Google's Android has long road ahead
The good thing is that OpenMoko and Android are OpenSource. Then maybe the Androiddevelopers could take some basis/ideas to OpenMoko , and OpenMoko to Android. Ok the goal of OpenMoko is not the same as Android. Android is based on a lot of society and a lot of money, but I think that it will be interessting to have a look on the two and make some links with. -- Florent Delvaille ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Google's Android has long road ahead
Sadly I'm inclined to disagree, from the FAQs: Why did you pick the Apache v2 open source license? Apache is a commercial-friendly open-source license. The Apache license allows manufacturers and mobile operators to innovate using the platform without the requirement to contribute those innovations back to the open-source community. Because these innovations and differentiated features can be kept proprietary, manufacturers and mobile operators are protected from the viral infection problem often associated with other licenses. On 06/11/2007, Florent Delvaille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The good thing is that OpenMoko and Android are OpenSource. Then maybe the Androiddevelopers could take some basis/ideas to OpenMoko , and OpenMoko to Android. Ok the goal of OpenMoko is not the same as Android. Android is based on a lot of society and a lot of money, but I think that it will be interessting to have a look on the two and make some links with. -- Florent Delvaille ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: google open phone platform
On Monday 05 November 2007 22:16:03 Jeffrey Thomas wrote: Why did you pick the Apache v2 open source license? Correct, its a developer-friendly licenses, as they put it. I prefer the GPL because its a USER-friendly license. Let's not forget the group of users who were pretty vocal of the advantages of OpenMoko NOT being completely GPL (i.e. having commercial apps on/linking to it or it's toolkit). These folks said that they prefer OpenMoko to Qtopia BECAUSE it did not require them to put their own software under the GPL. These will be the users who want skin-deep freedom (=freedom for me, not freedom all users), and that are likely to jump ship. The tough question is how big this group actually is in the OpenMoko camp. OTOH, OpenMoko might actually benefit from this, as this also means more OSS exposure to the general public (even if somewhat skewed by large companies). There are two reasons a company goes the apache/BSD license way - they don't want to give back anything to the OSS community OR they do not want to be bothered with license issues, Google being in the latter group in my impression. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Google's Android has long road ahead
Hello, Doesn't it said allows manufacturers and mobile operators to innovate using the platform without the requirement to contribute those innovations back to the open-source community? So, it also says: it allows manufacturers and mobile operators to innovate using the platform contributing those innovations back to the open-source community So brave manufactures could develop open devices, like OpenMoko does. Perhaps, OpenMoko could join the OHA and keep its principles, or stay alone compiting against it. It's a matter of choice. Best regards, 2007/11/6, Joseph Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sadly I'm inclined to disagree, from the FAQs: Why did you pick the Apache v2 open source license? Apache is a commercial-friendly open-source license. The Apache license allows manufacturers and mobile operators to innovate using the platform without the requirement to contribute those innovations back to the open-source community. Because these innovations and differentiated features can be kept proprietary, manufacturers and mobile operators are protected from the viral infection problem often associated with other licenses. On 06/11/2007, Florent Delvaille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The good thing is that OpenMoko and Android are OpenSource. Then maybe the Androiddevelopers could take some basis/ideas to OpenMoko , and OpenMoko to Android. Ok the goal of OpenMoko is not the same as Android. Android is based on a lot of society and a lot of money, but I think that it will be interessting to have a look on the two and make some links with. -- Florent Delvaille ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://www.jsmanrique.es ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: google open phone platform
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:29:32 +0100 Attila Csipa [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Monday 05 November 2007 22:16:03 Jeffrey Thomas wrote: Why did you pick the Apache v2 open source license? Correct, its a developer-friendly licenses, as they put it. I prefer the GPL because its a USER-friendly license. Let's not forget the group of users who were pretty vocal of the advantages of OpenMoko NOT being completely GPL (i.e. having commercial apps on/linking to it or it's toolkit). These folks said that they prefer OpenMoko to Qtopia BECAUSE it did not require them to put their own software under the GPL. These will be the users who want skin-deep freedom (=freedom for me, not freedom all users), and that are likely to jump ship. The tough question is how big this group actually is in the OpenMoko camp. OTOH, OpenMoko might actually benefit from this, as this also means more OSS exposure to the general public (even if somewhat skewed by large companies). There are two reasons a company goes the apache/BSD license way - they don't want to give back anything to the OSS community OR they do not want to be bothered with license issues, Google being in the latter group in my impression. the problem is - if we DIDNT have full freedom (i disagree - license like GPL forcing you to GPL your app because it uses a public published API are not free. they are just someone else's idea of freedom. mine is that i can license my app freely as i please and make decisions on GPL vs BSD or whatever as fits me), then ALL these users would go for something like OHA. you alienated a set of users and developers by being so hard-line. :( ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Man this royally sucks for me. We only get 100% coverage because of the 850 band where I live. 1900 is being added slowly, but not anywhere close to full coverage. Anybody want a neo? I sure wish this information would have been provided _before_ the purchase. Jae ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: google open phone platform
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 13:42:24 you wrote: the problem is - if we DIDNT have full freedom (i disagree - license like GPL forcing you to GPL your app because it uses a public published API are not free. they are just someone else's idea of freedom. mine is that i can license my app freely as i please and make decisions on GPL vs BSD or whatever as fits me), then ALL these users would go for something like OHA. you alienated a set of users and developers by being so hard-line. :( OK, I don't want to turn this into a licensing debate (again), but as I see it it boils down that OpenMoko gives you freedom, it's just that we have (or at least I fail to see) no real consensus on what that freedom means (every man chooses for himself). I'm no GPL zealot, I can understand both people who agree with it, and those who think it might alienate some users (that was the argument against GPL Qtopia some time ago). Base OpenMoko is, as far as I can see, GPL. The toolkit, LGPL. From what you say, it somehow turns out Android is even more free than OpenMoko as it poses less restrictions on developers (no, I don't agree with that - yet - either, but it does sound that way). It's just OpenMoko who needs to make up it's collective mind about what sort of freedom it wants to provide to it's users AND developers. It is a fine balance of letting someone doing whatever he pleases, and at the same time not having to worry about his (non)contributions to the community, whether it be code or other support. So do we have something more substantial than a gut feeling that GPL (QTopia) is too restrictive, BSD (Android) is too uncontrollable and that OpenMoko is just the right amount/mix of freedom and control, do we just WANT OpenMoko to be the real free thing we were/are waiting for, no matter what the actual background is ? PS. This is a rethorical question, I won't reply with regard to licensing here. You don't have convince ME (if that was the alienating 'you' you were referring to), just consider it in your OWN comprehension of Free software (whatever the project or licence). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
