Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
mmmh, i would like the extra, especially the pouch. but i also like to buy in germany because of the warranty etc. any statement from steve? Sebastian Flemming Richter Mikkelsen schrieb: On 4/26/08, Sebastian Hammerl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: only a dump question: when i buy from a reseller in germany, the reseller bought about some hundred pieces in ten packs. so will i get the 10-pack-version when i only buy one? the reseller bought only x*10-packs so he should always get the extra. It is not a dump question! This is something you should ask your reseller about. I am not even sure if the resellers get the extra stuff, since I think it was meant as a special bonus for people that make a group order. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC)
Wait a minute... /me backs up the metaphorical truck... Just _how_ accurate are these accelerometers? Are we talking the sorta half second delay with exagerated drunk movements required to operate the nintendo wii, or precise movements that can catch my cat doing the sideways wiggle in realtime before she jumps at something if I was to strap it to her? (Yes, I realise that attaching a phone to a cat is like trying to pin the tail on a live donkey, you get one chance, and then its all pain, but I digress) TTFN, David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Flemming Richter Mikkelsen Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2008 5:56 a.m. To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC) On 4/26/08, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice if we can choose between input. Sometimes it is nice to use the touchscreen as a mice, while other times I would prefer the accelerometers (e.g. if you want to use the display to something else at the same time). ... and if you use the accelerometers, you can actually move the device just like if it was a mice:) That would be very cool. Tilting is also an alternative and should be implemented before this regular mice behavor thing, since it is a lot more easy to code. -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC)
On 4/27/08, David Murrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [..] Are we talking the sorta half second delay with exagerated drunk movements required to operate the nintendo wii, or precise movements that can catch my cat doing the sideways wiggle in realtime before she jumps at something if I was to strap it to her? It _is_ very accurate, but you need to filter the signals (same issue as with the touch screen, both needs a LP filter) (Yes, I realise that attaching a phone to a cat is like trying to pin the tail on a live donkey, you get one chance, and then its all pain, but I digress) You really tried both things? I would like to see a video of when you pin the donkeys tail to a cat strapped to a phone :p -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ARMv4 rating
You all don't seem to get what Openmoko is. Openmoko is based on and built with OpenEmbedded, a buildsystem for embedded devices, source-based and strongly inspired by gentoo's portage. If Openmoko is vor armv4, armv5 or so on only depends on the settings for the image in bitbake. And yes, armv4 is pretty old, but it's also pretty common nowadays and Openmoko is no armv4 distribution - it's built for specific devices, and in the case of the neos, that's armv4. It is of course not comparable with x86 architectures and successors are of course faster, else they wouldn't be there. :) @Marco: To say Android won't run on Neo is not more wrong than to say Android will run, like you do. Android is not yet fully opensource. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't be, I'm pretty sure you are no clairvoyant, too. It *might* be available in future, it *might* run on the neo (even if also opensource is no guarantee for that), but it just isn't yet. On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 5:08 AM, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin Bernreuther wrote: the Neo 1973 (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_hardware#Processor) as well as the Neo Freerunner ( http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#Processor) have Processors based on the ARMv4 instruction Set. Apparently one consequence (stated on these pages) is, that Android, requiring ARMv5, will not run on the Neo. (also see http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/21/android-neo1973) Well, saying Android won't run on Neo maybe could be a wrong statement since when Android source code will be available, it will be possible to recompile it for other platforms (maybe after few changes, who knows...), including AMRv4. -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC)
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 09:58:45 +0200, David Murrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: /me backs up the metaphorical truck... Just _how_ accurate are these accelerometers? * accelerometers detect the maneuver of the metaphorical truck -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC)
What makes you think the Wii accellerometers are inaccurate? They feel pretty precise as far as I can tell... Ortwin On 4/27/08, David Murrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wait a minute... /me backs up the metaphorical truck... Just _how_ accurate are these accelerometers? Are we talking the sorta half second delay with exagerated drunk movements required to operate the nintendo wii, or precise movements that can catch my cat doing the sideways wiggle in realtime before she jumps at something if I was to strap it to her? (Yes, I realise that attaching a phone to a cat is like trying to pin the tail on a live donkey, you get one chance, and then its all pain, but I digress) TTFN, David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Flemming Richter Mikkelsen Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2008 5:56 a.m. To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC) On 4/26/08, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice if we can choose between input. Sometimes it is nice to use the touchscreen as a mice, while other times I would prefer the accelerometers (e.g. if you want to use the display to something else at the same time). ... and if you use the accelerometers, you can actually move the device just like if it was a mice:) That would be very cool. Tilting is also an alternative and should be implemented before this regular mice behavor thing, since it is a lot more easy to code. -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: research project topic
On Friday 25 April 2008, simarillion wrote: Hi community, I'm studying electrical engineering at Karlsruhe University in Germany and I nearly finished. Now I have to do a student research project and because I'm a big fan of the openmoko/freerunner project I want to combine this. I've got an offer from an Institude to do something like that. I must give them a topic that must contain research and the GPS. Now is the question, what research with the freerunner and it's GPS device can I do that would help the openmoko community and seems to be something that institute would support. It should not be only writing a gui or something like that. I have got to improve, develop, add or optimize something. This project should last between 3 and 6 months. I'am also trying hard to be allowed to give my research solution back to the community, as kind of code or information. How about some software to turn GPS locations (lat/long) into place descriptions that more people will understand. Lat/Long format is not very usefull for most people unless they are navigating by sea or air, as most maps are not ruled with lat/long grids. It would be much better to convert to the grids used on the maps people commonly have. In most places that will be road and atlases that may not use a national grid, but will probably use the same basemap and projection. I am thinking of giving the