Re: GTA02 Battery Capacity (Was: Re: More about the GTA02)
On Saturday 09 February 2008, Shawn Rutledge wrote: At least the 1973-compatible Nokia batteries will probably be available for a long time (as I'm hoping the Nokia 770 batteries will be), but there is still the problem with charging them (the phone cannot do it). The rule of thumb is that no LiIon battery will last longer than 3 years or so. I think we are probably safe on that. The Nokia BL5C is used in quite a lot of different Nokia phones, including a number of very low cost models for developing countries. Those phones will get manufactured in huge numbers (perhaps 100 million), and will be around for a long time. Due to their huge numbers, and the fact that some of the owners won't have the money to upgrade for a long time, I doubt spare parts availability will be a problem. You might consider buying one of these cheap phones, both as a backup to use if a software update renders you Neo 1973 temporally unusable, and to charge the spare battery. I have a Nokia 1100, as a spare, and I use it's battery interchangeably with other devices. -- David Pottage ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Schematics, circuit diagrams
Hi hardware-hackers! Anybody interested in my story? How i completely disassembled my GTA01, put everything on a needlebed-tester, and checked the parts (including reconstructed schematics) Paperprint only, about 5 pages DIN-A2. No digital data. $79,90 Sorry for this price, i have to buy a new GTA, for obvious reasons ;-) Old one didn't do it anymore. Orders will be stacked and shipped all at same day when order volume is sufficient. coming soon: how i disassembled my GTA02... Eagle-files free your phone! ;-) jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: when we can buy GTA02 developer kit?
Thanks, I've checked that it says spring of 2008, I guess that might mean a couple of month form now. On 10/02/2008, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9 Feb 2008, at 22:36, Leo wrote: ... I understand that openmoko is developing GTA02 stage of hardware. just wondering when developer kit will be available again for us. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_When_can_I_buy_a_Neo_FreeRunner.3F Stroller. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Schematics, circuit diagrams
How about a different deal: We collect donations to get you a new phone and you make your findings public under a free license? On 2/10/08, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi hardware-hackers! Anybody interested in my story? How i completely disassembled my GTA01, put everything on a needlebed-tester, and checked the parts (including reconstructed schematics) Paperprint only, about 5 pages DIN-A2. No digital data. $79,90 Sorry for this price, i have to buy a new GTA, for obvious reasons ;-) Old one didn't do it anymore. Orders will be stacked and shipped all at same day when order volume is sufficient. coming soon: how i disassembled my GTA02... Eagle-files free your phone! ;-) jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Schematics, circuit diagrams
Sounds good, however there's been (will be ;) more expense than just one destroyed GTA01. I estimate the break-even point at 3 to 5 devices equivalent value, work not included. Donnation of (broken) devices might relax this figure a little. Am So 10. Februar 2008 schrieb Ortwin Regel: How about a different deal: We collect donations to get you a new phone and you make your findings public under a free license? On 2/10/08, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi hardware-hackers! Anybody interested in my story? How i completely disassembled my GTA01, put everything on a needlebed-tester, and checked the parts (including reconstructed schematics) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
community updates
Hi, I apologize for not providing my bi-weekly update. I've been very busy answering email and updating GSM firmware, and have not had a chance to gather information and write the update. Briefly, we continue to test revision 5 of FreeRunner, GTA02A5. There are still items remaining to test, but so far we have not found any problems which would require modifying the printed circuit board (PCB). I'm at the Southern California Linux Expo, where I've had the pleasure of meeting a number of you. Thanks especially to Ian, Ron, and Matthew for helping staff the booth. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Power management questions
Hi. I've been following openmoko for the last few months, and as the freerunner seems to be closer and closer I have some doubts/ideas regarding power management: - When the phone is on standby what happens with the screen? Does the backlight get turned off? Or does the screen get turned off completely? - Will it be possible for apps to control things like cpu speed and screen on/off? I was thinking that when listening to music the cpu can't obviously be asleep, but it would help battery life if the clock speed (and possible other things) were throttled back a little, and also that the screen could be controlled by the music app so it would turn off after a while, or at least turn off the backlight. Thanks, Ivo Anjo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: solar power
