Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Tom Klaasen]

Matthew Langham wrote:

>Thee hee :-)
>Now do the same for "Marco Spinetti" on cocoon-dev :-P
><<
>Tom et al.,
>
>I do think this thread has gone far enough - can we get back to Cocoon'ing
>again? We are all part of the community - and that includes all the lurkers
>out there - and we know you are :-)
>
>  
>
Cool.

For the record: I don't have anything against lurkers (I am one myself 
-- occassionally on this list, and certainly on other lists). We can 
only benefit from them. They're the people using cocoon, and without 
users, no software project has a goal.


My sincere apologies for not being able to resist the reply-button.


Back to work!


tomK


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RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Matthew Langham]

>>
Thee hee :-)
Now do the same for "Marco Spinetti" on cocoon-dev :-P
<<
Tom et al.,

I do think this thread has gone far enough - can we get back to Cocoon'ing
again? We are all part of the community - and that includes all the lurkers
out there - and we know you are :-)

Ok?

Matthew

--
Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
-
Cocoon book:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
=




-Original Message-
From: Tom Klaasen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:28 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

>On Wednesday 22 May 2002 11:18, marco spinetti wrote (about Matthew
Langham)
>
>
>>. . .
>>Are you a member of people that created Cocoon?
>>. . .
>>
>>
>
>Well, that's an easy one to answer if you do your homework. For example, a
>quick search on the mailing list archives at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com
>could tell you how much Matthew has been contributing to Cocoon (like
>"Donating Portal and Authentication Components to the Cocoon project" ;-)
>
>

Thee hee :-)
Now do the same for "Marco Spinetti" on cocoon-dev :-P


tomK



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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Sylvain Wallez]

Matthew Langham wrote:

>I was going to refrain from commenting...
>
>Anyone who believes (or thinks) that an open source project can survive
>without commercial support is far removed from "the real world". The number
>of people working on open source project "just for the fun" or "to scratch
>that itch" is IMO very small. In fact it is my opinion that any open source
>project - without some form of integrated (!) commercial backing will fail
>in the end.
>
>Before we (as a company) decided to get involved with Cocoon and the open
>source arena we had a discussion with Stefano on exactly this subject. His
>opinion (and this is something I think is sooo true) is that using open
>source software commercially - without "giving back" will eventually lead to
>you (as a company - or person) being shouted down in the community.
>
>Now there are various ways to give back to a project - as we discussed with
>Stefano:
>
>* Contributing Patches and Bug Fixes
>* Donating components that were previously part of a product
>* Actively working on the project
>* Taking over a role in the project
>* Testing the software and publishing your findings
>* Writing documentation
>* Writing articles to get the project "noticed"
>* Presenting at conferences to get the project "noticed"
>* Writing books to help anyone who wants to use the software
>
>And probably many more
>
>Well - guess what - we as a company (and Carsten and myself in particular)
>have done all that in the past 2 years. And we still do. Every day.
>
>And (thankfully) we are not alone. There are many great (commercially
>orientated) people out there who are helping to move Cocoon forward. The
>fact that the Apache licence allows this is one of the reasons Apache
>projects are so successful and widely renowned.
>
>The more commercial support Cocoon receives - whether in projects, books,
>products based on Cocoon - the more successful it will become.
>
>Matthew
>  
>

I fully share this view.

An important dimension that should be taken into account is time : if I 
wasn't allowed by my company to give some of my time to Cocoon, I would 
never have been able to contribute all that I have contributed. Yes, I 
also take on my spare time for Cocoon because I love it and it's fun, 
but my wife and children limit this time ;)

And time is money. So many companies give money to Apache projects 
through people's time, and allowing commercial use of these projects is 
a way for Apache to pay back. This explains the high quality of all the 
stuff you can find here.

My view on opensource is this one : many people, which can be business 
competitors in the "real" world, join forces to build something that 
none of them could have built alone. And everyone (including 
non-contributors) can take this and make money with it by adding value 
on top of it through products, consulting, books, training, etc.

Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Wallez
  Anyware Technologies  Apache Cocoon
  http://www.anyware-tech.com   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Tom Klaasen]

Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

>On Wednesday 22 May 2002 11:18, marco spinetti wrote (about Matthew Langham)
>  
>
>>. . .
>>Are you a member of people that created Cocoon?
>>. . .
>>
>>
>
>Well, that's an easy one to answer if you do your homework. For example, a 
>quick search on the mailing list archives at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com 
>could tell you how much Matthew has been contributing to Cocoon (like 
>"Donating Portal and Authentication Components to the Cocoon project" ;-)
>  
>

Thee hee :-)
Now do the same for "Marco Spinetti" on cocoon-dev :-P


tomK



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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Sylvain Wallez]

Bert Van Kets wrote:

> Ah, I definitely need to brush up my understanding of the license 
> agreements.
> Darn, I hate those legal texts.
> Does anybody know a good site where all the different license 
> agreements are explained in English?
> Bert


Check out http://opensource.org/licenses/

Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Wallez
  Anyware Technologies  Apache Cocoon
  http://www.anyware-tech.com   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>
>
>My e-mail is for pointing out that all our actions should be done only for
>the improvement of cocoon. We all love cocoon: I have seen some people's
>names for almost two years in the Cooon User List.
>  
>
Dude, using Cocoon commercially for your own benifit, benefits Cocoon. 
 Writing a book and keeping the measly profit (that is in no way 
adequate compensation for the time and effort taken to write such a 
book), seriously benefits Cocoon.

>If the book, as I hope, is published for promoting Cocoon, for improving it,
>well I am proud to know Carsten and Matthew and I applaud them.
>  
>
And I hope they make some serious Benjamins (or whatever the appropriate 
European slang term is for cash) in the process.  Though fat chance of that.

Don't get GNU-brainwashed, not everyone believes benefitting financially 
from opensource is immoral.

-Andy

>
>
>Marco
>
>+---+
>Software engineer  Spinetti Marco
>Italy
>+---+
>
>
>
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Konstantin Piroumian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 1:36 PM
>Subject: Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
>
>
>  
>
>>From: "marco spinetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>
>>
>>>One question: is the profit for the apache software foundation (ASF)?
>>>
>>>If not, in my opinion it's against the open source apache philosophy.
>>>
>>>Cocoon is borned as open source project and then all is free.
>>>  
>>>
>>Yes, you don't pay to use Cocoon. But nobody prevents you to provide
>>commersial support for it. More over, if I understand the Apache license
>>correctly: you can even modify it and distribute if the license conditions
>>are met.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Are you a member of people that created Cocoon?
>>>  
>>>
>>Don't tell this to Carsten Ziegeler [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] - Cocoon's
>>Release Manager - who is the co-author of the book. And Matthew Langham
>>[[EMAIL PROTECTED]] is his boss, if my information is correct, aren't
>>
>>
>you
>  
>
>>Matthew? ;).
>>
>>
>>
>>>Have you received the assent from ASF or people as Stefano Mazzocchi?
>>>
>>>If yes all is ok, otherwise in my opinion you are speculating on Cocoon.
>>>  
>>>
>>Hm... In this case we are all speculating on Cocoon: one uses it to make
>>easier his paid work, another one to get some profit from consulting, the
>>thirds are writing books and every usage of Cocoon directly or indirectly
>>pays back to the community by promoting Cocoon, improving it, etc.
>>
>>Konstantin
>>
>>
>>
>>>Marco
>>>
>>>
>>>+---+
>>>Software engineer  Spinetti Marco
>>>Italy
>>>+-+
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>- Original Message -
>>>From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:02 AM
>>>Subject: RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Paul
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
>>>accurate?
>>><<
>>>Yes.
>>>
>>>Matthew
>>>
>>>--
>>>Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
>>>=
>>>Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
>>>Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
>>>-
>>>Cocoon book:
>>>  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
>>>=
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: Paul Chisholm [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:54 AM
>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>Subject: Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Matthew,
>>>
>>>I'm new to Cocoon but have many years software engineering experience. I
>>&g

Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

For Apache license:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html

Say, why isn't there an ApacheForge?
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


