WWDC share some private, unofficially insights into Apple's future plans?

No, they’re not supposed to.

>> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
> 
> I can understand that.
> 
> My guess would be that in 5-10 years' time, iPad's (i.e., tablets in general),
> will be powerful enough that there won't be any laptop's any more, 
> except maybe some rare models for the gamers.
> The laptops by that time will essentially be tablets that come with 
> pre-installed keyboard.
> 
> I am not sure what will happen to the standard desktop market.
> OTOH, tablets by that time will be powerful enough that , I guess, 90 % of 
> all office applications will run just fine on a tablet.
> OTOH, CIO's are usually reluctant to try out new hardware.
> 
> That would mean that macOS might go away eventually, too,
> because everything will run under iOS.
> 
> Best regards, Gabriel
> 
> 
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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Mike Abdullah via Cocoa-dev]

> On 13 Nov 2019, at 19:31, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> I made a rather bold statement about Cocoa being doomed.  Here's some
> background on where it came from.
> 
> Apple and Microsoft are both working on next-generation app development
> platforms, with the goal of having one dev library for desktop, tablet,
> phone and anything else.  Meanwhile, Mozilla also is working to extend
> WebAssembly from web to plain old CPUs. There may be others.
> 
> Here's Microsoft's page on WinUI:
> https://github.com/microsoft/microsoft-ui-xaml/blob/master/docs/roadmap.md
> 
> It has details. Timelines. ETAs. Links to GitHub projects. C++ support.
> Places to give feedback. Backwards compatibility. All things that make life
> easier for developers.
> 
> Meanwhile, here is Apple's dev page about SwiftUI:
> https://developer.apple.com/xcode/swiftui/
> 
> It sure looks pretty, but it's totally PR. The bit at the bottom presents
> SwiftUI as a mature and amazing technology for all Apple products (no
> desktop shown, but there's a laptop Mac). Simple past experience (i.e.
> cynicism) suggests that once there's a new tool, the old one is soon
> deprecated and eventually killed. It made things like the dearth of
> documentation and unchanged sample projects seem like foreshadowing.
> There's no timeline listed, but rumors are 2020 for ARM chips. That would
> be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.
> 
> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
> an app and sell it for long enough to get payback. Unfortunately, with
> Apple that means guessing the future from rumor and marketing hype.

Realistically though, Apple has a mountain of code that uses Cocoa for its UI. 
They’re not going to rewrite it all to SwiftUI in the short term. For the same 
reason, Objective-C, C and C++ are going to be supported for a long time yet 
because there are huge piles of code in Apple that rely on it.

Sure, Cocoa will see less in the way of updates, but don’t expect it to 
actually disappear in that 5 year time frame.

Mike.

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Re: Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gabriel Zachmann via Cocoa-dev]

> be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.
> 

I think, eventually, maybe in 5 years' time, that will be the case.
This is really just a guess, I have no insights into Apple's roadmap.

Speaking of which: I have never been there myself, but wouldn't the apple 
engineers
at WWDC share some private, unofficially insights into Apple's future plans?

> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create

I can understand that.

My guess would be that in 5-10 years' time, iPad's (i.e., tablets in general),
will be powerful enough that there won't be any laptop's any more, 
except maybe some rare models for the gamers.
The laptops by that time will essentially be tablets that come with 
pre-installed keyboard.

I am not sure what will happen to the standard desktop market.
OTOH, tablets by that time will be powerful enough that , I guess, 90 % of all 
office applications will run just fine on a tablet.
OTOH, CIO's are usually reluctant to try out new hardware.

That would mean that macOS might go away eventually, too,
because everything will run under iOS.

Best regards, Gabriel


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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Laurent Daudelin via Cocoa-dev]

You know, I was thinking the same when Casey mentioned how long it was taking 
to convert their app to Cocoa...

-Laurent.
-- 

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 14:38, Gary L. Wade via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> If it takes you that long, then you need to hire new developers rather than 
> wasting your time posting complaints on an email list.
> --
> Gary L. Wade
> http://www.garywade.com/
> 
>> On Nov 13, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
>> an app and sell it for long enough to get payback.

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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Gary L. Wade via Cocoa-dev]

If it takes you that long, then you need to hire new developers rather than 
wasting your time posting complaints on an email list.
--
Gary L. Wade
http://www.garywade.com/

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
> an app and sell it for long enough to get payback.

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Re: Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev]

I made a rather bold statement about Cocoa being doomed.  Here's some
background on where it came from.

Apple and Microsoft are both working on next-generation app development
platforms, with the goal of having one dev library for desktop, tablet,
phone and anything else.  Meanwhile, Mozilla also is working to extend
WebAssembly from web to plain old CPUs. There may be others.

Here's Microsoft's page on WinUI:
https://github.com/microsoft/microsoft-ui-xaml/blob/master/docs/roadmap.md

It has details. Timelines. ETAs. Links to GitHub projects. C++ support.
Places to give feedback. Backwards compatibility. All things that make life
easier for developers.

