Re: 64-bit iOS
On Sep 14, 2013, at 16:58 , David Duncan david.dun...@apple.com wrote: On Sep 14, 2013, at 7:37 AM, vipgs99 vipg...@gmail.com wrote: So do I need replace all int to NSInteger? Technically no, but generally you do need to evaluate every usage of data types of a specific width and ensure that in 64-bit mode you won’t exceed the bounds of what an int can store. I’d say use long or NSInteger in APIs, but in storage store only what you actually need. The transition guide actually has one of the examples I ferreted out: using 64 bit integers for every part of a struct representing date components. So 64 bit year, 64 bit month (range 1-12), 64 bit day (range 1-31), 64 bit hour, 64 bit minute, 64 bit second. 64 bit doubles per color component may also be overkill, by about a factor of six. It is more common to err on the safe side instead and simply use NSInteger instead however. Alas, this is true. Marcel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Sep 10, 2013, at 23:47 , Tom Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: Note, this was actually more significant on x86, where most of the mess caused by CISC (like having bugger all registers) got sorted out. ? VAX had 16, M68K had 16, hmm, NS32032 only had 8. I’d say this was a an Intel ’86 problem, not a CISC problem… Marcel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
So do I need replace all int to NSInteger? On 13-9-11 3:50, Fábio Bernardo wrote: I don't get the advantage... What I am missing? — Fábio Bernardo On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote: Well, since nobody else has commented, let me be the first to say: YES! YES! YES! THANK YOU APPLE!! -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/me%40fbernardo.org This email sent to m...@fbernardo.org ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/vipgs99%40gmail.com This email sent to vipg...@gmail.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Sep 14, 2013, at 7:37 AM, vipgs99 vipg...@gmail.com wrote: So do I need replace all int to NSInteger? Technically no, but generally you do need to evaluate every usage of data types of a specific width and ensure that in 64-bit mode you won’t exceed the bounds of what an int can store. It is more common to err on the safe side instead and simply use NSInteger instead however. -- David Duncan ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
There's a transition guide, I'd start by reading that. Good news, Apple has done this twice before and so the instructions are good and the tools are good at pointing out places you may have issues. Bad news, a bit change is hard even if you have used NSInteger, NSUInteger and CGFloat ubiquitously, there's going to be problems. Start with the guide, it's really good. On 14 Sep, 2013, at 10:37 pm, vipgs99 vipg...@gmail.com wrote: So do I need replace all int to NSInteger? On 13-9-11 3:50, Fábio Bernardo wrote: I don't get the advantage... What I am missing? — Fábio Bernardo On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote: Well, since nobody else has commented, let me be the first to say: YES! YES! YES! THANK YOU APPLE!! -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/me%40fbernardo.org This email sent to m...@fbernardo.org ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/vipgs99%40gmail.com This email sent to vipg...@gmail.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/rols%40rols.org This email sent to r...@rols.org ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
You should never be using int in the first place except for API that are already using int, like many libc functions return type. Use the types that fit the API you are using, and if you have to write some API, use types from stdint.h that fit your need. Le 14 sept. 2013 à 16:37, vipgs99 vipg...@gmail.com a écrit : So do I need replace all int to NSInteger? On 13-9-11 3:50, Fábio Bernardo wrote: I don't get the advantage... What I am missing? — Fábio Bernardo On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote: Well, since nobody else has commented, let me be the first to say: YES! YES! YES! THANK YOU APPLE!! -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/me%40fbernardo.org This email sent to m...@fbernardo.org ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/vipgs99%40gmail.com This email sent to vipg...@gmail.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/devlists%40shadowlab.org This email sent to devli...@shadowlab.org -- Jean-Daniel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
I don't get the advantage... What I am missing? — Fábio Bernardo On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote: Well, since nobody else has commented, let me be the first to say: YES! YES! YES! THANK YOU APPLE!! -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/me%40fbernardo.org This email sent to m...@fbernardo.org ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
