Re: resolution preferences??
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:02:14 -0400 Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: This question is probably just because I misunderstood something you said before, but I'll ask anyway :) If it is acceptable to use QVGA, couldn't that basically be done without any hardware changes? I believe I remember you saying the glamo does scaling, so couldn't you let SW treat the display as qvga, and just have the glamo scale it up? Or, is the question more about having qvga instead of the glamo (which leaves you back with the SDIO interface shortage)? we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. --Steve On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:42 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Would that be 320x240 (QVGA [1]) or 480x320? qvga is 320x240. wqvga... that's a whole world of resolutions (400x240, 432x240, 480x272, 480x320). :) I think the latter would be acceptable in terms of usability. OTOH it would also but it's not a drop-in replacement as its widescreen. we c ould go for 2.8 vga or 2.8 qvga. drop-in replacement. anything else mans new case/design etc. etc. also remember just getting supply of a screen is hard. you also need it at a decent physical size. i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution screen would be an ok compromise. - create extra maintenance cost for system and app themes one way or another we will need to be able to do multiple resolutions in the long-run. - narrow on-screen information for people with good eye-sight (granny won't be affected ;-) Sofar I haven't suffered from lacking graphic speed on my GTA01. It seemed that waiting for UI feedback was mainly cause by other background processes (e.g. SD-read or such) My interest are standard smartphone and geo apps and for those I'd rather go for resolution. again - it depends what you want to do. :) gta01 actually performance better in many ways graphically :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
Boo, the Glamo seems to kill everything :( On 6/6/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:04:27 -0700 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: at vga.. forget mame and games - they will be doing fullscreen updates. at vga... no chance (of any decent framerate). if you don't believe me... try it when you get one! :) at qvga though - maybe. also a lot of arcade games are for qvga res... or older ones are at least... You know, you are jokingly commenting about this ... ... but i'm fully setting mine up as a mame emulator. I think that while initially moko is positioned for the technically experienced, I believe we have a device here that can trully do something unique - become a portable general computing and gaming device. Why not? Why can't we have a moko with a fold out keyboard that can be pulled out and replaced with a game pad? This could seriously set the device apart and interest a lot of homebrew and small game shop developers because the playing field is so fair and level on this platform. I think gaming on the moko should be considered a VERY serious proposition indeed. - Robert Markus Bossert wrote: Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer back in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And gouraud shading. Mhmmm. If wine happens to run on the om? :-D ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
The difference between the VGA screen of the Neo and the QVGA screens I have are very clear to me (with the VGA being clearly superior) when kept side by side. But for most of my activities including reading long emails the QVGA resolution is enough. So unless we have the processing power to run at least 25 FPS VGA video, I would be happy with a QVGA as there is bound to be a price and performance improvement. Rakshat On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:09 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:02:14 -0400 Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: This question is probably just because I misunderstood something you said before, but I'll ask anyway :) If it is acceptable to use QVGA, couldn't that basically be done without any hardware changes? I believe I remember you saying the glamo does scaling, so couldn't you let SW treat the display as qvga, and just have the glamo scale it up? Or, is the question more about having qvga instead of the glamo (which leaves you back with the SDIO interface shortage)? we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. --Steve On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:42 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Would that be 320x240 (QVGA [1]) or 480x320? qvga is 320x240. wqvga... that's a whole world of resolutions (400x240, 432x240, 480x272, 480x320). :) I think the latter would be acceptable in terms of usability. OTOH it would also but it's not a drop-in replacement as its widescreen. we c ould go for 2.8 vga or 2.8 qvga. drop-in replacement. anything else mans new case/design etc. etc. also remember just getting supply of a screen is hard. you also need it at a decent physical size. i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution screen would be an ok compromise. - create extra maintenance cost for system and app themes one way or another we will need to be able to do multiple resolutions in the long-run. - narrow on-screen information for people with good eye-sight (granny won't be affected ;-) Sofar I haven't suffered from lacking graphic speed on my GTA01. It seemed that waiting for UI feedback was mainly cause by other background processes (e.g. SD-read or such) My interest are standard smartphone and geo apps and for those I'd rather go for resolution. again - it depends what you want to do. :) gta01 actually performance better in many ways graphically :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video
Well, it isn't that slow (on GTA01). In fact it feels really responsive, just the launcher shows some laggs. I guess it should be able to fix this by more agressive caching, as the problem seems to be, that the neo loads the images/icons pretty slow. The other problem is the starting of other apps - but I hope this also can be improved a bit. At least the new GUI is way more responsive as the old GTK one and more fancy. On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:44 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:01 +0530 Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i think and the FreeRunner should be faster. don't be so sure about that! :) Any reason why you have doubts? To a common person, the performance b/w 1973 FreeRunner should be BIG if not HUGE. (i'm only asking) i have both - and have run it on both. :) don't assume it will be faster on a gta02. unfortunate facts :( it isn't. Rahul J On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:24 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 Pietro \m0nt0\ Montorfano [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: thomasg ha scritto: Hi list, there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too. So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it behaves like and some of the next-generation apps. I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around. It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look alike. Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv(16 MB, ~3.5 min) I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500 kbps h264 with vorbis sound. Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want. P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :( Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i think and the FreeRunner should be faster. don't be so sure about that! :) I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us keep the freerunner in our hands :D Cya!! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cleared to start Mass production
steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production ( that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START. *pops the Champagne* Thanks Openmoko! Regards, -- Lucas Bonnet Bearstech - http://bearstech.com pgpBFN2mi9mNf.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
Carsten, There is any posibility to change the screen resolution without reboot? If we can do so we can dinamically change it to got the best of two worlds, a high resolution for almost statical screens to webbrowsing, doc editing, picture viewing, an a low resolution to mame, video playback(?), and anything else doesn't fit on high res. It can be done? Regards --- El vie, 6/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: viernes, 6 junio, 2008 4:36 On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:56:00 +0200 Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Well... yeah, that's kindof the reason for the initial post! I must have misunderstood previous posts as I was convinced the glamo was itself attached to the CPU's SDIO interface. You can understand where I was coming from now! :) Right. Shame the cpu doesn't have more cache so it has a better change of getting on with something else while the DMA occurs. Thanks for clearing things up. It's good to hear that the problem isn't because of any particularly bad decision on OpenMoko's part. Renews my faith a little. :-) glamo is a fairly old graphics cpu and design. frankly it was designed for qvga - at best. it CAN do vga, but that is beyond its intended use. we have pushed it much farther than smedia intended it to be - even smedia is amazed at the bus speeds we get to the glamo - they have never seen it so fast. glamo turned up primarily for 2 reasons. 1. we added wifi - and we just didn't have any other (good) interfaces (we can sit and discuss spi all u like right now - but lets hold that thought). so we needed to use up our sdio port for... wifi - but where will we stick the actual sd card? glamo came with its own sd interface - bonus, so we get that back again. 2. refresh. we run a vga screen. 640x480x70x2 - 41mb/sec ... JUST to refresh the screen. we lost 41mb/sec of memory bandwidth just to keep the screen displaying on the gta01. vga was by far pushing what the soc can do. literally that is a huge amount of the bandwidth we had left (as its reads only and we clock @ 100mhz for the bus clock on the gta02, it's be about 20% of memory bandwidth gone). the glamo removes that drain and gives u back bandwidth... but at another cost - the glamo's own bus and the extra work to write acceleration to keep as much on the glamo as possible. we definitely don't do everything we can on the glamo - but there is only so much time and development effort to go around. as such we only really knew what the glamo was like once we had it going reasonably, and by then - it's too late. glamo is in. it's not going away as there just is no alternative. so solutions could be: ditch vga, go to qvga, thus dropping mem bandwidth loss to 10mb/sec (1/4 of what it was), and now have to drive only 1/2 the pixels in software. end result would be much lower dpi, but much smoother and nicer performance. but then go all the cries of i must have vga!!! (though i wonder just how many people have good enough eyesight to really tell the difference). if we want to live in the realms of such high resolution, imho, we need to look very carefully at a high-end soc with good on-board graphics acceleration, but that would have put the freerunner on hold as a product for a looong time. so you would all still be waiting and waiting. no one would be talking of production runs right now! :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
I agree with you that the VGA screen is very important for marketing the Freerunner - other comparable smartphones dont have that feature and are certainly no where near in terms of DPI. I am also assuming that OM wont discontinue the GTA02 (Freerunner) when GTA03 comes out. So mass market customers will have the choice of the VGA screen and at a cheaper price the QVGA screeen+camera. It helps OM as they have two distinct phones available on the same platform, consumers have choice and resellers have two models at two different price points. But one question that needs to be answered is - what is the cost saving of using a QVGA screen. It has to be significant to consider this option. Rakshat On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the Openmoko project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM survives... There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer and a sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It works, has 90g, Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This makes the difference. I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag to the public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer is approx. 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do). So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass market customer doesn't care about full openness. Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a Device Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good) and ask what the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009. They are good in predictions because they look into the roadmaps of the component manufacturers. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42 - *Tracking 30+ enabling technologies *in the mobile devices market and provides analytical views on the major issues likely to drive or hinder diffusion of these technologies into the global wireless devices markets. The WDS service was first to market with a quarterly camera phone analysis and market share, and has extended that leadership position on technologies including WLAN, digital TV, CMOS and CCD cameras, Operating Systems and software, removable storage media, GPS, and other wireless connectivity technologies like Zigbee, NFC, and USB. - *Device Feature Roadmaps and evolution *across key global markets. Research in this area includes analysis of feature phone evolution with forecasts by device type; device vendor share by device type; device segmentation analysis by ASP tier, with forecasts; extended analysis of ultra-low handset diffusion drivers and forecasts; and in-depth analysis of key device types, i.e. TV enabled handsets and MP3/music enabled devices. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3736 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3899 Nikolaus Am 05.06.2008 um 14:32 schrieb rakshat hooja: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective) The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA. Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and would love to see something similar on GTA0X. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:09:55 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the Openmoko project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM survives... why would it be the end? the majority of phones in the non-japan world are qvga. it'd be no worse than most things out there. There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer and a sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It works, has 90g, Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This makes the difference. I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag to the public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer is approx. 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do). for us qvga would be give or take 3 times faster. thats a massie difference to 30%. So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass market customer doesn't care about full openness. the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then instead. Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a Device Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good) and ask what the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009. They are good in predictions because they look into the roadmaps of the component manufacturers. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42 don't need them. just go to tokyo and look what's there on sale now. what's there will be what the rest of the world gets to doing 2 years later. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is now the top of the line display. but again - you need/want the graphics back end to fill that many pixels smoothly. right now we are pushing that at best. :) but even so - in the ultra-high-tech of japan's mobile phone telco's qvga is still VERY COMMON. if we want to play the my specs are better than your specs game right now, we will lose. we do not have the sourcing power of the competing vendors. we often can't even get the better components at all, let alone for a good price. we get what we can get. sure - we have a vga screen, but really, how good is that if the rest of the device can't smoothly handle the screen? it isn't just dpi. if all you measure a device on is dpi and pixel count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi helps there, but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in fact these probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put money on that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy for over a decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract people). to make things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower resolution to do it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws grunt is not changing, cpu is not, the only 2 things that can change are screen resolution or the eyecandy has to remain toned down. so does vga buy you more sales for the average joe than a sexy bit of eyecandy at qvga? i'm leaning to qvga + eyecandy myself. Tracking 30+ enabling technologies in the mobile devices market and provides analytical views on the major issues likely to drive or hinder diffusion of these technologies into the global wireless devices markets. The WDS service was first to market with a quarterly camera phone analysis and market share, and has extended that leadership position on technologies including WLAN, digital TV, CMOS and CCD cameras, Operating Systems and software, removable storage media, GPS, and other wireless connectivity technologies like Zigbee, NFC, and USB. Device Feature Roadmaps and evolution across key global markets. Research in this area includes analysis of feature phone evolution with forecasts by device type; device vendor share by device type; device segmentation analysis by ASP tier, with forecasts; extended analysis of ultra-low handset diffusion drivers and forecasts; and in- depth analysis of key device types, i.e. TV enabled handsets and MP3/ music enabled devices. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3736 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3899 Nikolaus Am 05.06.2008 um 14:32 schrieb rakshat hooja: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 07:58:08 +0200 Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: you can just drive it at qvga... Boo, the Glamo seems to kill everything :( On 6/6/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:04:27 -0700 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: at vga.. forget mame and games - they will be doing fullscreen updates. at vga... no chance (of any decent framerate). if you don't believe me... try it when you get one! :) at qvga though - maybe. also a lot of arcade games are for qvga res... or older ones are at least... You know, you are jokingly commenting about this ... ... but i'm fully setting mine up as a mame emulator. I think that while initially moko is positioned for the technically experienced, I believe we have a device here that can trully do something unique - become a portable general computing and gaming device. Why not? Why can't we have a moko with a fold out keyboard that can be pulled out and replaced with a game pad? This could seriously set the device apart and interest a lot of homebrew and small game shop developers because the playing field is so fair and level on this platform. I think gaming on the moko should be considered a VERY serious proposition indeed. - Robert Markus Bossert wrote: Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer back in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And gouraud shading. Mhmmm. If wine happens to run on the om? :-D ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
On Friday 06 June 2008 00:34, Feydreva wrote: a stylus is a another thing to loose... I do NOT want to be Dependant on a stylus... perhaps you could tie yours to a piece of string and then attach it to the loop. I'd also recommend this for your mittens. -- Andy / ScaredyCat pgp6txpzhqU2G.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
Carsten, What app/situation you have in mind when you affirm than nobody can detect a the difference at half resolution? I have in mind a web browser a half resolution means double the scroll bars, I have in mind a pdf doc viewer, half resolution means I have to zoom in more the document to be readable, also a let you more useful surface to develop any app(more buttons, menu items) I'm wrong with all that thoughts? --- El vie, 6/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: resolution preferences?? Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: viernes, 6 junio, 2008 7:39 On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:02:14 -0400 Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: This question is probably just because I misunderstood something you said before, but I'll ask anyway :) If it is acceptable to use QVGA, couldn't that basically be done without any hardware changes? I believe I remember you saying the glamo does scaling, so couldn't you let SW treat the display as qvga, and just have the glamo scale it up? Or, is the question more about having qvga instead of the glamo (which leaves you back with the SDIO interface shortage)? we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. --Steve On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:42 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Would that be 320x240 (QVGA [1]) or 480x320? qvga is 320x240. wqvga... that's a whole world of resolutions (400x240, 432x240, 480x272, 480x320). :) I think the latter would be acceptable in terms of usability. OTOH it would also but it's not a drop-in replacement as its widescreen. we c ould go for 2.8 vga or 2.8 qvga. drop-in replacement. anything else mans new case/design etc. etc. also remember just getting supply of a screen is hard. you also need it at a decent physical size. i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution screen would be an ok compromise. - create extra maintenance cost for system and app themes one way or another we will need to be able to do multiple resolutions in the long-run. - narrow on-screen information for people with good eye-sight (granny won't be affected ;-) Sofar I haven't suffered from lacking graphic speed on my GTA01. It seemed that waiting for UI feedback was mainly cause by other background processes (e.g. SD-read or such) My interest are standard smartphone and geo apps and for those I'd rather go for resolution. again - it depends what you want to do. :) gta01 actually performance better in many ways graphically :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am 06.06.2008 um 09:45 schrieb Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman): On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:09:55 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the Openmoko project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM survives... why would it be the end? the majority of phones in the non-japan world are qvga. it'd be no worse than most things out there. Yes, the majority is. And has been brought out last year. So, is this the scale for the 2009 market? There was some shift with high end PDA displays. In approx. 2006 most QVGA models were dropped and only VGA remained. E.g. Acer n30 - n310. Another point from my discussions at LinuxTag: people want to have a successor for the Sharp Zaurus. The C750 introduced VGA in 2005 (or so). So, we don't get anyone who wanted to have a Zaurus successor! There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer and a sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It works, has 90g, Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This makes the difference. This is my core argument: I can buy a GTA03 / QVGA today. I don't have to wait for OM to develop such a reduced device. Therefore I want OM to stay with VGA because it is leading and unique... I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag to the public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer is approx. 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do). for us qvga would be give or take 3 times faster. thats a massie difference to 30%. The Acer n30 has a 266 MHz Samsung S3C2410, QVGA The Neo1973 has a S3C2410AL-26 with 266 MHz, VGA Rendering a quarter of pixels appears to be not all the tasks the processor has to do. I have not done a FPS comparison between both. So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass market customer doesn't care about full openness. the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then instead. Yes, slowness is the most critical complaint. But how should I convince anyone to buy an OM if I also have a QVGA device which feels fast (based on OMAP 730 and some Qt 2.x)? Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a Device Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good) and ask what the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009. They are good in predictions because they look into the roadmaps of the component manufacturers. http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42 don't need them. just go to tokyo and look what's there on sale now. what's there will be what the rest of the world gets to doing 2 years later. Not necessarily. The iPhone wasn't there 3 years ago. And i-mode never became popular. But I agree that you can see some technology there already built into devices. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is now the top of the line display. but again - you need/want the graphics back end to fill that many pixels smoothly. right now we are pushing that at best. :) How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels very smooth. but even so - in the ultra-high-tech of japan's mobile phone telco's qvga is still VERY COMMON. if we want to play the my specs are better than your specs game right now, we will lose. we do not have the sourcing power of the Unfortuntely, I have to play that game if I want to sell OM devices... competing vendors. we often can't even get the better components at all, let alone for a good price. we get what we can get. sure - we have a vga screen, but really, how good is that if the rest of the device can't smoothly handle the screen? it isn't just dpi. if all you measure a device on is dpi and pixel There is one strategic aspect to consider: If you keep the same display model and vendor, it saves engineering time and you can drive down cost by getting more and more volume from a single vendor. This may outweight any better price of a different vendor. count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi helps there, but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in fact these probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put money on that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy for over a decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract people). to make Yes. But this is in some conflict with providing an open platform that others can adapt to their user's needs. If it has QVGA it rules out many commercial projects where eye-candy and video speed is not that important but high information density. things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower resolution to do it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws
Re: resolution preferences??
