Re: OpenMoko - We Need HYPE, and we need it yesterday!
Steven ** wrote: As far as mainstream press, check out June 2007 issue of Popular Science magazine. The Neo is one of 29 Hot Products. FYI, the phase 1 Neo1973 will also be featured briefly in upcoming german c't magazine 13/2007, page 28. -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko - We Need HYPE, and we need it yesterday!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Florent THIERY said the following on 05/06/07 00:33: I mean, a neo looks like a great device, but so far it's mainly a regular smartphone; if the project continues to improve, one day the neo will do what linux is best at: full network integration (fuse filesystems are a good example i think), disruptive ideas (we'll soon have hardware-accelerated graphics, a GPS, as well as accelerators... plenty of room for work and innovation in the UI part ! ), and fun, human applications. Agreed. A lot of people don't know about nor care about the Freedom aspect. We need to find ways to show it off. For example, when we have wifi, it'd be cool if the openmoko switched to using voip for calls, hence costing the customer nothing. Or if it could seamlessly send text messages for free over the internet (again wifi needed). Or if you could make it dead easy to use any MP3 [1] as a ring tone, instead of having to pay €2 for each one. Consumers will like this, but they know that phone companies would sell a phone like this. We could use this to show off that the OpenMoko is *your* phone, not the phone companies phone. [1] yes yes I know about mp3s. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZTOyfM8hGU8tATMRAlNXAKCvDd6vYu795ejhl3TCTTA4kOIORgCg+D6X qa70tL7pu2G8m5H9iUdS1Sg= =4PwA -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [SVHMPC] Phone Call Security
In any case, between openmoko devices encrypted calls would imply having a personal server, as P2P communication is almost always prevented inside a GPRS network (at least in France, it is). The mokoslug distro for NSLU2 becomes more and more promising :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko - We Need HYPE, and we need it yesterday!
mathew davis wrote: I think we need to wait. When the neo1973 has matured a bit and has worked out the mojor kinks it will generate attention on it's own, which we can then strengthen. But right now I don't think it would really have an impact. We don't know the final release date, the software on it which is the biggest part of the phone is not worked out yet. And when the phone is released that's when the magic happens. The community will come alive. Programs will be developed for the phone that we haven't even thought of yet. And then interest will be generated. Plus we will be excited about our phone, we will be excited about moding them and doing what we want with the phone, in essance freeing our phone. Then I believe it will explode. I think it's a good idea to spread the word about the neo1973 but I don't think getting or starting hype now is important or needed. I just don't see the usefulness of it now. But that's just my opinion. I agree completely. First it's difficult to hype something that doesn't exist, and nobody knows if and when it will exist. All the people that I 'marketed' it to have long since given up asking me when it is going to arrive. Second, the last thing you want is some non-technical person (who we hyped it to) buying a unit that crashes, won't run X, can only call, whatever. It needs to be running 100% before you push it on non-developers. Dunc ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
el jefe delito wrote: Could someone please explain to me the difference between Phase 1 and Phase 2 phones, from an availability standpoint? Will it be the Phase1 being released in September, and Phase2 sometime in 2008? Or is Phase1 a design prototype and Phase2 closer to the for-sale unit available about September? I just hope this thing ain't gonna repeat the osborne effect : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Any updates?? now that we have passed the original date for the second test production run.