- Original Message -
From: "Lajos Moczar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> For GPL/LGPL, see http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/
>
> Regards,
>
> Lajos
> galatea.com
>
> Bert Van Kets wrote:
>
> > Ah, I definitely need to brush up my understanding of the license
> > agreements.
> > Darn, I hate those legal texts.
> > Does anybody know a good site where all the different license agreements
> > are explained in English?
> > Bert
> >
> > At 14:43 22/05/2002 +0200, you wrote:
> >
> >> >De: Bert Van Kets [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >> >
> >> >My opinion exactly!
> >> >Open Source survives because it is used in a commercial world.
> >> > Let this be the "Paradox of Open Source".
> >> >Bert
> >>
> >> IM(H)O, this is not a paradox at all. This is a paradox for "free"
> >> license
> >> (GPL) project, but not for apache. Too many people make a confusion
> >> between
> >> *Open* Source and *Communist* Source :)
> >>
> >>
> >> fabien.
> >>
> >> -
> >> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> >> FAQ before posting. 
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. 
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> >
> >
>
>
>
> -
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RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Andre Cusson]

Hi Matthew,

I've been developing software for 3 decades. I love XSLT.  Cocoon is dynamic
(pipelined) XML/XSLT.
I would be happy to read and comment your book.

andre cusson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



-Message d'origine-
De : Matthew Langham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Envoye : 22 mai, 2002 02:36
A : [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Objet : Cocoon book reviewers wanted


Hi,

together with our publisher (www.newriders.com), we are looking for people
interested in reviewing chapters from our book. Hopefully you will have
something positive to say and then your quote may be used in the book or to
promote it.

If you would be interested then please send me an email. Please note that we
will only be able to suggest (!!) reviewers - our publisher will choose. And
probably only a few of those in the end.

Thanks

Matthew

--
Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
-
Cocoon book:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
=



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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Brian Blakeley]

Sorry, this was a mistake - mouse got away from me. Bad Mouse!

Brian


- Original Message -
From: "Brian Blakeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 2:35 AM
> Subject: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > together with our publisher (www.newriders.com), we are looking for
people
> > interested in reviewing chapters from our book. Hopefully you will have
> > something positive to say and then your quote may be used in the book or
> to
> > promote it.
> >
> > If you would be interested then please send me an email. Please note
that
> we
> > will only be able to suggest (!!) reviewers - our publisher will choose.
> And
> > probably only a few of those in the end.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Matthew
> >
> > --
> > Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> > =
> > Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> > Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
> > -
> > Cocoon book:
> >   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> > =
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Lajos Moczar]

For GPL/LGPL, see http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/

Regards,

Lajos
galatea.com

Bert Van Kets wrote:

> Ah, I definitely need to brush up my understanding of the license 
> agreements.
> Darn, I hate those legal texts.
> Does anybody know a good site where all the different license agreements 
> are explained in English?
> Bert
> 
> At 14:43 22/05/2002 +0200, you wrote:
> 
>> >De: Bert Van Kets [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> >
>> >My opinion exactly!
>> >Open Source survives because it is used in a commercial world.
>> > Let this be the "Paradox of Open Source".
>> >Bert
>>
>> IM(H)O, this is not a paradox at all. This is a paradox for "free" 
>> license
>> (GPL) project, but not for apache. Too many people make a confusion 
>> between
>> *Open* Source and *Communist* Source :)
>>
>>
>> fabien.
>>
>> -
>> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
>> FAQ before posting. 
>>
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
> 
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> 
> 



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RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Bert Van Kets]

Ah, I definitely need to brush up my understanding of the license agreements.
Darn, I hate those legal texts.
Does anybody know a good site where all the different license agreements 
are explained in English?
Bert

At 14:43 22/05/2002 +0200, you wrote:
> >De: Bert Van Kets [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >
> >My opinion exactly!
> >Open Source survives because it is used in a commercial world.
> > Let this be the "Paradox of Open Source".
> >Bert
>
>IM(H)O, this is not a paradox at all. This is a paradox for "free" license
>(GPL) project, but not for apache. Too many people make a confusion between
>*Open* Source and *Communist* Source :)
>
>
>fabien.
>
>-
>Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
>FAQ before posting. 
>
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Brian Blakeley]

- Original Message -
From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 2:35 AM
Subject: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


> Hi,
>
> together with our publisher (www.newriders.com), we are looking for people
> interested in reviewing chapters from our book. Hopefully you will have
> something positive to say and then your quote may be used in the book or
to
> promote it.
>
> If you would be interested then please send me an email. Please note that
we
> will only be able to suggest (!!) reviewers - our publisher will choose.
And
> probably only a few of those in the end.
>
> Thanks
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> =
> Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
> -
> Cocoon book:
>   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> =
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[TREGAN Fabien]

>De: Bert Van Kets [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
>My opinion exactly!
>Open Source survives because it is used in a commercial world. 
> Let this be the "Paradox of Open Source".
>Bert

IM(H)O, this is not a paradox at all. This is a paradox for "free" license
(GPL) project, but not for apache. Too many people make a confusion between
*Open* Source and *Communist* Source :)


fabien.