Honestly, if the freerunner did not have VGA screen but QVGA, I would not buy it ! For me, VGA is a must have feature. As other said, there are plenty of QVGA devices. I don't want one of them because of the resolution. I have a Dell Axim X5 and I'm really sad about the QVGA resolution (in addition of the windows OS :( ) Please, please ... keep the VGA screen ! On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:39:05 +1000, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:02:14 -0400 Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: This question is probably just because I misunderstood something you said before, but I'll ask anyway :) If it is acceptable to use QVGA, couldn't that basically be done without any hardware changes? I believe I remember you saying the glamo does scaling, so couldn't you let SW treat the display as qvga, and just have the glamo scale it up? Or, is the question more about having qvga instead of the glamo (which leaves you back with the SDIO interface shortage)? we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
X certainly can do that, but AFAIK without specs you can't do hardware scaling, so using anything different than the screen resolution would be slow and/or use too much cpu thus drain the battery. On Friday 06 June 2008 09:08:41 David Samblas Martinez wrote: Carsten, There is any posibility to change the screen resolution without reboot? If we can do so we can dinamically change it to got the best of two worlds, a high resolution for almost statical screens to webbrowsing, doc editing, picture viewing, an a low resolution to mame, video playback(?), and anything else doesn't fit on high res. It can be done? Regards -- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS -- AGPS
Aaaaha, I seen it being used for all sorts of archeology and buildings construction purposes. That's what I, as an archaeologist, want D-GPS for :) With AGPS for quicker acquisition time (I'm thinking this will be particularly useful when your phone's in your pocket in suspend mode - turn it on and it starts working quicker). Marcus Bauer had previously sent me this link: http://www.u-blox.com/customersupport/docs/GPS_Compendium(GPS-X-02007).pdf Chapter 6 deals nicely with improving GPS performance. Joseph On 06/06/2008, Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flyin_bbb8: just wanted to add, Differential GPS is mainly for aircraft GPS systems to get better guidance on the ILS (Instrument Landing System). Aaaaha, I seen it being used for all sorts of archeology and buildings construction purposes. And from the info in the uBlox-paper, regarding the protocol options it doesn't seem to me like there is much chance for better precision by the way they do A-GPS. Better precision would mean info on meteorological interference (like exact amount clouds on the way to sat) at the very location of the receiver. To get this, you need... a reference receiver, so we are at D-GPS again. /j ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video
So it actually slower? Why can that be? Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:01 +0530 Rahul Joshi[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i think and the FreeRunner should be faster. don't be so sure about that! :) Any reason why you have doubts? To a common person, the performance b/w 1973 FreeRunner should be BIG if not HUGE. (i'm only asking) i have both - and have run it on both. :) don't assume it will be faster on a gta02. unfortunate facts :( it isn't. Rahul J On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:24 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 Pietro \m0nt0\ Montorfano [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: thomasg ha scritto: Hi list, there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too. So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it behaves like and some of the next-generation apps. I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around. It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look alike. Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16 MB, ~3.5 min) I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500 kbps h264 with vorbis sound. Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want. P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :( Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i think and the FreeRunner should be faster. don't be so sure about that! :) I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us keep the freerunner in our hands :D Cya!! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
From what I remember of the of the discussions of video playback on the freerunner on the list, plans are there to offer default video playback in QVGA mode in the polished software as it is more practical on the current hardware. Also I may be wrong on this but it should not be impossible for an application to change resolutions to its preset values when it is launched or even offer a resolution configuration option. Rakshat Carsten, There is any posibility to change the screen resolution without reboot? If we can do so we can dinamically change it to got the best of two worlds, a high resolution for almost statical screens to webbrowsing, doc editing, picture viewing, an a low resolution to mame, video playback(?), and anything else doesn't fit on high res. It can be done? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
Hi Carsten, I'd argue for a VGA screen for three reasons: On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:39:05 +0200, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. 1. Greater flexibility. I can use QVGA apps, I can use VGA apps, and I can use apps which are written for a fixed screen size in between. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. 2. The additional price for the better display is not such a huge problem. I don't think that a (marginally?) lower price would mean that many new customers. You even might lose potential customers who can't live with QVGA. When I get my Freerunner, I probably won't replace it with a newer phone soon. As the Freerunner is entirely open-source, it will stay compatible with new apps or services for a long time. Thus its life-time is probably longer than that of closed phones. The additional price for a better display is therefore not such a big issue, I think. With VGA the Freerunner has at least one great hardware feature that you won't find in every other smart phone. For me this is an important reason for wanting to buy one. how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. Me. 3. Having used a Sharp Zaurus for ~5 years I am absolutely convinced of VGA resolution (though the Z's screen might be bigger than Freerunner's). You can see the difference in UI crispness, when displaying photos, when drawing. Due to the higher resolution, anti-aliasing is less important. Some of the applications I use most often (e.g. TextMaker (word processing), KO/Pi (calendar)) would suffer greatly if you had to scale the UI down to QVGA. So, please keep VGA - and offer smooth, fast switching to QVGA. Cheers, Raphael -- Dipl.-Medieninf. Raphael Wimmer Research Assistant LFE Media Informatics E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Munich Skype: real_raphman Amalienstr. 17 / Room 206 WWW: http://www.medien.ifi.lmu.de 80333 Munich Tel:+49 (89) 2180-4659 GermanyFax:+49 (89) 2180-99-4659 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
On Fri, June 6, 2008 3:39 pm, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. Well, it's hard to know without having an actual device to look at, but I'll try My notebook has a 15 inch 1920x1200 monitor which comes to 147dpi. The Freerunner is 285dpi, the pixels are very close to half the width/ height of my pixels. So at first I thought wow, that's tiny. I don't think I need them *that* small - and I have better than average eye sight. Then I resized my browser to 640x480 and found I could read it quite well, though lots of web pages don't quite fit. I took a screenshot of the window and displayed it at 50% in the GIMP. So presumably that is how the image could look on the Freerunner. If I hold this image at the same distance from my eye that I usually use a notebook (say 55cm) the text looks like it would be too small to comfortably read, though the reduction of resolution has made it blurry and I cannot be sure. If I hold it at the distance that I would typically read a book, which is closer to 35cm, the text is still a bit small, but I think I would be quite happy reading it - except that the low resolution has made it quite blurry. If it were still 640x480, but the same size I think I could read it quite happily. So my conclusion is that for reading textual content, the higher resolution probably is worth it for me. I doubt it would be of much value for photo for videos. I just tried watching a video at [EMAIL PROTECTED], and it was quite acceptable for the physical size. The question then becomes - how often will I be reading pages of text on my Freerunner. I really don't know. However maps are very similar to textual content - sharp contrast and the potential for lots of information in a small space. I tried a similar experiment comparing a google-maps image 320x240*147dpi and simulated [EMAIL PROTECTED], and the 320x240 felt very constrained - not enough information on the display. The 640x480 felt more comfortable and - I think - would have been readable if I had the real resolution. Maybe you could ask again we have all had our Freerunners for a couple of months. What was the story with 320x240x25fps video again? Is it possible with the available memory bandwidth? NeilBrown ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
