Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:46:21 +0100 (Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project) David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator makes sense... For me, proposed project whose final target (destination) is TLP itself would not fit to the incubator charter. Rather, creation of the task force team (mailing list) might be preferable... Also, it is similar to the creation of Incubator Project itself last year, I guess. Am i right? wrong? Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:52 am, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: For me, proposed project whose final target (destination) is TLP itself would not fit to the incubator charter. AFAIK, the incubator is for all new code coming to Apache whether it is destined for an existing project or it becomes a new Apache project, so called TLP. This is from the original board resolution RESOLVED, that the Apache Incubator PMC is responsible for regularly evaluating products under its purview and making the determination in each case of whether the product should be abandoned, continue to receive guidance and support, or proposed to the board for promotion to full project status as part of an existing or new Foundation PMC; and be it further Rather, creation of the task force team (mailing list) might be preferable... Also, it is similar to the creation of Incubator Project itself last year, I guess. The creation of a new Project/PMC would require a board resolution. That may be one outcome of incubation as indicated in the above quote. Conor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:46:21 +0100 (Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project) David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator makes sense... For me, proposed project whose final target (destination) is TLP itself would not fit to the incubator charter. Rather, creation of the task force team (mailing list) might be preferable... Also, it is similar to the creation of Incubator Project itself last year, I guess. Am i right? wrong? I think you're wrong - sorry :( Basically the incubutaor is a staging area for new projects. It provides a place for them to build a stable basis and gain support/experience before they move on. Whatever level they're destined for within the ASF is irrelevant to the process of getting the lists, cvs and general structure setup - which is what the incubator exists for. If the project succeeds in getting bootstrapped then it'll be moved on and out of the incubator. Another important consideration is that getting started in the incubator isn't as hard as getting setup as a full project. david - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:53:30 +1000 Conor MacNeill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:52 am, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: For me, proposed project whose final target (destination) is TLP itself would not fit to the incubator charter. AFAIK, the incubator is for all new code coming to Apache whether it is destined for an existing project or it becomes a new Apache project, so called TLP. 1. Yes. Sure, *new code* coming to Apache is better to be incubated at Incubator project, I know. Then, how it goes with *new concept concerning with infrastructural issue*? At http://incubator.apache.org/process.html , [others..?] line can be added, right? 2. Okay, Incubator project can take up the would-be-TLP. I see. Then, where can I/we seek the sponsoring (mentoring) member in apache.org? ... is it possible to seek the mentoring ASF members from various TLPs in Apache? The creation of a new Project/PMC would require a board resolution. That may be one outcome of incubation as indicated in the above quote. O.K. *indicated* above: ... I assume I can take it with broad interpretation These lines you mentioned above gave me a broad insights into the issues for the new projects. Conor Thank you for everything, Conor and David. I'll translate the Incubator Project's website into japanese more, and I am sure I can gain more broader insights into the incubation process in consequence of this translation process: http://incubator.terra-intl.com/ Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [i18n] Internationalization project
How's about Apache Commons? FWIW, we have some code in James that might be useful for in this area. Yes, the James code is written in Java, but the real offering is the XML resource format, and the operations. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
David - sorry - my intention wasn't to invite people to Jakarta General from here, but to see where it should be moved, somewhere above JG, as indicated by the discussions there. If this is to possibly become a top-level Apache project, where should it be discussed? (Up to now, I've primarily been following Jakarta discussions, since that's the only code I've contributed to so far). Andrew - sorry - I hadn't realized that the Community list wasn't open to everyone. If we are to keep the discussion on a list that is open to everyone, where would that be? TIA. Robert Simpson David Reid wrote: Robert, Thanks for cross-porting, but please don't try to invite people to jakarta-general@ from this list! This list has a wider audience and as any internationalization project will fail in it's objectives unless it is used across the entire of the ASF the community@ list would appear to make more sense for these discussions. The fact that the discussion rose to this list from the jakarta-general@ list is a good sign of it's intended direction, so please don't try to reverse that now.The aim of community@ was to foster a sense of greater community within the ASF, not to provide a recuiting ground for jakarta-general@ or any other such list :) I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator makes sense... david - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
OK, well I had a discussion last night with some folks from the incubator PMC and frankly it upset me. It was one of those evenings when you realise how crap organisations can be and makes you wonder why you bother with them :( I really wasn't impressed. In fact to give you an idea, the overriding suggestion that came out was (paraphrased) go to sourceforge and when you have a community and code then we'll think about adding you to the incubator. So, basically that's the only option that the esteemed ASF incubuator project appears to offer. I'd suggest therefore that you take the discussion back to JG and work on it there as at least you seem to have some peope who are interested in it there :( I wish I could bring myself to be more enthusiastic, but I really don't see the point of having the incubator at this moment in time. david - Original Message - From: Robert Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Community@Apache.org Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project David - sorry - my intention wasn't to invite people to Jakarta General from here, but to see where it should be moved, somewhere above JG, as indicated by the discussions there. If this is to possibly become a top-level Apache project, where should it be discussed? (Up to now, I've primarily