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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "marco spinetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> One question: is the profit for the apache software foundation (ASF)?
>
> If not, in my opinion it's against the open source apache philosophy.

The opensource Apache philosophy?
There's a *big* misunderstanding here on what Apache is all about.

Apache is widely known to be very pragmatic on these issues; maybe you are
confused by another foundation that wants freedom for code.

We want community.

> Cocoon is borned as open source project and then all is free.
> Are you a member of people that created Cocoon?
> Have you received the assent from ASF or people as Stefano Mazzocchi?

You don't need it. This is the force of the Apache license, we will never
tie you to us.

> If yes all is ok, otherwise in my opinion you are speculating on Cocoon.

The contrary.

We want projects to be used and become succesfull; the important thing is
creating a market, not getting money back directly.

Apache opensource projects' biggest goal is having commercial backing, and
the license is made to have this happen.
You can do whatever you want with it as long as you say you are using our
work and you don't sue us for problems.

Just do it, and give us credit.

If you give back, good.
If you don't, you're still helping us gain market share.
In any case, we both win.

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Bert Van Kets]

My opinion exactly!
Open Source survives because it is used in a commercial world.  Let this be 
the "Paradox of Open Source".
Bert

At 14:09 22/05/2002 +0200, you wrote:
>I was going to refrain from commenting...
>
>Anyone who believes (or thinks) that an open source project can survive
>without commercial support is far removed from "the real world". The number
>of people working on open source project "just for the fun" or "to scratch
>that itch" is IMO very small. In fact it is my opinion that any open source
>project - without some form of integrated (!) commercial backing will fail
>in the end.
>
>Before we (as a company) decided to get involved with Cocoon and the open
>source arena we had a discussion with Stefano on exactly this subject. His
>opinion (and this is something I think is sooo true) is that using open
>source software commercially - without "giving back" will eventually lead to
>you (as a company - or person) being shouted down in the community.
>
>Now there are various ways to give back to a project - as we discussed with
>Stefano:
>
>* Contributing Patches and Bug Fixes
>* Donating components that were previously part of a product
>* Actively working on the project
>* Taking over a role in the project
>* Testing the software and publishing your findings
>* Writing documentation
>* Writing articles to get the project "noticed"
>* Presenting at conferences to get the project "noticed"
>* Writing books to help anyone who wants to use the software
>
>And probably many more
>
>Well - guess what - we as a company (and Carsten and myself in particular)
>have done all that in the past 2 years. And we still do. Every day.
>
>And (thankfully) we are not alone. There are many great (commercially
>orientated) people out there who are helping to move Cocoon forward. The
>fact that the Apache licence allows this is one of the reasons Apache
>projects are so successful and widely renowned.
>
>The more commercial support Cocoon receives - whether in projects, books,
>products based on Cocoon - the more successful it will become.
>
>Matthew
>
>--
>Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
>=
>Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
>Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
>-
>Cocoon book:
>   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
>=
>
>
>
>-
>Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
>FAQ before posting. 
>
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[marco spinetti]

Ok,

I agree with your answer. I know who are Carsten Ziegeler and Matthew
Langham. I know that they are very important persons for Cocoon (as many
others are).

> Hm... In this case we are all speculating on Cocoon: one uses it to make
> easier his paid work, another one to get some profit from consulting, the
> thirds are writing books and every usage of Cocoon directly or indirectly
> pays back to the community by promoting Cocoon, improving it, etc.

My e-mail is for pointing out that all our actions should be done only for
the improvement of cocoon. We all love cocoon: I have seen some people's
names for almost two years in the Cooon User List.

If the book, as I hope, is published for promoting Cocoon, for improving it,
well I am proud to know Carsten and Matthew and I applaud them.