user their current location in a format like: Michlen Road atlas of France, 2008 Ed, Page 53, square D2, top left corner The user would tell the software which maps and atlases they own, and would then be able to convert opaque lat/long locations to a format that is more easy to find on the map they have. This could be used for their current location, the location of other people (via Stroller's SMS idea), and with the help of OpenStreetmap as a gazetteer of other places. Converting between nationally recognised grids should be simply a question of feeding in the correct parameters into a conversion formula. In principle converting to the proprietary grids used by road atlases should not be any harder once you find out what projection, scale etc the atlas uses. This should be fairly easy to calculate if you can feed in the map reference of a number of landmarks, and corelate those places with their locations on OpenStreetmap. The complication is the mult page format of atlases, and the fact on most the grid does not contine from one page to the next. (eg page one might have squares 1-6, but turn the page and they start again at 1 instead of continuing to 7). What I suggest is that you come up with a helper application that community members can use to feed in the parameters for the atlases they own. The information can then be uploaded to a central database and shared by all users. The parameter entry application would ask the user to look at the index page of their atlas, and say how many pages wide and high the overall mapped area is, how the page numbering works (eg are successive rows north or south of each other), If there are any sections of a different scale, or projection, and what grid format is used on each page. The application would then ask the page number and grid reference of a sucesson of places taken from OpenStreetmap, until it had deduced the map projection, scale etc to sufficient precisson. -- David Pottage ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
hi, i'm confused a bit, will that freerunner include Debugboard too? On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Sebastian Hammerl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mmmh, i would like the extra, especially the pouch. but i also like to buy in germany because of the warranty etc. any statement from steve? Sebastian Flemming Richter Mikkelsen schrieb: On 4/26/08, Sebastian Hammerl [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: only a dump question: when i buy from a reseller in germany, the reseller bought about some hundred pieces in ten packs. so will i get the 10-pack-version when i only buy one? the reseller bought only x*10-packs so he should always get the extra. It is not a dump question! This is something you should ask your reseller about. I am not even sure if the resellers get the extra stuff, since I think it was meant as a special bonus for people that make a group order. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- www.vedran.ba 2/204 - 2/224 - 2/255 - 2/281 - 14/24 - 17/53 - 36/4 ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC)
I think the specs on the accells are public. If you cant find on the wiki let me know. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Murrell Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 12:59 AM To: 'List for Openmoko community discussion' Subject: RE: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC) Wait a minute... /me backs up the metaphorical truck... Just _how_ accurate are these accelerometers? Are we talking the sorta half second delay with exagerated drunk movements required to operate the nintendo wii, or precise movements that can catch my cat doing the sideways wiggle in realtime before she jumps at something if I was to strap it to her? (Yes, I realise that attaching a phone to a cat is like trying to pin the tail on a live donkey, you get one chance, and then its all pain, but I digress) TTFN, David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Flemming Richter Mikkelsen Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2008 5:56 a.m. To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC) On 4/26/08, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice if we can choose between input. Sometimes it is nice to use the touchscreen as a mice, while other times I would prefer the accelerometers (e.g. if you want to use the display to something else at the same time). ... and if you use the accelerometers, you can actually move the device just like if it was a mice:) That would be very cool. Tilting is also an alternative and should be implemented before this regular mice behavor thing, since it is a lot more easy to code. -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC)
here is the spec on the accells http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/12726.pdf google accelerometer applications. http://www.analog.com/en/cList/0,2880,764%255F%255F43,00.html is a good place to start. I'll dig up more later if you like -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Flemming Richter Mikkelsen Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 1:32 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMoko Remote Controller (SoC) On 4/27/08, David Murrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [..] Are we talking the sorta half second delay with exagerated drunk movements required to operate the nintendo wii, or precise movements that can catch my cat doing the sideways wiggle in realtime before she jumps at something if I was to strap it to her? It _is_ very accurate, but you need to filter the signals (same issue as with the touch screen, both needs a LP filter) (Yes, I realise that attaching a phone to a cat is like trying to pin the tail on a live donkey, you get one chance, and then its all pain, but I digress) You really tried both things? I would like to see a video of when you pin the donkeys tail to a cat strapped to a phone :p -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
On 4/27/08, Vedran Alajbegović [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi, i'm confused a bit, will that freerunner include Debugboard too? No. If you really need one, you will have to pay extra for it. Openmoko will sell the debug boards for 99 USD -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
we are working on that, timelines and deadlines and costs. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sebastian Hammerl Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:50 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!! mmmh, i would like the extra, especially the pouch. but i also like to buy in germany because of the warranty etc. any statement from steve? Sebastian Flemming Richter Mikkelsen schrieb: On 4/26/08, Sebastian Hammerl mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: only a dump question: when i buy from a reseller in germany, the reseller bought about some hundred pieces in ten packs. so will i get the 10-pack-version when i only buy one? the reseller bought only x*10-packs so he should always get the extra. It is not a dump question! This is something you should ask your reseller about. I am not even sure if the resellers get the extra stuff, since I think it was meant as a special bonus for people that make a group order. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