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sorry for the long e-mail, hopefully it will help folks work out possible applications of cell phones/solar. I also added it to: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:Neo1973:Alternate_Cases:Solar_power#Design_options Trickle PV charger integrated into a back case may be feasible. Chances are it would not significantly lengthen daily operations, unless it was left in the sun for extended periods of time, and the other problem is that while it sits in the sun you can't really easily use it as a phone w/o a headset. In addition, It's unclear how hot the phone might get (from absorbing the other bands IR etc.. while sitting in the sun), and whether that might be a problem for the phone electronics or the battery in some hotter climates. To fully power and charge the device, plugging in a small PV module to the USB port is an option. If you integrate the PV module with a Li-ion battery, charging circuit, and a USB hub, It could make sense for extended computing operations outdoors or places without power. For people roaming about the wilderness/bush this might be an option. If it weren't for the GPS, I might even ask the person why they would bring the phone with them, particularly if there were no cells/wifi hotspots around. For the sake of a high end usage calculation, figure 2.5A @ 5V nominal for this application (12.5 Watt nominal) depending on what peripherals you want to power (500mA @ 5V on 2 usb ports, and charging the hub battery, powering the hub itself, and 500mA @ 5V for the phone running and charging). arbitrary chosen polycrystal solar cell 100mm x 100mm: 0.47V, max current (short circuit) 2,6A (www.conrad.de, #112135-99) So we could figure 1 string of 12 cells in series to give us the 5V and 2.5A. arranging them in a 4x3 pattern for 12 total we have a size of 300mm x 400mm for powering and charging everything directly from the sun. This assumes perfect alignment of the panel with the sun and a clear sky. The panel will only be able to provide this power and charging for a normalized number of solar-hours/day (4 or 5 where I live). Minimally this panel, battery, and hub could probably fold to something around 320mm by 120mm by 38 mm, making its folded footprint still about 5 times as large as the phone in area and over twice the thickness. Taking into account the rules of thumb for the energy available (out of the original ~1kW/m^2) in various scenarios:.. the available energy is further reduced. full sun, panel square to sun: 100% full sun, panel at 45 degree angle to sun: 71% light overcast: 60-80% heavy overcast: 20-30% inside double pane window, both window module square to sun: 84% inside double pane window, both window module at 45 degree angle to sun: 64% indoor office light at desktop: 00.4% indoor light store display: 01.3% indoor light home: 0.2% If you want to charge the device by laying it or a panel down on the ground in the sun, understand that you are going to lose about 30% of the available energy just in not having it positioned perfectly. Of course, the part of the earth's surface you are on is rotating away from or towards the sun, changing the angle of the incident radiation. So even if you position the phone or panel perfectly, it won't be perfect all through the day, unless the light is already being scattered by cloudy or overcast situations. Indoors is simply a no go situation, even for trickle charging. After taking the 30% of the available energy away from our panel due to imperfect conditions, it leaves us with 825mA @ 5V. To just trickle charge the phone at the 100mA @ 5V through the usb in imperfect conditions, we can reduce the area of the cells by about a factor of 8. 12mm^2 then shrinks to 15000mm^2 or about twice the phone footprint if you assume it is a 62mm x 120mm rectangle. You would still need 12 cells in series, each with an area of 1250mm^2. 30mm 40mm might be a workable size cell, as about 6 would cover the phone, and another six could fold out.. this would definitely add some bulk. To go even further, we could interface directly with the battery in the case and provide different currents at a slightly lower voltage, meaning fewer cells in series, larger area, and we might cut out some of the in- efficiencies of the on-board charger. The fully charged neo battery has a 4.2 V open circuit voltage, and a nominal voltage of 3.7 volts. This suggests at an absolute minimum 10 cells @ 0.47V to be able to reliably charge anything (4.7V). The footprint of these polycrystalline cells is still larger than the phone footprint. If we just said, OK, we just have the non-curvy back of the phone portion as area to use, about 50mm x 80mm, and we are going to use 10 cells for 4.7V to directly charge the battery, 4000mm^2 of cell area divided by 10 gives us a 400mm^2, which points to a rectangular cell size of 8mm x 50mm. this gives us 1/25th of the original cell (100mm x 100mm) area and correspondingly
Re: Bike power (Re: solar power)
Am Mo 11. Februar 2008 schrieb Schmidt András: Today we were talking about new generation of portable personal computers (yes, that is OpenMoko :-) with friends. Our idea was to use it as cyclocomputer (That idea has already appeared on the wiki or in the list somewhere). We were wondering whether it would be possible to charge the phone using a dynamo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamo). No problem. Rectifier and a high quality step down switched regulator will easily provide the 5V/0.5A USB-power to operate/charge the NEO. You might even get off with a low drop linear regulator (78L05). A 25V/2W Zener (or similar overvoltage protection) for Vin might be a good idea. j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Bike power (Re: solar power)