Aanjhan R wrote: Hi, On 5/31/07, Alan Ide [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am still waiting on baited breathe for news. I know that the original test run that was slated for a couple weeks ago got pushed back, but what about the second run that was supposed to happen. How did the run go (if there has been a run yet). More problems? What about the phase 1+ specs?? Basically, any news?? Some updates here. http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/02#20070602-busy-busy-busy From that blog post: ll personally do QA on 10% of those phones throughout the second week of June. So, I guess if QA hasn't even begun yet we shouldn't anticipate these anytime soon. I fear that the soonest we'll see the developer's release is the former September mass market release date. It would make sense - the September date, so far, is the only date that we haven't missed yet. Dunc ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [SVHMPC] concept phone with only a touchscreen for UI
You are right, and that was before some years. They used this concept in the whole P-Series except the newest one (P990i) afaik. 2007/6/5, kenneth marken [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Bradley Hook wrote: A possible solution for this has been discussed under an accessibility thread. The Maestro is a simple (yet effective) clip-on cover for PocketPCs. There are a few different versions of it, which work with various different brands and models of PocketPCs. Check out a picture at: http://www.engadget.com/2004/07/01/the-maestro-visuaides-pocket-pc-for-the-blind/ The device is simply real buttons that, when pressed, place pressure on a specific portion of the underlaying touchscreen. Real tactile feedback without any hardware modifications to the underlaying device. A software UI written to coincide with the specific button pattern is the only thing needed. You also get the advantage of very specific pressure points, allowing you to cram more hot areas into the UI than when using direct finger input. i could have sworn that sonyericsson did something similar for a numpad with their P800... Now, what would be novel and cool for the Neo is if we could design a clip-on device that was also mostly (or completely) transparent, so the screen could be visible while still providing the tactile interface. Keeping some of the various disabilities in mind while designing the Neo OpenMoko could really make it a hit in this sector. Pretty much every phone solution out there for the blind is a real hack job, a system capable of catering directly to these folks would be welcome. (FYI, I work at a school for the blind). ~Bradley Chris Palmer wrote: Interesting ideas, but I'm not sure that any adequately handle the tactile needs of a touch typist. Without looking at the keys, I can feel the nubs on the home keys on my phone's mini qwerty to get lined up again. I also have the same concern with using a laser projected keyboard (even tho potentially high on the coolness scale). With just a big flat surface then there's no way to keep you lined up on your keys at speed. I type pretty fast on my mini qwerty. All my personal email for the last few years have been 99.9% written on this thing, including this one. -Chris On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 2:10 pm, Jon Phillips wrote: On Sat, 2007-06-02 at 13:35 -0700, Matthew S. Hamrick wrote: Well... for a while I was thinking about implanting a strong magnet under the skin in one of my fingers to detect alternating current. There are a few people out there who have done this and they say they can feel a very mild wiggle when the magnet comes near a wire carrying AC. It might be possible to detect the current going through the touchscreen as you make contact with it. But that's probably not a mainstream solution. That sounds like a stelarc solution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stelarc What about a glove or thimble that you could put on your finger? How much does vibration tech. kill the battery on phones? Some type of current detection sounds interesting... Jon On Jun 2, 2007, at 1:11 PM, Jon Phillips wrote: Yes, it seems pretty clear that screens are the way forward rather than moving parts. I've seen a few solutions to the tactile feedback issue, with the main being have the phone vibrate slightly upon key press, along with sounds. Matthew (and others), have you heard of others? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [SVHMPC] concept phone with only a touchscreen for UI
On Tuesday 05 June 2007 15:16:30 Thomas Gstädtner wrote: You are right, and that was before some years. They used this concept in the whole P-Series except the newest one (P990i) afaik. For all I can tell, my P900 uses REAL buttons pushing them makes nothing come out of the back of the flip, that one is quite solid. pgpwJScquV2CD.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [SVHMPC] concept phone with only a touchscreen for UI
A problem with the buttons layer is that now we have something very oriented towards one specific situation, so it seems less friendly for random development of stuff, such as full-screen games without actual buttons. Of course this cover would probably be removable, but if it were to happen it would have to be /very/ removable. A great feature to support, as has been discussed here, but not one to demand. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
New HTC Touch
There is a new player in the field: http://www.htctouch.com/ http://www.europe.htc.com/products/htctouch.html Perhaps it is time to start marketing battle! -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://moblibertad.blogspot.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Size comparison
I have update size comparison, adding HTC Touch: http://www.sizeasy.com/page/comp/2144 Best regards, -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://moblibertad.blogspot.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
On 05/06/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your tracking movement with 2 3D accelerometers... What would another one provide. As far as I can tell (I am not an expert...) Tracking all 6 vectors will tell you absolute movement in space. I.e, when 2 vectors point in the same direction with the same magnitude at approximately the same acceleration as gravity.. Its probably laying or positioned flat on that side. Probably is the key here. with two 3d (linear) accelerometers you cannot sense rotation around the axis between the two in an inertial frame of reference. Moreover you cannot distinguish if the Neo is laying face down or pushed downwards with 2mg force. This example is somewhat artificial, but means that you can probably find more realistic (though complicated) movements that are not distinguishable with only two accelerometers. You must then consider the errors which sum up, if you try to track. A rough mental estimate gives that you can sum up as much as 1 meter of error in ten seconds if you have a precision of 10^-3g over acceleration measure. (it does not mean that you are 1 meter away from the real position, it means that you can only be sure that you are at most 1 meter away from that). Most of the time you will need good assumptions to get any information from raw data: http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Motion_analysis can be of some help. No linear accel, no rotation, no tilt, are assumptions which can give some meaning to the data and can be done for single application, where you can assume the user will have some particular behaviour (or you require it). Still absolute tracking won't probably be anyhow realizable. --mauro ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New HTC Touch
On 6/5/07, Thomas Gstädtner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hm, looks fat and ugly, but I'd like to have that navkey on the neo. :) HTC builds good devices - if they weren't win mobile powered. As I say often, win mobile isn't usable for phones. As a former HTC customer I can only agree: hardware is great, but it doesn't make up for the sluggish, bloated, buggy, anti-ergonomic soft.However, if they were to adopt another SW platform such as, say, openmoko, I'd be delighted to come back to them... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New HTC Touch
Am Dienstag, 5. Juni 2007 18:17 schrieb Fabien: As a former HTC customer I can only agree: hardware is great Are you joking ? This is the cheapest mass-market HTC design based on OMAP850 CPU. Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo1973 Update!