In preparation for The Big Day, I have some questions about how the shipping from OpenMoko will work. How much does one package (with a single phone) weigh (approximately)? What will its dimensions be? There's been talk about a hub in Europe, has that idea been scrubbed? IF not, will it be in place in time for the first shipments? When ordering directly from OpenMoko to Europe, how much will shipping cost for a 10-pack? Would that package come from the US, China or Taiwan (just curious)? How much would shipping be for 24 10-packs (approximately 235 phones have been noted for Europe on the Community purchase wiki page)? If OpenMoko doesn't set up a hub in Europe, I wonder if it would make sense for us consumers to do our own hub-like distribution. Using prices from the Swedish postal service (which is probably not one of the cheapest in Europe), if a single phone package weighs between 500 g and 1 kg, it would cost €24 to send as an insured letter to other European countries. Not all that expensive, I think. Distribution would probably be even less expensive if we order one package to the country in Europe with the lowest postal rates (maybe combined with a low VAT), then ship phones to one person in each country in the city/region with most buyers, who then posts them domestically to each buyer in other parts of his country, and maybe hands them out to buyers in his own city. The biggest difficulty would probably be that this would involve a lot of money (over 50 kEUR), and increase the trust required for all this to work. How much we would save on the shipping would be a factor involved in whether this would be worth the trouble. Buying directly from OpenMoko would probably not provide us with a particularly good guarantee, so some European buyers might prefer to buy from European resellers. If we could get the shipping costs (which should be known by now?), we could do some calculations. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone alternative. Maybe this niche market it perfect for them? To me, FreeRunner has the smell of being an engineering driven project. Shawn has put a lot of effort in making it marketing driven but I don't see the conclusive results. (Forgive me Shawn) I do acknowledge at this point that we are NOT targeting consumers. That's ok. But if we all want this product to REALLY succeed, we have to at some point. Who knows, perhaps Shawn has a business case that involves just the niche market of hobbiests and developers such as ourselves. At one point I asked on this list how the design was derived. I received no response from the core team but did get a heresay response that a company approached FIC to make a prototype, which they did. That company then decided not to go forward, Shawn got a hold of the prototype and Openmoko was born. If that story is true, I don't see any overt marketing involved there on FIC's part. Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? I'm not saying this to throw dirt on the Openmoko project, just to point out that there is a LOT of work involved on the part of marketing. Most of it we never see and perhaps we shouldn't. Let's look at this another way.. I have spent most of my professional life in Silicon Valley... Home of Apple, Netscape, Google, and Yahoo, Between 1998 and 2001, I received invites almost weekly to interview with some new startup. Sometimes I would accept and go talk to them. In two years, I probably interviewed with 15 companies. I would always insist on talking with the Director of Engineering (or whatever his title was) prior to talking offer, etc. I would always ask the same question. Why do you want to hire a Marketing
GPS projects
Is there already any project that tries to use the accelerometers to support the gps localisation for example in buildings or tunnels ?? Greets Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
what about advanced kit http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-advanced-00-develkit.html ?? will they prepare something like this for new version? and is same devboard possible to buy somewhere else or it is also openmoko product..? On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 5:28 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we are working on that, timelines and deadlines and costs. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Sebastian Hammerl *Sent:* Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:50 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!! mmmh, i would like the extra, especially the pouch. but i also like to buy in germany because of the warranty etc. any statement from steve? Sebastian Flemming Richter Mikkelsen schrieb: On 4/26/08, Sebastian Hammerl [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: only a dump question: when i buy from a reseller in germany, the reseller bought about some hundred pieces in ten packs. so will i get the 10-pack-version when i only buy one? the reseller bought only x*10-packs so he should always get the extra. It is not a dump question! This is something you should ask your reseller about. I am not even sure if the resellers get the extra stuff, since I think it was meant as a special bonus for people that make a group order. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- www.vedran.ba 2/204 - 2/224 - 2/255 - 2/281 - 14/24 - 17/53 - 36/4 ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
Lots of questions. Let me see if I can help with some basics. We ship a 10 Pack to Fremont California. Dimensions are 435mm x 371mm x 119mm I think the weight is on the order of 3kilo. An individual box weighs 237 gm. The individual box is dimensioned thusly. 178mm x 104mm x 84mm just doing a quick check from UPS the shipment from the US for a single phone would be on the order of 70 USD For 10 phones the bulk is on the order of 160USD, which mean 16USD per customer. I picked a random EU city to just get a sense of things. EU hub will happen in due course. When the costs of hubbing in the EU benefit our end users. Steve _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erland Lewin Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:06 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe In preparation for The Big Day, I have some questions about how the shipping from OpenMoko will work. How much does one package (with a single phone) weigh (approximately)? What will its dimensions be? There's been talk about a hub in Europe, has that idea been scrubbed? IF not, will it be in place in time for the first shipments? When ordering directly from OpenMoko to Europe, how much will shipping cost for a 10-pack? Would that package come from the US, China or Taiwan (just curious)? How much would shipping be for 24 10-packs (approximately 235 phones have been noted for Europe on the Community purchase wiki page)? If OpenMoko doesn't set up a hub in Europe, I wonder if it would make sense for us consumers to do our own hub-like distribution. Using prices from the Swedish postal service (which is probably not one of the cheapest in Europe), if a single phone package weighs between 500 g and 1 kg, it would cost €24 to send as an insured letter to other European countries. Not all that expensive, I think. Distribution would probably be even less expensive if we order one package to the country in Europe with the lowest postal rates (maybe combined with a low VAT), then ship phones to one person in each country in the city/region with most buyers, who then posts them domestically to each buyer in other parts of his country, and maybe hands them out to buyers in his own city. The biggest difficulty would probably be that this would involve a lot of money (over 50 kEUR), and increase the trust required for all this to work. How much we would save on the shipping would be a factor involved in whether this would be worth the trouble. Buying directly from OpenMoko would probably not provide us with a particularly good guarantee, so some European buyers might prefer to buy from European resellers. If we could get the shipping costs (which should be known by now?), we could do some calculations. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS projects
On Sunday 27 April 2008, simarillion wrote: Is there already any project that tries to use the accelerometers to support the gps localisation for example in buildings or tunnels ?? It has been considered, but isn't practical. You should be able to find some extensive discussions of the details in the list archives. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