been following Jakarta discussions, since that's the only code I've contributed to so far). Andrew - sorry - I hadn't realized that the Community list wasn't open to everyone. If we are to keep the discussion on a list that is open to everyone, where would that be? TIA. Robert Simpson David Reid wrote: Robert, Thanks for cross-porting, but please don't try to invite people to jakarta-general@ from this list! This list has a wider audience and as any internationalization project will fail in it's objectives unless it is used across the entire of the ASF the community@ list would appear to make more sense for these discussions. The fact that the discussion rose to this list from the jakarta-general@ list is a good sign of it's intended direction, so please don't try to reverse that now.The aim of community@ was to foster a sense of greater community within the ASF, not to provide a recuiting ground for jakarta-general@ or any other such list :) I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator makes sense... david - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Hi * Roy T. Fielding ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote : OK, well I had a discussion last night with some folks from the incubator PMC and frankly it upset me. It was one of those evenings when you realise how crap organisations can be and makes you wonder why you bother with them :( I really wasn't impressed. i18n isn't a code project. It isn't even an documentation project. In fact, there doesn't even seem to be any reason for it to be a project. I don't think this is quite right; translation generally doesn't require developer level knowledge of the thing being translated, so a pool of translators could work on all our software, rather than being tied to a specific sub-project, like httpd-doc's translators. (see http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/ for where I'm going with this.) Why would incubator have anything to do with it? I don't think this is a project that needs to be incubated, it should be a function of the foundation, almost. Whilst, yes, the commits will have to be performed by individual projects, a place for translation teams to coordinate, develop best practises and also recruit new translators would be, I suspect, very welcome. Cheers -Thom - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
i18n isn't a code project. It isn't even an documentation project. In fact, there doesn't even seem to be any reason for it to be a project. Why would incubator have anything to do with it? You'll forgive me is I find that a somewhat shallower attitude than I may have expected :( I wasn't present for your conversation, but I am not at all surprised by the result. Personally, I think that creating a project that consists of people that want to work on other projects is a bit weird. Why don't you just ask for a mailing list? The actual commits will have to be made by the specific projects, not by an uber-i18n-committee, so project formation doesn't make any sense. An ASF project exists as an organizational mechanism for releasing software that might otherwise get people sued as individuals. It does not exist for the sake of replacing USENET news or community mailing lists. Fair enough. So basically if you have an innovative idea/concept don't bother calling the ASF? david - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
David N. Welton escribió: Roy T. Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, I think that creating a project that consists of people that want to work on other projects is a bit weird. Why don't you just ask for a mailing list? The actual commits will have to be made by the specific projects, not by an uber-i18n-committee, so project formation doesn't make any sense. I was thinking on the l10n making doc commits and properties commits, ... themselves, and having means to track *both* the source document (in the original project cvs) and the translated documents (???). i18n is different from l10n - translation. i18n is really a code issue and can only be handled at that level. Other projects with more successful l10n efforts have, on the other hand, created efforts centralized not on the code, but on bringing together a group of volunteers who are not coders, and who may not even be experts on one particular project outside its documentation, but who are able to provide translations. This has the advantage of having one stream of documentation queued up for translation, and encourages the growth of a comunity based on translation work, something that is less likely for individual projects. Debian developer Steve Langasek provides this bit of info on how the FSF works, for comparison: The GNU TP receives .po files from upstream maintainers, announces them to the translation mailing lists, and then each .po file is assigned out to an individual translator according to interest. This kind of things was what promtpted myself to suggest top level and bringing the discussion here. When the original proposal spoke about i18n (and translation in the narrow scope of i18n: button names, etc.) for the whole jakarta, I thought that this (the translation part) was mostly independent of programming language and/or project. I signaled clearly that I was speaking about having a translation infrastructure, and that this infrastructure was not simple to develop. For instance, I was thinking in how to organise technically a repository so that the translators could be made aware of version and release control, i.e. translating patches instead of losing synchrony or re-translating whole property files or docs where only a few lines were added or changed, with the risk of inconsistent translations of old items across releases. I have no solution for this, except noop, i.e. each document maintainer tracks herself the source and translation (bad for replacement of translator and incremental quality of translations). I think the original proposal was purely about i18n technology for java. But the discussion drifted into translation of docs, web sites, etc. It is unfortunate that I (and other people) mixed two differen issues here and mudded the discussion a bit. Let's separate the issues back. I changed this thread to be about translation efforts. Please don't bring code back to this thread. That said, being a native english speaker, I've only really observed this stuff from afar. Ciao, Re: the other comment by Roy T. Fielding: An ASF project exists as an organizational mechanism for releasing software that might otherwise get people sued as individuals. It does not exist for the sake of replacing USENET news or community mailing lists. This makes worthwhile having either some means to monitor l10n as a whole, cause project people cannot assess the fidelity or quality of translations unless they are plurilingual. Again, it does not look completely off track. I have more and more the idea that code is about language and expression, and that there is not that much difference between a document and a program. But, and this is why I asked for the discussion in community, I don't have clear ideas on how to make sense of this. Regards -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