Most OSX code works on 32 as well as 64bits. I can't say the same for some opensource (Linux) frameworks. And will enlarge the binary size, in my opinion, without any gains. — Fábio Bernardo On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Sean McBride s...@rogue-research.com wrote: On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 20:01:36 +, Abdul Sowayan said: I'm curious, why does 64-bit matter? iPhone memory is still around 1 gig and there is no virtual memory. Until you exceed the 4 gig limit, I don't see why this matters. One thing that pops to mind: it makes portability to/from OS X a little bit easier, since (these days anyway) OS X is mostly 64 bit only. Cheers, -- Sean McBride, B. Eng s...@rogue-research.com Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com Mac Software Developer Montréal, Québec, Canada ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/me%40fbernardo.org This email sent to m...@fbernardo.org ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Sep 10, 2013, at 2:19 PM, Fábio Bernardo m...@fbernardo.org wrote: without any gains Unless, of course, you discuss apps that actually need it ;-) -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
Note: this was just added 2 years ago. So it is relatively a recent change. Yes, most java developers in the enterprise are still using Java 6 or earlier. Sent from my iPad On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:44 AM, Jean-Daniel Dupas devli...@shadowlab.org wrote: This is the contrary. In Obj-c all pointers are effectively double size, but in Java, they are not. See “Compressed oops at http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/vm/performance-enhancements-7.html Le 11 sept. 2013 à 00:18, Paul Franz paul.p.fr...@gmail.com a écrit : Should be interesting to see how this plays out. When it comes to Java, when you switch from a 32-bit JVM to a 64-bit JVM there is a 10% penalty doing so. The main reason has to do with pointers. All pointers double in size. The effect might be less in a Objective-C program. Paul Franz On Sep 10, 2013, at 5:47 PM, Tom Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 Sep 2013, at 23:30, Jean-Daniel Dupas devli...@shadowlab.org wrote: For ARM, 64 bit matters because the instruction set has been updated to provider better performances. I just hope the performance boost provided by this architecture change will be enough to balance the slow-down due to the increase of instruction and pointer size. Note, this was actually more significant on x86, where most of the mess caused by CISC (like having bugger all registers) got sorted out. Tom Davie ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/paul.p.franz%40gmail.com This email sent to paul.p.fr...@gmail.com -- Jean-Daniel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
I really don't get why people are freaking out about this. Apple is continually evolving its OS architecture. That's a good thing. This isn't about Apple only meeting today's needs. This is about Apple preparing to meet tomorrow's needs. I believe we'll start to see a new crop of apps that will find a way to take advantage of the new 64-bit power offered. The arguments being made against 64-bit have been made (in varying degrees) pretty much with every major Apple architectural change. A switch to 64-bit doesn't happen overnight and my guess is that within 2-3 years, every competitive phone will be running some 64-bit chip. And ultimately, I think Apple wants one underlying code-base for itself. OS X is already 64-bit, dropping 32-bit system apps after 10.6. We've seen OS X iOS move ever so closer together and this is part of it. Will it lead to a hybrid ARM-based MacBook Air Touch that can also run iPad apps (ie. no emulation)? Who knows. But this opens up the possibility that didn't exist before. I have no knowledge of that, it's pure speculation to just point at the new possible in an all 64-bit Apple OS universe that probably could not happen otherwise. As for memory concerns (doubling pointer size), I think they could be overblown. You assume more cache misses based on a 64-bit pointer in a 32-bit chip architecture. That's probably not the case. We don't know enough about the A7, but I'd guess that a 64-bit chip architecture is designed to address that. As for binary size increase, I think the big binary increase when you had to include 2x artwork. Based on my experience with OS X, there will be an increase, but it typically won't be huge unless you're app is nothing *but* a list of pointers. Perhaps a bigger hit comes when you've got 32-bit apps that require loading the entire 32-bit system stack when everything else is 64-bit. You're basically loading a 2nd copy of the frameworks for 32-bit apps. That's especially true when you're the *last* 32-bit app on a 64-bit system. And welcome to the world of Apple transitions. Long time Apple developers are quite familiar with this: 24-bit-32-bit, 68K-PPC, Mac OS 8-OS X, PPC-Intel, Carbon-Cocoa, 32bit-64-bit (on Intel), QuickTime - AVFoundation. I'm sure I missed a few there. A few years from now you'll wonder how we ever managed to write software in a tiny 32-bit world. -- Mark Munz unmarked software http://www.unmarked.com/ ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Fábio Bernardo m...