I'm a little confused. Are you saying to order 1 phone to the US we will have to pay $70 for shipping? That is so expensive! We need to make sure everyone is aware of this, because we must order the 10 packs. I have posted for the Indiana / Kentucky 10 pack. So if we were to order a 10 pack it would be $160 shipping right? So $16 / phone. So we would get a $30 or $40 discount on the phone and then a $54 discount on the shipping. Am I putting this together correctly? You were talking about shipping to the U.S. right? I say this because I noticed on one line you said to California and on another line I saw shipping with UPS from the US. Can you clarify so we can make sure we get our 10 people together. Thanks! On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 1:56 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lots of questions. Let me see if I can help with some basics. We ship a 10 Pack to Fremont California. Dimensions are 435mm x 371mm x 119mm I think the weight is on the order of 3kilo. An individual box weighs 237 gm. The individual box is dimensioned thusly. 178mm x 104mm x 84mm just doing a quick check from UPS the shipment from the US for a single phone would be on the order of 70 USD For 10 phones the bulk is on the order of 160USD, which mean 16USD per customer. I picked a random EU city to just get a sense of things. EU hub will happen in due course. When the costs of hubbing in the EU benefit our end users. Steve -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Erland Lewin *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:06 AM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe In preparation for The Big Day, I have some questions about how the shipping from OpenMoko will work. How much does one package (with a single phone) weigh (approximately)? What will its dimensions be? There's been talk about a hub in Europe, has that idea been scrubbed? IF not, will it be in place in time for the first shipments? When ordering directly from OpenMoko to Europe, how much will shipping cost for a 10-pack? Would that package come from the US, China or Taiwan (just curious)? How much would shipping be for 24 10-packs (approximately 235 phones have been noted for Europe on the Community purchase wiki page)? If OpenMoko doesn't set up a hub in Europe, I wonder if it would make sense for us consumers to do our own hub-like distribution. Using prices from the Swedish postal service (which is probably not one of the cheapest in Europe), if a single phone package weighs between 500 g and 1 kg, it would cost €24 to send as an insured letter to other European countries. Not all that expensive, I think. Distribution would probably be even less expensive if we order one package to the country in Europe with the lowest postal rates (maybe combined with a low VAT), then ship phones to one person in each country in the city/region with most buyers, who then posts them domestically to each buyer in other parts of his country, and maybe hands them out to buyers in his own city. The biggest difficulty would probably be that this would involve a lot of money (over 50 kEUR), and increase the trust required for all this to work. How much we would save on the shipping would be a factor involved in whether this would be worth the trouble. Buying directly from OpenMoko would probably not provide us with a particularly good guarantee, so some European buyers might prefer to buy from European resellers. If we could get the shipping costs (which should be known by now?), we could do some calculations. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Geoff Ruscoe Sigma Visions Computer Consulting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
Thanks for the quick answer, Steve. 2008/4/27 steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]: just doing a quick check from UPS the shipment from the US [to Europe] for a single phone would be on the order of 70 USD For 10 phones the bulk is on the order of 160USD, which mean 16USD per customer. Could you offer shipping by the US Postal Service? Looking at their website, I see that for instance, they have a service called 'Express Mail International' that would cost $28 for a single phone, with a delivery time in 6 days to Sweden, and a service called 'Priority Mail International' which would cost $19 for delivery in 6-10 days. The same services would be $51 for a 10-pack with delivery in 6 days, or $35-40 for delivery in 6-10 days. I'm sure many customers would prefer saving, say $50 on the shipping of a single phone, or $120 for a 10-pack even if delivery takes an extra week (even if we're all anxious to get our phones). Geoff: I was asking about shipment to Europe. I think Steve mentioned shipping to Freemont, CA because he was saying that all phones are shipped from China to Freemont directly first, and then to wherever the customer is. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS projects
Michael It's called dead reckoning and it's generally only useful with a fixed unit, eg mounted in a car. Even better if it has telemetry from the speedometer. Brad On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 11:45 AM, simarillion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there already any project that tries to use the accelerometers to support the gps localisation for example in buildings or tunnels ?? Greets Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Brad ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
Thanks so much for the clarification -- I guess I missed that! So it sounds like the $399 includes shipping to Freemont, CA? We're responsible for shipping from there? And how appropriate that the openmoko neo freerunner goes to Freemont! I am so excited about this phone I just can't stand it! Cheers to you all! On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Erland Lewin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the quick answer, Steve. 2008/4/27 steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]: just doing a quick check from UPS the shipment from the US [to Europe] for a single phone would be on the order of 70 USD For 10 phones the bulk is on the order of 160USD, which mean 16USD per customer. Could you offer shipping by the US Postal Service? Looking at their website, I see that for instance, they have a service called 'Express Mail International' that would cost $28 for a single phone, with a delivery time in 6 days to Sweden, and a service called 'Priority Mail International' which would cost $19 for delivery in 6-10 days. The same services would be $51 for a 10-pack with delivery in 6 days, or $35-40 for delivery in 6-10 days. I'm sure many customers would prefer saving, say $50 on the shipping of a single phone, or $120 for a 10-pack even if delivery takes an extra week (even if we're all anxious to get our phones). Geoff: I was asking about shipment to Europe. I think Steve mentioned shipping to Freemont, CA because he was saying that all phones are shipped from China to Freemont directly first, and then to wherever the customer is. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Geoff Ruscoe Sigma Visions Computer Consulting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS projects
Thanks for your replies Best Regards, Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Lowell, You can send me a personal mail and I will address your concerns. You are a valuable asset in the community and I value your opinion. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here and now is how to get the product that is actually built into people's hands. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lowell Higley Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:16 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone alternative. Maybe this niche market it perfect for them? To me, FreeRunner has the smell of being an engineering driven project. Shawn has put a lot of effort in making it marketing driven but I don't see the conclusive results. (Forgive me Shawn) I do acknowledge at this point that we are NOT targeting consumers. That's ok. But if we all want this product to REALLY succeed, we have to at some point. Who knows, perhaps Shawn has a business case that involves just the niche market of hobbiests and developers such as ourselves. At one point I asked on this list how the design was derived. I received no response from the core team but did get a heresay response that a company approached FIC to make a prototype, which they did. That company then decided not to go forward, Shawn got a hold of the prototype and Openmoko was born. If that story is true, I don't see any overt marketing involved there on FIC's part. Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? I'm not saying this to throw dirt on the Openmoko project, just to point out that there is a LOT of work involved on the part of marketing. Most of it we