Marco

+---+
Software engineer  Spinetti Marco
Italy
+---+





- Original Message -
From: "Konstantin Piroumian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


> From: "marco spinetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > One question: is the profit for the apache software foundation (ASF)?
> >
> > If not, in my opinion it's against the open source apache philosophy.
> >
> > Cocoon is borned as open source project and then all is free.
>
> Yes, you don't pay to use Cocoon. But nobody prevents you to provide
> commersial support for it. More over, if I understand the Apache license
> correctly: you can even modify it and distribute if the license conditions
> are met.
>
> >
> > Are you a member of people that created Cocoon?
>
> Don't tell this to Carsten Ziegeler [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] - Cocoon's
> Release Manager - who is the co-author of the book. And Matthew Langham
> [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] is his boss, if my information is correct, aren't
you
> Matthew? ;).
>
> > Have you received the assent from ASF or people as Stefano Mazzocchi?
> >
> > If yes all is ok, otherwise in my opinion you are speculating on Cocoon.
>
> Hm... In this case we are all speculating on Cocoon: one uses it to make
> easier his paid work, another one to get some profit from consulting, the
> thirds are writing books and every usage of Cocoon directly or indirectly
> pays back to the community by promoting Cocoon, improving it, etc.
>
> Konstantin
>
> >
> >
> > Marco
> >
> >
> > +---+
> > Software engineer  Spinetti Marco
> > Italy
> > +---------+
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:02 AM
> > Subject: RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
> >
> >
> > Hi Paul
> >
> > >>
> > By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
> > accurate?
> > <<
> > Yes.
> >
> > Matthew
> >
> > --
> > Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> > =
> > Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> > Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
> > -
> > Cocoon book:
> >   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> > =
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Paul Chisholm [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:54 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
> >
> >
> > Hi Matthew,
> >
> > I'm new to Cocoon but have many years software engineering experience. I
> > assume your book is of an introductory nature and, if so, I would be
keen
> to
> > review some chapters.
> >
> > By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
> > accurate?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:35 PM
> > Subject: 

RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Matthew Langham]

I was going to refrain from commenting...

Anyone who believes (or thinks) that an open source project can survive
without commercial support is far removed from "the real world". The number
of people working on open source project "just for the fun" or "to scratch
that itch" is IMO very small. In fact it is my opinion that any open source
project - without some form of integrated (!) commercial backing will fail
in the end.

Before we (as a company) decided to get involved with Cocoon and the open
source arena we had a discussion with Stefano on exactly this subject. His
opinion (and this is something I think is sooo true) is that using open
source software commercially - without "giving back" will eventually lead to
you (as a company - or person) being shouted down in the community.

Now there are various ways to give back to a project - as we discussed with
Stefano:

* Contributing Patches and Bug Fixes
* Donating components that were previously part of a product
* Actively working on the project
* Taking over a role in the project
* Testing the software and publishing your findings
* Writing documentation
* Writing articles to get the project "noticed"
* Presenting at conferences to get the project "noticed"
* Writing books to help anyone who wants to use the software

And probably many more

Well - guess what - we as a company (and Carsten and myself in particular)
have done all that in the past 2 years. And we still do. Every day.

And (thankfully) we are not alone. There are many great (commercially
orientated) people out there who are helping to move Cocoon forward. The
fact that the Apache licence allows this is one of the reasons Apache
projects are so successful and widely renowned.

The more commercial support Cocoon receives - whether in projects, books,
products based on Cocoon - the more successful it will become.

Matthew

--
Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
-
Cocoon book:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
=



-
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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Wednesday 22 May 2002 11:18, marco spinetti wrote (about Matthew Langham)
>. . .
> Are you a member of people that created Cocoon?
>. . .

Well, that's an easy one to answer if you do your homework. For example, a 
quick search on the mailing list archives at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com 
could tell you how much Matthew has been contributing to Cocoon (like 
"Donating Portal and Authentication Components to the Cocoon project" ;-)

-Bertrand

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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Konstantin Piroumian]

From: "marco spinetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> One question: is the profit for the apache software foundation (ASF)?
>
> If not, in my opinion it's against the open source apache philosophy.
>
> Cocoon is borned as open source project and then all is free.