But we are able to do to hardware scaling, isn't it? afaik in the long video play resolution thread this were mentioned (maybe there are differents scale concepts) --- El vie, 6/6/08, Stefano Cavallari [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Stefano Cavallari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo Para: community@lists.openmoko.org Fecha: viernes, 6 junio, 2008 10:53 X certainly can do that, but AFAIK without specs you can't do hardware scaling, so using anything different than the screen resolution would be slow and/or use too much cpu thus drain the battery. On Friday 06 June 2008 09:08:41 David Samblas Martinez wrote: Carsten, There is any posibility to change the screen resolution without reboot? If we can do so we can dinamically change it to got the best of two worlds, a high resolution for almost statical screens to webbrowsing, doc editing, picture viewing, an a low resolution to mame, video playback(?), and anything else doesn't fit on high res. It can be done? Regards --___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 2:07 PM, NeoSleg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honestly, if the freerunner did not have VGA screen but QVGA, I would not buy it ! But the freerunner does have a VGA screen and as per information in Steve's email mass production is about to start/ has started. The debate is for the GTA03 device that, I believe, will be sold along with the freerunner and not as its replacement/ next generation (thats GTA04 - where I wish for WVGA if not SVGA!) People who want VGA can buy the Freerunner (GTA02) and who wish to pay less can get GTA03 with QVGA with faster performance. This is good as it will provide more choices on the OM phone stack and lead to the creation of a QVGA gui (along with a VGA gui) that will make it easier for OM to be ported to a number of existing devices also. Remember Openmoko is not just about having a cool device to show off to peers but also about opening up the mobile computing world and more the OM phone stack is used the better. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
Honestly, if the freerunner did not have VGA screen but QVGA, I would not buy it ! For me, VGA is a must have feature. As other said, there are plenty of QVGA devices. I don't want one of them because of the resolution. I have a Dell Axim X5 and I'm really sad about the QVGA resolution (in addition of the windows OS :( ) Please, please ... keep the VGA screen ! Yeah, same here. Besides, OM was really advertising the DPI for a long time back in 2006/2007 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cleared to start Mass production
YAY! Finally, we are arriving... -Marcel Am Donnerstag 05 Juni 2008 17:12:42 schrieb steve: The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production ( that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Wollersheim Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess). Does anyone else have a better guess? You cannot book an order at present. I reckon they will be able to ship to Pakistan. Cheers Dennis Masoom Alam wrote: Hi every one, I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on the mailing list :)). Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking this question. Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me in advance now? Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any recommendation in this regard? Regards, MM Alam -- -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
All of the geeks that I have shown my GTA01 to have been in awe of it's high-res VGA screen. Whatever direction OpenMoko wants to go in, I'm sure geeks will always be a large part of their target demographic. To touch on Gabriel's comment, WVGA would be the same resolution as the Nokia N800 series but in a more compact screen. With that resolution perhaps the GTA03 would start tapping into other unexpected markets - for example some of the people who like the internet tablets and also eee-PC type devices. It would contribute to an incredible portable web-browsing experience (which is what those other devices are designed for, and why they sell) but in the GTA03 it would be built into your phone (which makes it the most portable of all). Justyn. 2008/6/5 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED]: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective) The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA. Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and would love to see something similar on GTA0X. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Friday 06 June 2008 09:45:29 Carsten Haitzler wrote: the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then instead. I'd like to wave the little please can we have a decent SoC flag again. Yes, the CPU is too slow to drive VGA... but don't fix the problem by putting a lower-spec LCD in, fix the _real_ issue - The CPU is too slooow! I assume you're concidering a new LCD for the GTA03? Fine, but if you're going for a revamp on the GTA04, stick the VGA display back in and give us (well, sell us) a SoC with some real graphics grunt. And I'm not talking about the Samsung s3c6400 - it is still way too underpowered. Maybe s3c6410 which seems to have a programmable 3D pipeline Go on, you know you want to... Pixel shaders... Compiz on a phone... windows which cast real, pixel-perfect soft shadows... Think what we could do with it! An entirely clutter (http://www.clutter-project.org/blog/) based UI! It's _worth_ a binary blob driver. Who knows, maybe samsung will even let you write an open source driver? (Don't think the s3c6410's 3D core is a PowerVR, seems to be something different?) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
I forgot to mention that not only is WVGA (800 x 480) the resolution of Nokia's N800 series internet tablets but also the Asus Eee PC (original), which is a tiny laptop for web browsing and has surprised the world by selling so well. Drool over this engadget post from 2006 about a 2.9 inch WVGA display: http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/hitachi-does-800-x-480-display-for-phones/ 2008/6/6 Justyn Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: All of the geeks that I have shown my GTA01 to have been in awe of it's high-res VGA screen. Whatever direction OpenMoko wants to go in, I'm sure geeks will always be a large part of their target demographic. To touch on Gabriel's comment, WVGA would be the same resolution as the Nokia N800 series but in a more compact screen. With that resolution perhaps the GTA03 would start tapping into other unexpected markets - for example some of the people who like the internet tablets and also eee-PC type devices. It would contribute to an incredible portable web-browsing experience (which is what those other devices are designed for, and why they sell) but in the GTA03 it would be built into your phone (which makes it the most portable of all). Justyn. 2008/6/5 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED]: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective) The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA. Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and would love to see something similar on GTA0X. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cleared to start Mass production
2008/6/5 steffen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START. hmm...so where is GNU/Hurd? ... :D Ask RMS, but it appears that DNF has been GNU/Hurd to market: http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/05/2155230 Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Ublox AGPS On-line impelementation
Hi all, According to previous mail in community list, there is a perl version of AGPS on-line implementation. But it requires to install many packages. The following is the C implementation. http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/matt_hsu/agps-online/ Here is a brief script to run this application: = #!/bin/sh echo 1 /sys/bus/platform/drivers/neo1973-pm-gps/neo1973-pm-gps.0/pwron ./agps-onlinec -c full -u youraccount -k yourpasswd -la 25.073270 -lo 121.574805 -p 99.00 cat /dev/ttySAC1 Please make sure you have either WiFi connection or GPRS connection before running this. The TTFF should be about 15 seconds after applying this program, if you are in a good environment such as open sky. Cheers, Matt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debug Board v3 (GTA02) now available
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Christoph Pulster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello community, may I add that I have the debug board now in my shop: http://www.pulster.de/engl/ index.html?d__omdebug__Openmoko_Debug_Board_Version_v3747.htm It's version 3 belonging to GTA02 Freerunner... EUR 149.00 Are you sure that that's not misprint? (Just a bit bigger extra charge when comparing with Freerunner, afaicu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cleared to start Mass production
steffen wrote: The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START. hmm...so where is GNU/Hurd? ... :D As far as I know GNU/Hurd will be released as a bundle together with Duke Nukem Forever. ;) @steve: awesome news! adios amigos, André signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Ublox AGPS On-line impelementation
Matt, that's great, thanks, will compile now. I've just emailed u-blox support requesting a username and password; hopefully I'll be able to test this soon enough (just need to find a reasonable way of getting GPRS to work now...) Cheers, Joseph On 06/06/2008, matt_hsu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, According to previous mail in community list, there is a perl version of AGPS on-line implementation. But it requires to install many packages. The following is the C implementation. http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/matt_hsu/agps-online/ Here is a brief script to run this application: = #!/bin/sh echo 1 /sys/bus/platform/drivers/neo1973-pm-gps/neo1973-pm-gps.0/pwron ./agps-onlinec -c full -u youraccount -k yourpasswd -la 25.073270 -lo 121.574805 -p 99.00 cat /dev/ttySAC1 Please make sure you have either WiFi connection or GPRS connection before running this. The TTFF should be about 15 seconds after applying this program, if you are in a good environment such as open sky. Cheers, Matt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS -- AGPS