Including more than one accelerometer doesn't really make sense I think because there are rotation sensors for detecting rotation. I have one in my DS Motion ( ndsmotion.com ) which can detect rotation around one axis. Include 3 of those (or probably a combined one) and you are good to go. In addition it would also make sense to include an electronic compass. Combined with the GPS, you should then always know where on earth you are and which direction you are facing. Ortwin On 6/5/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 7:52, Mauro Iazzi wrote: On 05/06/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your tracking movement with 2 3D accelerometers... What would another one provide. As far as I can tell (I am not an expert...) Tracking all 6 vectors will tell you absolute movement in space. I.e, when 2 vectors point in the same direction with the same magnitude at approximately the same acceleration as gravity.. Its probably laying or positioned flat on that side. Probably is the key here. with two 3d (linear) accelerometers you cannot sense rotation around the axis between the two in an inertial frame of reference. Moreover you cannot distinguish if the Neo is laying face down or pushed downwards with 2mg force. This example is somewhat artificial, but means that you can probably find more realistic (though complicated) movements that are not distinguishable with only two accelerometers. You must then consider the errors which sum up, if you try to track. A rough mental estimate gives that you can sum up as much as 1 meter of error in ten seconds if you have a precision of 10^-3g over acceleration measure. (it does not mean that you are 1 meter away from the real position, it means that you can only be sure that you are at most 1 meter away from that). Most of the time you will need good assumptions to get any information from raw data: http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Motion_analysis can be of some help. No linear accel, no rotation, no tilt, are assumptions which can give some meaning to the data and can be done for single application, where you can assume the user will have some particular behaviour (or you require it). Still absolute tracking won't probably be anyhow realizable. --mauro So are you saying that 3 3d accelerometers in a line with 2 on the end and 1 in the middle will allow you to distinguish between rotation around the center axis, etc? It would seem to me that there are some realistic assumptions which can be made to reduce error under normal usage. In addition, in a navigation sense it would seem that you can use gps to provide error correction and thus be at least as precise (or maybe not far from it) as the gps between times when you are out of gps signal (I.e. Tunnel) etc. Other than a navigation use, accelerometers will be useful for manipulating applications, but without a compass module, pointing or other types of external information apps might not be possible anyway. If that's true, then each program will have some assumptions built in for normal usage. Errors can be mostly ignored since what will usually matter will be the differences between vectors in very short timeframes OR the difference between the start vectors and the current vectors. If the phone is suddenly dropped or thrown that's probably detectable as an extreme motion and maybe ignorable. /shrug --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Why the Neo is going to have 2 tri-axis accelerometers is beyond me. The only reason you would want to use 2 3d accelerometers is if you want higher accuracy in rotation measurements, but for the type of application I see little gain in the extra accuracy. The Nintendo Wiimote only uses 1 3d accelerometer and the sensitivity is good enough. Here is a pdf that shows you what I'm talking about: http://kionix.com/App-Notes/AN005%20Tilt.pdf Notice how in figure 6 the angle of the different axis effect the tilt sensitivity. - David Mauro Iazzi wrote: On 05/06/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your tracking movement with 2 3D accelerometers... What would another one provide. As far as I can tell (I am not an expert...) Tracking all 6 vectors will tell you absolute movement in space. I.e, when 2 vectors point in the same direction with the same magnitude at approximately the same acceleration as gravity.. Its probably laying or positioned flat on that side. Probably is the key here. with two 3d (linear) accelerometers you cannot sense rotation around the axis between the two in an inertial frame of reference. Moreover you cannot distinguish if the Neo is laying face down or pushed downwards with 2mg force. This example is somewhat artificial, but means that you can probably find more realistic (though complicated) movements that are not distinguishable with only two accelerometers. You must then consider the errors which sum up, if you try to track. A rough mental estimate gives that you can sum up as much as 1 meter of error in ten seconds if you have a precision of 10^-3g over acceleration measure. (it does not mean that you are 1 meter away from the real position, it means that you can only be sure that you are at most 1 meter away from that). Most of the time you will need good assumptions to get any information from raw data: http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Motion_analysis can be of some help. No linear accel, no rotation, no tilt, are assumptions which can give some meaning to the data and can be done for single application, where you can assume the user will have some particular behaviour (or you require it). Still absolute tracking won't probably be anyhow realizable. --mauro ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
