RE: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center" (XSP?)

[Hunsberger, Peter]

> I think we are agreeing (?) on the issue of proprietary : in essence, any
code that
> you do not write yourself is 'proprietary' in some way - it "belongs" to
someone.

Uh, no, but it's not worth worrying about...

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RE: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center" (XSP?)

[Derek Hohls]

Peter
 
I think we are agreeing (?) on the issue of proprietary : in
essence, any code that you do not write yourself is 'proprietary'
in some way - it "belongs" to someone.  I agree that OS can
"whither" and you may have a system on hand that is not being
developed or maintained but at least you still have the code.
I have purchased commercial products before without code (the
compnay wanted to save money!) and have ended up rewriting some
apps because of a lack of continued support
 
As for the XSP thing - you have said yourself that someone is who
not a Java expert/guru would not be able to write 'complex' Cocoon
applications without the use of XSP - for the rest of us XSP fills a 
perfectly valid need in a way that allows us to focus on XML and
XSLT; ideally, of course, there would be a team effort for such
apps and each person could get focus on what he/she is best at
in order to develop a "perfect" app.
 
Unfortunately, in my "little world" I do not have such and must do
the best I can with what I can learn...

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 30/01/2003 05:12:45 >>>

> Thanks for the comments; I am still not sure I 
> understand or agree with the "proprietary" code part; 
> my definition (based around ownership) seemingly disagrees 
> with yours - we will then obviously disagree about the  
> implications... 
 
For purposes of evaluating information technologies I consider a
technology proprietary if it is only available from a single source (or
perhaps a closed consortium). Eg. an AS/400 is proprietary a PC is not,
MS Excel is proprietary, spreadsheets, in general, are not. 
 
When a technology happens to be an Open Source project your concerns
are probably less than if the source was an obscure vendor with minimal
revenues.  None-the-less many Open Source initiatives have withered on
the vine in the past.  
 
As I've also implied, it's not just an issue of long term support;
portability can be an issue. The other issue is the cost of acquisition:
when something is available from multiple sources it there is
competition to drive down prices (not a concern with Open Source) and
competition to include features (including good documentation :-)...
 
However, all this is just incidental to the reason for my original
response: the fact remains that you don't need XSP to write a major
Cocoon application...
 
 

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RE: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center" (XSP?)

[Hunsberger, Peter]

Title: Message



> Thanks for the comments; I 
am still not sure I 
> understand or agree with the 
"proprietary" code part; 
> my definition (based around 
ownership) seemingly disagrees 
> with yours - we will then 
obviously disagree about the  
> implications... 
 
For purposes of evaluating information 
technologies I consider a technology proprietary if it is only available from a 
single source (or perhaps a closed consortium). Eg. an AS/400 is proprietary a 
PC is not, MS Excel is proprietary, spreadsheets, in general, are not. 

 
When a technology happens to be an Open 
Source project your concerns are probably less than if the source was an obscure 
vendor with minimal revenues.  None-the-less many Open Source initiatives 
have withered on the vine in the past.  
 
As I've also implied, it's not just an issue 
of long term support; portability can be an issue. The other issue is the 
cost of acquisition: when something is available from multiple sources it there 
is competition to drive down prices (not a concern with Open Source) and 
competition to include features (including good documentation 
:-)...
 
However, all this is just incidental to the 
reason for my original response: the fact remains that you don't need XSP to 
write a major Cocoon application...
 
 

RE: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center" (XSP?)

[Derek Hohls]

Peter
 
Thanks for the comments; I am still not sure I 
understand or agree with the "proprietary" code part;
my definition (based around ownership) seemingly disagrees
with yours - we will then obviously disagree about the 
implications...
 
I am perfectly happy at present to stick with XSLT and the 
various Cocoon logicsheets at present - the added complexity 
of my learning Java in depth now (i.e coming from a programming
background I already have sufficient understanding of the basic 
constructs; enough to add in logic where required) is not worth 
some *potential* portability  for some *potential* future ultra-pure 

appplication ;-)
 
I also have enough confidence in the way that Cocoon is 
developing to know that none of these choices will constitute
a *significant* barrier to my development, or the future evolution
of the systems I am working on.
 
I do hope that some of what you are doing will eventually filter
back to the Cocoon in a way that fits in with modular and
component based philosophy of the system, and can be used
by a wider group of developers.
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 29/01/2003 06:12:18 
>>>

 >  Well, you carefully 
(or not?) snipped out my point that, in the 
> end, the XSPs are converted to 
Java 
 
That's irrelevant; you're still writing 
proprietary code...
 
>  - and at least one of 
the  Cocoon books I read 
suggests this as a perfectly vaild way 
>  to start off doing your 
own coding for custom generators. 
 
Absolutely, just understand the 
tradeoffs you're making in terms of performance and 
portability. 
 
> So... I am not sure what you 
mean by "loss of portability" - 
 
It may not be an issue for you.  
For us, we have some requirements to run our code outside of Cocoon.  
They haven't forced us away from Cocoon yet, but they could in the 
future.
 
> All that said, I would be very 
happy to "upgrade my skills" 
> (and design approach) to learn 
how to develop Cocoon-based 
> systems that are both complex 
and XSP-free. 
 
1st learn Java.  2nd learn 
XSLT.  :-)
 
>  If you (or anyone else) 
would care to share your approach 
> and methodology in the form 
of tutorials and/or examples,  
> I am sure I am not the only one 
who would benefit from it. 
 
The way we do things won't make a lot of 
sense to you until you have a lot of Java and XSLT 
skills. 
 
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RE: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center" (XSP?)