Joseph That's what I, as an archaeologist, want D-GPS for :) gpsd has a mode where it listens to both the gps and an online dgps source and produces corrected output. See the manpage for gpsd. I think you have to have the unit online continuously. -- Brad ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
On Thursday 05 June 2008 16:38:46 Ron K. Jeffries wrote: Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed to hold a stylus? +1 Just having one does not mean OM has to use it. Frankly, I'm not really convinced by the whole finger keyboard stuff. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Friday 06 June 2008 13:11:32 Justyn Butler wrote: To touch on Gabriel's comment, WVGA would be the same resolution as the Nokia N800 series but in a more compact screen. With that resolution perhaps the GTA03 would start tapping into other unexpected markets - for example some of the people who like the internet tablets and also eee-PC type devices. It would contribute to an incredible portable web-browsing experience (which is what those other devices are designed for, and why they sell) but in the GTA03 it would be built into your phone (which makes it the most portable of all). Amen to that. And while we're at it, lets not forget QWERTY :P signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
I still think that the Cowon iAudio D2 has the best solution: guitar-pick-like stylus, attached by a short cord at a loop in the housing. On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 06 June 2008 00:34, Feydreva wrote: a stylus is a another thing to loose... I do NOT want to be Dependant on a stylus... perhaps you could tie yours to a piece of string and then attach it to the loop. I'd also recommend this for your mittens. -- Andy / ScaredyCat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: USA, East coast groupe order
I register myself on the NY list, and we will see what happens when we get the final count and the moko is out :) On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:45 PM, Gilbert Hartmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds like a good plan to me Paul Buede wrote: Count me in. Feydreva wrote: It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in New york. New york group is already 5. Why not all go in the NY group then ? I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the phone in VA. Philippe ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debug Board v3 (GTA02) now available
Hi, I don't think that is an error: also if Openmoko sell it at 99$, it must to arrive in europe, than you must to add VAT (20% ?) that you have to add environmental taxes, and to add warranty (1 year at least). So is very possible it cost so. And in every case it cost less that all the debug board I never saw :) Ilja O. wrote: On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Christoph Pulster [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello community, may I add that I have the debug board now in my shop: http://www.pulster.de/engl/ index.html?d__omdebug__Openmoko_Debug_Board_Version_v3747.htm It's version 3 belonging to GTA02 Freerunner... EUR 149.00 Are you sure that that's not misprint? (Just a bit bigger extra charge when comparing with Freerunner, afaicu) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cleared to start Mass production
lol @steve : thx for the good news André Gaul schrieb: steffen wrote: The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START. hmm...so where is GNU/Hurd? ... :D As far as I know GNU/Hurd will be released as a bundle together with Duke Nukem Forever. ;) @steve: awesome news! adios amigos, André ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
On 6/6/08, NeilBrown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, June 6, 2008 3:39 pm, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. Well, it's hard to know without having an actual device to look at, but I'll try My notebook has a 15 inch 1920x1200 monitor which comes to 147dpi. The Freerunner is 285dpi, the pixels are very close to half the width/ height of my pixels. So at first I thought wow, that's tiny. I don't think I need them *that* small - and I have better than average eye sight. Then I resized my browser to 640x480 and found I could read it quite well, though lots of web pages don't quite fit. I took a screenshot of the window and displayed it at 50% in the GIMP. So presumably that is how the image could look on the Freerunner. No. Now you need to zoom 2x. Then compare the original with this. They should occupy the same amount of space on your screen, but the QVGA should only have half the pixels. -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Debug Board v3 (GTA02) now available
On 6/6/08, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ilja O. wrote: On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Christoph Pulster [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello community, may I add that I have the debug board now in my shop: http://www.pulster.de/engl/ index.html?d__omdebug__Openmoko_Debug_Board_Version_v3747.htm It's version 3 belonging to GTA02 Freerunner... EUR 149.00 Are you sure that that's not misprint? (Just a bit bigger extra charge when comparing with Freerunner, afaicu) Hi, I don't think that is an error: also if Openmoko sell it at 99$, it must to arrive in europe, than you must to add VAT (20% ?) that you have to add environmental taxes, and to add warranty (1 year at least). So is very possible it cost so. And in every case it cost less that all the debug board I never saw :) Do not confuse USD with EUR. $99 == €61 €149 == $238 -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 07:08:41 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Carsten, There is any posibility to change the screen resolution without reboot? If we can do so we can dinamically change it to got the best of two worlds, a high resolution for almost statical screens to webbrowsing, doc editing, picture viewing, an a low resolution to mame, video playback(?), and anything else doesn't fit on high res. It can be done? you can change screen res any time. assuming the drivers don't get it wrong, it will work just fine even runtime while x11 is up (xrandr will manage it). your transition from qvga to vga won't be smooth - you'll see flicker and things move/redraw/adjust, and right now xglamo seems to be doing a wonderful job of not switching properly, but as such it is perfectly possible to do it runtime without even finishing your x session. note - qvga really does look blocky on the 2.8 vga Regards --- El vie, 6/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: viernes, 6 junio, 2008 4:36 On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:56:00 +0200 Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Well... yeah, that's kindof the reason for the initial post! I must have misunderstood previous posts as I was convinced the glamo was itself attached to the CPU's SDIO interface. You can understand where I was coming from now! :) Right. Shame the cpu doesn't have more cache so it has a better change of getting on with something else while the DMA occurs. Thanks for clearing things up. It's good to hear that the problem isn't because of any particularly bad decision on OpenMoko's part. Renews my faith a little. :-) glamo is a fairly old graphics cpu and design. frankly it was designed for qvga - at best. it CAN do vga, but that is beyond its intended use. we have pushed it much farther than smedia intended it to be - even smedia is amazed at the bus speeds we get to the glamo - they have never seen it so fast. glamo turned up primarily for 2 reasons. 1. we added wifi - and we just didn't have any other (good) interfaces (we can sit and discuss spi all u like right now - but lets hold that thought). so we needed to use up our sdio port for... wifi - but where will we stick the actual sd card? glamo came with its own sd interface - bonus, so we get that back again. 2. refresh. we run a vga screen. 640x480x70x2 - 41mb/sec ... JUST to refresh the screen. we lost 41mb/sec of memory bandwidth just to keep the screen displaying on the gta01. vga was by far pushing what the soc can do. literally that is a huge amount of the bandwidth we had left (as its reads only and we clock @ 100mhz for the bus clock on the gta02, it's be about 20% of memory bandwidth gone). the glamo removes that drain and gives u back bandwidth... but at another cost - the glamo's own bus and the extra work to write acceleration to keep as much on the glamo as possible. we definitely don't do everything we can on the glamo - but there is only so much time and development effort to go around. as such we only really knew what the glamo was like once we had it going reasonably, and by then - it's too late. glamo is in. it's not going away as there just is no alternative. so solutions could be: ditch vga, go to qvga, thus dropping mem bandwidth loss to 10mb/sec (1/4 of what it was), and now have to drive only 1/2 the pixels in software. end result would be much lower dpi, but much smoother and nicer performance. but then go all the cries of i must have vga!!! (though i wonder just how many people have good enough eyesight to really tell the difference). if we want to live in the realms of such high resolution, imho, we need to look very carefully at a high-end soc with good on-board graphics acceleration, but that would have put the freerunner on hold as a product for a looong time. so you would all still be waiting and waiting. no one would be talking of production runs right now! :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list
Re: resolution preferences??