@fbernardo.org wrote: Most OSX code works on 32 as well as 64bits. I can't say the same for some opensource (Linux) frameworks. And will enlarge the binary size, in my opinion, without any gains. Not anymore, really; the advent of features such as ARC, the non-fragile ABI, etc. that only work in 64-bit have pretty much led to most new development being for 64-bit only. Charles ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
This is the contrary. In Obj-c all pointers are effectively double size, but in Java, they are not. See “Compressed oops at http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/vm/performance-enhancements-7.html Le 11 sept. 2013 à 00:18, Paul Franz paul.p.fr...@gmail.com a écrit : Should be interesting to see how this plays out. When it comes to Java, when you switch from a 32-bit JVM to a 64-bit JVM there is a 10% penalty doing so. The main reason has to do with pointers. All pointers double in size. The effect might be less in a Objective-C program. Paul Franz On Sep 10, 2013, at 5:47 PM, Tom Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 Sep 2013, at 23:30, Jean-Daniel Dupas devli...@shadowlab.org wrote: For ARM, 64 bit matters because the instruction set has been updated to provider better performances. I just hope the performance boost provided by this architecture change will be enough to balance the slow-down due to the increase of instruction and pointer size. Note, this was actually more significant on x86, where most of the mess caused by CISC (like having bugger all registers) got sorted out. Tom Davie ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/paul.p.franz%40gmail.com This email sent to paul.p.fr...@gmail.com -- Jean-Daniel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
Mostly, this is not going to change anything. You will see your code size increase, because unless you use PIC, you’ll have to store 64-bit addresses instead of 32. There will be more cache misses as your memory space becomes sparse. It will surely run faster, but not because the bus size has been increased, but because the number of GPR is doubled, thereby allowing some optimizations during scheduling and context switching. But what bother me most, is that I don’t really see the point. A smartphone is a phone, it is neither a web server nor a huge database machine nor a supercomputer. Who wants to mmap 5 GiB files on a phone? Which process needs more than 2 GiB at most? Seriously? Will it make you reading your mail faster, loading webpages instantaneously? Will your calendar feel snappier? Besides marketing and advertisement, nobody really needs that amount of power. We’re not going to simulate galaxy dynamics on an iPhone, or derive the flow lines around the next fighter of the US Air Force… The iPhone 3S already delivers a more than sufficient experience for the vast majority of users. Besides, embedded programming is about optimizing and stuffing the most in the tiniest space… Vincent ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
Le 11 sept. 2013 à 11:31, Vincent Habchi vi...@macports.org a écrit : Mostly, this is not going to change anything. You will see your code size increase, because unless you use PIC, you’ll have to store 64-bit addresses instead of 32. There will be more cache misses as your memory space becomes sparse. It will surely run faster, but not because the bus size has been increased, but because the number of GPR is doubled, thereby allowing some optimizations during scheduling and context switching. The increase of GPR is far to be the only architecture change between arm7 and AArch64 (assuming AArch64 is what Apple is using). But what bother me most, is that I don’t really see the point. A smartphone is a phone, it is neither a web server nor a huge database machine nor a supercomputer. Who wants to mmap 5 GiB files on a phone? Which process needs more than 2 GiB at most? Seriously? Will it make you reading your mail faster, loading webpages instantaneously? Will your calendar feel snappier? Besides marketing and advertisement, nobody really needs that amount of power. We’re not going to simulate galaxy dynamics on an iPhone, or derive the flow lines around the next fighter of the US Air Force… The iPhone 3S already delivers a more than sufficient experience for the vast majority of users. Besides, embedded programming is about optimizing and stuffing the most in the tiniest space… Thanks for this remainder, but I think we all already know that 620k is enough for anyone… -- Jean-Daniel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