Meanwhile, here is Apple's dev page about SwiftUI:
https://developer.apple.com/xcode/swiftui/

It sure looks pretty, but it's totally PR. The bit at the bottom presents
SwiftUI as a mature and amazing technology for all Apple products (no
desktop shown, but there's a laptop Mac). Simple past experience (i.e.
cynicism) suggests that once there's a new tool, the old one is soon
deprecated and eventually killed. It made things like the dearth of
documentation and unchanged sample projects seem like foreshadowing.
There's no timeline listed, but rumors are 2020 for ARM chips. That would
be a good time for a SwiftUI pivot. If true, Cocoa is the new Carbon.

We have to plan 5 or 10 years ahead, because it takes that long to create
an app and sell it for long enough to get payback. Unfortunately, with
Apple that means guessing the future from rumor and marketing hype.

Even if I'm wrong on this, the uncertainty makes any further Cocoa
development more risky.  On the opposite side, the fact that MFC is still a
valid part of the blueprint makes us more confident.  It means we can keep
using C++ as a respected part of the ecosystem, and gradually update the
GUI when WinUI 3 is mature.

I definitely do not mean to start a MS vs Apple flame war.  Microsoft sucks
in many, many ways.  Their WinUI blueprint may change suddenly, or it may
end up being awful.  Apple and MS are both trillion-dollar companies that
will do whatever it takes to grow even bigger.  TurtleSoft is just an ant,
trying not to be stomped by either of them.

Casey McDermott
TurtleSoft.com
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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Glenn L. Austin via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> Having worked on an Apple cross-platform application that used the same APIs 
> that iTunes use...
>   ...was a nightmare.
> 
> You'd think that it would be easy, but there are so many assumptions about 
> *how* the APIs work and work together to get your code running - and many of 
> those assumptions simply weren't true when running in a Windows environment. 
> We spent a significant amount of time re-writing various APIs used by the 
> application because the RedBox ones we had access to simply didn't work.
> 
> We won't go into the facts that every Windows font size is *exactly* 33% 
> bigger than they are on the Mac (Windows is 96 dpi, Mac is based on 72 dpi: 
> 96/72 = 4/3). Or that a mouse on Windows was less precise but targets were 
> smaller. Or the myriad of other "issues" that make a Windows app just "feel 
> different."
> 

I am no expert, but I am a little confused.

The Cocoa API provides a very broad surface area covering the hosting OS. In 
1994 the OpenStep API (predecessor to Cocoa) ran on NeXTSTEP, Windows NT and 
Solaris.

The Red Box, Blue Box, Yellow Box was 1997.

Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003.

Over the last 16 years would bet that a lot of spit and polish has gone into 
integrating Cocoa with Windows by the iTunes team.

--Richard Charles

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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

[Glenn L. Austin via Cocoa-dev]

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:56 PM, Chris Ridd via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 12 Nov 2019, at 21:14, Jean-Daniel via Cocoa-dev 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Le 12 nov. 2019 à 21:30, Richard Charles via Cocoa-dev 
>>>  a écrit :
>>> 
>>> 
 On Nov 12, 2019, at 1:16 PM, GNDGN  wrote:
 
 ‘It’s like giving a glass of ice water to somebody in hell’ - Jobs
 
>>> 
>>> Apple released iTunes for Windows in October 2003. Apparently Cocoa and any 
>>> supporting frameworks were ported to Windows 16 years ago. So what is the 
>>> problem providing this to outside developers?
>>> 
>>> --Richard Charles
>> 
>> Supporting a public API is far more complex and costlier than supporting 
>> some private frameworks.
>> What would be the benefit for Apple to support public API for Windows ?
> 
> Apple did have the Red Box environment, back in the Rhapsody days. I guess 
> they agreed with you, because it never got released AFAIK. I think it was 
> mostly inherited from Next.
> 
> https://lowendmac.com/1997/red-box-blue-box-yellow-box/ 
> 
> 
> Chris

Having worked on an Apple cross-platform application that used the same APIs 
that iTunes use...
...was a nightmare.

You'd think that it would be easy, but there are so many assumptions about 
*how* the APIs work and work together to get your code running - and many of 
those assumptions simply weren't true when running in a Windows environment. We 
spent a significant amount of time re-writing various APIs used by the 
application because the RedBox ones we had access to simply didn't work.

We won't go into the facts that every Windows font size is *exactly* 33% bigger 
than they are on the Mac (Windows is 96 dpi, Mac is based on 72 dpi: 96/72 = 
4/3). Or that a mouse on Windows was less precise but targets were smaller. Or 
the myriad of other "issues" that make a Windows app just "feel different."

I've written apps in Qt, and it does make the cross-platform app development 
process "easier" - but that's much more from a Windows-centric (or 
Linux-centric) viewpoint. The same is true for WxWidgets. Qt also has a pretty 
significant up-front cost in time and money (WxWidgets is open-source, but 
still has the time investment).

-- 
Glenn L. Austin, Computer Wizard and Race Car Driver <><



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