I think the reason for using accelerometers not solid state gyros is cost. Sean quoted $3 for accels on the list a while back, while 3 axis gyros with SPI were closer to $20 last I looked, and that was for one that wasn't available yet. Production will ramp up, prices will fall and a future OpenMoko will probably use an accel and a gyro, but for now 2 accels gets you most of the way there for several $ less. Compass would be interesting, to me at least. On Tuesday 05 June 2007 17:54, Ortwin Regel wrote: Including more than one accelerometer doesn't really make sense I think because there are rotation sensors for detecting rotation. I have one in my DS Motion ( ndsmotion.com ) which can detect rotation around one axis. Include 3 of those (or probably a combined one) and you are good to go. In addition it would also make sense to include an electronic compass. Combined with the GPS, you should then always know where on earth you are and which direction you are facing. Ortwin On 6/5/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 7:52, Mauro Iazzi wrote: On 05/06/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your tracking movement with 2 3D accelerometers... What would another one provide. As far as I can tell (I am not an expert...) Tracking all 6 vectors will tell you absolute movement in space. I.e, when 2 vectors point in the same direction with the same magnitude at approximately the same acceleration as gravity.. Its probably laying or positioned flat on that side. Probably is the key here. with two 3d (linear) accelerometers you cannot sense rotation around the axis between the two in an inertial frame of reference. Moreover you cannot distinguish if the Neo is laying face down or pushed downwards with 2mg force. This example is somewhat artificial, but means that you can probably find more realistic (though complicated) movements that are not distinguishable with only two accelerometers. You must then consider the errors which sum up, if you try to track. A rough mental estimate gives that you can sum up as much as 1 meter of error in ten seconds if you have a precision of 10^-3g over acceleration measure. (it does not mean that you are 1 meter away from the real position, it means that you can only be sure that you are at most 1 meter away from that). Most of the time you will need good assumptions to get any information from raw data: http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Motion_analysis can be of some help. No linear accel, no rotation, no tilt, are assumptions which can give some meaning to the data and can be done for single application, where you can assume the user will have some particular behaviour (or you require it). Still absolute tracking won't probably be anyhow realizable. --mauro So are you saying that 3 3d accelerometers in a line with 2 on the end and 1 in the middle will allow you to distinguish between rotation around the center axis, etc? It would seem to me that there are some realistic assumptions which can be made to reduce error under normal usage. In addition, in a navigation sense it would seem that you can use gps to provide error correction and thus be at least as precise (or maybe not far from it) as the gps between times when you are out of gps signal (I.e. Tunnel) etc. Other than a navigation use, accelerometers will be useful for manipulating applications, but without a compass module, pointing or other types of external information apps might not be possible anyway. If that's true, then each program will have some assumptions built in for normal usage. Errors can be mostly ignored since what will usually matter will be the differences between vectors in very short timeframes OR the difference between the start vectors and the current vectors. If the phone is suddenly dropped or thrown that's probably detectable as an extreme motion and maybe ignorable. /shrug --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [SVHMPC] concept phone with only a touchscreen for UI
Well, Bradely's suggestion included making the flip transparent. If it's transparent, the button definitions can still be on the screen, instead of written on the buttons themselves. Now the only thing that is fixed is the shape of the button matrix. Personally, I'd like to see a touchscreen with some type of ability to raise dimples at any point under software control. Kind of like a braille reader on acid. If only such a thing existed. (does it?) --Steve On 6/5/07, Dylan McCall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A problem with the buttons layer is that now we have something very oriented towards one specific situation, so it seems less friendly for random development of stuff, such as full-screen games without actual buttons. Of course this cover would probably be removable, but if it were to happen it would have to be /very/ removable. A great feature to support, as has been discussed here, but not one to demand. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New HTC Touch