RE: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
The debug board is separately priced _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vedran Alajbegovic Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:59 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!! what about advanced kit http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-advanced-00-develkit.html ?? will they prepare something like this for new version? and is same devboard possible to buy somewhere else or it is also openmoko product..? On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 5:28 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we are working on that, timelines and deadlines and costs. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sebastian Hammerl Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:50 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!! mmmh, i would like the extra, especially the pouch. but i also like to buy in germany because of the warranty etc. any statement from steve? Sebastian Flemming Richter Mikkelsen schrieb: On 4/26/08, Sebastian Hammerl mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: only a dump question: when i buy from a reseller in germany, the reseller bought about some hundred pieces in ten packs. so will i get the 10-pack-version when i only buy one? the reseller bought only x*10-packs so he should always get the extra. It is not a dump question! This is something you should ask your reseller about. I am not even sure if the resellers get the extra stuff, since I think it was meant as a special bonus for people that make a group order. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- www.vedran.ba 2/204 - 2/224 - 2/255 - 2/281 - 14/24 - 17/53 - 36/4 ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
I thought about it some more, and USD 16/phone for a bulk order isn't enough to make a fuss about (I assume that's insured). But I think OpenMoko would sell more phones if you could offer shipping for $19 instead of $70 (a big difference for an item costing $400) for single phones. When the phone is first released, we seem well organized for 10-pack orders, but if someone wants to buy phones later, it won't be so easy to gather up people for a 10-pack. Anyhow, comparing the Pulster price of €299 inc. VAT + €15 shipping inside EU = €315 with a 10-pack direct order price of $339=€218 + 25% swedish VAT=€55 + shipping $16=€10 = €283 (that's not including domestic shipping) means that we're paying €32 extra to buy from a European dealer which means a better guarantee, faster delivery, and less hassle with paying VAT ourselves. And there's probably some value to supporting European dealers. I'd probably go for buying from a dealer rather than ordering a 10-pack. The only disadvantage would be missing out on the 'extras', particularly the headset. Hmm... /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
I’m was speaking of US to EU. I can go Guesstimate US to US for you, via UPS or you can. Just take the dimensions and weights I gave you. Go to UPS, enter the data. Fremont CA is the shipper. and you will get a good GUESS at it. For CA to Tennessee the single phone, can be shipped for sub 20, cheapest rate, 7 or 8 days. The 10 pak would be around 40. or 4 per phone, again, cheapest rate. Since The fullifillement center does this as a profession, I will get more details, but in all seriousness guys I cannot figure out the shipping details for everyone. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Ruscoe Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 11:30 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe I'm a little confused. Are you saying to order 1 phone to the US we will have to pay $70 for shipping? That is so expensive! We need to make sure everyone is aware of this, because we must order the 10 packs. I have posted for the Indiana / Kentucky 10 pack. So if we were to order a 10 pack it would be $160 shipping right? So $16 / phone. So we would get a $30 or $40 discount on the phone and then a $54 discount on the shipping. Am I putting this together correctly? You were talking about shipping to the U.S. right? I say this because I noticed on one line you said to California and on another line I saw shipping with UPS from the US. Can you clarify so we can make sure we get our 10 people together. Thanks! On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 1:56 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lots of questions. Let me see if I can help with some basics. We ship a 10 Pack to Fremont California. Dimensions are 435mm x 371mm x 119mm I think the weight is on the order of 3kilo. An individual box weighs 237 gm. The individual box is dimensioned thusly. 178mm x 104mm x 84mm just doing a quick check from UPS the shipment from the US for a single phone would be on the order of 70 USD For 10 phones the bulk is on the order of 160USD, which mean 16USD per customer. I picked a random EU city to just get a sense of things. EU hub will happen in due course. When the costs of hubbing in the EU benefit our end users. Steve _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erland Lewin Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:06 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe In preparation for The Big Day, I have some questions about how the shipping from OpenMoko will work. How much does one package (with a single phone) weigh (approximately)? What will its dimensions be? There's been talk about a hub in Europe, has that idea been scrubbed? IF not, will it be in place in time for the first shipments? When ordering directly from OpenMoko to Europe, how much will shipping cost for a 10-pack? Would that package come from the US, China or Taiwan (just curious)? How much would shipping be for 24 10-packs (approximately 235 phones have been noted for Europe on the Community purchase wiki page)? If OpenMoko doesn't set up a hub in Europe, I wonder if it would make sense for us consumers to do our own hub-like distribution. Using prices from the Swedish postal service (which is probably not one of the cheapest in Europe), if a single phone package weighs between 500 g and 1 kg, it would cost €24 to send as an insured letter to other European countries. Not all that expensive, I think. Distribution would probably be even less expensive if we order one package to the country in Europe with the lowest postal rates (maybe combined with a low VAT), then ship phones to one person in each country in the city/region with most buyers, who then posts them domestically to each buyer in other parts of his country, and maybe hands them out to buyers in his own city. The biggest difficulty would probably be that this would involve a lot of money (over 50 kEUR), and increase the trust required for all this to work. How much we would save on the shipping would be a factor involved in whether this would be worth the trouble. Buying directly from OpenMoko would probably not provide us with a particularly good guarantee, so some European buyers might prefer to buy from European resellers. If we could get the shipping costs (which should be known by now?), we could do some calculations. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Geoff Ruscoe Sigma Visions Computer Consulting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