Thanks for this remainder, but I think we all already know that 620k is enough for anyone… Frankly, Jean-Daniel, I don’t want to get involved in a pointless bickering, but all I need on a phone was almost already running twenty-five years ago on my first Atari 520ST with, yes, 512 KiB of RAM. Cheers! Vincent ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On 11 Sep, 2013, at 5:31 pm, Vincent Habchi vi...@macports.org wrote: But what bother me most, is that I don’t really see the point. A smartphone is a phone, it is neither a web server nor a huge database machine nor a supercomputer. Who wants to mmap 5 GiB files on a phone? Which process needs more than 2 GiB at most? Seriously? I see this as one step in a process. 64 bit architecture will trickle down from power chips to mobile chips just the way other changes have. There's sense in standardising on one architecture throughout the line, especially with the interoperability of large parts of OSX and iOS and who can say whether some grandchild of the chips we have in the mobile devices will end up powering the next range of multi-core mac pros or some other device. 64 bit is where it's going across the board, all chips will follow. Remembering the conversion to 64 bit in OSX, this doesn't happen overnight. Apps stay in the appstore and run on old hardware for years. I just read the transition guide and took a deep breath, never fun, it'll be quite a while before 64 bit apps are the norm and so it seems like a good plan to start biting the bullet now there's the first chip which supports it so that when 32 bit is ready to go away, most everything will be ready for the future. I'm not sure the examples of 4Gb mmap()ed files and huge processes on mobile devices are necessarily the best examples. There are speed advantages you can gain, a match between processor hardware and GPU hardware helps there too, if I can get 10% or more extra power out of one core, that delays the day I have to add another one. Anyway I see this as future proofing and a drive towards convergence of hardware and software to one architecture. I sure hope 64 bit lasts longer than some of the previous ones when we all get there, I really don't want to have to figure out what a long long long long long long long long int is before I hang up my keyboard. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Jean-Daniel Dupas devli...@shadowlab.orgwrote: Thanks for this remainder, but I think we all already know that 620k is enough for anyone… Well, I must confess I didn't know that. I thought 640k was required. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
Scott, No, but it's great to device to access data, perhaps even bits pulled out from a huge pile, and preferably pulled out extremely quickly. And, anyway, why shouldn't it be a huge database machine??? I meant, it is not designed to serve as a database machine. I can’t possibly imagine PostGreSQL running on an iPhone, for example, and serving thousand of requests per second… As I said earlier, 64-bit enables techniques that are not practical in 32-bit, because you won't run out of address space due to fragmentation. 64-bit address space might mask fragmentation at the virtual memory level, but you will probably experience it at the real memory level, i.e. after the MMU; the more so, since iOS does not support swapping. How much memory does the iPhone 5S have? More than 4 GiB? Probably not. I fear many people will think that with 64-bit pointers they get a lot of usable space, and then see their code crippled by low memory warnings. Aside from this, I concur it might be handier for Apple to converge all its platforms to 64-bits. Vincent ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On 11 Sep, 2013, at 11:01 pm, Vincent Habchi vi...@macports.org wrote: Probably not. I fear many people will think that with 64-bit pointers they get a lot of usable space, and then see their code crippled by low memory warnings. The conversion guide makes a particular point about memory pressure on small devices when code moves to 64 bit. This is definitely going to be something developers have to think about and use the tools to work out where memory is suffering. I think Apple knows this but has gone there anyway. Still standing by my last mail about how this is a good early step towards 64 bit and will eventually be the right move, i think without 2x the memory on-device and with the different memory issues involved in a larger address space, there's going to be some struggling at the start. ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Sep 10, 2013, at 2:01 PM, Abdul Sowayan asowa...