First, thanks to Michael for giving the update. It is never good to have to be the bearer of bad news. However, this is huge! My probability of purchasing just dropped from 95% to about ~5%. I'm getting ready to move and not knowing what my coverage will be like in those areas is definitely a deal killer. I occasionally do some international travel and also spend time in more rural areas so quad-band coverage is an absolute must have (not just something I want for the warm fuzzies). I'm not going to be overly critical, but how does this just slip through the cracks? Although somewhat marginal, quad-band chipsets do cost more than tri-band. It just seems really really weird that ensure you have all of the functionality working would be an absolute no brainer. When putting all of the components together for a *PHONE* you would think that you would test, re-test, check, double-check and then triple check the actual *PHONE* components. My mind is pretty much blown over this one... -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Jae Stutzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 07:37:15 -0600 Man this royally sucks for me. We only get 100% coverage because of the 850 band where I live. 1900 is being added slowly, but not anywhere close to full coverage. Anybody want a neo? I sure wish this information would have been provided _before_ the purchase. Jae ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I too am on the must have 850 list. Unfortunately not all companies provide their individual coverage maps on that site, but the large PDFs http://www.coveragemaps.com/gsmposter_americas.htm and http://www.coveragemaps.com/gsmposter_world.htm look to be a composite of all the GSM providers, some of which add to the 850 range. I'm aiming for T-Mobile, and luckily they have 850 roaming agreements with companies that are in the areas in which I travel. j On Nov 5, 2007 9:36 PM, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 5, 2007 6:23 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a good point, Tupshin. You (and the community) can guide us as we try to figure out how to proceed. How many of you must have 850 MHz support, and would be satisfied with an 850/1800/1900MHz variant, and how many of you must have full quad-band? Please put your answers on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:November_6%2C_2007_Community_Update Michael I've already put myself down on the list for the 850 tri-mode. That'll work good nuff for me. But I also did some digging around on GSM World to hopefully answer my questions and others. If you take a quick look at http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_us.shtml which is the US list for GSM based operators, you will see it is universally 850 or 1900 (or both). In the case of ATT you can take a quick look at the two coverage maps: 850: http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=usnet=b2 and 1900: http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=usnet=be From what I can see in the maps for ATT is that 850mhz isn't as well rolled out, but where it is, has better coverage. 1900mhz is better deployed, but seems to be spotty when it comes to the fringes. But the short version is that without 850 access on the moko, I personally would be unable to use half the towers around here. I'm going to go as far as saying that 850 is critical for U.S. GSM. I'd suggest everyone find their country on GSM World: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml and check their providers. Unfortunately some of the maps don't differentiate between 850 and 1900 (for example Rogers Wireless in Canada). The other two Canadian carriers listed, and the Mexican seem to be 1900 only. So it looks like the US just wants to be different, as usual. -Jon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Yeah, I am pretty amazed at this one. Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Hank On 11/6/07, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First, thanks to Michael for giving the update. It is never good to have to be the bearer of bad news. However, this is huge! My probability of purchasing just dropped from 95% to about ~5%. I'm getting ready to move and not knowing what my coverage will be like in those areas is definitely a deal killer. I occasionally do some international travel and also spend time in more rural areas so quad-band coverage is an absolute must have (not just something I want for the warm fuzzies). I'm not going to be overly critical, but how does this just slip through the cracks? Although somewhat marginal, quad-band chipsets do cost more than tri-band. It just seems really really weird that ensure you have all of the functionality working would be an absolute no brainer. When putting all of the components together for a *PHONE* you would think that you would test, re-test, check, double-check and then triple check the actual *PHONE* components. My mind is pretty much blown over this one... -Jonathon -Original Message- From: Jae Stutzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 07:37:15 -0600 Man this royally sucks for me. We only get 100% coverage because of the 850 band where I live. 1900 is being added slowly, but not anywhere close to full coverage. Anybody want a neo? I sure wish this information would have been provided _before_ the purchase. Jae ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Isn't it possible that the FIC's main userbase, in Asia, doesn't have this band to worry about? I live in the US but it seems like all of these comments are focused on *our* coverage, like we're the center of the world... We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. That aside, I too use TMobile and would like to be able to use the mobile here; my coverage on the maps looks good in my urban area, but any roadtrips etc would indeed put the phone out of use. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 03:36, Jon wrote: I'd suggest everyone find their country on GSM World: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml and check their providers. Unfortunately some of the maps don't differentiate between 850 and 1900 (for example Rogers Wireless in Canada). The other two Canadian carriers listed, and the Mexican seem to be 1900 only. So it looks like the US just wants to be different, as usual. Afaik the first GSM phones all used 900Mhz. Some time later the 1800 and 1900 frequencies where added. The 850 frequency was introduced far later, I guess that's because the 900 band is used for something else in the US, at least, I hope that's the reason. AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. In all fairness to OpenMoko, I think 850 Mhz is only used by the USA and Canada, which only account for ~10% of mobile phones in the world. That's according to statistics at http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P7222 United States: 201.6m + Canada: 16.6m = 218.2m World: 2.14bn So the OpenMoko can still be used in 90% of the GSM world. Although, having said that, I feel people's pain. :-( Plus I guess you have to factor in that the number of potential OpenMoko users/developers/hackers in the USA is probably _way_ higher than 10%. :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, Jeffrey Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Isn't it possible that the FIC's main userbase, in Asia, doesn't have this band to worry about? I live in the US but it seems like all of these comments are focused on *our* coverage, like we're the center of the world... It really is hard to imagine them thinking that they were designing a phone for just outside the US. If that was their thinking, it certainly should have been clarified. Certainly a plurality of the first units sold, and perhaps a majority, have been sold in the US. Honestly, its hard to imagine an Open Source phone gaining much traction without US support. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. In all fairness to OpenMoko, I think 850 Mhz is only used by the USA and Canada, which only account for ~10% of mobile phones in the world. That's according to statistics at http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P7222 United States: 201.6m + Canada: 16.6m = 218.2m World: 2.14bn Yes, but that does not take into account types of phones. The world is full of super cheap phones that sell for a few dollars, particularly in developing nations. But This is a smart phone. And I strongly suspect the smart phone sales percentages are much larger than 10% in the US. So the OpenMoko can still be used in 90% of the GSM world. Although, having said that, I feel people's pain. :-( Plus I guess you have to factor in that the number of potential OpenMoko users/developers/hackers in the USA is probably _way_ higher than 10%. :-) Indeed. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 17:06, hank williams wrote: Yeah, I am pretty amazed at this one. Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. Frankly, i'm not that suprised, 850 really is a US thing. You are missing out on lot of phones because of the different frequency and the amount of control the operators have over phones. Really, the US is just starting to catch up with the rest of the world. Tri-band phones are fairly common over here (although recently most new phone have been quad-band), and frankly, they can be used throughout the world, except the US. Thats good enough for biggest part of all GSM users. Your the minority on the one. AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 04:13, Michael Shiloh wrote: I would guess that if we make such a variant, we would offer both, but I don't know for sure. Please realize that I'm just asking the question in anticipation that the information might be useful at some point. I'm not suggesting that we have any plans yet to do so. Depending on the issues involved a phone with a jumper and/or firmware/software switch between 850 an 900 could be a solution as well. I doubt there are much places where you can switch from 850 to 900 without having to cross an ocean first. I'd be inconvenient, but better that a phone with just 850 or 900 (and it might be preferable when producing it, because the phones will be identical again). AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 17:34, hank williams wrote: On 11/6/07, Jeffrey Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Isn't it possible that the FIC's main userbase, in Asia, doesn't have this band to worry about? I live in the US but it seems like all of these comments are focused on *our* coverage, like we're the center of the world... It really is hard to imagine them thinking that they were designing a phone for just outside the US. If that was their thinking, it certainly should have been clarified. Certainly a plurality of the first units sold, and perhaps a majority, have been sold in the US. Honestly, its hard to imagine an Open Source phone gaining much traction without US support. Common, take a look outside of your own borders. It's hard to inmagine an Open Source phone gaining any traction at all in the US, land of software patents, closed standards and telco control. There are quit a few OSS projects doing just fine despite being illegal in the US, an Open Source phone will do just fine without US support. And Nokia is not a US company, nor is Sony-Ericsson, both became major players in this market before there even was any form of GSM coverage in the US. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Yeah, because it's not like there are loads of smart phones being sold in Europe... It's Asia first, then Europe and the the America's, largely because the US had an incompatible system of their own for years. And you may be suprised about china too, 1% of the chinese buying a phone is as just as good as 4% of the US buying your phone. And it's far easier to gain marketshare in China then in the hugely locked-up US market. I feel your pain though, it would really suck to miss out on the neo because off dull things like frequency issues, and I really hope this will be resolved in some way. AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Tuesday 06 November 2007 17:22:22 Jeffrey Thomas wrote: Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. More interestingly, that it took a trip from Michael to Taiwan to get anyone to focus on it. If this substantially sets back the development effort, it really is a major blow to the project. Isn't it possible that the FIC's main userbase, in Asia, doesn't have this band to worry about? I live in the US but it seems like all of these comments are focused on *our* coverage, like we're the center of the world... Why were the phones shipped from the US, then ? Perhaps it would have made more sense to ship them from the EU where they seem to work fine and help many people save some dollars. Luckily, I got a friend of mine to bring the phone across the Atlantic and it seems to work with both major mobile providers in our country (Slovenia). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:37:39 -0800, Joshua Layne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hate to add to the fire on this one, but no 850 is a definite deal breaker. No quad-band is a serious limitation, as it has been marketed since inception as a quad-band phone. I see now that the openmoko.com page has been updated to state that it is a tri-band phone, not a quad-band phone - last night it clearly stated quad band. I just wish this had been clearly identified 3 or 4 months ago. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Howdy, I'm in Vancouver too, just tested my phone (motorola L2) against the 850/1900 network and it works (registers with fido) while 900/1800 doesn't. You can only select them in those pairs but I'm not sure how that will work on the neo. Can anyone clarify some more? Regards Dave On Mon, 2007-11-05 at 18:19 -0800, Justin Wong wrote: Quick (sorta stupid) question. I'm in Vancouver, Canada. What does not having 850 support mean? Thanks, Justin On Nov 5, 2007 6:08 PM, Tupshin Harper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, I was planning on buying a GTA02 as soon as its available, but no 850 is a deal breaker since I would be using it on ATT's network in California. I would certainly be willing to buy it without 900MHZ support, though. -Tupshin Michael Shiloh wrote: Unfortunately, this also affects the GTA02, which is now far too close to production to try to enable quad-band operation. An 850/1800/1900MHz variant has been suggested but this is not yet determined. Michael Randall Mason wrote: Will the GTA02 have the quad band board (full working quad band capabilities to end users)? On 11/5/07, *Michael Shiloh* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Community, I've just arrived in Taiwan and have figured out the quad band issue. The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Anyone interested in more details is welcome to email me. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Common, take a look outside of your own borders. It's hard to inmagine an Open Source phone gaining any traction at all in the US, land of software patents, closed standards and telco control. There are quit a few OSS projects doing just fine despite being illegal in the US, an Open Source phone will do just fine without US support. And Nokia is not a US company, nor is Sony-Ericsson, both became major players in this market before there even was any form of GSM coverage in the US. 1. did I say it was not possible to exist as a company without the US? No. What I said was that a plurality of smart phones are sold in the US. It is a major market. And a huge amount of OS work is done in the US. To design a phone that specifically cant really be sold in the US is dumb. It cuts out a huge potential market. And given the high level of competition, loosing 20 - 30% of your market opportunity is potentially deadly. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Yeah, because it's not like there are loads of smart phones being sold in Europe... loads. Is that a new unit of measure in europe? It's Asia first, then Europe and the the America's, largely because the US had an incompatible system of their own for years. And you may be suprised about china too, 1% of the chinese buying a phone is as just as good as 4% of the US buying your phone. And it's far easier to gain marketshare in China then in the hugely locked-up US market. Ok, so I guess this whole thing in your mind is really good biz dev strategy because they dont need the US. Lol. They need more strategists like you at FIC. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Just curious, I don't know much about the hardware in question, but is it just a firmware issue, or does the hardware have to physically change to move between the 900 or the 850 frequency? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, AVee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 06 November 2007 17:06, hank williams wrote: Yeah, I am pretty amazed at this one. Its really hard to imagine a company building a phone that didnt think through what frequencies were needed. Frankly, i'm not that suprised, 850 really is a US thing. You are missing out on lot of phones because of the different frequency and the amount of control the operators have over phones. I am rather surprised actually at your rebuttal saying its a US thing. Yes, our country is backwards with telecom laws, backwards with telecom monopolies, and backwards because they never innovate. We've -always- been 3 years behind Japan, about 1.5-2 behind europe, when the japanese networks are CDMA/3g-UMTS. Sadly the japanese have locked their handsets down to all get out, the frequencies dont match up, and we are deprived of wonderful handsets. I literally go to www.au.kddi.com and cry. While this is sadly a fact of the American mobile market it is not the cause for the Neo to be missing 850. When a phone comes out saying that its chipset is quad band, never 100% verifies this ability, and then apparently some oversight caused this to not be fully enabled, thats a major issue. I am extremely sad that this has happened, as now I will probably have to wait for the third total design revision to buy now. While Denver (where I reside) has great 850 and 1900 coverage, if I am unable to travel with my phone to certain areas where its 850 only, I will be at a loss. (My personal plea to FIC: go CDMA 1xEVDO-rev0/revA if at all possible for an american handset variation; And I am almost certain somewhere a chipset exists that could support both America and Japanese frequencies, as there are dual-mode phones available from AU. I hear Sprint is starting to activate non-sprint handsets as part of a settlement in California; they've taken said settlement for Cali and made it policy nationwide. This would allow the phone to be activated even without being 'sanctioned' by the network with their money-making phone customizations and such. ) This would be wonderful for data coverage too, and you would get the benefit of having an unlimited highspeed dataplan to kill with all the linuxy goodness that will be the Neo/whatever follows the Neo. I already plan to buy a small, battery powered portable EVDO dongle to WIFi adapter whenever an 850-able phone is released. I'd hide that in my backpack and have highspeed data on my neo on the go. :) Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Michael said above that it was a question of a physical hardware change: The chipset is capable of quad band but the board was laid out to only support 3 bands. So, 850Mhz is not supported on the GTA01 board. Instead we support 900/1800/1900MHz. Board layout is a hardware issue. On 11/6/07, Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just curious, I don't know much about the hardware in question, but is it just a firmware issue, or does the hardware have to physically change to move between the 900 or the 850 frequency? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
=== === On Tuesday 06 November 2007 11:46:11 am Mike Hodson wrote: I literally go to www.au.kddi.com and cry. Really? Literally? :p ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
Actually, http://openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html and http://openmoko.com/products-neo-base-03-hardware.html still state quad... On 11/6/07, Joshua Layne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:37:39 -0800, Joshua Layne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hate to add to the fire on this one, but no 850 is a definite deal breaker. No quad-band is a serious limitation, as it has been marketed since inception as a quad-band phone. I see now that the openmoko.com page has been updated to state that it is a tri-band phone, not a quad-band phone - last night it clearly stated quad band. I just wish this had been clearly identified 3 or 4 months ago. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Randall Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just curious, I don't know much about the hardware in question, but is it just a firmware issue, or does the hardware have to physically change to move between the 900 or the 850 frequency? From what people are saying its firmware, hardware, and FCC recertification. Basically at this stage in the game, its either a rather costly change, or an oversight that can only be corrected in the next major design revision of the Neo. GTA03 I would presume, although read this thread and the wiki for details. Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, Jeffrey Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: === === On Tuesday 06 November 2007 11:46:11 am Mike Hodson wrote: I literally go to www.au.kddi.com and cry. Really? Literally? :p I *have* shed tears looking at the amazing gorgeous super-huge-lcd flips that are as thin as a matchbook and almost as light. I cried when SonyEricsson decided to pull out of american CDMA; their Japan CDMA walkman slider was at the time (2 years ago) the perfect phone for me. It still beats, in sheer functionality, any of the new phones I've seen come from american carriers. I wish I could remember the AU model # but I bet there are even better examples now. Mike ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Chumby on OpenMoko/Neo1973?