Thanks Erland, The Fremont hub is close to my house, So as the phones come in I'll be there for the grand arrival. As for the shipping details I believe they are contracted with UPS, but I will check on that. Last time I talked to them, they were. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Erland Lewin Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 12:06 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Cc: Harry Tsai Subject: Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe Thanks for the quick answer, Steve. 2008/4/27 steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]: just doing a quick check from UPS the shipment from the US [to Europe] for a single phone would be on the order of 70 USD For 10 phones the bulk is on the order of 160USD, which mean 16USD per customer. Could you offer shipping by the US Postal Service? Looking at their website, I see that for instance, they have a service called 'Express Mail International' that would cost $28 for a single phone, with a delivery time in 6 days to Sweden, and a service called 'Priority Mail International' which would cost $19 for delivery in 6-10 days. The same services would be $51 for a 10-pack with delivery in 6 days, or $35-40 for delivery in 6-10 days. I'm sure many customers would prefer saving, say $50 on the shipping of a single phone, or $120 for a 10-pack even if delivery takes an extra week (even if we're all anxious to get our phones). Geoff: I was asking about shipment to Europe. I think Steve mentioned shipping to Freemont, CA because he was saying that all phones are shipped from China to Freemont directly first, and then to wherever the customer is. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GPS projects
Let me point you here. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Midgley Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 12:19 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: GPS projects Michael It's called dead reckoning and it's generally only useful with a fixed unit, eg mounted in a car. Even better if it has telemetry from the speedometer. Brad On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 11:45 AM, simarillion [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there already any project that tries to use the accelerometers to support the gps localisation for example in buildings or tunnels ?? Greets Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Brad ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
no worries, thanks for being attuned to the co-incidental association between freemont and freerunner. Some day maybe I'll explain how the freerunner name came to me. Werner doesn't even know he was the inspiration. Steve _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Ruscoe Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 12:24 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe Thanks so much for the clarification -- I guess I missed that! So it sounds like the $399 includes shipping to Freemont, CA? We're responsible for shipping from there? And how appropriate that the openmoko neo freerunner goes to Freemont! I am so excited about this phone I just can't stand it! Cheers to you all! On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Erland Lewin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the quick answer, Steve. 2008/4/27 steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]: just doing a quick check from UPS the shipment from the US [to Europe] for a single phone would be on the order of 70 USD For 10 phones the bulk is on the order of 160USD, which mean 16USD per customer. Could you offer shipping by the US Postal Service? Looking at their website, I see that for instance, they have a service called 'Express Mail International' that would cost $28 for a single phone, with a delivery time in 6 days to Sweden, and a service called 'Priority Mail International' which would cost $19 for delivery in 6-10 days. The same services would be $51 for a 10-pack with delivery in 6 days, or $35-40 for delivery in 6-10 days. I'm sure many customers would prefer saving, say $50 on the shipping of a single phone, or $120 for a 10-pack even if delivery takes an extra week (even if we're all anxious to get our phones). Geoff: I was asking about shipment to Europe. I think Steve mentioned shipping to Freemont, CA because he was saying that all phones are shipped from China to Freemont directly first, and then to wherever the customer is. /Erland ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Geoff Ruscoe Sigma Visions Computer Consulting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Openmoko at EuroPython 2008?
I have been following the Openmoko project ever since the project went public, and have for some time been wanting to get more involved in experimenting with the software (and eventually the hardware), but this is my first message to any of the mailing lists. I'm a Python developer and a volunteer organiser for the EuroPython conference, held this year in Vilnius, Lithuania from 7th July until 9th July (with development sprints held afterwards from 10th July until 12th July). I was wondering whether any developers in the Openmoko community had considered submitting a talk for EuroPython 2008, particularly those using Python as a development language. Previous EuroPython conferences have featured talks describing Python on other mobile devices, but the openness of the Neo devices raises the level of interest beyond anything previously featured at EuroPython, in my opinion. Details of talk submissions and other activities at the conference can be found here: http://www.europython.org/community/CallForParticipation The EuroPython site can be found here: http://www.europython.org/ In previous years, talks showing Python running on Symbian-based devices have attracted some attention, but without seeking to disparage such work, I think it's clear that the state of the art has moved on. Certainly, I'd be very interested to see Openmoko-related presentations at EuroPython which show just how far open mobile technologies have progressed and how important (and exciting) such technologies are for both users and developers. Paul P.S. I apologise if anyone perceives this message to be overly promotional. My intention is merely to encourage people to consider EuroPython as a venue to show the exciting things going on in this community to an audience who, in my opinion, would gain a lot from seeing such things. EuroPython is a volunteer-run, non-commercial, community event. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Italy User Group
Hi, I've seen several large local groups in Europe, but not in Italy. I would like to see a large Italian local group and create a 10 pack Sales Group for the Freerunner. Anyone joining the Italian Group? We'd just need 9 more :) Regards, -- Pedro Aguilar ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Italy User Group
Pedro Aguilar wrote: I've seen several large local groups in Europe, but not in Italy. I would like to see a large Italian local group and create a 10 pack Sales Group for the Freerunner. Anyone joining the Italian Group? We'd just need 9 more :) http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Italy lots and lots ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Italy User Group
Pedro Aguilar ha scritto: Hi, I've seen several large local groups in Europe, but not in Italy. I would like to see a large Italian local group and create a 10 pack Sales Group for the Freerunner. Anyone joining the Italian Group? We'd just need 9 more :) Regards, ?? hey look at the wiki :D we are more than 2, we can actually place 2 10pack order, one in milan, and the other one somwhereelse, or both in milan (there should be someone who can phisically do this) but, welcome, just leave your name in the wiki, i think that a good moment to organize the things is when someone will say Hey, the freerunner is in production stage. Cya! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko at EuroPython 2008?