Ok, I do not know the cheap HTC's. The one I have and need for work uses a big and mighty XScale :) Well - the 612 MHz doesn't make the dialing software of WM5 in 640x480 faster. Really unusable. 2007/6/5, Oleg Gusev [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am Dienstag, 5. Juni 2007 18:17 schrieb Fabien: As a former HTC customer I can only agree: hardware is great Are you joking ? This is the cheapest mass-market HTC design based on OMAP850 CPU. Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New HTC Touch
Found a demo of Touchflo at http://www.htctouch.com/ Looks very similiar to the way the iPhone interface works. - Original Message From: Thomas Gstädtner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Oleg Gusev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2007 12:50:29 PM Subject: Re: New HTC Touch Ok, I do not know the cheap HTC's. The one I have and need for work uses a big and mighty XScale :) Well - the 612 MHz doesn't make the dialing software of WM5 in 640x480 faster. Really unusable. 2007/6/5, Oleg Gusev [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am Dienstag, 5. Juni 2007 18:17 schrieb Fabien: As a former HTC customer I can only agree: hardware is great Are you joking ? This is the cheapest mass-market HTC design based on OMAP850 CPU. Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [SVHMPC] concept phone with only a touchscreen for UI
Someone was telling me about a nano technology that could do this, but it's not anywhere near a product yet. But a good application might accelerate the transition from lab to product. Wish I could remember where I heard that... Another one I heard about was a way of generating a location-specific electrical charge, just strong enough to cause a sensation as your finger passed over it. Don't know where this was on the scale of lab vs. product, but might be worth looking into. I'll try to get more info on both of these. On Tue, 5 Jun 2007, Steven Milburn wrote: Well, Bradely's suggestion included making the flip transparent. If it's transparent, the button definitions can still be on the screen, instead of written on the buttons themselves. Now the only thing that is fixed is the shape of the button matrix. Personally, I'd like to see a touchscreen with some type of ability to raise dimples at any point under software control. Kind of like a braille reader on acid. If only such a thing existed. (does it?) --Steve On 6/5/07, Dylan McCall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A problem with the buttons layer is that now we have something very oriented towards one specific situation, so it seems less friendly for random development of stuff, such as full-screen games without actual buttons. Of course this cover would probably be removable, but if it were to happen it would have to be /very/ removable. A great feature to support, as has been discussed here, but not one to demand. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: New HTC Touch
Funny.. this is very similar to the interface we designed for the Wurlitzer Digital Jukebox remote control. Great minds think alike, I suppose. I like that HTC is trying to build something other than the most basic WinCE ports. I spend a lot of my day developing software on a HTC Apache, and if that phone was my daily driver, I would go insane. But having seen up close and personal how poorly HTC designs BSPs for WinCE, I can only say I hope this device works better. Also... has anyone seen the Prada phone? The guy who did the touchscreen drivers for that phone was at an eTel dinner this year and I've got to say, I really thought the interface was quite polished. I wouldn't call it revolutionary, but it seemed to have a lot of nice little touches to make it more delightful to use. So I think that even if the iPhone turns out to be a financial disaster (Newton 2007?) it will at least have advanced the notion that UI for mobile devices is important for feature phones. -Cheers -Matt H. On Jun 5, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Eric Heinemann wrote: Found a demo of Touchflo at http://www.htctouch.com/ Looks very similiar to the way the iPhone interface works. - Original Message From: Thomas Gstädtner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Oleg Gusev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2007 12:50:29 PM Subject: Re: New HTC Touch Ok, I do not know the cheap HTC's. The one I have and need for work uses a big and mighty XScale :) Well - the 612 MHz doesn't make the dialing software of WM5 in 640x480 faster. Really unusable. 2007/6/5, Oleg Gusev [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am Dienstag, 5. Juni 2007 18:17 schrieb Fabien: As a former HTC customer I can only agree: hardware is great Are you joking ? This is the cheapest mass-market HTC design based on OMAP850 CPU. Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [SVHMPC] concept phone with only a touchscreen for UI