Would it be possible to run the Chumby ( http://chumby.com/ ) software on OpenMoko / the Neo1973? What would it take to make this possible? Why do I want it? Imagine it like this: Plug your Chumby equiped OpenMoko device into the USB charging cable (/cradle). Let it sit for a while. After five minutes of no activity, the Chumby software starts up automatically and displays flash widgets, just like a Chumby would. With a simple press of the power button, you get out of Chumby and back into OpenMoko. Makes sense, doesn't it? Why get another immobile device if you've got all the hardware to run Chumby software in your Neo? It might still make sense if you want a permanent Chumby beside your bed or multiple around the house. Many people probably would not want to get the hardware twice, though, so it would make sense to make their Neos work as part time Chumbys. In the GTA02, we should have all the necessary hardware with accelerometers and Wifi. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 52, Issue 11
The product page still says that it is quad band http://openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html I think they will make the 850 version for the us market though I would prefer an operational quad band neo 1973 finally (as in 2008 atleast) Rakshat On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:37:39 -0800, Joshua Layne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hate to add to the fire on this one, but no 850 is a definite deal breaker. No quad-band is a serious limitation, as it has been marketed since inception as a quad-band phone. I see now that the openmoko.com page has been updated to state that it is a tri-band phone, not a quad-band phone - last night it clearly stated quad band. I just wish this had been clearly identified 3 or 4 months ago. -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On Nov 6, 2007 6:39 PM, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Common, take a look outside of your own borders. It's hard to inmagine an Open Source phone gaining any traction at all in the US, land of software patents, closed standards and telco control. There are quit a few OSS projects doing just fine despite being illegal in the US, an Open Source phone will do just fine without US support. And Nokia is not a US company, nor is Sony-Ericsson, both became major players in this market before there even was any form of GSM coverage in the US. 1. did I say it was not possible to exist as a company without the US? No. What I said was that a plurality of smart phones are sold in the US. that's not true. I don't know the exact numbers, but i DO remember that the US are only at the nineth or tenth place of the smartphone-buyers-list. It is a major market. hm.. no. In the us the mobile communication sector ISN'T a major market at all. Ok, my information is not thaat up to date (2005-2006), but if we compare: italy and germany togheter have more active mobile phones then the whole usa. (actrually in italy we have 2.5 phones per person :D ) And a huge amount of OS work is done in the US. ok, that's true. But that doesn't mean that less is done outside the usa. To design a phone that specifically cant really be sold in the US is dumb. As above, in 2005/2006 only 12% of the announced phones could be used in the usa. I don't know if ou have ever been in a phone shop in europe or asia.. compare it to the usa and you'll cry to. It cuts out a huge potential market. And given the high level of competition, loosing 20 - 30% of your market opportunity is potentially deadly. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Yeah, because it's not like there are loads of smart phones being sold in Europe... loads. Is that a new unit of measure in europe? If you have no exact data, you have to approximate. The countries with the highest phone/person ratios are japan, finnland, italy, spain and germany. I wouldn't say this are third world countries, so you can assume we are not speaking of old nokia 3310, but probably some really hig-tech phones. It's Asia first, then Europe and the the America's, largely because the US had an incompatible system of their own for years. And you may be suprised about china too, 1% of the chinese buying a phone is as just as good as 4% of the US buying your phone. And it's far easier to gain marketshare in China then in the hugely locked-up US market. Ok, so I guess this whole thing in your mind is really good biz dev strategy because they dont need the US. No one sais they don't need usa. Just if they have to drop usa or rest of the world.. i would choose usa. Lol. They need more strategists like you at FIC. I think they would need more testers, as we saw.. Hank Stefan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com My work: http://unicoinuffico.wordpress.com Before printing this email, assess if it is really needed. Thank you. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Chumby on OpenMoko/Neo1973?