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008, Paul Boddie wrote: I was wondering whether any developers in the Openmoko community had considered submitting a talk for EuroPython 2008, particularly those using Python as a development language. Previous EuroPython conferences have Hi Paul, Could you get these people? http://www.neo1973-germany.de/ The things they are doing are novel and exciting, and are python based. They seem to be demos mostly, and my python is far too elementary to make them happen which grieves me. I really love the pyphone, simple and elegant. good luck with it, clare ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Italy User Group
Hi, Sorry, I missed that page... Has anyone started organizing a 10 pack order? May be one in Milan and another one in Veneto? Even if it's only in Milan I would still be interested :) Bye, -- Pedro Aguilar On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 00:53 +0200, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: Pedro Aguilar ha scritto: Hi, I've seen several large local groups in Europe, but not in Italy. I would like to see a large Italian local group and create a 10 pack Sales Group for the Freerunner. Anyone joining the Italian Group? We'd just need 9 more :) Regards, ?? hey look at the wiki :D we are more than 2, we can actually place 2 10pack order, one in milan, and the other one somwhereelse, or both in milan (there should be someone who can phisically do this) but, welcome, just leave your name in the wiki, i think that a good moment to organize the things is when someone will say Hey, the freerunner is in production stage. Cya! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
group sales: San Francisco Bay Area
Hello, I've started a new group sale list for the San Francisco Bay Area (California, U.S.). This area includes the Fremont hub. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#San_Francisco_Bay_Area Thanks. Ajit ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:48:53 + Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. on the freerunner scaling is free (no pun intended) so to speak. that means *IF* you use xvideo - the hardware handles yuv-rgb conversion as well as scaling. there is a hard limit on the amount of data you can transfer to the video card per second (about 7.3 m/sec) and as such will limit resolution and framerate of the source video (as resolution goes up, framerate goes down - like all things, a trade-off). remember that all time spent copying data to video memory is time that can't be spent decoding the actual video data if you copy 7.3m of video to the glamo then you use up 1 second for the copy where you have no time to do any decoding as copying is not done via dma, and even if we did do it with dma (which we tried! we really did!), would lock up the memory bus during this transfer anyway and dma actually proved much slower than using the cpu to do the copy - even for large chunks of data. less than half the speed. so it's all a tradeoff. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 2:48 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lowell, You can send me a personal mail and I will address your concerns. You are a valuable asset in the community and I value your opinion. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here and now is how to get the product that is actually built into people's hands. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Lowell Higley *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:16 AM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone alternative. Maybe this niche market it perfect for them? To me, FreeRunner has the smell of being an engineering driven project. Shawn has put a lot of effort in making it marketing driven but I don't see the conclusive results. (Forgive me Shawn) I do acknowledge at this point that we are NOT targeting consumers. That's ok. But if we all want this product to REALLY succeed, we have to at some point. Who knows, perhaps Shawn has a business case that involves just the niche market of hobbiests and developers such as ourselves. At one point I asked on this list how the design was derived. I received no response from the core team but did get a heresay response that a company approached FIC to make a prototype, which they did. That company then decided not to go forward, Shawn got a hold of the prototype and Openmoko was born. If that story is true, I don't see any overt marketing involved there on FIC's part. Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Ryan Prior wrote: A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? Perhaps you didn't read this part: I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here [meaning, on this discussion list, at this time] and now is how to get the product that is [already] built into people's hands. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. Stop looking for conspiracies - there aren't any here. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Italy User Group
I am organizing one in South Tyrol. I want just to check all the person who said they want one (more then twenty), and then look how many more we need to come to a complete set of k*10 Neos. Probably i'll also buy something like 7 or 8 neos for my own to write custome software to then resell to specific companies. As soon as I know the exact number, i'll put it in the wiki :D On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Pedro Aguilar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Sorry, I missed that page... Has anyone started organizing a 10 pack order? May be one in Milan and another one in Veneto? Even if it's only in Milan I would still be interested :) Bye, -- Pedro Aguilar On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 00:53 +0200, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano wrote: Pedro Aguilar ha scritto: Hi, I've seen several large local groups in Europe, but not in Italy. I would like to see a large Italian local group and create a 10 pack Sales Group for the Freerunner. Anyone joining the Italian Group? We'd just need 9 more :) Regards, ?? hey look at the wiki :D we are more than 2, we can actually place 2 10pack order, one in milan, and the other one somwhereelse, or both in milan (there should be someone who can phisically do this) but, welcome, just leave your name in the wiki, i think that a good moment to organize the things is when someone will say Hey, the freerunner is in production stage. Cya! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:42 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:48:53 + Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. on the freerunner scaling is free (no pun intended) so to speak. that means *IF* you use xvideo - the hardware handles yuv-rgb conversion as well as scaling. there is a hard limit on the amount of data you can transfer to the video card per second (about 7.3 m/sec) and as such will limit resolution and framerate of the source video (as resolution goes up, framerate goes down - like all things, a trade-off). remember that all time spent copying data to video memory is time that can't be spent decoding the actual video data if you copy 7.3m of video to the glamo then you use up 1 second for the copy where you have no time to do any decoding as copying is not done via dma, and even if we did do it with dma (which we tried! we really did!), would lock up the memory bus during this transfer anyway and dma actually proved much slower than using the cpu to do the copy - even for large chunks of data. less than half the speed. so it's all a tradeoff. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I'm not an expert, so maybe this question is silly, but it just popped to my mind: using mencod, couldn't you decode the video, store it in decoded form and then you have onyl to copy it? If this would be possible, you cold make some sort of video-transfere-applciation where you can set the desidred speed/size/ratio.. again, i have no idea if it's possible, just 2 thoughts from my side.. -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