On 11/02/2008, Schmidt András [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Today we were talking about new generation of portable personal computers (yes, that is OpenMoko :-) with friends. Our idea was to use it as cyclocomputer (That idea has already appeared on the wiki or in the list somewhere). We were wondering whether it would be possible to charge the phone using a dynamo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamo). The dynamo uses the energy of the woman/man who rides the bike. It would while we're going down that route, this looks a fab idea. virtually free energy* for charging stuff: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/08/knee_generator_phone_charger_pacemaker_thingy/ needs some work on the weight side, but nevertheless a good idea * all applicable laws of physics complied with ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Bike power (Re: solar power)
Today we were talking about new generation of portable personal computers (yes, that is OpenMoko :-) with friends. Our idea was to use it as cyclocomputer (That idea has already appeared on the wiki or in the list somewhere). We were wondering whether it would be possible to charge the phone using a dynamo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamo). The dynamo uses the energy of the woman/man who rides the bike. It would be very useful on long nomad bike tours where we don't have any other power source. We did not compare the output of a dynamo to the charging current of a cell-phone yet, it is just an idea. fun I have another futuristic idea :-). It has no name yet... It is a chemical power generator that generates DC using ATP from blood (the power source of the muscles). Installing this device in our body would equip us with some plugs that could be used directly for powering these devices. It is two in one: prevents you from the problem of discharged accumulators and also prevents you from getting overweighted :-). /fun Happy hacking! Wolfgang Spraul wrote: Andy (or anyone else), if the whole back of the Neo would be a solar panel, and you would put it back side up into direct sunlight, say for 5 hours, how much could that charge the battery? Could you operate the phone without a battery (and without USB) power if you were standing in sunlight? Just curious, thanks for any answers, Wolfgang ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
brainstorming/organisation software
i'm looking for some software to eventually go on my neo, but i've no idea what it would be called i often come up with ideas/problems/thoughts that i want to record, and i've been typing them into my current phone as simple notes up to now, but that isn't really satisfactory - they are all isolated from each other, despite often having common themes what i really want is something that will take my notes and at the very least be able to index them, so common words can be searched for and the results grouped together. if possible, it would have some artificial intelligence to learn about what i'm typing, and then make connections between notes that aren't obviously similar. i think this is semantic indexing? of course, all this should be syncable with my desktop, so i can further work on them with a proper keyboard/back them up so, can anyone see what i'm trying to describe? is there a name for this type of software? are there any good examples out there? is anyone here developing one for om? zulupad would be one option, but it's win only, and not really that intelligent. http://www.gersic.com/zulupad/ thanks ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Bike power (Re: solar power)
I have a sort of it on my bike. My dynamo gives 6W @ 12V, which is exactly 500mA that Neo needs for fast charging. I use a standard car charger and a four transistors-converter to direct current with it. I don't have a Neo yet, but my phone does charge. The problem is you hardly would ride more than an hour per day, and the dynamo is heated a lot, I don't think it's good for the trunk. 2008/2/11, Schmidt András [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Today we were talking about new generation of portable personal computers (yes, that is OpenMoko :-) with friends. Our idea was to use it as cyclocomputer (That idea has already appeared on the wiki or in the list somewhere). We were wondering whether it would be possible to charge the phone using a dynamo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamo). The dynamo uses the energy of the woman/man who rides the bike. It would be very useful on long nomad bike tours where we don't have any other power source. We did not compare the output of a dynamo to the charging current of a cell-phone yet, it is just an idea. fun I have another futuristic idea :-). It has no name yet... It is a chemical power generator that generates DC using ATP from blood (the power source of the muscles). Installing this device in our body would equip us with some plugs that could be used directly for powering these devices. It is two in one: prevents you from the problem of discharged accumulators and also prevents you from getting overweighted :-). /fun Happy hacking! Wolfgang Spraul wrote: Andy (or anyone else), if the whole back of the Neo would be a solar panel, and you would put it back side up into direct sunlight, say for 5 hours, how much could that charge the battery? Could you operate the phone without a battery (and without USB) power if you were standing in sunlight? Just curious, thanks for any answers, Wolfgang ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Bike power (Re: solar power)
