Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
Thomas Dowling wrote: Contrariwise, Wikipedia includes book and DVD covers and movie posters, with a pretty verbose explanation of why they think they're allowed to do so (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:StarWarsMoviePoster1977.jpg). I guess they just define their use as allowed and wait for someone to challenge them on it? This is what the *English language* Wikipedia does. Normally, all pictures in Wikipedia are uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, from where they can be shared by all languages of the free encyclopedia. But Wikimedia Commons doesn't accept pictures under fair use, they must be under a free license (or in the public domain). That's why these posters and cover images are only uploaded to the English Wikipedia, and do not appear on other major languages of Wikipedia. Some users want the stricter rule introduced on the English Wikipedia as well, since these images are not free and can only be used legally in countries with a fair use exception in their copyright law. It is a major issue of discussion. For the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mark_Twain.jpg you will see the text This is a file from the Wikimedia Commons. The description on its description page there is shown below, which doesn't appear for that Star Wars movie poster. -- Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
Tim Spalding wrote: I really hope this—or more probably what comes of this—ends the selling of covers to libraries. Probably not, with all the restrictions you attached. Still, this is a most interesting experiment. Commercial sellers supposedly have a legal backing from contracts with publishers, which you don't? How long will that last? If it does last, it is indeed a big win. In the blog entry, you wrote: Publishers and authors want libraries and bookstores to show their covers. -- I'm not so sure. I think publishers want copyright to make it hard to use out-of-print books, so people buy new books instead. Back in 1932, Aldous Huxley wrote: We don't want people to be attracted by old things. We want them to like the new ones. -- Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
Both the law and the real world situation is unclear. Clearly, publishers own the intellectual property of a cover graphic. Could using thumbnail images of lots of covers in aggregate be considered fair use? Maybe, the law is not clear (there is some case law to suggest it could be, but it's hardly settled). Would publishers mind if you are using their intellectual property like this? It's not clear. On the one hand, these days everyone thinks they should be getting paid if you are using their IP for anything. On the other hand, _some_ publishers are giving thumbnails for free to Internet Archive. Maybe publishers realize giving you this 'property' to, after all, let you advertise their wares for them, is a good thing. Of course Bowker/Syndetics (and I think Ingram has a cover service too?) don't like free covers because they make money from it. I am very very curious as to what terms Bowker has with the publishers; does Bowker have an _exclusive_ license with the publishers to do certain things? How much, if any, do the publishers get paid for Bowker's use of their cover images? Very curious what the business situation is, because that helps us guess how various actors will behave. If you use Bowker/Syndetics images in a way not covered by the license, that's a license issue. Amazon licenses from Bowker, and in turn licenses the end-user, so there are various parties there that could be violating licenses. Google also licenses either from Bowker or Ingram or someone else, not sure who, but I'm pretty sure they've gotten cover images by license. The LibraryThing archive was not obtained by license. It was obtained by individual users scanning and uploading. So the only license involved is one between LibraryThing and the end-users of the images, there is no license violation with any provider of the image possible. Just possibly a copyright violation. Jonathan Lars Aronsson wrote: Tim Spalding wrote: I really hope this—or more probably what comes of this—ends the selling of covers to libraries. Probably not, with all the restrictions you attached. Still, this is a most interesting experiment. Commercial sellers supposedly have a legal backing from contracts with publishers, which you don't? How long will that last? If it does last, it is indeed a big win. In the blog entry, you wrote: Publishers and authors want libraries and bookstores to show their covers. -- I'm not so sure. I think publishers want copyright to make it hard to use out-of-print books, so people buy new books instead. Back in 1932, Aldous Huxley wrote: We don't want people to be attracted by old things. We want them to like the new ones. -- Jonathan Rochkind Digital Services Software Engineer The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
First, IANAL, obviously. Clearly, publishers own the intellectual property of a cover graphic. Could using thumbnail images of lots of covers in aggregate be considered fair use? Maybe, the law is not clear (there is some case law to suggest it could be, but it's hardly settled). Publishers make their covers available to them and to others because they desperately want their covers out there. You can get covers from publishers with amazing ease. I do not suspect Amazon or Syndetics have licensed the covers in any way. LibraryThing asserts no copyright over the images. In most cases, copyright rests with the publisher. (In the case of the cover I designed for my wife's book, it rests with me; I'll tell you nobody at Amazon has asked for my permission—snort!) As such, there are fair and unfair uses of the images. Using images in connection with selling product is generally considered fair use. That's why you can take a picture of your cool decorate skateboard and post