On 6/5/07, Bradley Hook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steven Milburn wrote: Personally, I'd like to see a touchscreen with some type of ability to raise dimples at any point under software control. Kind of like a braille reader on acid. If only such a thing existed. (does it?) One word: expensive. Refreshable Braille displays do exist, and even the cheapest functional ones make the current cost of the Neo look like pocket change. Incorporating this sort of technology into the Neo would not only be expensive, but the mechanics of these things require a lot of maintenance, not a fun thing to have in a phone. While refreshable Braille on a touch screen would be the final goal for accessibility, I think the OP was talking about mimicking buttons, which I imagine wouldn't need to be nearly as precise. One 'bump' per finger-space requires a much smaller resolution than six bumps per finger-space (as is used in Braille). Mechanical movement is still the challenge, but reducing the actuators by a factor of 6 is a big help. Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [SVHMPC] concept phone with only a touchscreen for UI
Or invert the problem, instead of buttons, make holes. The touch sensitive surface is exposed through the holes, and you can feel which hole you are poking at. A relatively stiff transparent cover with holes in is easy to make (techshop.ws laser cutter :-) and clip onto the face of the phone. Adrian On 6/5/07, Joe Friedrichsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/5/07, Bradley Hook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steven Milburn wrote: Personally, I'd like to see a touchscreen with some type of ability to raise dimples at any point under software control. Kind of like a braille reader on acid. If only such a thing existed. (does it?) One word: expensive. Refreshable Braille displays do exist, and even the cheapest functional ones make the current cost of the Neo look like pocket change. Incorporating this sort of technology into the Neo would not only be expensive, but the mechanics of these things require a lot of maintenance, not a fun thing to have in a phone. While refreshable Braille on a touch screen would be the final goal for accessibility, I think the OP was talking about mimicking buttons, which I imagine wouldn't need to be nearly as precise. One 'bump' per finger-space requires a much smaller resolution than six bumps per finger-space (as is used in Braille). Mechanical movement is still the challenge, but reducing the actuators by a factor of 6 is a big help. Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Clarification Rant
Again, please only respond to my Clarification email if you have something FACTUAL. This is my rant email, so if you are just anxious like me then respond to this. I've been following the project for quite some time now and was anxiously awaiting being able to purchase the phone in March (when it was originally scheduled to be available for developers), but that date came and passed and at the time I was ok with the setbacks. However, almost three months have passed and there is still no hardware available for me. Now to top it all off there has been talk of a hardware revision that will include some really good upgrades (that I would normally just wait for). However, my phone is on the skids and I am going to need to make a purchase soon. This is by no means a threat or whatever, but I'm seriously considering jumping ship on the project because I don't like waiting for something that I have no idea will ever come to fruition. There are plenty of phones that I could have now that I would be perfectly content with and every day that my current phone lets me down just makes it harder to...keep waiting. Before someone says that's just the way it is with hardware projects can continue playing the waiting game, but you may have to do it without me. I guess the point of this is to say that I am 100% behind OpenMoko, and I wish you the best but considering the circumstances I may have to either catch you in September (or later). I really need some details if I am going to be able to delay purchasing any longer. -Jonathon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Iphone 3rd party development allowed...
So apparently Jobs decided to allow 3rd party software on the phone after all... Interesting development. --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Clarification Rant
I'm in the same situation. I need a phone, no question. The Neo 1973 is the phone I want, no question. The question is this: will the Neo1973 with WiFi be available by the time I cannot live without a phone for any longer? If the answer is no, I will be really disappointed, and it will probably be another two years before I will be able to economically justify a Neo1973. It isn't that I'm threatening anything... I love the concept of OpenMoko and plan to develop software for it, even if I can't get my hands on one. I wish the hardware team the best of luck, and I look forward to life in the trenches with the software team. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Iphone 3rd party development allowed...
