Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that cocoon is not ready for professional development. Unlike tomcat, or Ant, this product has serious things blocking its use in production systems. I personally am completely and utterly stopped by the classpath bug indicated here: http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580. Just another symptom of a product that needs more work to be used in professional products. That coupled with the lack of documentation makes the package difficult at best. I will possibly be back in a year or so when this technology has gone somewhere. This is assuming it is still alive by then. I have seen a plethora of new people come on this list and then just vanish. That doesn't bode well for its reputation. I don't want to take this step and throw away two weeks of work but the fact is that I also don't have time to wait for such massive bugs to be fixed and to spend another two weeks swimming through poor debugging tools. Its a massive bummer to me but in order to be true to myself I cant see alternatives. The fact is that however flawed JSPs are, I can crack together JSP pagers 40 times faster than cocoon pages. When it comes to deadlines, major bugs like this just stop a product cold. Anyway, Ill stop rambling now. Comments are invited. -- Robert
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Hi Robert, I completely agree with your opinion and share your sorrows about the current state. I personally use Resins XTP mechanism, which works fine and fast and is well documented etc. Maybe some days we will change to cocoon, but now ... Andreas Bednarz Am Don, 2003-01-30 um 12.21 schrieb Robert Simmons: I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that cocoon is not ready for professional development. Unlike tomcat, or Ant, this product has serious things blocking its use in production systems. I personally am completely and utterly stopped by the classpath bug indicated here: http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580. Just another symptom of a product that needs more work to be used in professional products. That coupled with the lack of documentation makes the package difficult at best. I will possibly be back in a year or so when this technology has gone somewhere. This is assuming it is still alive by then. I have seen a plethora of new people come on this list and then just vanish. That doesn't bode well for its reputation. I don't want to take this step and throw away two weeks of work but the fact is that I also don't have time to wait for such massive bugs to be fixed and to spend another two weeks swimming through poor debugging tools. Its a massive bummer to me but in order to be true to myself I cant see alternatives. The fact is that however flawed JSPs are, I can crack together JSP pagers 40 times faster than cocoon pages. When it comes to deadlines, major bugs like this just stop a product cold. Anyway, Ill stop rambling now. Comments are invited. -- Robert -- Andreas Bednarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Robert Simmons wrote: I have seen a plethora of new people come on this list and then just vanish. Comments are invited. That's a quick decision for someone who has been around here for only 2 weeks: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?a=10426232413r=1w=2 I have put in 14 to 16 hours a day for 2 weeks on this thing. Lets fuckign add it up shall we. That would be 210 hours averaging at 15 hours a day. Dividing by 40 hours (the standard workweek) means that i have put in nearly 5 weeks of work time compressed into 2 weeks. You can sit down and shut up now. Since you may havent gotten the picture yet, I dont like being flamed. If I didnt care I wouldnt have bothered to post the damn mail. Then again, we should feel honoured because of the email avalanche you caused during that short period, in comparison with: http://jboss.org/forums/search.jsp?search=trueq=forums=-1date=anyuser=der isorrange=10 Avalanche? Oh well just sue me. If you would get off that high horse for 15 seconds, you might realize that that avalanche would have never had happened if the product was documented properly. Fortunately most members of this list are a bit more far sighted than you and have initiated a documentation effort based on my comments. I would say that is a contribution. Im not interested in your arrogant attitude. Oh and if you would like to know why it is I have had so few posts on JBoss forums, the answer is quite simple. The product works properly and well and is very well documented. Anyway: http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jsp?forum=31thread=243200 : Oh you are steamed about that? Yes many of us on that forum are sick of kids comming there asking people to do their homework for them. No, you didnt really read the thread it seems or you would have seen our willingness to answer questions as long as they arent my teacher said to do x, can someone write it for me? As for teaching yourself in cocoon, again I have an ace in the hole you have forgotten. The documentation in cocoon is minimal at best. This has been acknowledged by other more intelligent members of this mailing list. In 4 years of college I knew more about computers than all of my profs together. Why? Cause I taught myself. Teaching one's self is rewarding but difficult. You MUST struggle. You must figure things out the hard way. Point out the documentation on the classpath issue. Show me the rich and fully qualified API documentation. Ahem. There isnt any. Do you make a habbit of flaming while firing blanks? Pardon me if I find your decisions somehow 'unstable'. I find it a pity to see you post this kind of judgement after so many people have been actively trying to help you (and still do). Sure there is stuff that Cocoon fails to do. I just think you are the type of person who will always find something that will warrant _not_ using something you haven't created yourself. There have been several people willign to help and I appreciate their assistance. These people have also recognized the shortcommings of cocoon and have acknowledged my input as a pure user and non-cocoon hacker. Perhaps you should hjoin them. I dont make the decision lightly and if I could find any way of satisfying my requirements with cocoon in the time I have, than I would change my mind. Unfortunately, real life is a tad more demanding. In case you start wondering why I'm so up-close and personal about this: Like I care. you really seem to forget this is _not_ a product, but an open source _project_, envisioned, created and supported by a community of real people. If its not a product why bother? Anythign worth doing is worth doing right. If you arent intending to make somethign that can be widely used, why are you bothering? Just idle curriosity? if so label it as such so people can say oh, and move on to something that people intend to be real. I think, however, the cocoon developers have a bit more vision. We are not being protective about our work, and we will readily admit its problems, but if all we get is yet another gee I'm gonna leave 'coz this sucks reply from you, I'm pretty sure I won't be the only one who just stops reading your mails. Please do. You have nothing intelligent to contribute so please add me to my ignore filter. That is assuming your monitor hasnt exploded from your flame beign stuffed back into your face. Oh well - flame me, I can handle it. I'm sick of seeing nice people trying to help you, and you just spreading FUD in return. This is the third inflamatory email I composed to you during the past few days, and this time, I won't refrain from sending. Feel free. If you ever come up with something intelligent to say, please flag it as important. Others such as SAXESS have you beat by about 10,000 percent in brain power and I appreciate their input. You, are just another dork sittign in judgement of others. Shoo! Unfortunately for you, you caught me in a particularly punchy mood where I am not going
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Robert, this was NOT POLITE ! stop this attacks! thats useless and distracting! no more words on this. hussayn -- Dr. Hussayn Dabbous SAXESS Software Design GmbH Neuenhöfer Allee 125 50935 Köln Telefon: +49-221-56011-0 Fax: +49-221-56011-20 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Robert Simmons wrote: I have put in 14 to 16 hours a day for 2 weeks on this thing. Lets fuckign add it up shall we. That would be 210 hours averaging at 15 hours a day. Dividing by 40 hours (the standard workweek) means that i have put in nearly 5 weeks of work time compressed into 2 weeks. You can sit down and shut up now. Since you may havent gotten the picture yet, I dont like being flamed. If I didnt care I wouldnt have bothered to post the damn mail. Hmmm...don't remember the exact quote (and you're not worth looking it up) but it went something like: Profanity is the hallmark of small minds you really seem to forget this is _not_ a product, but an open source _project_, envisioned, created and supported by a community of real people. If its not a product why bother? Anythign worth doing is worth doing right. If you arent intending to make somethign that can be widely used, why are you bothering? Just idle curriosity? if so label it as such so people can say oh, and move on to something that people intend to be real. I think, however, the cocoon developers have a bit more vision. Again...hmmm. Do you really have any concept of open source? There is a point in the lifecycle of most open source projects where the active development and experimentation with the code surpasses the capability to have a comprehensive set of API documentation for those who only want to drop in and grab a quick solution to a real world problem. If you have deadlines you need to meet it is ***YOUR*** responsibility to make sure that the technologies you select are ready for you...it is ***NOT*** the responsibility of the open source community to make sure their projects fit into your deadline schedule. If you are such a top dog, consider contributing. One last time...hmmm. I notice you didn't even respond to the above comment...perhaps because you finally realized that you don't have anything to contribute. And finally...I have used Cocoon in production and it works just fine. I will be the first one to admit that I had issues getting it to work and that I don't think I'll use it as a full application framework any time soon, but as a means of delivering content across multiple end-devices/platforms/technologies, there is nothing out there that beats it right now. The folks on this list and others have been more than helpful to me a number of times and although I don't have any need to use Cocoon further at the moment, I still read the list to keep up with developments and also to lend my assistance where I can (like how to use Cocoon with WebSphere 3.5). Posting your profanity and blasting members of this list serves no purpose other than to satisfy your own selfish need to lash out. Flame away...I'm fairly certain you can't resist wasting the time to do so...I am certain that I won't be reading them though... - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Ooooh!! I have not followed the list in the last days and now this. What's going on? If you got a problem with each other why can't you be polite? This list is (AFAIK) NOT to curse at somebody. If you want to vituperate please do it per PM!! Sorin Marti - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Robert, 210 hours in two weeks is like a single man-week IMHO (40 hours). Man hours are counted in both quality and quantity. Professionals should be aware of that. We are also professionals, although still hacking in some room between everything, but that shows we love our work. We are also consumers and consumers are able to evaluate. Most of us have evaluated Cocoon as suitable for OUR needs and we were right. Other people had less successfull results. They showed the flaws and either helped fixing or packed and mooved on. They never blamed the community for their own personal calls and still felt graditute to people that donate their personal time to build something for the community. Respect to be respected. Cheers, Manos - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Antwort: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Hi! I think 2 weeks are definitively not enough time to costumize Cocoon to fit your needs. There is no reason to use Cocoon with all its features (XSP) as it is. I found out that many different ways are possible to