it on ebay, but you can't make a huge photo of the skateboard and make posters of it. Commentary is another fair use harbor. I've never seen OPAC use directly mentioned, but I can't imagine it wouldn't fall under it as well. If you can show a cover to sell a book, a library can surely show a cover to patrons interested in checking it out. Would publishers mind if you are using their intellectual property like this? It's not clear. Do publishers sell covers or books? On the one hand, these days everyone thinks they should be getting paid if you are using their IP for anything. On the other hand, _some_ publishers are giving thumbnails for free to Internet Archive. Maybe publishers realize giving you this 'property' to, after all, let you advertise their wares for them, is a good thing. Of course Bowker/Syndetics (and I think Ingram has a cover service too?) don't like free covers because they make money from it. I am very very curious as to what terms Bowker has with the publishers; does Bowker have an _exclusive_ license with the publishers to do certain things? No. They don't. How much, if any, do the publishers get paid for Bowker's use of their cover images? Very curious what the business situation is, because that helps us guess how various actors will behave. I suspect the answer is nothing. There may be payments on either side to make it happen easily. Tim
Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
I am actually pretty certain that Amazon _has_ licensed their covers, and particularly from Syndetics. Where Syndetics gets their covers remains a mystery to me, one I am very curious about. Jonathan Tim Spalding wrote: First, IANAL, obviously. Clearly, publishers own the intellectual property of a cover graphic. Could using thumbnail images of lots of covers in aggregate be considered fair use? Maybe, the law is not clear (there is some case law to suggest it could be, but it's hardly settled). Publishers make their covers available to them and to others because they desperately want their covers out there. You can get covers from publishers with amazing ease. I do not suspect Amazon or Syndetics have licensed the covers in any way. LibraryThing asserts no copyright over the images. In most cases, copyright rests with the publisher. (In the case of the cover I designed for my wife's book, it rests with me; I'll tell you nobody at Amazon has asked for my permission—snort!) As such, there are fair and unfair uses of the images. Using images in connection with selling product is generally considered fair use. That's why you can take a picture of your cool decorate skateboard and post it on ebay, but you can't make a huge photo of the skateboard and make posters of it. Commentary is another fair use harbor. I've never seen OPAC use directly mentioned, but I can't imagine it wouldn't fall under it as well. If you can show a cover to sell a book, a library can surely show a cover to patrons interested in checking it out. Would publishers mind if you are using their intellectual property like this? It's not clear. Do publishers sell covers or books? On the one hand, these days everyone thinks they should be getting paid if you are using their IP for anything. On the other hand, _some_ publishers are giving thumbnails for free to Internet Archive. Maybe publishers realize giving you this 'property' to, after all, let you advertise their wares for them, is a good thing. Of course Bowker/Syndetics (and I think Ingram has a cover service too?) don't like free covers because they make money from it. I am very very curious as to what terms Bowker has with the publishers; does Bowker have an _exclusive_ license with the publishers to do certain things? No. They don't. How much, if any, do the publishers get paid for Bowker's use of their cover images? Very curious what the business situation is, because that helps us guess how various actors will behave. I suspect the answer is nothing. There may be payments on either side to make it happen easily. Tim -- Jonathan Rochkind Digital Services Software Engineer The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
On 08/07/2008 04:04 PM, Jonathan Rochkind wrote: I am actually pretty certain that Amazon _has_ licensed their covers, and particularly from Syndetics. Contrariwise, Wikipedia includes book and DVD covers and movie posters, with a pretty verbose explanation of why they think they're allowed to do so (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:StarWarsMoviePoster1977.jpg). I guess they just define their use as allowed and wait for someone to challenge them on it? -- Thomas Dowling [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
Publishers make their covers available to them and to others because they desperately want their covers out there. You can get covers from publishers with amazing ease. I do not suspect Amazon or Syndetics have licensed the covers in any way. Having worked for a number of years for a children's library book supplier in the mid 1990s in the UK, I can concur with Tim -- all of the publishers we dealt with (which included all of the major players) were more than happy to supply us with book cover scans to use on our web site. The only issue for us was the wide variety in quality (from tiny GIFs to massive TIFFs), so we ended up doing all of the cover scanning ourselves inhouse (again, the publishers we're happy for us do this). On the subject of copyright, wasn't there a recent case brought against Google's Image Search where the judge ruled that thumbnails do not violate the copyright of the original image? regards Dave Pattern University of Huddersfield This transmission is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you receive it in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and remove it from your system. If the content of this e-mail does not relate to the business of the University of Huddersfield, then we do not endorse it and will accept no liability.
Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
I think the lawsuit you are talking about is the image linking suit, Perfect 10 v. Google. Information on this lawsuit can be found at: http://www.eff.org/cases/perfect-10-v-google I haven't read the decision, but the EFF says While it leaves some questions open, the bottom line is that the Court upheld important policies of fair use and freedom online and resisted Perfect 10's plea to put copyright owners completely in charge of how and when search engines and other online intermediaries can provide their users with links to images. Edward On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 4:48 PM, David Pattern [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Publishers make their covers available to them and to others because they desperately want their covers out there. You can get covers from publishers with amazing ease. I do not suspect Amazon or Syndetics have licensed the covers in any way. Having worked for a number of years for a children's library book supplier in the mid 1990s in the UK, I can concur with Tim -- all of the publishers we dealt with (which included all of the major players) were more than happy to supply us with book cover scans to use on our web site. The only issue for us was the wide variety in quality (from tiny GIFs to massive TIFFs), so we ended up doing all of the cover scanning ourselves inhouse (again, the publishers we're happy for us do this). On the subject of copyright, wasn't there a recent case brought against Google's Image Search where the judge ruled that thumbnails do not violate the copyright of the original image? regards Dave Pattern University of Huddersfield This transmission is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you receive it in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and remove it from your system. If the content of this e-mail does not relate to the business of the University of Huddersfield, then we do not endorse it and will accept no liability.
Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
Yeah, the law is pretty unclear. I don't think LT or Wikipedia are taking an unreasonable risk. Odds are, the publishers aren't going to complain. If they do, and you are willing to go to court, it's a toss up as to whether you'd win or not. Jonathan Thomas Dowling wrote: On 08/07/2008 04:04 PM, Jonathan Rochkind wrote: I am actually pretty certain that Amazon _has_ licensed their covers, and particularly from Syndetics. Contrariwise, Wikipedia includes book and DVD covers and movie posters, with a pretty verbose explanation of why they think they're allowed to do so (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:StarWarsMoviePoster1977.jpg). I guess they just define their use as allowed and wait for someone to challenge them on it? -- Jonathan Rochkind Digital Services Software Engineer The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] [Web4lib] A million free covers, from LibraryThing
David Pattern wrote: On the subject of copyright, wasn't there a recent case brought against Google's Image Search where the judge ruled that thumbnails do not violate the copyright of the original image? Yes, but the facts in that case weren't quite the same as the facts in the hypothetical case we are talking about. It woudln't neccesarily be decided the same, although the defense lawyers in our hypothetical case would certainly cite that case. At any event, if the publishers don't mind, it doesn't matter. And as seeing a post from Dave reminds me, even what I know about the murky grey areas of this issue is only US law, I have absolutely no idea how it would turn out in other countries. But if the publishers don't mind, it won't matter. Jonathan regards Dave Pattern University of Huddersfield This transmission is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you receive it in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and remove it from your system. If the content of this e-mail does not relate to the business of the University of Huddersfield, then we do not endorse it and will accept no liability. -- Jonathan Rochkind Digital Services Software Engineer The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu
