Re: need someone to develop this....

[GWMobile]

I don't think discussing this here would be considered an open 
disclosure.
Talking on a finite list or limited membership with moderation and thus 
controlled membership is not necessarily open disclosure and not the 
same as a public printing therefore I think it would still be 
patentable.


On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 2:33 pm, Dean Collins wrote:
This is too perfect. What a cool idea - seriously unfortunately now 
that you've published here is no longer able to be but was worthy of a 
patenting.


Not only could the method of shaking but the timing of shaking could 
have been the key.


Eg hold two devices next to each other and shake them up and down - 
because of the semi-physical connection they would have the same 
accelerometer readings this couldn't be replicated unless you had 
someone 'watching' you move them up and down and was copying the 
movements within the tolerance errors.



Regards,
Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-212-203-4357
+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael 
Shiloh

Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 3:35 PM
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Subject: Re: need someone to develop this

 If Bob (or Alice) hands his (or her) phone to the other, then if both
 phones are shaken in the same hand, the acceleration pattern might
 provide an extremely unique yet similar signature, not unlike 
exchanging

 an encryption key.

 So if you want to establish a trusted relationship with another Neo
 user, the two phones are shaken together until the software indicates
 that you have generated a complex enough pattern that has been
 recognized on the other.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Darwin

Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:35 PM
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Subject: Re: need someone to develop this
Michael, this is (I think) brilliant!

We could call it... "the handshake" (OK, anyone who doesn't know why
that's funny, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handshaking).

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www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.


www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

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Re: Near-field comms (was Re: need someone to develop this....)

[Tim Newsom]

On Nov 30, 2007 4:59 PM, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Nov 30, 2007 1:34 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If Bob (or Alice) hands his (or her) phone to the other, then if both
> > phones are shaken in the same hand, the acceleration pattern might
> > provide an extremely unique yet similar signature, not unlike exchanging
> > an encryption key.
> >
> > So if you want to establish a trusted relationship with another Neo
> > user, the two phones are shaken together until the software indicates
> > that you have generated a complex enough pattern that has been
> > recognized on the other.
> 
>

All of this shake shake shake hand waving reminds me of some kind of tribal
dance.
Imagine having your phone in your pocket... you go to a dance club, out on
the floor having a great time and when you get home you discover that you
have accidentally exchanged phone numbers with 2 very attractive women, 1
not so attractive woman and 4 men
All who just happened to be dancing close enough and in the right rhythm
(within tolerances).

I am sure it would be interesting for them too

-- 
-- Tim
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Re: Community Update

[Jeremiah Flerchinger]

Standard Precision Service (SPS) for GPS is open to the general public 
and all information related to it should be unclassified, although some 
is For Official Use Only (FOUO).  Pres Bill Clinton made a Presidential 
Decree, when he was in office, that gave undiluted precision of SPS to 
the public.  SPS is presented in C/A code, which is a pseudo-random 
code, on the L1 band and is separate from military & Precise Position 
Service (PPS).   As long as only SPS and C/A code is used there 
/*should*/ be no problem. 

The only possible hang-up I can think of is there /*may*/ be a rule that 
imposes an altitude that consumer gps devices must fail to output 
positioning data above... but I can't remember.  Also a copy of the C/A 
code or the design of the Feedback Registers that generate the C/A code 
would have to be obtained.  That should be public information though. 

Any GPS radio used should probably be able to also receive on the L2 
band, in case we decide to try and implement our own tropospheric 
compensation algorithms to improve precision.  That isn't too big a deal 
though, because nav & almanac data would be good enough for most cases.


-Jeremiah


Kyle Bassett wrote:

Curiosity prevails:

I do see a few benefits to a device which is just a GPS radio, like 
what Ian has stated.  Would their be any legal ramifications to a 
reverse-engineered open source binary interpreter for the GPS radio?  
I saw a few people mention government concerns with having access to a 
very accurate GPS device, but what about Global Locate's license 
agreement (if any) by using their hardware?  I think a "GPS radio" 
would make an excellent open source project; allowing access to the 
specifics of GPS (theory) not available with closed firmware.


I wouldn't mind working on this project.

-Kyle

On Nov 29, 2007 9:46 PM, Ian Stirling <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Doug Sutherland wrote:
> Mikko wrote:
>> 2) Yes, it can make sense not to have a bazillion CPUs on board
from
>> various perspectives.
>
> I evaluated no less than 25 different GPS modules some years ago
> and compared them in all important aspects. Every single one had
> a microcontroller onboard. I do not agree that it makes any sense
> at all not to choose one of these types. They are down to the size
> of a thumbnail almost. Is the microcontroller a CPU, technically
> yes, but it's part of the receiver, and you want to do all this
fancy
> GUI and not suck the life of the battery from ARM9 usage. It is
> a good thing they ditched that GPS. It is now standard that any
> GPS module does have a microcontroller inside, most commonly
> some variant of ARM7, super low power, you never deal with
> any firmware.

(sorry for the late response)

To clarify why it might be nice - yes there are simplicity benefits
from just using a GPS with a NMEA output (or at least with that as an
option)

If the existing hardware had an open-source driver (there was some
progress towards such, but this has stalled since it was announced it
would not be used in GTA02) then many of these objections go away.

The following is based on preliminary work that has not been
completed,
and due to the lack of work on the current GPS may never be.

The device is basically only a software radio, that does the absolute
minimum to enable the host to avoid having to do hard-real time
stuff,
115200 baud serial is just fine.
As I understand it, the following things are possible, which are
difficult to do with 'normal' chipsets.

Wakeup once every 3 minutes for 1s, to maintain lock on satellites,
keeping a reasonable (say 50m) position accuracy, with the GPS totally
off in the interim. This (with the mobile phone part off) uses a very
small amount of power, enough to track for around 8 months.

Logging all parameters of the signal that the chip measures in
hardware,
 so that the track can be post-processed for better accuracy.

The option of delaying the output of the signal by 10s+, and being
able
to smooth the output based on the 'future' movement, not just the
past.
(this can dramatically improve tracks round sharp corners)

Being able to feed in information from the accelerometers to go
into the
position solution. (this is mainly useful in cars - the accels
give you
good turn rate info)

Using even 'failed' GPS satellites as position sources, with the
aid of
 AGPS (however, this is unlikely to be of use unless the GPS system
stops being maintained)

Easy tradeoffs between output noise and update frequency - few
devices
support updates faster than 1Hz.

User-provided AGPS correction information.


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Re: Near-field comms (was Re: need someone to develop this....)

[Ian Stirling]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I was wondering...

I did already suggest NFC in a post some days ago ("Hardware addition ideas for >(=) 
GTA03" on Sun Nov 25 19:36:23 CET 2007), but got absolutely no reaction (I suggested 
multi-SIM capability too), and now I am wondering what was so bad about *my* suggestion... 
;-)

But I'm glad to see that there are at least two other people who seem to think 
that this could become an important hardware addition in the future. It's 
better to be on the forefront of new trends (Nokia already has NFC phones) than 
just being in the bulk of the followers...
Security issues regarding NFC will hopefully be resolved.


NFC will be the next big thing.
Will it take off in 2010 or 2012 is probably a more accurate question 
though.


Very little hardware at the moment supports it, and yes, while this is 
of course a chicken and egg situation, nokia/... are probably the 
sensible people to push this at the moment.
It's going to be some time before the nice things that NFC enables 
become possible.


As to 'the hardware is the same as RFID tags' well, no.

There are about 6 different fundamental sorts of RFID tags, and perhaps 
hundreds of 'common' variations. Many of them due to the inherent 
physics and the tags sensitivity require physically large antennas.


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Re: need someone to develop this....

[Nkoli]

On Nov 30, 2007 3:34 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> If Bob (or Alice) hands his (or her) phone to the other, then if both
> phones are shaken in the same hand, the acceleration pattern might
> provide an extremely unique yet similar signature, not unlike exchanging
> an encryption key.
>
> So if you want to establish a trusted relationship with another Neo
> user, the two phones are shaken together until the software indicates
> that you have generated a complex enough pattern that has been
> recognized on the other.
>
> Once this has been established, they can exchange one of the standard
> encryption keys.
>
> All without pressing a single key, and without danger of exposing
> anything to other Neo or bluetooth devices within range.
>
>
You mean... like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktJC0S4_X58
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Re: need someone to develop this....

[Xavier Pianet]

Just add this http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Bluetooth_Proximity_Monitor on 
top ot it to add pseudo distance for more security and if you also swirl 
the rigth way while 'hand shaking' (ie cut external eavesdropping to 
sneak in) you should be relatively safe from an outside attacker



Tilman Baumann a écrit :

Beware. This is not a new idea. Patents? ;)

Btw. i would suggest bashing the phones together. (like a wood block 
instrument)
This will produce uinique paterns which do not depend very much on the 
resolution of the accelerometers and could easyly picket up by a 
legacy microphone of any hone without accelerometer.


Just my 2 Eurocent ;)

PS: Great idea indeed. We need this...

PS: I know Eve could hear the sounds of the phone bashing together and 
play a replay attack. But come on, it is Bluetooth.
The only reason Bluetooth is not considered insecure is frequency 
hopping. The crypro layer is lame.


Heikki Sørum wrote:

When were talking about different ways to use accelerometers..

Bob meet's Alice and they both want each others contact
information. First Bob and Alice shake their phones in an predetermined
password pattern to unlock the
bluetooth/zigbe/(whatever-short-range-radio). Then they both shake 
their phones in rythm to an short tune
playing on Alice's phone. The phones then pair with the other phone, 
exchange simple authkeys and Vcards.

Now Bob and Alice has authenticated each others phones and they got
each others phone number. Lucky Bob and Alice!

On an more serious note, Two such paired bluetooth devices could also
exchange an RSA/DSA encryption key to ensure private
SMS/MMS/conversations.

Heikki Soerum.




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Re: Near-field comms (was Re: need someone to develop this....)

[wolfgang_a_h]

I was wondering...