On 11/02/2008, Denis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a sort of it on my bike. My dynamo gives 6W @ 12V, which is exactly 500mA that Neo needs for fast charging. I use a standard car charger and a four transistors-converter to direct current with it. I don't have a Neo yet, but my phone does charge. The problem is you hardly would ride more than an hour per day, and the dynamo is heated a lot, I don't think it's good for the trunk. has anyone ever implemented a regenerative braking generator for a bike? seems like a good way of using that excess energy that gets burnt off when i brake, and it won't use precious power when i'm going uphill/against the wind my bike and me weigh about 100kg, so even at 5.5m/s (20km/h), the battery would get a 1500J hit slowing me down to a stop. maybe smoothing capacitors would be needed ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Power management questions
Ivo Anjo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - When the phone is on standby what happens with the screen? Does the backlight get turned off? Or does the screen get turned off completely? Both options are available AFAIK and both will be used in different usages/according to different rules. - Will it be possible for apps to control things like cpu speed and screen on/off? Code to control cpu speed (not so simple to coordinate between the various chips on the motherboard) is working for GTA01 and is being developed for GTA02. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:CesarB/cpufreq. Apps/userspace can control this and screen on/off JW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A bit of fun - freerunner and the wisdom of crowds
The site is up. It's mostly untested. See it here: http://openmoko.hobby-site.com/ It has the features that were mentioned in the original opening email of this thread. It's not possible to edit entries at the moment, but I can add this if it's needed. I figured it doesn't need any authentication. Do you think a captcha is necessary? Feedback is of course appreciated. I can't make any promises about finding time to make improvements to it though, as I'm fairly busy with college. If I find/have time I'll gladly do it :-) Cheers, --tim On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 5:13 PM, JW [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim Kersten [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As there doesn't seem to be any takers, I'll offer to give it a shot.--tim nice one tim! JW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: brainstorming/organisation software
On Feb 10, 2008 6:42 PM, Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm looking for some software to eventually go on my neo, but i've no idea what it would be called I think mind mapping might be what you're looking for, check out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_map for software the gold standard is mindmanager www.mindjet.com but that seems to be windows/mac only. I used this for what you're describing and some note taking on a tablet when I was in school. I saw another that is java based, haven't used it but http://freemind.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page this might eventually run on the neo. anyways check these out, see if they do what you want -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: proprietary firmware
Wolfgang Spraul wrote: Next we discovered that those reflashing tools had further issues: for example, they would only allow loading cryptographically signed firmware into the chipset flash memory. I don't see why the cryptographic-signing requirement is a problem. Sure it would be nice if every peripheral was fully open-source and hackable, but that's just not realistic. If you're loading a proprietary blob anyway, who cares whether or not it has cryptographic authentication? Furthermore, we see that for upcoming chipsets, vendors are switching from storing the firmware in flash memory to loading the firmware into RAM at run time. IMHO that's a good thing as long as they allow reasonable redistribution of those firmware blobs (i.e. so that OM can include them in rootfs images). In this case the firmware, whether original or updated, has to be loaded each time the device boots, requiring that the binary-only, restrictively licensed firmware updater be included in the OpenMoko distribution. If the device is designed to load its firmware on every boot, then there's no reason that it should require a binary-only tool. It should just be part of that driver's API. I have a MythTV box with a Hauppauge PVR-350 MPEG encoder/decoder card. It has proprietary firmware that's loaded on boot, but no proprietary tools are required. I just have to put the binary blobs into /lib/firmware/ and Linux does the rest. See the ivtv-firmware.c file in the kernel for details of how it's done. He suggested we treat any chipset with proprietary firmware as a black-box, a circuit. He suggested we ignore the firmware inside. If the firmware is buggy and the vendor needs the ability to update the firmware, we instead ask the vendor to reduce the firmware to the bare minimum, so that it can be very simple and bug free, and move the rest of the logic into the GPL'ed driver running on the main CPU. Did he have any real-world examples of vendors who have been willing to implement such a request? It seems like it would be a large change