@vectorworks.net wrote: I'm curious, why does 64-bit matter? iPhone memory is still around 1 gig and there is no virtual memory. Until you exceed the 4 gig limit, I don't see why this matters. Fragmentation of address space dealing with large blocks... And it's not really a 4GB limit, since there has to be a big chunk (likely 1GB) of address space reserved for the kernel. Of course there's a vast variety of apps for which this does not matter at all. But 64-bit makes available some really powerful techniques that are impractical otherwise. Also, wouldn't it be nice if tech writers knew anything about their subject? I got $20 right here that sez the A7 has more than 2 general-purpose registers--anybody want to take that bet ;-) (Maybe somebody doesn't know the difference between a register and a core???) -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
Should be interesting to see how this plays out. When it comes to Java, when you switch from a 32-bit JVM to a 64-bit JVM there is a 10% penalty doing so. The main reason has to do with pointers. All pointers double in size. The effect might be less in a Objective-C program. Paul Franz On Sep 10, 2013, at 5:47 PM, Tom Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 Sep 2013, at 23:30, Jean-Daniel Dupas devli...@shadowlab.org wrote: For ARM, 64 bit matters because the instruction set has been updated to provider better performances. I just hope the performance boost provided by this architecture change will be enough to balance the slow-down due to the increase of instruction and pointer size. Note, this was actually more significant on x86, where most of the mess caused by CISC (like having bugger all registers) got sorted out. Tom Davie ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/paul.p.franz%40gmail.com This email sent to paul.p.fr...@gmail.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
For ARM, 64 bit matters because the instruction set has been updated to provider better performances. I just hope the performance boost provided by this architecture change will be enough to balance the slow-down due to the increase of instruction and pointer size. Le 10 sept. 2013 à 22:01, Abdul Sowayan asowa...@vectorworks.net a écrit : Scott, I'm curious, why does 64-bit matter? iPhone memory is still around 1 gig and there is no virtual memory. Until you exceed the 4 gig limit, I don't see why this matters. Abdul Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.commailto:scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote: Well, since nobody else has commented, let me be the first to say: YES! YES! YES! THANK YOU APPLE!! -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.commailto:scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.commailto:Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.comhttp://lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/asowayan%40vectorworks.net This email sent to asowa...@vectorworks.netmailto:asowa...@vectorworks.net ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/devlists%40shadowlab.org This email sent to devli...@shadowlab.org -- Jean-Daniel ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
If we have hardware (registers) and software support for 64bit, doesn't that mean the device can perform more calculations per CPU cycle? Some operations that would have taken 2 cycles may now be done in one. Surely that leads to a performance boost, right? On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Abdul Sowayan asowa...@vectorworks.netwrote: Scott, I'm curious, why does 64-bit matter? iPhone memory is still around 1 gig and there is no virtual memory. Until you exceed the 4 gig limit, I don't see why this matters. Abdul Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com mailto:scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote: Well, since nobody else has commented, let me be the first to say: YES! YES! YES! THANK YOU APPLE!! -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.commailto:scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.commailto: Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com http://lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/asowayan%40vectorworks.net This email sent to asowa...@vectorworks.netmailto: asowa...@vectorworks.net ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/spam%40dixondata.com This email sent to s...@dixondata.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
64-bit iOS
Well, since nobody else has commented, let me be the first to say: YES! YES! YES! THANK YOU APPLE!! -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On 10 Sep 2013, at 23:30, Jean-Daniel Dupas devli...@shadowlab.org wrote: For ARM, 64 bit matters because the instruction set has been updated to provider better performances. I just hope the performance boost provided by this architecture change will be enough to balance the slow-down due to the increase of instruction and pointer size. Note, this was actually more significant on x86, where most of the mess caused by CISC (like having bugger all registers) got sorted out. Tom Davie ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