I did already suggest NFC in a post some days ago ("Hardware addition ideas for 
>(=) GTA03" on Sun Nov 25 19:36:23 CET 2007), but got absolutely no reaction (I 
suggested multi-SIM capability too), and now I am wondering what was so bad 
about *my* suggestion... ;-)

But I'm glad to see that there are at least two other people who seem to think 
that this could become an important hardware addition in the future. It's 
better to be on the forefront of new trends (Nokia already has NFC phones) than 
just being in the bulk of the followers...
Security issues regarding NFC will hopefully be resolved.

And, speaking of hardware additions and setting trends: I would *really* like 
to have a phone with the ability to keep more than one SIM active at the same 
time - see my previous post mentioned above for a link to an already available 
device with this ability.

greetings & cheers
Wolfgang

 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:59:10 -0700
> Von: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An: "List for OpenMoko community discussion" 
> Betreff: Near-field comms (was Re: need someone to develop this)

> On Nov 30, 2007 1:34 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If Bob (or Alice) hands his (or her) phone to the other, then if both
> > phones are shaken in the same hand, the acceleration pattern might
> > provide an extremely unique yet similar signature, not unlike exchanging
> > an encryption key.
> >
> > So if you want to establish a trusted relationship with another Neo
> > user, the two phones are shaken together until the software indicates
> > that you have generated a complex enough pattern that has been
> > recognized on the other.
> 
> This is the sort of thing that NFC (near-field communication) was
> supposed to make possible, except without the shaking... you just
> bring the phones near enough, or touching, so that the range-limited
> RF conversation can occur, and you could have instant pairing.
> 
> And from what I've read, the radio is the same for NFC as for RFID.
> So a phone equipped with such a radio can be useful for other things
> too:
> 
> - the privacy nuts worried about having RFID tags in everything can
> scan products and detect them
> 
> - read RFID sensors (some day when such things exist)
> 
> - scan something in the store and look up the reviews and price
> comparisons (since they will replace barcodes soon)
> 
> - use an RFID token (such as a smart card) for security authorization
> (such as for a web site you are browsing on the phone, or an SSH
> session)
> 
> - the phone could emulate an RFID tag (e.g. the phone could act as a
> security token in lieu of some other smart card)
> 
> - small-value money transactions.  In Japan, I read that NFC phones
> can already be used to purchase a soda, or pay for subway fare right
> at the turnstile.  Just touch the phone to the active spot on the
> turnstile and walk through.  Maybe the SIM's hardware could be used to
> execute a secure challenge/response sequence to authenticate the user,
> and the rest of the transaction is a service to be provided somewhere
> else.
> 
> It would be awesome if FIC could include an NFC/RFID radio in some
> future generation of phone.
> 
> In the meantime the shake is cool to implement authentication with the
> existing Neo, but it depends on making the idea popular enough so that
> pairing with other devices becomes possible.  BT headsets probably
> don't have acceleration sensors so far...  but at least for
> phone-to-phone pairing it sounds like something Nokia might do.
> Somebody could present the idea at a conference or two and see who
> else adopts it.
> 
> 

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Near-field comms (was Re: need someone to develop this....)

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Nov 30, 2007 1:34 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If Bob (or Alice) hands his (or her) phone to the other, then if both
> phones are shaken in the same hand, the acceleration pattern might
> provide an extremely unique yet similar signature, not unlike exchanging
> an encryption key.
>
> So if you want to establish a trusted relationship with another Neo
> user, the two phones are shaken together until the software indicates
> that you have generated a complex enough pattern that has been
> recognized on the other.

This is the sort of thing that NFC (near-field communication) was
supposed to make possible, except without the shaking... you just
bring the phones near enough, or touching, so that the range-limited
RF conversation can occur, and you could have instant pairing.

And from what I've read, the radio is the same for NFC as for RFID.
So a phone equipped with such a radio can be useful for other things
too:

- the privacy nuts worried about having RFID tags in everything can
scan products and detect them

- read RFID sensors (some day when such things exist)

- scan something in the store and look up the reviews and price
comparisons (since they will replace barcodes soon)

- use an RFID token (such as a smart card) for security authorization
(such as for a web site you are browsing on the phone, or an SSH
session)

- the phone could emulate an RFID tag (e.g. the phone could act as a
security token in lieu of some other smart card)

- small-value money transactions.  In Japan, I read that NFC phones
can already be used to purchase a soda, or pay for subway fare right
at the turnstile.  Just touch the phone to the active spot on the
turnstile and walk through.  Maybe the SIM's hardware could be used to
execute a secure challenge/response sequence to authenticate the user,
and the rest of the transaction is a service to be provided somewhere
else.

It would be awesome if FIC could include an NFC/RFID radio in some
future generation of phone.

In the meantime the shake is cool to implement authentication with the
existing Neo, but it depends on making the idea popular enough so that
pairing with other devices becomes possible.  BT headsets probably
don't have acceleration sensors so far...  but at least for
phone-to-phone pairing it sounds like something Nokia might do.
Somebody could present the idea at a conference or two and see who
else adopts it.

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Re: need someone to develop this....

[Tilman Baumann]

Beware. This is not a new idea. Patents? ;)

Btw. i would suggest bashing the phones together. (like a wood block 
instrument)
This will produce uinique paterns which do not depend very much on the 
resolution of the accelerometers and could easyly picket up by a legacy 
microphone of any hone without accelerometer.