find your goal. JSP is not an alternative to cocoon, its just another different technology. To crack some JSPs together is not recomended for profesional development. If you believe in XML and the tecnology to deal with XML in webapplications, then you must find solutions for that. Some times an open source project is able to cover some requirements, but its necessary to develope your own solution inside a framework. The intention of a framework is to help you handling some basic circular functionatity, but a framework never will prevent you from implementing your own business logic - in the best case in a generic framework-like way. cheers Manfred [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 30.01.2003 12:21:55 Bitte antworten an [EMAIL PROTECTED]@inet An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: Thema: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready. I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that cocoon is not ready for professional development. Unlike tomcat, or Ant, this product has serious things blocking its use in production systems. I personally am completely and utterly stopped by the classpath bug indicated here: http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16580. Just another symptom of a product that needs more work to be used in professional products. That coupled with the lack of documentation makes the package difficult at best. I will possibly be back in a year or so when this technology has gone somewhere. This is assuming it is still alive by then. I have seen a plethora of new people come on this list and then just vanish. That doesn't bode well for its reputation. I don't want to take this step and throw away two weeks of work but the fact is that I also don't have time to wait for such massive bugs to be fixed and to spend another two weeks swimming through poor debugging tools. Its a massive bummer to me but in order to be true to myself I cant see alternatives. The fact is that however flawed JSPs are, I can crack together JSP pagers 40 times faster than cocoon pages. When it comes to deadlines, major bugs like this just stop a product cold. Anyway, Ill stop rambling now. Comments are invited. -- Robert - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Sorry. To say I've had a bad week would be a massive understatement. Today was just not the right day to flame me. If he had done it yesterday I would have ignored him. But my mail was just as uncalled for as his. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Sorin Marti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready. Ooooh!! I have not followed the list in the last days and now this. What's going on? If you got a problem with each other why can't you be polite? This list is (AFAIK) NOT to curse at somebody. If you want to vituperate please do it per PM!! Sorin Marti - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Steven, Because people are going to flame you, I thought maybe I'd send an email agreeing with you ;-) When I first started using cocoon, it seemed weird and akward. It took about 2-3 months of really digging in and trying to use it. This was before there were good books out, of which there are 2 really good ones that really cut the learning time down. We have now used it successfully on 4 major projects, all at fortune 100 companies. I think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and so do our customers. If I had made any kind of snap judgements on it, I might have disappeared after two weeks as well. I also agree that this community, while I have only been actively watching it for a couple days now, has really tried to help Robert out and provided good answers. Plus, the bug listed is with XSP, which I have yet to use on any of my projects because it is quirky at best. There are so many other good things in cocoon, I'd hate to throw them all out because of this one thing. Irv Steven Noels wrote: Robert Simmons wrote: I have seen a plethora of new people come on this list and then just vanish. Comments are invited. That's a quick decision for someone who has been around here for only 2 weeks: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?a=10426232413r=1w=2 Then again, we should feel honoured because of the email avalanche you caused during that short period, in comparison with: http://jboss.org/forums/search.jsp?search=trueq=forums=-1date=anyuser=derisorrange=10 Anyway: http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jsp?forum=31thread=243200 : In 4 years of college I knew more about computers than all of my profs together. Why? Cause I taught myself. Teaching one's self is rewarding but difficult. You MUST struggle. You must figure things out the hard way. Pardon me if I find your decisions somehow 'unstable'. I find it a pity to see you post this kind of judgement after so many people have been actively trying to help you (and still do). Sure there is stuff that Cocoon fails to do. I just think you are the type of person who will always find something that will warrant _not_ using something you haven't created yourself. In case you start wondering why I'm so up-close and personal about this: you really seem to forget this is _not_ a product, but an open source _project_, envisioned, created and supported by a community of real people. We are not being protective about our work, and we will readily admit its problems, but if all we get is yet another gee I'm gonna leave 'coz this sucks reply from you, I'm pretty sure I won't be the only one who just stops reading your mails. Oh well - flame me, I can handle it. I'm sick of seeing nice people trying to help you, and you just spreading FUD in return. This is the third inflamatory email I composed to you during the past few days, and this time, I won't refrain from sending. If you are such a top dog, consider contributing. Take care, /Steven - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
This type of thing really makes my day. You know actually it does the
project more good than harm. It pays to step back from our day to day Cocoon
euphoria now and again and look at things through other peoples eyes. And
its obvious that some people have difficulties getting Cocoon and perhaps
even getting open source software in the first place. Now this is not a
criticism. It is a fact.