Yes, you don't pay to use Cocoon. But nobody prevents you to provide
commersial support for it. More over, if I understand the Apache license
correctly: you can even modify it and distribute if the license conditions
are met.

>
> Are you a member of people that created Cocoon?

Don't tell this to Carsten Ziegeler [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] - Cocoon's
Release Manager - who is the co-author of the book. And Matthew Langham
[[EMAIL PROTECTED]] is his boss, if my information is correct, aren't you
Matthew? ;).

> Have you received the assent from ASF or people as Stefano Mazzocchi?
>
> If yes all is ok, otherwise in my opinion you are speculating on Cocoon.

Hm... In this case we are all speculating on Cocoon: one uses it to make
easier his paid work, another one to get some profit from consulting, the
thirds are writing books and every usage of Cocoon directly or indirectly
pays back to the community by promoting Cocoon, improving it, etc.

Konstantin

>
>
> Marco
>
>
> +---+
> Software engineer  Spinetti Marco
> Italy
> +-+
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:02 AM
> Subject: RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
>
>
> Hi Paul
>
> >>
> By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
> accurate?
> <<
> Yes.
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> =
> Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
> -
> Cocoon book:
>   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> =========
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Chisholm [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:54 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
>
>
> Hi Matthew,
>
> I'm new to Cocoon but have many years software engineering experience. I
> assume your book is of an introductory nature and, if so, I would be keen
to
> review some chapters.
>
> By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
> accurate?
>
> Paul
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:35 PM
> Subject: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > together with our publisher (www.newriders.com), we are looking for
people
> > interested in reviewing chapters from our book. Hopefully you will have
> > something positive to say and then your quote may be used in the book or
> to
> > promote it.
> >
> > If you would be interested then please send me an email. Please note
that
> we
> > will only be able to suggest (!!) reviewers - our publisher will choose.
> And
> > probably only a few of those in the end.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Matthew
> >
> > --
> > Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> > =
> > Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> > Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
> > -
> > Cocoon book:
> >   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> > =
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
>
>
> --

Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Conrad F. D'Cruz]

Marco,

I disagree very strongly with your philosophy.  Open source software
needs as much advertisement and sponsorship from outside the the developer
community.  A technology will gain acceptance if it is documented and
placed within easy access of as big a community outside the immediate
developer community.  Often times the developers are too busy creating
the system which means user documentation are done at a later time.  Most book
projects are started during a period when there is interest in the project
and the documentation is not yet ready.

In addition to the documentation, it helps to have tutorials and regular
textbooks that make it easy for those who are outside the circle
of developers/contributors/testers to come up to speed and adopt the
new technology.

There are not many publishers who would get involved in the opensource
movement if there were no financial rewards in it for them.  If there was
that restriction, opensource projects would be the worlds best kept secret!!

It is also true that the authors do not become rich writing the book(s),
so in a way they are contributing to the success of the project too.  I am quite

sure there are publishers who in turn make contributions to the ASF in order
to sponsor the movement.  Anybody have information on which publishers
sponsor or contribute to the ASF?

My opinions aside ... could any of the developers on the list clarify
Marco's comments below? "Have you received the assent from ASF
or people as Stefano Mazzocchi?"  If so is there a formal process to get this
assent?

You don't have to be a member of the developer community to create documentation

on any of the open source projects.  Writing a book on it is a form of
documentation and
spreading the word.  It is not speculation ... just a form of marketing!!  A
well formatted
and presented book from a well know publisher goes a long way in selling the
concept
and product which no HTML or PDF user docs or faqs can achieve.

I too am involved with a group writing a book on Cocoon2 programming which is
due
out in October. Some initial details are at
http://www.netswirl.com/publications.htm
A full web description will be available on the Sybex web site soon.

Conrad D'Cruz

marco spinetti wrote:

> One question: is the profit for the apache software foundation (ASF)?
>
> If not, in my opinion it's against the open source apache philosophy.
>
> Cocoon is borned as open source project and then all is free.
>
> Are you a member of people that created Cocoon?
> Have you received the assent from ASF or people as Stefano Mazzocchi?
>
> If yes all is ok, otherwise in my opinion you are speculating on Cocoon.
>
> Marco
>
> +---+
> Software engineer  Spinetti Marco
> Italy
> +-+


-
Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[marco spinetti]

One question: is the profit for the apache software foundation (ASF)?