Just my 2 Eurocent ;)

PS: Great idea indeed. We need this...

PS: I know Eve could hear the sounds of the phone bashing together and 
play a replay attack. But come on, it is Bluetooth.
The only reason Bluetooth is not considered insecure is frequency 
hopping. The crypro layer is lame.


Heikki Sørum wrote:

When were talking about different ways to use accelerometers..

Bob meet's Alice and they both want each others contact
information. First Bob and Alice shake their phones in an predetermined
password pattern to unlock the
bluetooth/zigbe/(whatever-short-range-radio). 
Then they both shake their phones in rythm to an short tune
playing on Alice's phone. The phones then pair with the 
other phone, exchange simple authkeys and Vcards.

Now Bob and Alice has authenticated each others phones and they got
each others phone number. Lucky Bob and Alice!

On an more serious note, Two such paired bluetooth devices could also
exchange an RSA/DSA encryption key to ensure private
SMS/MMS/conversations.

Heikki Soerum.




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Re: need someone to develop this....

[Michael Shiloh]

WJCarpenter wrote:

Eg hold two devices next to each other and shake them up and down


Hmm, I think I can see what's coming, based on watching many wacky comedies 
over the years.  Things will get switched.  Alice
will end up with the Neo full of cash while Bob wanders away with the Neo containing two pairs of socks and a cheese sandwich. 
Hilarity ensues.



In the space of one posting it goes from a patentable idea to a sitcom.

Michael

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RE: need someone to develop this....

[WJCarpenter]

> Eg hold two devices next to each other and shake them up and down

Hmm, I think I can see what's coming, based on watching many wacky comedies 
over the years.  Things will get switched.  Alice
will end up with the Neo full of cash while Bob wanders away with the Neo 
containing two pairs of socks and a cheese sandwich. 
Hilarity ensues.



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RE: need someone to develop this....

[Dean Collins]

This is too perfect. What a cool idea - seriously unfortunately now that you've 
published here is no longer able to be but was worthy of a patenting.

Not only could the method of shaking but the timing of shaking could have been 
the key.

Eg hold two devices next to each other and shake them up and down - because of 
the semi-physical connection they would have the same accelerometer readings 
this couldn't be replicated unless you had someone 'watching' you move them up 
and down and was copying the movements within the tolerance errors.


Regards,
Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-212-203-4357
+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).
 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Shiloh
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 3:35 PM
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Subject: Re: need someone to develop this
> If Bob (or Alice) hands his (or her) phone to the other, then if both 
> phones are shaken in the same hand, the acceleration pattern might 
> provide an extremely unique yet similar signature, not unlike exchanging 
> an encryption key.
> 
> So if you want to establish a trusted relationship with another Neo 
> user, the two phones are shaken together until the software indicates 
> that you have generated a complex enough pattern that has been 
> recognized on the other.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Darwin
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:35 PM
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Subject: Re: need someone to develop this
Michael, this is (I think) brilliant!

We could call it... "the handshake" (OK, anyone who doesn't know why 
that's funny, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handshaking).

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Re: Professional applications

[Jay Vaughan]

Not recommended without a usb keyboard..




Bluetooth keyboards work great!  I consider my neo1973+Apple Wireless  
BT keyboard a fantastic pair!



;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: Professional applications

[kahl]

 > 
 > Running vi on neo?
 > Not recommended without a usb keyboard..
 > 
 > By the way, where can I get one ;)

I haven't tried them yet,
but initiated getting some AlphaGrips,
and think they would be useful also for that:

http://www.alphagrips.com/


Wolfram


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Re: need someone to develop this....

[Ian Darwin]

If Bob (or Alice) hands his (or her) phone to the other, then if both 
phones are shaken in the same hand, the acceleration pattern might 
provide an extremely unique yet similar signature, not unlike exchanging 
an encryption key.


So if you want to establish a trusted relationship with another Neo 
user, the two phones are shaken together until the software indicates 
that you have generated a complex enough pattern that has been 
recognized on the other.


Michael, this is (I think) brilliant!

We could call it... "the handshake" (OK, anyone who doesn't know why 
that's funny, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handshaking).


I wonder if we could do an Neo-iPhone handshake the same way? I heard 
something about Apple finally releasing an SDK for the iPhone :-) 
(Please, no follow-ups to this jibe, except off-list!).


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Re: need someone to develop this....

[Michael Shiloh]

Heikki Sørum wrote:

When were talking about different ways to use accelerometers..

Bob meet's Alice and they both want each others contact
information. First Bob and Alice shake their phones in an predetermined
password pattern to unlock the
bluetooth/zigbe/(whatever-short-range-radio). 
Then they both shake their phones in rythm to an short tune
playing on Alice's phone. The phones then pair with the 
other phone, exchange simple authkeys and Vcards.

Now Bob and Alice has authenticated each others phones and they got
each others phone number. Lucky Bob and Alice!

On an more serious note, Two such paired bluetooth devices could also
exchange an RSA/DSA encryption key to ensure private
SMS/MMS/conversations.



If Bob (or Alice) hands his (or her) phone to the other, then if both 
phones are shaken in the same hand, the acceleration pattern might 
provide an extremely unique yet similar signature, not unlike exchanging 
an encryption key.