From: Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] So apparently Jobs decided to allow 3rd party software on the phone after all... Interesting development. Yes, but how are they going to _support_ it? People complain about how much windows development tools cost. For $299.00 you can get a copy of VS.NET and develop moble apps that make your device do whatever you want. Todd W. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Clarification
ti, 2007-06-05 kello 17:41 -0500, Jonathon Suggs kirjoitti: I'll be short and concise. In the hopes that people with the same questions will read this... 1) Do we have a time frame for when the GTA-01 will be available? Not really. We know they have a set of phones, and they're doing QA for them. Possibly within a week or two, but still guesswork, and they don't understandably want to say much until they know they have it this time. 2) What are the details GTA-02? a) Is GTA-02 the version with WiFi, accelerometers, upgraded CPU, etc? Yes. And an upgraded battery and a GPU, with support for OpenGL ME and mpeg-4 acceleration. No information on how much of its features will be driver-supported at GTA-02 launch, or when the launch will be. 3) What hardware will be used for the official September launch? One rather doubts it'll be a September launch at this point. Anyway, GTA-02 will be the mass market hardware. 4) What (if any) incentive will be given for people to purchase the upgraded hardware come September (whatever it will be)? There have been allusions to a GTA-01 owner discount for GTA-02; exact terms have not been discussed in public, more accurate information is to be expected when GTA-01 actually starts shipping. I don't represent FIC. I don't speak for them. This is hearsay, but educated hearsay from sources on this list, #openmoko IRC channel including people working on the Neos, and presentations the developers have given. I consider this information factual enough to answer your mail, especially since it's not likely the developers are willing to answer you in any more certain terms at this point in time, so I'm trying to save everyone time by collecting and conveying this info now. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Iphone 3rd party development allowed...
Todd W wrote: From: Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] So apparently Jobs decided to allow 3rd party software on the phone after all... Interesting development. Yes, but how are they going to _support_ it? or for that matter, how many hoops do you have to jump thru to get your app onto the phone? i belive jobs at one time used the word simple to talk about the kind of apps one would be allowed to make (or move from osx to the phone iirc). so for all we know they are planing to make one able to create something similar to dashboard widgets but not much else. i just cant shake the feeling that the iphone will be a highly controlled environment, with apple as the guardian. hell, they have partnered up with ATT. and isnt mobile operators in the US notorious for locking down what phones can or cant do? i recall reading about bluetooth file transfer being removed and similar so that one had to use their network to transfer data to and from the phone and similar. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Iphone 3rd party development allowed...
As of yet, ATT hasn't disabled bluetooth like you mention. I bought a phone from Cingular/ATT only a couple months ago. (I chose them because I wanted a GSM phone so I could play with the Neo when it's available). I'm able to transfer music, pics, and other files from my computer to the phone without issue. My brother has a chocolate phone from Verizon, and can't move files from his computer to the phone via usb nor bluetooth. I think what you're saying may be true for Verizon and Sprint. --Steve On 6/5/07, kenneth marken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hell, they have partnered up with ATT. and isnt mobile operators in the US notorious for locking down what phones can or cant do? i recall reading about bluetooth file transfer being removed and similar so that one had to use their network to transfer data to and from the phone and similar. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Accelerometer Fundamentals (was Re: Neo1973 Update!)
I think the reason for using accelerometers not solid state gyros is cost. Sean quoted $3 for accels on the list a while back, while 3 axis gyros with SPI were closer to $20 last I looked, and that was for one that wasn't available yet. Production will ramp up, prices will fall and a future OpenMoko will probably use an accel and a gyro, but for now 2 accels gets you most of the way there for several $ less. Compass would be interesting, to me at least. Below being posted on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals In many environments, 1 accel + 3 axes compass would be good enough, and significantly better performing than the 2 accel solution. (compass chips are $10 or so for 3 axes) I note that that's a single axes gyro, the gold standard would be 3 axes accel, and 3 axes gyro, which will likely run $70 or so at 1K. snip Sigh - this wasn't the post I meant to comment on - but it'll do as it's late - I wrote this and the webmail system timed out, and I can't find the original post - anyway. This discusses the possibilities of two 3-axis accelerometers. Actual neo-based conclusions, and what you don't need two for are at the end. What can be done with absolutely perfect devices? Imagine two three axis accellerometers rigidly placed on each end of an arrow. How much information do you get out of these? A few moments thought should reveal that the orientation of the sensors does not matter. You can resolve the three signals into one vector and magnitude. This does not change however the devices are oriented - there is no benefit in for example skewing one 45 degrees. Considering the case in deep-space - the maths are simpler. (not a common use-case, but simpler to analyse) Holding the orientation