[Hunsberger, Peter]

Title: Message




 >  Well, you carefully 
(or not?) snipped out my point that, in the 
> end, the XSPs are converted to 
Java 
 
That's irrelevant; you're still writing 
proprietary code...
 
>  - and at least one of 
the  Cocoon books I read 
suggests this as a perfectly vaild way 
>  to start off doing your 
own coding for custom generators. 
 
Absolutely, just understand the 
tradeoffs you're making in terms of performance and 
portability. 
 
> So... I am not sure what you 
mean by "loss of portability" - 
 
It may not be an issue for you.  
For us, we have some requirements to run our code outside of Cocoon.  
They haven't forced us away from Cocoon yet, but they could in the 
future.
 
> All that said, I would be very 
happy to "upgrade my skills" 
> (and design approach) to learn 
how to develop Cocoon-based 
> systems that are both complex 
and XSP-free. 
 
1st learn Java.  2nd learn 
XSLT.  :-)
 
>  If you (or anyone else) 
would care to share your approach 
> and methodology in the form 
of tutorials and/or examples,  
> I am sure I am not the only one 
who would benefit from it. 
 
The way we do things won't make a lot of 
sense to you until you have a lot of Java and XSLT 
skills. 
 
 

RE: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center" (XSP?)

[Derek Hohls]

Well, you carefully (or not?) snipped out my point that, in the
end, the XSPs are converted to Java - and at least one of the 
Cocoon books I read suggests this as a perfectly vaild way
to start off doing your own coding for custom generators.
So... I am not sure what you mean by "loss of portability" -
if its porting across to other systems, then no, its not an 
issue for me as I don't have the luxury of time (or the driving
need) to figure out coding for lots of different (non-Cocoon)
systems.  YMMV.
 
All that said, I would be very happy to "upgrade my skills"
(and design approach) to learn how to develop Cocoon-based
systems that are both complex and XSP-free.
 
If you (or anyone else) would care to share your approach
and methodology in the form of tutorials and/or examples, 
I am sure I am not the only one who would benefit from it.
 
Derek>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 28/01/2003 05:56:32 
>>>
 >  Hmm?  Well 
isn't that like saying that sitemaps are "proprietary" 
 
Well yes, but there's a big difference 
between coding your business logic in a proprietary non-portable solution and 
configuring a  pipeline.  By staying away from XSP I can switch 
away from Cocoon to a servlet environment with a couple of days worth of coding 
(although I'll loose a lot of flexibility).
 
>  to Cocoon.  XSP, to 
me, provide a valid and useful function.  They  
>  allow me to develop 
generators with a *minimal* amount of Java  
> knowledge (which, sadly, is 
my situation); as far as possible I  
>  avoid using it (except for 
simple if/then statements and the odd  
> calculation) but it makes a very 
useful wrapper for ESQL which, 
> if you are working with 
databases, is a *must have* (IMO) 
 
That's all very good.  You just need to 
be aware of the trade off you are making: lower learning code in Java for 
reduced portability.  If that's not an issue for you then full speed 
ahead...
 
None of this changes the fact that it's very 
possible to code a complex Cocoon app without touching a line of 
XSP...
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RE: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center" (XSP?)

[Hunsberger, Peter]

Title: Message



 >  Hmm?  Well 
isn't that like saying that sitemaps are "proprietary" 
 
Well yes, but there's a big difference 
between coding your business logic in a proprietary non-portable solution and 
configuring a  pipeline.  By staying away from XSP I can switch 
away from Cocoon to a servlet environment with a couple of days worth of coding 
(although I'll loose a lot of flexibility).
 
>  to Cocoon.  XSP, to 
me, provide a valid and useful function.  They  
>  allow me to develop 
generators with a *minimal* amount of Java  
> knowledge (which, sadly, is 
my situation); as far as possible I  
>  avoid using it (except for 
simple if/then statements and the odd  
> calculation) but it makes a very 
useful wrapper for ESQL which, 
> if you are working with 
databases, is a *must have* (IMO) 
 
That's all very good.  You just need to 
be aware of the trade off you are making: lower learning code in Java for 
reduced portability.  If that's not an issue for you then full speed 
ahead...
 
None of this changes the fact that it's very 
possible to code a complex Cocoon app without touching a line of 
XSP...
 

RE: proposal: "The Newbies Competence Center" (XSP?)

[Derek Hohls]

Hmm?  Well isn't that like saying that sitemaps are 
"proprietary"
to Cocoon.  XSP, to me, provide a valid and useful function.  
They 
allow me to develop generators with a *minimal* amount of Java 
knowledge (which, sadly, is my situation); as far as possible I 
avoid using it (except for simple if/then statements and the odd 
calculation) but it makes a very useful wrapper for ESQL which,
 if you are working with databases, is a *must have* (IMO)
 
In the end, all XSP and ESQL are is 'logicsheets' which get converted
to Java (still not sure exactly what you mean by "pure"; is there 
some
other kind?).  So Cocoon takes care of the coding complexity, 
allowing
me to concentrate on the logic.  And this, again IMO, is a Very 
Good
Thing.
 
The role of XSL is not changed at all - its still required to do the 
final
presentation transformations.
 
Well, that's my model and its worked for me from the days of Cocoon1.
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 28/01/2003 12:55:11 
 In Cocoon 1, I could see that.  In Cocoon 2, I think 
you would be > hard-pressed to avoid XSP for longer than a week if you 
were seriously > trying to solve a problem by using 
Cocoon.Huh?  We have a very large Cocoon 2 site that pumps tons of 
complex datathrough Cocoon.  We don't have a single XSP, nor do we 
every plan to havesuch:  I personally don't like XSP since it uses a 
(mostly) proprietarylanguage and I'd much rather stick with standard XSL and 
standard 
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