So if you want to establish a trusted relationship with another Neo 
user, the two phones are shaken together until the software indicates 
that you have generated a complex enough pattern that has been 
recognized on the other.


Once this has been established, they can exchange one of the standard 
encryption keys.


All without pressing a single key, and without danger of exposing 
anything to other Neo or bluetooth devices within range.


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re: need someone to develop this....

[Heikki Sørum]

When were talking about different ways to use accelerometers..

Bob meet's Alice and they both want each others contact
information. First Bob and Alice shake their phones in an predetermined
password pattern to unlock the
bluetooth/zigbe/(whatever-short-range-radio). 
Then they both shake their phones in rythm to an short tune
playing on Alice's phone. The phones then pair with the 
other phone, exchange simple authkeys and Vcards.
Now Bob and Alice has authenticated each others phones and they got
each others phone number. Lucky Bob and Alice!

On an more serious note, Two such paired bluetooth devices could also
exchange an RSA/DSA encryption key to ensure private
SMS/MMS/conversations.

Heikki Soerum.





>From: flexd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: need someone to develop
>this Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:03:51 +0100
>Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
>
>
>When i get a phone i wanna try making this :D
>
>
>Michael Shiloh wrote:
>
>
> Jay Vaughan wrote:  
>>
>> On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:23 PM, Tim Shannon wrote:  
>>> Personally, I'd like to see it blink on and off, and scream when
>>> you shook, then I could show my friends my "possessed" linux
>>> phone.  
>>
>>
>> i bet you can do that in about 3 line of code once the gta02
>> arrives.  
>
> Could double as a theft alarm. If motion is detected you have a short 
> period of time in which to enter your secret code, or else it starts 
> screaming.
>
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> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  

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Re: GPS driver for GTA01 available

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Nov 29, 2007 4:58 PM, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've already tested it, and (subject to my limited ability to read raw
> NMEA) it works.  Tonight I will probably spend some more time testing
> with some sort of GUI app.

It does seem to stop working sometimes, after running for a while.
The processes (gllin and gpsd) are still running but no more NMEA data
comes out (which I check by running gpspipe -r).  Late last night
after I got pyroute working I went for a walk down the street to see
if the red dot would move, and it went a little nuts for a while (had
me traveling very fast to a point several blocks away) then stopped.
When I got back home I reconnected via ssh and did gpspipe -r and it
was not emitting any more data.  The same thing happened this morning;
I powered up the phone (but did not start pyroute), watched it get a
fix, had breakfast, came back and gpspipe -r was not emitting any more
data.

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Re: GTA02b4 in februari and Fosdem 2008

[Michael Shiloh]

Christ van Willegen wrote:

Hi,

I've gathered from the e-mails that the GTA02 will be distributed to
end users in Februari. 


OpenMoko makes no predictions of when anything will be ready. Instead, 
we report on our progress as much as possible.


Michael


I can live with that, no problem. BUT: On

Februari 23rd and 24th 2008 (see http://fosdem.be/2008/) Fosdem 2008
will be held in Brussels.

Fosdem is an excellent opportunity to show off the GTA02. About a
thousand Free and Open Software people will attend.

I plan to visit Fosdem next year, and will probably man a stand at
least part of the weekend. If I have my phone by then, it'd be great
to show it off, especially if someone ports a Jabber client to it.

So, two questions:
- How sure is it that I have my Neo in my hands on feb 22nd 2008
- Has a Jabber client been ported alredy? It need not be a flashy GUI
version, a text version would suffice.

Christ van Willegen


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Re: Professional applications

[Galevsky]

On Nov 30, 2007 4:51 PM, Emre Turkay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Running vi on neo?
> Not recommended without a usb keyboard..
>

? thus, neither e-mail, nor sms writing recommended ? I hope text
editors are welcome onboard... do you imagine the OpenMoko projects
without text ? CLick-to-launch is nice, but text -not only few words-
is a must for lots of applications...

Galevsky

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Re: Professional applications

[Emre Turkay]

Running vi on neo?
Not recommended without a usb keyboard..

By the way, where can I get one ;)

emre

On Nov 30, 2007 5:20 PM, Frans Grotepass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Well, any person that actually took the time to learn (g)Vim will have no
> trouble agreeing that it is a professional tool, so that stands stands as
> definitive!
>
>
>
>
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Re: Professional applications

[Frans Grotepass]

On Friday 30 November 2007, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote:
>
> > And you... what about your expectations as a professional tool ?
>
> All depends on definition of 'professional tool'. For me gVim is
> professional tool for example ;)

Well, any person that actually took the time to learn (g)Vim will have no 
trouble agreeing that it is a professional tool, so that stands stands as 
definitive!




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Re: Professional applications

[Galevsky]

On Nov 30, 2007 3:48 PM, Marcin Juszkiewicz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dnia piątek, 30 listopada 2007, Galevsky napisał:
>
> > I think about writing the list of professional applications that can
> > be loaded on such a hardware. IMHO, this phone would become easily
> > your best friend in meetings wether it provides the good
> > applications... I am thinking about Mind Mapping. But is the CPU
> > strong enough for such applications ? I mean... you can go very fast
> > when drawing your map I don't want to be limited by the hardware !
> > (lots of new phones are equiped with 400MHz CPU, and I have some doubt
> > about the 266MHz of the Neo.)
>
> Remember that 'mass-market' version (GTA02) use s3c2442/400MHz CPU instead
> of s3c2410/266MHz which is in GTA01.