on the vendor's side and would require a lot of additional development and QA resources. It might even require the hardware itself to be designed specifically for that that usage model, e.g. the Hammerhead GPS used in GTA01. Also, as others have commented, the main CPU is a finite resource. It's not surprising that this is not a concern for the GNU project (their flagship text editor was known as Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping back in the days when that was a lot of memory) but it is a concern for users/developers like me. There are downsides: We will no longer offer reflashing tools to update proprietary firmware, under any license. For critical firmware bugs, we will accept returns, or in some cases fix the bug in-house. I purchased one of the original GTA01s with a -Moko1 GSM firmware. At some point I want to have this updated to a more recent and less buggy version, but I am not willing to mail the phone back to another country to get it re-flashed (unless OM will cover the shipping + customs costs both ways). I might be willing to take the phone in to a local authorized service center, but I would prefer to do the update myself (even if it required a proprietary tool). We will push vendors to simplify the functionality of their proprietary firmware, so we can implement more of this on the main CPU as Free Software. Maybe some vendors will even open up firmware for Free Software development, that would be the ideal outcome we are working towards. I think that's OK to push as a long-term vision, but in the short term I think that the best approach is cryptographically-signed blobs that the GPL driver loads into RAM through a set of API functions. That gives us the ease of updates (just copy new blobs into the firmware directory) and gives the vendors regulatory compliance (since only signed blobs will be accepted). It also encourages the model of having a GPL'd Linux driver talk to their device through a documented API, and may help to convince them to move more of the functionality onto the GPL side in the future. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A bit of fun - freerunner and the wisdom of crowds
A scatter plot would be cool with some more sales to a given month period that could be guessed. At least additional guesses for sales in first 6 and 12 months would be interesting. Tim Kersten wrote: The site is up. It's mostly untested. See it here: http://openmoko.hobby-site.com/ It has the features that were mentioned in the original opening email of this thread. It's not possible to edit entries at the moment, but I can add this if it's needed. I figured it doesn't need any authentication. Do you think a captcha is necessary? Feedback is of course appreciated. I can't make any promises about finding time to make improvements to it though, as I'm fairly busy with college. If I find/have time I'll gladly do it :-) Cheers, --tim On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 5:13 PM, JW [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim Kersten [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As there doesn't seem to be any takers, I'll offer to give it a shot.--tim nice one tim! JW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A bit of fun - freerunner and the wisdom of crowds
can you change my guess (Flerchjj) to 3000? Tim Kersten wrote: The site is up. It's mostly untested. See it here: http://openmoko.hobby-site.com/ It has the features that were mentioned in the original opening email of this thread. It's not possible to edit entries at the moment, but I can add this if it's needed. I figured it doesn't need any authentication. Do you think a captcha is necessary? Feedback is of course appreciated. I can't make any promises about finding time to make improvements to it though, as I'm fairly busy with college. If I find/have time I'll gladly do it :-) Cheers, --tim On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 5:13 PM, JW [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim Kersten [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As there doesn't seem to be any takers, I'll offer to give it a shot.--tim nice one tim! JW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
brainstorming/organisation software
i'm looking for some software to eventually go on my neo, but i've no idea what it would be called i often come up with ideas/problems/thoughts that i want to record, and i've been typing them into my current phone as simple notes up to now, but that isn't really satisfactory - they are all isolated from each other, despite often having common themes what i really want is something that will take my notes and at the very least be able to index them, so common words can be searched for and the results grouped together. if possible, it would have some artificial intelligence to learn about what i'm typing, and then make connections between notes that aren't obviously similar. i think this is semantic indexing? Sounds like you're looking for Tomboy Notes. It's a wiki-style note application. It will run on your desktop, but I don't know if Tomboy is running on the Neo yet. of course, all this should be syncable with my desktop, so i can further work on them with a proper keyboard/back them up You can use Conduit ( http://www.conduit-project.org/ )to sync your Tomboy notes with different computers and services. However, I don't know if there is syncing capability through Conduit yet. -Charles Edward Pax ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