Scott, I'm curious, why does 64-bit matter? iPhone memory is still around 1 gig and there is no virtual memory. Until you exceed the 4 gig limit, I don't see why this matters. Abdul Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.commailto:scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote: Well, since nobody else has commented, let me be the first to say: YES! YES! YES! THANK YOU APPLE!! -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.commailto:scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.commailto:Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.comhttp://lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/asowayan%40vectorworks.net This email sent to asowa...@vectorworks.netmailto:asowa...@vectorworks.net ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 20:01:36 +, Abdul Sowayan said: I'm curious, why does 64-bit matter? iPhone memory is still around 1 gig and there is no virtual memory. Until you exceed the 4 gig limit, I don't see why this matters. One thing that pops to mind: it makes portability to/from OS X a little bit easier, since (these days anyway) OS X is mostly 64 bit only. Cheers, -- Sean McBride, B. Eng s...@rogue-research.com Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com Mac Software Developer Montréal, Québec, Canada ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Sep 10, 2013, at 2:39 PM, Joseph Dixon s...@dixondata.com wrote: Some operations that would have taken 2 cycles may now be done in one. Some. Probably not many. Surely that leads to a performance boost, right? Maybe, maybe not. The flip side is that pointers are twice as large, so half as many fit in cache. -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On 10 Sep 2013, at 22:48, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote: On Sep 10, 2013, at 2:39 PM, Joseph Dixon s...@dixondata.com wrote: Some operations that would have taken 2 cycles may now be done in one. Some. Probably not many. Surely that leads to a performance boost, right? Maybe, maybe not. The flip side is that pointers are twice as large, so half as many fit in cache. And off when you do need to hit RAM you need to fetch more data. Tom Davie ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
When you use the system call mmap(2) to map in a huge file you will find it useful. Sent from my iPhone On 2013年9月11日, at 4:01, Abdul Sowayan asowa...@vectorworks.net wrote: Scott, I'm curious, why does 64-bit matter? iPhone memory is still around 1 gig and there is no virtual memory. Until you exceed the 4 gig limit, I don't see why this matters. Abdul Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.commailto:scott_r...@elevated-dev.com wrote: Well, since nobody else has commented, let me be the first to say: YES! YES! YES! THANK YOU APPLE!! -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.commailto:scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.commailto:Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.comhttp://lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/asowayan%40vectorworks.net This email sent to asowa...@vectorworks.netmailto:asowa...@vectorworks.net ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/xcvista%40me.com This email sent to xcvi...@me.com ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:03 PM, Maxthon Chan xcvi...@me.com wrote: When you use the system call mmap(2) to map in a huge file you will find it useful. Especially if you want to map more than one, unmap one, mmap another, and so on ;-) -- Scott Ribe scott_r...@elevated-dev.com http://www.elevated-dev.com/ (303) 722-0567 voice ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
On Sep 11, 2013, at 12:03 AM, Maxthon Chan wrote: When you use the system call mmap(2) to map in a huge file you will find it useful. How so? ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 64-bit iOS
When you map in a file, its contents will consume address space of your application. When the file is bigger than 3 GiB, since there is no more bits on the address lines, you will not be able to map the file in completely all in once. On Sep 11, 2013, at 12:37, Alex Zavatone z...@mac.com wrote: On Sep 11, 2013, at 12:03 AM, Maxthon Chan wrote: When you use the system call mmap(2) to map in a huge file you will find it useful. How so? ___ Cocoa-dev mailing list (Cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com) Please do not post admin requests or moderator comments to the list. Contact the moderators at cocoa-dev-admins(at)lists.apple.com Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/cocoa-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