True, I forgot it I've just read again the spec page and it
looks... awesome.

> > And you... what about your expectations as a professional tool ?
>
> All depends on definition of 'professional tool'. For me gVim is
> professional tool for example ;)

Okay, so let me say it differently...
Will you use it in your job ? Do you plan to use it as an advanced
mobile platform for business ?
I immediately think about considering the phone as a mobile database,
that synchronizes information with a server when connection is
possible (MySQL and others), I can also imagine the phone as a meeting
notebook, Mind Mapping tool, what else ?

I surely have not thought about all the possibilities


Gal'
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Professional applications

[Galevsky]

Hi all,

I think about writing the list of professional applications that can
be loaded on such a hardware. IMHO, this phone would become easily
your best friend in meetings wether it provides the good
applications... I am thinking about Mind Mapping. But is the CPU
strong enough for such applications ? I mean... you can go very fast
when drawing your map I don't want to be limited by the hardware !
(lots of new phones are equiped with 400MHz CPU, and I have some doubt
about the 266MHz of the Neo.)

And you... what about your expectations as a professional tool ?

Gal'

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Re: Professional applications

[Marcin Juszkiewicz]

Dnia piątek, 30 listopada 2007, Galevsky napisał:

> I think about writing the list of professional applications that can
> be loaded on such a hardware. IMHO, this phone would become easily
> your best friend in meetings wether it provides the good
> applications... I am thinking about Mind Mapping. But is the CPU
> strong enough for such applications ? I mean... you can go very fast
> when drawing your map I don't want to be limited by the hardware !
> (lots of new phones are equiped with 400MHz CPU, and I have some doubt
> about the 266MHz of the Neo.)

Remember that 'mass-market' version (GTA02) use s3c2442/400MHz CPU instead 
of s3c2410/266MHz which is in GTA01.

> And you... what about your expectations as a professional tool ?

All depends on definition of 'professional tool'. For me gVim is 
professional tool for example ;)

-- 
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OpenEmbedded developer/consultant

 We are the Knights who say: MOVE.L USP,A1



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Re: OpenMoko OE repository not quite ready for MokoMakefile production usage

[John Lee]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 01:05:11PM +0100, Jay Vaughan wrote:
>> I've now updated MokoMakefile to use these official OpenMoko sites.
>
>
> Great!  Do we just 'make update-makefile update all' to get rolling with 
> the new schema?
>
> ;
> --
> Jay Vaughan
>

I would do a nearly clean build :

make update-makefile
make clobber-openembedded # using the new Makefile now
rm OE.mtn stamps/OE.mtn
make setup update all

It will take a lot of time, so I would do this before I go to sleep.


- John

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Re: need someone to develop this....

[Galevsky]

VERY COOL IDEA 

It is absolutely wonderful a new sort of applications control, a kind of
all-in-one mouse gesture add-on for firefox. We can imagine a new way to
delete the e-mail/sms you read by rotating your phone on the left,  opening
a new web browser page by a quick up an down shake... a good way to
explore.

Gal'
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Re: Community Updates not working well and GTA02b4 in february

[Christ van Willegen]

Hi again,

On Nov 30, 2007 12:53 PM, Erland Lewin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Christ van Willegen wrote:
> > I've gathered from the e-mails that the GTA02 will be distributed to
> > end users in Februari.
> What e-mails are you referring to?

I found what I was looking for!

There has been a recent thread about sloshing a battery indicator if
the Neo is shaken. In that thread, Tim Boneko comments:

"I can't wait to get my Neo. When exactly is february?"

So, I thought he was more informed than I was and quoted this. Still
my mistake, but at least I found my source...

Christ
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Re: Community Updates not working well and GTA02b4 in february

[Jay Vaughan]

Have I missed a community update?



A lot of times things getting discussed, for example in #openmoko,  
which is open and publicly accessible, just not publicly *accessed*.   
That is, these mailing lists are but one of the public, open  
channels, regarding openmoko: there are others.


I find it frustrating that important information is not released  
through the "community update" process, but rather leaks out as  
rumors from other places.




I agree, there needs to be a "PR figurehead" who makes sure everyone  
knows whats going on, on all branches of the openmoko-related hot  
spots .. but alas, we don't have it.  So its safe to assume that if  
you *really* wanna know something, you *really* have to go to some  
lengths to discover it.  Lurk in #openmoko for a week and you'll see  
plenty of examples of how this case comes, and goes.


On November 24, Claes Mogren mentioned in passing in the end of a  
blog post (http://informationhunger.blogspot.com/2007/11/openmoko- 
is-growing.html) that another revision was required of the GTA02.  
This was big news to me. But I didn't know who Claes is, or how  
trustworthy the information is (no offence, Claes!). He doesn't  
seem to work at Openmoko, so it didn't seem to be first hand  
information.