What are the features of the chumby? Wi-fi connectivity • access to the free Chumby Network • 3.5 LCD color touchscreen • two external USB 2.0 full-speed ports • 350 MHz ARM processor • 64 MB SDRAM • 64 MB NAND flash ROM • stereo 2W speakers • headphone output • squeeze sensor • accelerometer (motion sensor) • leather casing • AC adapter included I think the GTA02 would handle that just fine. The only thing it's missing is the squeeze sensor. -Steven On 11/6/07, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to run the Chumby ( http://chumby.com/ ) software on OpenMoko / the Neo1973? What would it take to make this possible? Why do I want it? Imagine it like this: Plug your Chumby equiped OpenMoko device into the USB charging cable (/cradle). Let it sit for a while. After five minutes of no activity, the Chumby software starts up automatically and displays flash widgets, just like a Chumby would. With a simple press of the power button, you get out of Chumby and back into OpenMoko. Makes sense, doesn't it? Why get another immobile device if you've got all the hardware to run Chumby software in your Neo? It might still make sense if you want a permanent Chumby beside your bed or multiple around the house. Many people probably would not want to get the hardware twice, though, so it would make sense to make their Neos work as part time Chumbys. In the GTA02, we should have all the necessary hardware with accelerometers and Wifi. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
The facts don't matter a bunch in this discussion for me. I think that we should vote for what we want and be grateful that ANYBODY is willing to put this kind of backing for an open source project. I haven't been around in the F/OSS community for long (maybe 8 years or so), but I really think that our attitudes should always be of thankfulness and never of entitlement. I really feel like there has been a big shift in what people expect now that there are large companies throwing money at the community. Look at what happened when nVidia started providing binary drivers. People got all entitled and demand that they release source code. Where do you have the rite to tell them what to do with their IP. We only have the right to ask, vote with money, and reverse engineer things in countries where that is still legal. Linux is about the people creating and giving, not corporations creating and giving. Most projects didn't start with giant corporate benefactors. I think it's unfortunate that this project was/is advertised as a quad band phone when it just has a quad band chip. I still don't think we have the right to tell them what they should/have to do. We are the consumers, but we are also being given something that no other company has ever been kind enough to give. These people are willing to make hardware without the locking that US companies pay other phone manufactures to do. Look at the iPhone, it's the exact opposite. It is closed source and it is locked. I don't know how much ATT pays Apple to sell only to ATT customers, but I'm sure that FIC is losing a pretty penny by not making deals with carriers to lock up their hardware. Lets try to look at all of this more as the rich benefactor FIC reaching out to the freedom fighters. Vote and we'll see if we can get this phone fully functional in the US market. I'd love to see it. I love my Zaurus and can't wait to have one that is internet connected 24/7. I'm thankful for my Zaurus. I'm thankful that it runs Linux. I'm thankful that another company is putting money into putting out a cell phone with Linux. I hope that we in the US can be a big enough market to make it succeed where the Zaurus flopped. As much as I believe that Linux is ready for everything (Server, Set Top Box, Desktop, PDA, Cell Phone), I don't think people, the consumers, are ready to buy everything with Linux. People never think Hmm, TiVo, it runs Linux, right? I'll get one!. Linux is still not a feature to most people in the US. Why do you think we still have so many unfriendly laws? The public still doesn't care. To be a force in the US you have to have features, not freedom. Sad, I know. Randall (ClashTheBunny) On 11/6/07, ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 6, 2007 6:39 PM, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Common, take a look outside of your own borders. It's hard to inmagine an Open Source phone gaining any traction at all in the US, land of software patents, closed standards and telco control. There are quit a few OSS projects doing just fine despite being illegal in the US, an Open Source phone will do just fine without US support. And Nokia is not a US company, nor is Sony-Ericsson, both became major players in this market before there even was any form of GSM coverage in the US. 1. did I say it was not possible to exist as a company without the US? No. What I said was that a plurality of smart phones are sold in the US. that's not true. I don't know the exact numbers, but i DO remember that the US are only at the nineth or tenth place of the smartphone-buyers-list. It is a major market. hm.. no. In the us the mobile communication sector ISN'T a major market at all. Ok, my information is not thaat up to date (2005-2006), but if we compare: italy and germany togheter have more active mobile phones then the whole usa. (actrually in italy we have 2.5 phones per person :D ) And a huge amount of OS work is done in the US. ok, that's true. But that doesn't mean that less is done outside the usa. To design a phone that specifically cant really be sold in the US is dumb. As above, in 2005/2006 only 12% of the announced phones could be used in the usa. I don't know if ou have ever been in a phone shop in europe or asia.. compare it to the usa and you'll cry to. It cuts out a huge potential market. And given the high level of competition, loosing 20 - 30% of your market opportunity is potentially deadly. We're not, nor do we have nearly the largest possible sales base. It is not true to say that we dont *nearly* have the largest base. whatever the numbers are, particularly for smart phones, I would be shocked to hear the US was anything but one of the top markets. Only japan could compete as a potentially larger market in asia. Certainly they are not going to be selling tons of these in China. Yeah, because it's not like there
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
On 11/6/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. did I say it was not possible to exist as a company without the US? No. What I said was that a plurality of smart phones are sold in the US. It is a major market. And a huge amount of OS work is done in the US. To design a phone that specifically cant really be sold in the US is dumb. It cuts out a huge potential market. And given the high level of competition, loosing 20 - 30% of your market opportunity is potentially deadly. A bunch of unresearched Americanist BS snipped Seriously, dude, I don't know how you could have gotten that idea that people in the US comprise a semi decent amount of the smart phone market. We don't. We're not even close to the top 5. I stopped being amazed a long time ago at how few people in the US are aware phones can be used for anything other than making calls and downloading ringtones. Don't even get me started on the topic of unlocked phones. Check your facts and assumptions Hank. As of 2006, symbian S60 phones made up about 70% of the smart phone market. Nokia, the maker of most symbian phones practically withdrew from the US market for a few years, which meant that if you wanted a Nokia smart phone in the US, you had to get it unlocked and unbranded... which again, most US consumers aren't aware that phones can be obtained from anywhere other than their cellphone companies. Nokia only just started making a bid back into the US market these past few months. So, there went almost 70% of smart phones that the majority of the US market were not even aware existed. Herehttp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdext/is_200610/ai_n19417023's a link giving the 70% figure in 2006. I vaguely recall an article I read this year saying symbian phones were down to maybe 56-62% of smart phones, but either way, it's still a very significant amount. You say smart phone in the US and people automagically think windows mobile, treos, crackberries. US consumers may buy a large number of these phones (maybe even up to the 20-30% you mentioned), but that's only about 30-40% of all smart phones available. This articlehttp://www.cellular-news.com/story/20959.phpcompares smart phone adoption among recent buyers as of the time of writing in different countries - US adoption was pretty abysmal back in 2006. While I'm sure it's increased since then, 20-30% is still a very far stretch. I think 8% would be more accurate. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