steady, you can do perfect inertial navigation, and determine exactly where you are at all times. (in a flat space-time, but meh) What happens when we vary the orientation? Well - it's obvious that you can subtract any common accelleration that's measured by both sensors - this does not change the orientation. Remembering that we can skew the sensors against each other, and this has no effect, let's specify that they are oriented with X and Y lined up, and Z pointing in the direction of the arrow. This reveals a problem. Spin the arrow on its axis, and none of the accelererometers measure anything at all - they do not move, so they do not accelerate. (you can't get round this by moving them off-axis, as you can draw an imaginary arrow between the two accelerometers which has the same problem) Spin the arrow around its centre (it must spin around its centre logically if you've subtracted the overall acceleration) you can pick up pitch and yaw. Now, what if we add gravity in? With perfect accelerometers again, with Z axes pointing to the arrow tip. As long as the Z axes does not point in the same direction as gravity + current acceleration, then you can determine roll, pitch, yaw, and XYZ acceleration. If the Z axes does point to the acceleration vector, then you lose track of roll. In theory - with perfect accelerometers, this does not matter. Because you can never line it up perfectly. In practice, with real ones, it gets more complex. Roll signal/noise will drop as the acceleration vector closes on the Z axes, and be useless once it gets within the noise. I suppose I'd better back this up with numbers. I'm assuming specs similar to the ADXL330 - simplified a little. Assumptions: The Neo is a rigid object, and the accelerometers are rigidly fixed to it. The A/D has no noise. The accellerometer is perfect, other than a noise of 300uG/sqrt(Hz), and a temperature sensitivity of +-.1mG/C. I'm neglecting cross-axis sensitivity - which will need calibrated out, and non-linearity. For interactive use. High-pass filtering the accelerometer with a bandwidth of 10Hz - you can't filter it much more than that or you lose important 'wobbles', because you need to integrate them to come up with a position - leads to a noise floor of 300uG/sqrt(Hz) *sqrt(10Hz) = 1mG. (RMS (No, not that RMS)) Neglecting roll for the moment. 1mG is an accelleration of 1cm/s^2. If the accelerometers are spaced 10cm apart, then the radius between each and the center is 5cm, meaning the circumference of the circle is 30cm. Integrating over 1s, noise is around 3cm/s^2. After 1s, if you happen to hit an average noise peak in each accellerometer at the opposite point - something that'll happen once every 5-10 seconds or so, (absolute peaks are much worse) what happens to the pointing? Well - the velocity reads out as 6cm/s^2 wrong, which means that the position is now out by 3cm, or 10 degrees. What does this mean though? Well, if we are more or less stationary, we have 'down' very accurately. But that's almost all we have. Without roll, you cannot tell pointing. However, in the best case - phone on its back, accelleration vector down, and turning in a vehicle, you may be able to tell sharp turns, not
Re: Some thoughts about iphone openmoko
Fabien, One thing we miss in OSS and many commercial OSS mixes is someone in charge of UI who knows what is easy to use and what falls down. I get the feeling that FIC does not have a UI overlord. The UI improves from release to release, but there are some consistency etc issues I've noticed... for example: * the home screen is a good start for finger navigation, but once you choose an app (eg dialer) you need a stylus to get back to it. * clicking the white area for a popup keyboard is no good. You have to have a stylus to use the keyboard, so it could easily work to have an icon in the tray on the top right * the application switcher is itself an application which conflicts with some common sense interaction (it should pop up down, it's too complicated for a simple job) * the bottom bar says OpenMoko TaskManager and never changes * app dropdowns like contacts look good with new/create/delete right there, but this same thing is missing in the calendar app and the calendar makes a poor choice to use Quit instead of Close in its menu Are there big picture user guidelines in place? Something that defines what the app dropdown should contain for example? I guess it's up to us to complain about or fix the rough edges so it'll converge on something reasonable. Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Iphone 3rd party development allowed...
AhI see. /shrug. --Tim On 6/5/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sure Jobs and company are not blind to the strength of open source software and the boon it would provide if they made a freely available dev kit for the phone. As someone who worked at Apple for ten years, I can assure you that, for the most part, Jobs and company haven't got the slightest interest in open source software, other than a minimal amount of stuff available under a BSD-like license, allowing them to take it, do what they want with it, and then keep it to themselves. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko - We Need HYPE, and we need it yesterday!
ok, ok, i get it. No one else thinks its a good idea to promote the Neo1973 yet (well, no one has chimed in to agree with me) i guess we can save the hype until we have a real product, but i think that we're missing a big opportunity to let people know that something great is coming and they should consider saving their six hundred dollars to buy our better, less-expensive phone. but if now is not the time, i too can wait. but really, i can *barely* wait for this thing! -- start using Free software http://www.linux.org http://www.fsf.org It's a matter of Liberty not Price: Free Software exists to free you from the artificial constraints set by Apple and Microsoft. Free software is Unrestricted software. Get Free. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