We (the project) should ask ourselves - what can we do to make peoples life
easier in Cocoon. There is a lot going on (books, wiki, mailing-list help,
documentation) - but there is always room for improvement.
You (the people starting out with Cocoon) should ask yourselves - is an open
source project like Cocoon right for me. Am I prepared for the rough waters
that may lie ahead. If not then perhaps you would be better off using a
commercial box product with payed for support. But I am sure that if you
need something like Cocoon - then you will be back.
Of course you may not need something like Cocoon - and that's good also.
Probably the most important lesson we leared when we started out with Cocoon
back in .. (his eyes misted over as he remembered the good old days) .. was
that if you find a bug or something that doesn't work right - then you had
better be prepared to fix it yourself (especially if you are betting the
bank on the open source software). If not - then maybe open source isn't for
you.
Matthew
--
Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
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Matthew Langham, SN AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.s-und-n.de
-
Cocoon book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
Weblogs:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/
http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014
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AW: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Hello, group. I am using cocoon in a professional environment. I am happy with it! So is my boss, ...and his boss! Use yourself whatever you want! Come back in one year - yes I strongly believe cocoon will be still there, because it is the concept behind it that makes so powerful! But please everyone, stop producing bad vibes! Thanks. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Carsten Ziegeler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. Januar 2003 14:22 An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready. PLEASE: LET'S NOT TURN THIS INTO A FLAME WAR AGAINST ANYONE! We can discuss everything as long as it does not get personal. If someone does not want to use Cocoon, fine - if someone wants to use Cocoon, it's even better. And if someone is soo happy with Cocoon and can even give back to the immens effort the cocoon community has put into this project: excellent. Just two more sentences to all of you out there wondering if Cocoon is usable or not: a) many companies are using cocoon in *production* environments and this includes really, really big ones - so it is usable and used. b) it's your decision if you want to use cocoon or not and noone else's. And finally: Again, let's try to be objective and let's not get personal!!! Have a nice day Carsten Carsten Ziegeler Open Source Group, SN AG - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Hi, I found a blog, which fits perfecly ;-) http://blogs.werken.com/people/bob/archives/000146.html Stephan Michels - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
*lol* that reminds me of something ... :-D Stephan Michels wrote: Hi, I found a blog, which fits perfecly ;-) http://blogs.werken.com/people/bob/archives/000146.html Stephan Michels - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Time to go back to JSP. Cocoon just isnt ready.
Hussayn Dabbous wrote: snip/ Maybe we are far away from maturity, but we won't get closer, if everyone interested in professional usage just skips it, because it's not professionally usable right now. Instead of coming back next year you may help getting there by taking a little bit of care... You might benefit at the end (no promise, but a chance) Hear, Hear. If each person would contribute just one sentence per day to documentation, then we would all immediately benefit. It is so obvious that it is scary. Is it human nature that makes us bicker, or blow our ego trumpet, and forget to contribute? I wonder, if there is a company out in the world, who is already dealing with cooling down cocoon and packing it as professional distribution ? Probably so. It is an amazing world where people take a freely available product, add spit-and-polish and use it successfully for themselves. Yet never contribute back to the project. Wouldn't it be nice to get something like a coconuts distrib with documentation all put together for instant usage (today for experiment, tomorrow for production) ? ... It would be even better for the documentation effort to be focussed back on the core Cocoon product. We have too much separation of effort... websites about Cocoon, various different Wiki with haphazard and repetitive content, stacks of blabber on two different mailing lists (yet none on the cocoon-docs list). All this time there are no changes being contributed into the actual CVS documentation. So no wonder that the core documentation is lacking. --David - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