This article compares smart phone adoption among recent buyers as of the time of writing in different countries - US adoption was pretty abysmal back in 2006. While I'm sure it's increased since then, 20-30% is still a very far stretch. I think 8% would be more accurate. The problem is that a lot of the smartphone analysts differ in what a smart phone is. I have seen analyst statistics that say 20m smart phones were sold world wide in 06 and I have seen stats from other analysts saying 60m smart phones in the same time period. The 20m numbers include RIM, Windows Mobile, Palm, and only the high end Symbians. The reason for this is Nokia sells lots of Symbian phones that really have nothing to do with being smart, or substantively programmable, which is for me the real benchmark for smart phones. When you look at real smart phone sales - i.e. the 20m number, a very significant number of those are sold in the US. This is just based on the fact that most palms and blackberrys are sold in the US. The Neo is cutting edge and so really only comparable with the other high end phones. Bottom line is that Nokia uses statistics to try to claim a larger share of the smartphone market. But their symbian deployments are mainly in non-smartphones, and any numbers based on symbian as a real smartphone platform are deceptive. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
polz wrote: [...] Why were the phones shipped from the US, then ? Perhaps it would have made more sense to ship them from the EU where they seem to work fine and help many people save some dollars. thats simple: we had no shipping directly to customers at all before and we could get that service from a fic branch on quite short notice. at the factory there is no logistics which is suited to single pieces at all. so all the phones went to the us and got distributed from there. kind regards -- Joachim Steiger developer relations/support ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
n 11/6/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bottom line is that Nokia uses statistics to try to claim a larger share of the smartphone market. But their symbian deployments are mainly in non-smartphones, and any numbers based on symbian as a real smartphone platform are deceptive. Hank Anyone that calls themselves a smart phone analyst should know that Symbian S40 = nokia feature phone and Symbian S60 = nokia smart phone. However, knowing the sorry sorry state of journalism today, I won't disagree that said experts sometimes know squat about what they're analyzing. I'd say 60 mil smart phones sold in '06 sounds more likely considering how the N95 sold about 1.5 mil worldwide in only Q2 of 07 and other N series devices came in at about 7.5 mil for that 3 month period. Not to mention E series devices that sold 2 mil. Either way though, you can't argue that nokia is the largest mobile phone manufacturer and they're also the largest smart phone manufacturer. Herehttp://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P8253is a more conservative estimate at 56% market share for S60 phones in 2006 as well as other statistics regarding the mobile industry. That website throws out 70.9 mil total smart phones sold in 2006 which sounds pretty reasonable. Again, the majority of S60 phones are sold in countries other than the US. Nokia moved their focus elsewhere because the majority of consumers here were not interested in smart phones until very recently. Granted the smart phone market in the US seems to have exploded this year with more WM and blackberry devices now that palm is practically dead but S60 phones are still scarce. Even if nokia only makes 50% of smart phones, that is ~45% of market share that US consumers have been completely excluded from. Let's say we buy up to 20-30% of the remaining smart phone market... that's still around 15% total market share. Let's face it, the US market isn't very important for a smart phone manufacturer. FIC could ignore the US market completely and still sell boatloads of the Neo. To be quite honest, I would prefer if the OM team held off on the US market for 6 months or so till they can implement quad band 3G and quad band GSM for a true world phone. They'll certainly be one of the first to support tmobile's AWS, which would really raise the chances of a US carrier adopting the phone. Here's to hoping. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
I recently joined this list after looking at the OpenMoko project for a few weeks now. I am a software engineer and a linux enthusiast, I planned on actively developing for the project creating 3rd party applications. I am now somewhat concerned with this thread. Am I to understand that support for US is limited? How limited? From what I have been researching, networks such as the ones ATT and T-Mobile deploy are supported by the Neo. Am I mistaken? I am going to purchase the developers edition this week - if this is supported on the T-Mobile network. I currently have a T-Mobile MDA, which is to my knowladge supported by OpenMoko. Unless, again, my research has failed me. Basically my main question is if the Neo is supported on the T-Mobile network? Thanks, Raymond ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: google open phone platform
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:28:30 +0100 Attila Csipa [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: my main point was - it's good we don't go the extreme GPL everything - force anyone who writes anything on/for openmoko to be GPL path. this is not freedom for a set of people. i'd say its a large set of people. if we did go down that road - android would find it trivial to garner a large support base that we would never be able to reach. with the mix we have - apps being mixed of gpl, bsd, mit etc. and libraries almost entirely lgpl or bsd and mit, we keep the door open for these people. it's a good thing. On Tuesday 06 November 2007 13:42:24 you wrote: the problem is - if we DIDNT have full freedom (i disagree - license like GPL forcing you to GPL your app because it uses a public published API are not free. they are just someone else's idea of freedom. mine is that i can license my app freely as i please and make decisions on GPL vs BSD or whatever as fits me), then ALL these users would go for something like OHA. you alienated a set of users and developers by being so hard-line. :( OK, I don't want to turn this into a licensing debate (again), but as I see it it boils down that OpenMoko gives you freedom, it's just that we have (or at least I fail to see) no real consensus on what that freedom means (every man chooses for himself). I'm no GPL zealot, I can understand both people who agree with it, and those who think it might alienate some users (that was the argument against GPL Qtopia some time ago). Base OpenMoko is, as far as I can see, GPL. The toolkit, LGPL. From what you say, it somehow turns out Android is even more free than OpenMoko as it poses less restrictions on developers (no, I don't agree with that - yet - either, but it does sound that way). It's just OpenMoko who needs to make up it's collective mind about what sort of freedom it wants to provide to it's users AND developers. It is a fine balance of letting someone doing whatever he pleases, and at the same time not having to worry about his (non)contributions to the community, whether it be code or other support. So do we have something more substantial than a gut feeling that GPL (QTopia) is too restrictive, BSD (Android) is too uncontrollable and that OpenMoko is just the right amount/mix of freedom and control, do we just WANT OpenMoko to be the real free thing we were/are waiting for, no matter what the actual background is ? PS. This is a rethorical question, I won't reply with regard to licensing here. You don't have convince ME (if that was the alienating 'you' you were referring to), just consider it in your OWN comprehension of Free software (whatever the project or licence). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Community update: The 850 MHz issue