I see CM in #openmoko all the time .. I know from participating in  
the chat channel that he is an active and avid member of the  
development community.


When Michael Shiloh's update came on November 26th, he didn't even  
mention that there would be a fourth hardware revision of the GTA02  
(until asked).


Well, I don't know how much difference its going to make, to know the  
hardware development details, bit for bit.  For sure, there is a lot  
of anticipation of the GTA02 hardware; but if you are a developer,  
getting a GTA01 makes a lot of sense, too.


What also makes a lot of sense is to understand that OpenMoko will  
run on plenty of other hardware than the GTA02.  So even if you're  
frustrated about the GTA02 non-progress, you can still move along  
with the OM system in terms of getting yourself 'developer  
bootstrapped' with the kit and tools provided, already, to make nice  
applications for the handheld realm.  Linux-on-handhelds is well and  
truly a factor, and a reality, and there's no reason to wait for  
hardware that isn't here yet when there is plenty of hardware around  
already, which will do the same job.


Hint: keep a beady eye on scap.linuxtogo.org .. there is more there  
than meets the eye.





This e-mail is another example (A February target date) of an  
information rumor "out there" but not communicated from FIC/OpenMoko.


Well, its stratification amongst the community that is creating this  
effect, not any tardiness or lethargy from the FIC/OpenMoko teams.   
Remember: there are very active developers working on OM-platform  
issues (both apps and system-/build-) and not all of them work for  
FIC/OM.


I think it would be good if major news, such as delays in the GTA02  
development,  were released immediately to the community through  
Michael. No need to wait two weeks between postings for major  
events! And please cover the GTA02 developments in more detail and  
in every community update!




I think it would be good for those joansing for a hardware fix to  
realize that the big lead in the OM project is first, a) nice  
hardware (which is there in the GTA01 already), and b) nice software  
(which can run on many different platforms).


If you're sick of waiting for a GTA02 to arrive, maybe you wanna  
spend some time considering whatever else OpenMoko will run on, and  
on the basis of that discovery work out whether getting a GTA01  
already, or waiting a few months for whatever else is out there with  
a target entry in the build system, is more relevant to your needs.


Me, I'm actively hacking on apps which use - and are well supported  
by - a standard set of libs provided by OM.  Its a very comfortable  
target point.  I definitely don't feel 'unsafe' targetting apps to  
use cairo, rsvg, gtk+, etc.


I would like the feeling as a community member of getting up-to- 
date and reliable information on major developments by following  
the Community and Announcements mailing lists.




I don't think anything has been held back of any significant bearing,  
personally, but I've been here for a while and I'm already enjoying  
the _developer_ stages of this whole effort very much .. maybe once  
there are some actual users, not just developers (we're all  
developers here, right?), those mailing lists will become more  
pertinent.


;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: Community Updates not working well and GTA02b4 in february

[Christ van Willegen]

Hi,

On Nov 30, 2007 12:53 PM, Erland Lewin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Christ van Willegen wrote:
> > I've gathered from the e-mails that the GTA02 will be distributed to
> > end users in Februari.
> What e-mails are you referring to?
One I am sure I saw this morning, but searching form 'februari' in my
mail (I love GMail...) turns up nothing!

So, it must have been my mistake...

Will crawl back into my shell now...

Christ
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Re: OpenMoko OE repository not quite ready for MokoMakefile production usage

[Jay Vaughan]

I've now updated MokoMakefile to use these official OpenMoko sites.



Great!  Do we just 'make update-makefile update all' to get rolling  
with the new schema?


;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Re: Community Updates not working well and GTA02b4 in february

[Erland Lewin]

Christ van Willegen wrote:

I've gathered from the e-mails that the GTA02 will be distributed to
end users in Februari.

What e-mails are you referring to?

Have I missed a community update?

I find it frustrating that important information is not released through 
the "community update" process, but rather leaks out as rumors from 
other places.


For example, one of the most important questions for the entire 
community (and *the* most important information for me) is the status of 
the GTA02 development and when it will be available.


On November 24, Claes Mogren mentioned in passing in the end of a blog 
post 
(http://informationhunger.blogspot.com/2007/11/openmoko-is-growing.html) 
that another revision was required of the GTA02. This was big news to 
me. But I didn't know who Claes is, or how trustworthy the information 
is (no offence, Claes!). He doesn't seem to work at Openmoko, so it 
didn't seem to be first hand information.


When Michael Shiloh's update came on November 26th, he didn't even 
mention that there would be a fourth hardware revision of the GTA02 
(until asked).


This e-mail is another example (A February target date) of an 
information rumor "out there" but not communicated from FIC/OpenMoko.


I think it would be good if major news, such as delays in the GTA02 
development,  were released immediately to the community through 
Michael. No need to wait two weeks between postings for major events! 
And please cover the GTA02 developments in more detail and in every 
community update!


I would like the feeling as a community member of getting up-to-date and 
reliable information on major developments by following the Community 
and Announcements mailing lists.