If not, in my opinion it's against the open source apache philosophy.

Cocoon is borned as open source project and then all is free.

Are you a member of people that created Cocoon?
Have you received the assent from ASF or people as Stefano Mazzocchi?

If yes all is ok, otherwise in my opinion you are speculating on Cocoon.


Marco


+---+
Software engineer  Spinetti Marco
Italy
+-+




- Original Message -
From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


Hi Paul

>>
By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
accurate?
<<
Yes.

Matthew

--
Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
-
Cocoon book:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
=



-Original Message-
From: Paul Chisholm [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


Hi Matthew,

I'm new to Cocoon but have many years software engineering experience. I
assume your book is of an introductory nature and, if so, I would be keen to
review some chapters.

By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
accurate?

Paul

- Original Message -
From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:35 PM
Subject: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


> Hi,
>
> together with our publisher (www.newriders.com), we are looking for people
> interested in reviewing chapters from our book. Hopefully you will have
> something positive to say and then your quote may be used in the book or
to
> promote it.
>
> If you would be interested then please send me an email. Please note that
we
> will only be able to suggest (!!) reviewers - our publisher will choose.
And
> probably only a few of those in the end.
>
> Thanks
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> =
> Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
> -
> Cocoon book:
>   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> =
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Matthew Langham]

Hi Paul

>>
By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
accurate?
<<
Yes.

Matthew

--
Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
-
Cocoon book:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
=



-Original Message-
From: Paul Chisholm [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


Hi Matthew,

I'm new to Cocoon but have many years software engineering experience. I
assume your book is of an introductory nature and, if so, I would be keen to
review some chapters.

By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
accurate?

Paul

- Original Message -
From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:35 PM
Subject: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


> Hi,
>
> together with our publisher (www.newriders.com), we are looking for people
> interested in reviewing chapters from our book. Hopefully you will have
> something positive to say and then your quote may be used in the book or
to
> promote it.
>
> If you would be interested then please send me an email. Please note that
we
> will only be able to suggest (!!) reviewers - our publisher will choose.
And
> probably only a few of those in the end.
>
> Thanks
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> =
> Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
> -
> Cocoon book:
>   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> =
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Re: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Paul Chisholm]

Hi Matthew,

I'm new to Cocoon but have many years software engineering experience. I
assume your book is of an introductory nature and, if so, I would be keen to
review some chapters.

By the way, Amazon states the book will be published on July 19. Is that
accurate?

Paul

- Original Message -
From: "Matthew Langham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:35 PM
Subject: Cocoon book reviewers wanted


> Hi,
>
> together with our publisher (www.newriders.com), we are looking for people
> interested in reviewing chapters from our book. Hopefully you will have
> something positive to say and then your quote may be used in the book or
to
> promote it.
>
> If you would be interested then please send me an email. Please note that
we
> will only be able to suggest (!!) reviewers - our publisher will choose.
And
> probably only a few of those in the end.
>
> Thanks
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> =
> Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
> -
> Cocoon book:
>   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> =
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faqs.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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RE: Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Michael Homeijer]

Hi Matthew,

What kind of readers do you expect? Skills, level etc?

Michael

> -Original Message-
> From: Matthew Langham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: woensdag 22 mei 2002 8:36
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Cocoon book reviewers wanted
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> together with our publisher (www.newriders.com), we are 
> looking for people
> interested in reviewing chapters from our book. Hopefully you 
> will have
> something positive to say and then your quote may be used in 
> the book or to
> promote it.
> 
> If you would be interested then please send me an email. 
> Please note that we
> will only be able to suggest (!!) reviewers - our publisher 
> will choose. And
> probably only a few of those in the end.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Matthew
> 
> --
> Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> =
> Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
> -
> Cocoon book:
>   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> =
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

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Cocoon book reviewers wanted

[Matthew Langham]

Hi,

together with our publisher (www.newriders.com), we are looking for people
interested in reviewing chapters from our book. Hopefully you will have
something positive to say and then your quote may be used in the book or to
promote it.

If you would be interested then please send me an email. Please note that we
will only be able to suggest (!!) reviewers - our publisher will choose. And
probably only a few of those in the end.

Thanks

Matthew

--
Open Source Group   Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
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Cocoon book:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
=



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