The community list is for getting phones into peoples' hands? Where has the actual community discussion gone, then? If there is need for a special purpose list to get phones into peoples' hands, it would not be hard to create one. Besides, it's not hard to share mailing list bandwidth between various purposes. I simply can't buy the notion that the community mailing list is not suited to community discussion at this time. I never said anything about a conspiracy - I just thought I'd point out that it strikes me as strange to respond to somebody's call to open up a process and involve the community by asking that person to make their communications private! On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Prior wrote: A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? Perhaps you didn't read this part: I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here [meaning, on this discussion list, at this time] and now is how to get the product that is [already] built into people's hands. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. Stop looking for conspiracies - there aren't any here. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:09:51 +0200 ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I'm not an expert, so maybe this question is silly, but it just popped to my mind: using mencod, couldn't you decode the video, store it in decoded form and then you have onyl to copy it? If this would be possible, you cold make some sort of video-transfere-applciation where you can set the desidred speed/size/ratio.. again, i have no idea if it's possible, just 2 thoughts from my side.. yes. that's possible. of course your 100mb movie file becomes about 1-2gb now :) maybe more... in theory u should manage [EMAIL PROTECTED] (24fps is movie framerate in the cinemas). as u have almost no decode (though you have to read it from some IO souce). so u need an IO source that can stream 7mb/sec to you (good luck finding that!) but *IF* u did... a 2 hour movie would be about 46gb of data... good luck finding that storage too! :) in other words... not practical to have it unencoded to avoid decoding. i used a 2hr movie just as an example so you know just how much video compression gets you... it saves an AMAZING amount of space. the numbers for pure video source (that is zero quality loss original RGB data) is double that for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (92gb)... in the end beyond a hey my phone is so cool i play high-res video demos of 30 second clips (that woul still be enormous and u wouldnt be able to store more than 1 or 2 anyway - but as a demo to show off its enough), it is just not useful or practical. yes - we can go for simpler compression schmes that still require decode, but just less effort and eerything just adjusts. we spend less decode time, but require more IO bandwidth and vice-versa. once decoded u have a tradeoff of resolution vs frames per second as the pipe u have to send it down is fixed in size. you choose your favorite tradeoff, but somewhere there you will need to make one. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Utah Group buy?
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 14:54 -0600, Travis Tabbal wrote: Are there enough of us in Utah to bother? Maybe I can join the Denver group if not. :) Since there have been almost no replies, I'm guessing not, though this should probably be circulated around local LUG lists to see if extra interest can be located. -KW ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
I'am have same question about pass the customer organized,what we need do that?___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
NZ Group order
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Robin Paulson robin.paulson at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 08:28:14 CEST 2008 2008/4/26 David Murrell dmurrell at waikato.ac.nz: do any of you know about the situation on frequencies in nz? i hear telecom and vodafone use different bands, 850 and 900 respectively. is this correct? This is something I've been wondering about as well. It would be particularly nice if I could choose a different provider by switching simcards. I realise this isn't removetly possible with the current cdma phones that telecom has, but the 'next generation cell network' thing sounds like it might be compatable? yeah, they're finally ditching cdma in a few months, for gsm. technically we could switch sims to go from one network to the other, but i think we'd need the original proposed quad-band neo to do that. need some reliable evidence on which freqs the two companies use The exact figure for a few months, according to Telecom, is Four years In the meantime they're setting up a hybrid system which is not GSM but broadband CDMA using the GSM audio codec for voice calls. I'm not sure if any phones actually exist that support this standard. Orcon will shortly be opening their GSM network in New Zealand. If Vodafone isn't your cup of tea don't worry: they won't have gsm-monopoly here for very long. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIFVyBjK3MZIZPmKIRAsxkAJ4ymaWXfyG04oBhnXETYxYz4nJalgCfTj26 ngXODCEpozri3k9PrLg3HPc= =AS3V -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
well mohamed hazem i'm also left alone with no one around i guess :p, in Doha-Qatar On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Mohamed Hazem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cairo, Egypt. On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:02 PM, Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mohamed Hazem wrote: What about us the poor people with no one around interested in the FreeRunner ... How are we going to get our pouches and earphones ? Where are you? Shachar ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Group sales: Riga/Latvia
Hello. I've started group sales section for Riga/Latvia ( http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Latvia ). Please, join. Prove that I'm not alone. Cheers. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
I'm going to talk to Steve and see if there isn't some way to combine some of you into one order. Is it easier to ship electronic goods from one of your country to the other, with regards to import duty etc.? What about Jordan? Michael Flyin_bbb8 wrote: well mohamed hazem i'm also left alone with no one around i guess :p, in Doha-Qatar On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Mohamed Hazem [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cairo, Egypt. On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:02 PM, Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mohamed Hazem wrote: What about us the poor people with no one around interested in the FreeRunner ... How are we going to get our pouches and earphones ? Where are you? Shachar ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!
i'm not very sure but i think that it's no easy shipping from one of our countries to the other in the middle east.. each country is separate 'n they don't like each other :p which makes things much harder.. i think straight shipment to the countries from Taiwan or wherever would better.. but i hope i'm wrong... if anyone can clarify this that would be great.. what do you think mohamed? On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to talk to Steve and see if there isn't some way to combine some of you into one order. Is it easier to ship electronic goods from one of your country to the other, with regards to import duty etc.? What about Jordan? Michael Flyin_bbb8 wrote: well mohamed hazem i'm also left alone with no one around i guess :p, in Doha-Qatar On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Mohamed Hazem [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cairo, Egypt. On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:02 PM, Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mohamed Hazem wrote: What about us the poor people with no one around interested in the FreeRunner ... How are we going to get our pouches and earphones ? Where are you? Shachar ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Shipping questions, customer organized distribution in Europe
steve wrote: Werner doesn't even know he was the inspiration. Oh, *now* I'm curious :-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Will the Neo FreeRunner have a hold switch?
Hey all I just wonder if the Neo will have a hold switch. A switch that locks the screen. Alexander Frøyseth ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