When you look at real smart phone sales - i.e. the 20m number, a very significant number of those are sold in the US. This is just I think Nkoli's point was that if you are going to say something like A very significant number, it might be better to back it up with a reference to some statistics on the net somewhere. I happen to think your probably right, but personally I tend to dismiss comments which don't cite a reference. winmail.dat___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 52, Issue 11
rakshat hooja wrote: The product page still says that it is quad band http://openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html thanks for pointing me to it. seems i missed to update one of the servers. - it should be fixed now. I think they will make the 850 version for the us market though I would prefer an operational quad band neo 1973 finally (as in 2008 atleast) we are considering that for sure. currently we need to work out the necessary details and test that before we know exactly if it works as we imagine, so please stay tuned, we will tell you more when we know it ourselves. -- Joachim Steiger developer relations/support ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Gphone and 850, perspectives
Pheef. I'll just say my piece on these current events, among other things in the hopes of getting some perspectives to people, perhaps calming some storms a bit if lucky. 850 MHz: 1) Sucks for NA people, for sure. Luckily I have no intention of traveling there (well, maybe Canada sometime), but I feel the pain of those stuck there. 2) It _does_ seem like a big blunder on the part of FIC. 3) Hardly screws up the whole project, even if it is a blow. 4) No use crying over spilled milk. (Exception: Those who cry direct to FIC, and not on lists, about returning phones should IMAO be accommodated; they bought a quad-band device, even if it was a development one. However, in the interest of expediency, it'd be nice if those devices could find new homes directly instead. A wiki-page for I'll buy your triband GTA01 off you, perchance?) 5) Let's hope they can make a 850-capable triband in some reasonable timeframe afterwards. (Or of course full quad, but seemed from Michael's comments that the former was somewhat more likely, even if it's not guaranteed either.) Gphone/Android: 1) Gphone/Android is still vapor, Neo/OpenMoko works as a rudimentary phone already at least (using it as my daily phone myself since my ages old phone died a week ago or so). The vapority of Android also makes any statements (including mine here) about it very much guesswork. 2) The Open Handset Cabal isn't really very open in its attitudes as witnessed http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/android_faq.html 3) Google's actual phone product seems likely to not offer users the benefits of an open platform, just the system developers. This is indicated by the FAQ above and Google's interest in pushing ads to users. 4) Android-using system developers seem to also otherwise be pretty much encouraged to go proprietary as much as they like (and partners like NTT DoCoMo do like). Also considering the presence of parties like Nvidia, proprietary drivers are probably very much in game. 5) I would personally like, and expect, the OpenMoko team to push on; the people here have earned my trust with respect to trying to maximize freedom also for the indie developers and users, even if there have been other sorts of issues on the way. 6) That said, if the core of Android will indeed be free, it should be possible to grab useful stuff from it over to OpenMoko (for instance the announced VM plus libraries) for compatibility and all that jazz, if the platform will reach relevancy. Integration work would be required, of course; it'd not be gratis. 7) Also, if/when there is a free core Android system to speak of available, it shouldn't likely be overly difficult to port to the Neo. Thus a Neo purchase is protected in relevance even in the case that Android is all that it's hyped up to be and blows OM out of the water. (Not implying anything about the likelyhood of said occurance, merely pointing out that purchasers of the designed to be Linux-friendly Neo aren't really threatened to lose anything here.) 8) In the same spirit as above, in the event that at some point in the future FIC/OM would see Android rather than OpenMoko as the way to move forward, I would hope and expect them to continue making sure there are as free and open as possible mobile computing solutions available. Meaning, they'd hopefully would continue the good work they've done in designing the Neo, more spesifically the GTA02, not require (or ship with) proprietary stuff on the Linux system side, with many in-house developed free drivers to boot. If Android takes off, there will certainly be largely proprietary offerings based on it (as there are ones based on Qtopia). It is crucial that there will also be freedom-maximizing products, be they OpenMoko or Android based. (Heck, one could imagine an OM-branded 100% free Android system. But that's getting ahead of things again; let's reiterate that Android is vapor, and I'm still rooting for OpenMoko, merely not fanatically so.) The road ahead will perhaps be more interesting than especially those with heavy personal investments on OpenMoko would like. Let's try and make the best of it. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Mikko Rauhala wrote: Those who cry direct to FIC, and not on lists, about returning phones should IMAO be accommodated; they bought a quad-band device, even if it was a development one. However, in the interest of expediency, it'd be nice if those devices could find new homes directly instead. A wiki-page for I'll buy your triband GTA01 off you, perchance?) Great idea. I'll set this wiki page up (or any of you could). And thanks for your thoughtful and detailed perspective! Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gphone and 850, perspectives
Mikko 850 MHz: 1) Sucks for NA people, for sure. Luckily I have no intention of traveling there (well, maybe Canada sometime), but I feel the pain of those stuck there. poor schmucks who are stuck in Canada. that's priceless. :) 2) It _does_ seem like a big blunder on the part of FIC. This is the kind of thing that makes leadership rethink the flow or responsibility and accountability in an organization. It may be a reason for the reorganizations we've heard about. It's a great idea to get the prototype phones out there, but it's a problem that the feedback that would have helped the situation didn't find its way to someone who was assigned to figure it out. Especially feedback like I've had the phone for months now and I haven't been able to make one phone call. -- Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: google open phone platform
I think the main difference with the Gphone and Neo will be open HARDWARE. It is unlikely that these major companies will allow you to do whatever you want with the hardware, or even release the docs so you can tinker with the hardware. But we shall see... __ Donnie ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community