Sorry for whining,

Erland


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Re: OpenMoko OE repository not quite ready for MokoMakefile production usage

[Rod Whitby]

John Lee wrote:
> The oe snapshots site:
> 
> http://downloads.openmoko.org/OE/snapshots/
> 
> The monotone repository:
> 
> monotone.openmoko.org
> 
> I have done various tests on them such as run different versions of
> monotone againest the database files, build from scratch with these
> settings, etc.  There might still be subtle problems in different
> usage scenarios, so please give feedback and I'll fix them asap.

I've now updated MokoMakefile to use these official OpenMoko sites.

Now all default MokoMakefile builds will be building the "known-good"
tested revision that the OpenMoko build manager releases each week.

Just use "make update" as usual to get the latest known-good version.

For those people who wish to continue using the "bleeding-edge" versions
from the OpenEmbedded monotone server directly, you can do:

 make OM_MONOTONE_SITE=monotone.openembedded.org update

to get the very latest changes contributed by the community which have
not been tested by OpenMoko yet.  You must do this every time you
update, or else it will automatically revert to the official server.

-- Rod

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Re: need someone to develop this....

[flexd]

When i get a phone i wanna try making this :D


Michael Shiloh wrote:



Jay Vaughan wrote:


On Nov 29, 2007, at 8:23 PM, Tim Shannon wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see it blink on and off, and scream when you 
shook, then I could show my friends my "possessed" linux phone.



i bet you can do that in about 3 line of code once the gta02 arrives.


Could double as a theft alarm. If motion is detected you have a short 
period of time in which to enter your secret code, or else it starts 
screaming.


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Re: GTA02b4 in februari and Fosdem 2008

[Marcin Juszkiewicz]

Dnia piątek, 30 listopada 2007, Christ van Willegen napisał:

> So, two questions:
> - How sure is it that I have my Neo in my hands on feb 22nd 2008

> - Has a Jabber client been ported alredy? It need not be a flashy GUI
> version, a text version would suffice.

s/ported/built/ you mean? There are few of them in OE so only someone 
needs to build it and put into feeds.

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GTA02b4 in februari and Fosdem 2008

[Christ van Willegen]

Hi,

I've gathered from the e-mails that the GTA02 will be distributed to
end users in Februari. I can live with that, no problem. BUT: On
Februari 23rd and 24th 2008 (see http://fosdem.be/2008/) Fosdem 2008
will be held in Brussels.

Fosdem is an excellent opportunity to show off the GTA02. About a
thousand Free and Open Software people will attend.

I plan to visit Fosdem next year, and will probably man a stand at
least part of the weekend. If I have my phone by then, it'd be great
to show it off, especially if someone ports a Jabber client to it.

So, two questions:
- How sure is it that I have my Neo in my hands on feb 22nd 2008
- Has a Jabber client been ported alredy? It need not be a flashy GUI
version, a text version would suffice.

Christ van Willegen
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OpenMoko development on Virtual PC for Mac

[Christ van Willegen]

Hi,

I've asked around before, but didn't get an answer that worked.
Perhaps in the mean time, someone has solved this...

I've tried setting up Ubuntu on Virtual PC 7.03 for a G5 iMac. Each
time I've tried, Ubuntu install claims that it is unable to find a
correct kernel.

I've followed the following instructions:
http://www.aotk50.dsl.pipex.com/install-ubuntu-704/install-ubuntu-704.htm

Any pointers? Did anyone succeed in getting an OpenMoko development
environment under Virtual PC?

Christ van Willegen
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Re: OpenMoko OE repository not quite ready for MokoMakefile production usage

[John Lee]

Hi Rod,

The oe snapshots site:

http://downloads.openmoko.org/OE/snapshots/

The monotone repository:

monotone.openmoko.org

I have done various tests on them such as run different versions of
monotone againest the database files, build from scratch with these
settings, etc.  There might still be subtle problems in different
usage scenarios, so please give feedback and I'll fix them asap.

- John


On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 09:14:15PM +1030, Rod Whitby wrote:
> 
> There is one issue which means that MokoMakefile cannot change over to
> using the new area yet.  I have discussed this with John, but am
> reporting here so people don't continually ask me why MokoMakefile
> hasn't changed yet.
> 
> The issue is that new OpenMoko mtn database snapshot area at
>  http://downloads.openmoko.org/OE/snapshots/
> only contains a single unversioned mtn database.
> 
> MokoMakefile currently identifies the user's monotone version, and
> downloads the correctly versioned mtn database from
>  http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots/
> (look there to see the naming convention and list of 6 different mtn
> versions that are supported).  Only if it cannot match the exact version
> does it fall-back to using the unversioned snapshot.
> 
> Unless OpenMoko is going to require a specific Linux distribution and
> monotone version for building the OpenMoko distribution, I would prefer
> to wait until OpenMoko replicates this facility for their developers
> before I change the MokoMakefile, otherwise we will have *many* new
> users having problems with monotone database migrations, and negating
> the ease of setup that MokoMakefile currently provides.
> 
> I have given John details on how to do this - I'm sure Graeme or Mickey
> can get the older mtn binaries from Koen to implement it.
> 
> I've asked John to let me know as soon as there are correctly labelled
> versions in http://downloads.openmoko.org/OE/snapshots/, and I will
> immediately update MokoMakefile to use the new area when that happens.
> 
> -- Rod Whitby
> -- MokoMakefile author
> 

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