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 07:54:34 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Carsten, What app/situation you have in mind when you affirm than nobody can detect a the difference at half resolution? I have in mind a web browser a half resolution means double the scroll bars, I have in mind a pdf doc viewer, half resolution means I have to zoom in more the document to be readable, also a let you more useful surface to develop any app(more buttons, menu items) I'm wrong with all that thoughts? yes. :) wrong. :) you assume that you have to render 1:1, rendering a web page or pdf - you can render to an intermediate buffer than it higher res THEN scale down to screen res (be it vga, qvga or whatever it is) much like you scale any image the difference would be how sharp or blurry it is. and the vga screen will look blurry to anyone without excellent eyesight anyway (or someone with their eye about 3cm from the screen)... thus my point :) --- El vie, 6/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: resolution preferences?? Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: viernes, 6 junio, 2008 7:39 On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:02:14 -0400 Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: This question is probably just because I misunderstood something you said before, but I'll ask anyway :) If it is acceptable to use QVGA, couldn't that basically be done without any hardware changes? I believe I remember you saying the glamo does scaling, so couldn't you let SW treat the display as qvga, and just have the glamo scale it up? Or, is the question more about having qvga instead of the glamo (which leaves you back with the SDIO interface shortage)? we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. --Steve On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:42 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Would that be 320x240 (QVGA [1]) or 480x320? qvga is 320x240. wqvga... that's a whole world of resolutions (400x240, 432x240, 480x272, 480x320). :) I think the latter would be acceptable in terms of usability. OTOH it would also but it's not a drop-in replacement as its widescreen. we c ould go for 2.8 vga or 2.8 qvga. drop-in replacement. anything else mans new case/design etc. etc. also remember just getting supply of a screen is hard. you also need it at a decent physical size. i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution screen would be an ok compromise. - create extra maintenance cost for system and app themes one way or another we will need to be able to do multiple resolutions in the long-run. - narrow on-screen information for people with good eye-sight (granny won't be affected ;-) Sofar I haven't suffered from lacking graphic speed on my GTA01. It seemed that waiting for UI feedback was mainly cause by other background processes (e.g. SD-read or such) My interest are standard smartphone and geo apps and for those I'd rather go for resolution. again - it depends what you want to do. :) gta01 actually performance better in many ways graphically :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko
Re: resolution preferences??
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:17:40 +0530 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 2:07 PM, NeoSleg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Honestly, if the freerunner did not have VGA screen but QVGA, I would not buy it ! But the freerunner does have a VGA screen and as per information in Steve's email mass production is about to start/ has started. no one ever said the freerunner would have anything but vga. i'm asking in general as we will make decisions of vga vs qvga vs god knows what other resolutions, screen sizes etc. over time in future devices. i want to know what people think! :) The debate is for the GTA03 device that, I believe, will be sold along with the freerunner and not as its replacement/ next generation (thats GTA04 - where I wish for WVGA if not SVGA!) yup! much more like it - maybe not even gta03, maybe gta04/5/6 etc. but i want to know. convince me vga is incredibly more useful than qvga. convince me you all have amazing eyesight! :) i am doing this because i am trying to listen to the community and if given a choice - choose the right way based on what you guys think, but PLEASE, be practical, and honest. be honest with yourselves. this is not a my screen is higher dpi than your screen competition. it's about making a nice and usable device you want. if you ask for vga, but you really can't see the difference between qvga and vga, you're not being honest. you're just playing the spec numbers game. People who want VGA can buy the Freerunner (GTA02) and who wish to pay less can get GTA03 with QVGA with faster performance. This is good as it will provide more choices on the OM phone stack and lead to the creation of a QVGA gui (along with a VGA gui) that will make it easier for OM to be ported to a number of existing devices also. Remember Openmoko is not just about having a cool device to show off to peers but also about opening up the mobile computing world and more the OM phone stack is used the better. yup. and one day we may have a miniature phone that is the size of a coin and have a qvga screen on it. we will need to work with it, so a qvga phone at any time is not a bad idea. but as i said - i'm just looking to see what people think. and why. i'm very interested in why. why is a vga screen so important? can you REALLY see all the pixels? can you REALLY read an 8-point font on that screen at that size? (be honest!). from what i notice of people such a font is just a blurry mess to them and they are always increasing font sizes to be able to read anything, thus why spend so many pixels on it? but if you really can see that well - it does make sense. at least if u are always looking at static content. i content moves/animates, it's useless again. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:16:15 +1000 (EST) NeilBrown [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Fri, June 6, 2008 3:39 pm, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. Well, it's hard to know without having an actual device to look at, but I'll try My notebook has a 15 inch 1920x1200 monitor which comes to 147dpi. The Freerunner is 285dpi, the pixels are very close to half the width/ height of my pixels. So at first I thought wow, that's tiny. I don't think I need them *that* small - and I have better than average eye sight. Then I resized my browser to 640x480 and found I could read it quite well, though lots of web pages don't quite fit. I took a screenshot of the window and displayed it at 50% in the GIMP. So presumably that is how the image could look on the Freerunner. If I hold this image at the same distance from my eye that I usually use a notebook (say 55cm) the text looks like it would be too small to comfortably read, though the reduction of resolution has made it blurry and I cannot be sure. If I hold it at the distance that I would typically read a book, which is closer to 35cm, the text is still a bit small, but I think I would be quite happy reading it - except that the low resolution has made it quite blurry. If it were still 640x480, but the same size I think I could read it quite happily. So my conclusion is that for reading textual content, the higher resolution probably is worth it for me. I doubt it would be of much value for photo for videos. I just tried watching a video at [EMAIL PROTECTED], and it was quite acceptable for the physical size. The question then becomes - how often will I be reading pages of text on my Freerunner. I really don't know. However maps are very similar to textual content - sharp contrast and the potential for lots of information in a small space. I tried a similar experiment comparing a google-maps image 320x240*147dpi and simulated [EMAIL PROTECTED], and the 320x240 felt very constrained - not enough information on the display. The 640x480 felt more comfortable and - I think - would have been readable if I had the real resolution. cool. someone actually has done a did some experiments on themselves! well done! this is just the kind of stuff i was hoping for. this is one of the best responses. it's subjective, but using objective measurements as best possible with the equipment you have. good! so yes - the blurry scaled down in gimp @ qvga would be a qvga screen on a freerunner. vga would be sharper. then again - until u have a 285dpi screen it's hard to really compare! :) but this is the best you can do! nice! :) opinion noted for the future! :) Maybe you could ask again we have all had our Freerunners for a couple of months. What was the story with 320x240x25fps video again? Is it possible with the available memory bandwidth? argh! :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:17:46 +0100 Justyn Butler justynbutler [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I forgot to mention that not only is WVGA (800 x 480) the resolution of Nokia's N800 series internet tablets but also the Asus Eee PC (original), which is a tiny laptop for web browsing and has surprised the world by selling so well. Drool over this engadget post from 2006 about a 2.9 inch WVGA display: http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/hitachi-does-800-x-480-display-for-phones/ go to tokyo and play with the phones that already are on the shelf and use it... i did today... :) 2008/6/6 Justyn Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: All of the geeks that I have shown my GTA01 to have been in awe of it's high-res VGA screen. Whatever direction OpenMoko wants to go in, I'm sure geeks will always be a large part of their target demographic. To touch on Gabriel's comment, WVGA would be the same resolution as the Nokia N800 series but in a more compact screen. With that resolution perhaps the GTA03 would start tapping into other unexpected markets - for example some of the people who like the internet tablets and also eee-PC type devices. It would contribute to an incredible portable web-browsing experience (which is what those other devices are designed for, and why they sell) but in the GTA03 it would be built into your phone (which makes it the most portable of all). Justyn. 2008/6/5 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED]: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective) The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA. Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and would love to see something similar on GTA0X. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:08:17 +0200 Jens Fursund [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: So it actually slower? Why can that be? i can go into details... but basically - glamo. the bus bandwidth. :/ Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:01 +0530 Rahul Joshi[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i think and the FreeRunner should be faster. don't be so sure about that! :) Any reason why you have doubts? To a common person, the performance b/w 1973 FreeRunner should be BIG if not HUGE. (i'm only asking) i have both - and have run it on both. :) don't assume it will be faster on a gta02. unfortunate facts :( it isn't. Rahul J On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:24 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 Pietro \m0nt0\ Montorfano [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: thomasg ha scritto: Hi list, there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too. So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it behaves like and some of the next-generation apps. I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around. It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look alike. Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16 MB, ~3.5 min) I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500 kbps h264 with vorbis sound. Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want. P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :( Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i think and the FreeRunner should be faster. don't be so sure about that! :) I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us keep the freerunner in our hands :D Cya!! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:34:30 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Am 06.06.2008 um 09:45 schrieb Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman): Yes, slowness is the most critical complaint. But how should I convince anyone to buy an OM if I also have a QVGA device which feels fast (based on OMAP 730 and some Qt 2.x)? this is my dilemma. win with dpi and sharpness, but then lose in smoothness/speed. i lean a bit to- smoothness myself, but i want to hear the peanut gallery so to speak :) (please don't take offence! i'm seriously about listening that's why i ask!) don't need them. just go to tokyo and look what's there on sale now. what's there will be what the rest of the world gets to doing 2 years later. Not necessarily. The iPhone wasn't there 3 years ago. And i-mode never became popular. But I agree that you can see some technology there already built into devices. hmm. i lived in japan for 4 years. my experience is that japan introduces into their phones what the rest of the world does 2 years later. years ago multi-megapixel phones were out. 5 years ago the default was 2mpixel and qvga. the ipone really is not amazing in terms of tech specs. it's fairly far behind. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is now the top of the line display. but again - you need/want the graphics back end to fill that many pixels smoothly. right now we are pushing that at best. :) How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels very smooth. it has a hardware-accelerated 3d chipset with full opengl drivers. and a very good chipset at that. that is why. as for half-vga. that's still HALF the pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen - we'd have better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave about how great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's dpi is pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as hell has not stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and reality seem to show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell. but even so - in the ultra-high-tech of japan's mobile phone telco's qvga is still VERY COMMON. if we want to play the my specs are better than your specs game right now, we will lose. we do not have the sourcing power of the Unfortuntely, I have to play that game if I want to sell OM devices... apple aren't! :) competing vendors. we often can't even get the better components at all, let alone for a good price. we get what we can get. sure - we have a vga screen, but really, how good is that if the rest of the device can't smoothly handle the screen? it isn't just dpi. if all you measure a device on is dpi and pixel There is one strategic aspect to consider: If you keep the same display model and vendor, it saves engineering time and you can drive down cost by getting more and more volume from a single vendor. This may outweight any better price of a different vendor. might - if you guys buy a few million phones. but in reality - we are such small volume it is hard enough even buying a screen at all! :) let alone being able to influence price by volume! :) count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi helps there, but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in fact these probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put money on that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy for over a decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract people). to make Yes. But this is in some conflict with providing an open platform that others can adapt to their user's needs. If it has QVGA it rules out many commercial projects where eye-candy and video speed is not that important but high information density. but then we have the reverse too. the question is - which is more important? in the world of phones the mass market is as it is higher volume, but again - it depends. i am wondering what projects would not be possible at qvga? seriously? ones you can actually read and use? this is my point. try and actual 2.8 screen at qvga for a while - try apps on it. they are still quite usable and visible. you may need to just deal with coarser fonts etc. but - it's still all there. :) i'm serious! if you have examples of projects that would ONLY work if we shipped a 2.8 285dpi screen but would not work on the same screen at all at 143dpi... i want to know! i suspect the reason would just be bad programming is why it won't work. and then the next would be it may display - but no one will be able to read it... :) but again - i want to know. things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower resolution to do it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws grunt is not changing, cpu is not, the only 2 things that can change are screen
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:15:10 +0200 Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Friday 06 June 2008 09:45:29 Carsten Haitzler wrote: the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then instead. I'd like to wave the little please can we have a decent SoC flag again. Yes, the CPU is too slow to drive VGA... but don't fix the problem by putting a lower-spec LCD in, fix the _real_ issue - The CPU is too slooow! i know. i know! :) preacher - converted. I assume you're concidering a new LCD for the GTA03? Fine, but if you're going for a revamp on the GTA04, stick the VGA display back in and give us (well, sell us) a SoC with some real graphics grunt. And I'm not talking about the Samsung s3c6400 - it is still way too underpowered. Maybe s3c6410 actually the 6400 would be fine imho. the 6410 isn't even available - so that's totally out of the picture. it's a scribble on someones product plan. until it's available in mass production - it doesn't exist. the 6410's 3d engine is also entirely undocumented. i can only find scant hints at its featureset. which seems to have a programmable 3D pipeline Go on, you know you want to... Pixel shaders... Compiz on a phone... windows which cast real, pixel-perfect soft shadows... Think what we could do with it! An entirely clutter (http://www.clutter-project.org/blog/) based UI! It's _worth_ a binary blob driver. Who knows, maybe samsung will even let you write an open source driver? (Don't think the s3c6410's 3D core is a PowerVR, seems to be something different?) it's not worth a binary blob and won't happen with a binary blob. we have made it clear that we are about things being open. we will stick to that. until we tell you otherwise :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On 6/6/08, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 06 June 2008 09:45:29 Carsten Haitzler wrote: the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then instead. I'd like to wave the little please can we have a decent SoC flag again. Yes, the CPU is too slow to drive VGA... but don't fix the problem by putting a lower-spec LCD in, fix the _real_ issue - The CPU is too slooow! I assume you're concidering a new LCD for the GTA03? Fine, but if you're going for a revamp on the GTA04, stick the VGA display back in and give us (well, sell us) a SoC with some real graphics grunt. And I'm not talking about the Samsung s3c6400 - it is still way too underpowered. Maybe s3c6410 which seems to have a programmable 3D pipeline Go on, you know you want to... Pixel shaders... Compiz on a phone... windows which cast real, pixel-perfect soft shadows... Think what we could do with it! An entirely clutter (http://www.clutter-project.org/blog/) based UI! It's _worth_ a binary blob driver. Who knows, maybe samsung will even let you write an open source driver? (Don't think the s3c6410's 3D core is a PowerVR, seems to be something different?) That was what I hoped for when I desided to not buy GTA01 and wait for GTA02. If it was me, I would: Create an amazing phone (GTA04) - price is less important. People would still buy if the hardware is good enough, and people spend increasingly amounts of money on their phones. Add 3g and make sure it can do quad band GSM. Also make sure it can play videos fast. Maybe integrate a low MEMS camera and a little flash light. Consider a transflective VGA LCM. Also create a low price phone. One with only the basic HW and a QVGA, but no wifi, but with an inexpensive MEMS camera. When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02), so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it should be an option when you buy -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Linux PDA with wifi?
Ian Stephen ian at tradeswest.ca wrote Sun Jun 1 05:54:23 CEST 2008 On May 31, 2008, Mike wrote: If I wanted a PDA the runs linux and has wifi, and gets good battery life, any suggestions? I've got a Nokia N800. Much less expensive than the N810, but 810 has some things 800 doesn't. Battery life is from 1 day to 1 week or so depending on how I'm using it. Wifi reception is the best of any device I've used. 2 SD slots that are SDHC compatible so plenty of storage. Fits a jacket or shirt pocket just fine. I use GPE calendar, todo, timesheet; camera, gnumeric and Maemopad+ daily. PDF viewer occasionally. Am very happy with it. Look forward to getting a bluetooth keyboard (perhaps iFrog). One regret is that I didn't put a screen protector on right away. Now has a scratchy feeling place on screen where I write the most. Oh, and the hand-writing recognition works much better for me than Palm's Grafitti 2 does. One gotcha to watch for is that Maemopad+ db main table data is lost if the device battery runs out with the application open. In my case I was able to recover the db with data from its backup table using a cli sqlite3 client. IanS Actually, I believe the N800 to be far superior to the N810. The N800 has two full-size SD card slots compared with the single mini-SD slot the N810 has. From what I hear the built-in GPS of the N810 isn't very sensitive, but even if it were it would be dependent on where you hold the unit, as opposed to the inexpensive bluetooth GPS receiver that I have for my N800 that is *extremely* sensitive and can be placed for optimum reception regardless of where the tablet is. The camera on the N800 swivels 270 degrees, whereas the N810's is fixed. The only real advantage the N810 has is the built-in keyboard, but a bluetooth keyboard (or small USB keyboard) solves that issue (and may be better because of easier typing and more keys). The only other thing the N810 has that the N800 doesn't (aside from more than double the price) is an ambient light sensor, which is not a big deal to me. I can't recommend the InvisibleShield screen protectors enough. I have never before seen a product so completely fulfill its hype. In addition to being inexpensive, they are also permanent, in the sense that they don't wear out and have to be replaced. Mine looks exactly the same as the day I installed it. Mark ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
InvisibleShield screen protectors
Hi, I only heard of them today, but they look very promissing: - life long warranty - free shipping worldwide You can find more info on http://www.zagg.com/ If you search the internet it seems almost nobody regrets having bought one. Are there other persons interested in buying one? (I already know of one) We could ask them to make one for the Freerunner. y _ De mooiste afbeeldingen van Angelina Jolie vind je met Live Search http://search.live.com/images/results.aspx?q=angelina%20jolieFORM=MIINTM___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Ublox AGPS On-line impelementation
Hi all, According to previous mail in community list, there is a perl version of AGPS on-line implementation. But it requires to install many packages. The following is the C implementation. Could you give me a pointer to the message or a link to the perl one. I did not find neither the message nor the implementation ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Hi, (I try to cut out some citations). this is my dilemma. win with dpi and sharpness, but then lose in smoothness/speed. i lean a bit to- smoothness myself, but i want to hear the peanut gallery so to speak :) (please don't take offence! i'm seriously about listening that's why i ask!) Someone has already pointed out that the dilemma is more on the processor. I.e. the problem should be solved by a faster processor with better GPU rather than challenging and and trying to redue user's expectations. Can you build container trucks smaller because then they need much less parking space? don't need them. just go to tokyo and look what's there on sale now. what's there will be what the rest of the world gets to doing 2 years later. Not necessarily. The iPhone wasn't there 3 years ago. And i-mode never became popular. But I agree that you can see some technology there already built into devices. hmm. i lived in japan for 4 years. my experience is that japan introduces into their phones what the rest of the world does 2 years later. years ago multi-megapixel phones were out. 5 years ago the default was 2mpixel and qvga. the ipone really is not amazing in terms of tech specs. it's fairly far behind. This can be reversed: if Japan already has WVGA mobile phones, probably since beginning of 2008, they will become available in 2009 in the rest of the world. What I mean with the iPhone is that although it has only half the number of pixels it feels dramatically faster than a Neo. I believe it would still feel fast on full VGA and I could read web pages better. Maybe we will even have some news on that on Monday... BTW, even the Apple Netwon did have more than QVGA (= 336 × 320) but that is not really comparable. it has a hardware-accelerated 3d chipset with full opengl drivers. and a very good chipset at that. that is why. as for half-vga. that's still HALF the Yes. This should be IMHO the future for GTA03 - use a better chipset rather than a worse display resolution. pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen - we'd have better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave about how great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's dpi is pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as hell has not stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and reality seem to show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell. I have now done some test with the mySTEP GUI stack which sits on X11. The one I have shown during LinuxTag. Some application I have choosen makes regular screen updates: Neo 1973every 0.5 seconds (due to more work for the higher number of pixels) Acer n30every 0.3 seconds (same CPU but QVGA) Zaurus C3100every 0.3 secons (with X/Qt on VGA) So, the difference is not that large by different architectures and display resolutions. The astonishing thing is that the C3100 is faster than the Neo with the same display. I.e. Display resolution by itself can not be the main issue with speed. Well, this is not transferrable to games or video players, but it indicates the direction. Yes. But this is in some conflict with providing an open platform that others can adapt to their user's needs. If it has QVGA it rules out many commercial projects where eye-candy and video speed is not that important but high information density. but then we have the reverse too. the question is - which is more important? in the world of phones the mass market is as it is higher volume, but again - it depends. i am wondering what projects would not be possible at qvga? seriously? ones you can actually read and use? this is my point. try and actual 2.8 screen at qvga for a while - try apps on it. they are still quite usable and visible. you may need to just deal with coarser fonts etc. but - it's still all Yes, they are. But just Quite. Not excellent. More difficult to read. It is like Porsche could reduce one or two gear levels. Can still be used as a car :-) mySTEP has resolution independence so that the identical app binaries work on both resolutions and try to show the same size. So it is easy to have both (Acer n30 / Neo 1973) sitting next to each other. There are large differences in how the same application looks. It is much more crisp on the Neo VGA. Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your desktop system? What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more? You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web browsing, gaming. Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old fashioned? there. :) i'm serious! if you have examples of projects that would ONLY work if we shipped a 2.8 285dpi screen but would not work on the same screen at all at 143dpi... i want to know! i
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:18 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: note - qvga really does look blocky on the 2.8 vga It's looking blocky starting at 2... Take a look at the newer Nokia phones (E- and N-Series), and you'll even notice it on _pictures_ of their displays. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
How about keeping VGA, and making the screen bigger then 2.8? Just an idea, Federico On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:34 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:16:15 +1000 (EST) NeilBrown [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Fri, June 6, 2008 3:39 pm, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. Well, it's hard to know without having an actual device to look at, but I'll try My notebook has a 15 inch 1920x1200 monitor which comes to 147dpi. The Freerunner is 285dpi, the pixels are very close to half the width/ height of my pixels. So at first I thought wow, that's tiny. I don't think I need them *that* small - and I have better than average eye sight. Then I resized my browser to 640x480 and found I could read it quite well, though lots of web pages don't quite fit. I took a screenshot of the window and displayed it at 50% in the GIMP. So presumably that is how the image could look on the Freerunner. If I hold this image at the same distance from my eye that I usually use a notebook (say 55cm) the text looks like it would be too small to comfortably read, though the reduction of resolution has made it blurry and I cannot be sure. If I hold it at the distance that I would typically read a book, which is closer to 35cm, the text is still a bit small, but I think I would be quite happy reading it - except that the low resolution has made it quite blurry. If it were still 640x480, but the same size I think I could read it quite happily. So my conclusion is that for reading textual content, the higher resolution probably is worth it for me. I doubt it would be of much value for photo for videos. I just tried watching a video at [EMAIL PROTECTED], and it was quite acceptable for the physical size. The question then becomes - how often will I be reading pages of text on my Freerunner. I really don't know. However maps are very similar to textual content - sharp contrast and the potential for lots of information in a small space. I tried a similar experiment comparing a google-maps image 320x240*147dpi and simulated [EMAIL PROTECTED], and the 320x240 felt very constrained - not enough information on the display. The 640x480 felt more comfortable and - I think - would have been readable if I had the real resolution. cool. someone actually has done a did some experiments on themselves! well done! this is just the kind of stuff i was hoping for. this is one of the best responses. it's subjective, but using objective measurements as best possible with the equipment you have. good! so yes - the blurry scaled down in gimp @ qvga would be a qvga screen on a freerunner. vga would be sharper. then again - until u have a 285dpi screen it's hard to really compare! :) but this is the best you can do! nice! :) opinion noted for the future! :) Maybe you could ask again we have all had our Freerunners for a couple of months. What was the story with 320x240x25fps video again? Is it possible with the available memory bandwidth? argh! :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote: On 6/6/08, NeilBrown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, June 6, 2008 3:39 pm, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. Well, it's hard to know without having an actual device to look at, but I'll try My notebook has a 15 inch 1920x1200 monitor which comes to 147dpi. The Freerunner is 285dpi, the pixels are very close to half the width/ height of my pixels. So at first I thought wow, that's tiny. I don't think I need them *that* small - and I have better than average eye sight. Then I resized my browser to 640x480 and found I could read it quite well, though lots of web pages don't quite fit. I took a screenshot of the window and displayed it at 50% in the GIMP. So presumably that is how the image could look on the Freerunner. No. Now you need to zoom 2x. Then compare the original with this. They should occupy the same amount of space on your screen, but the QVGA should only have half the pixels. No again :). Someone has mentioned this before, but I thought I'd clear this up since it's come up a few times. QVGA stands for Quarter VGA (320*240 = 75kpix), so it's 1/4 of the pixels of real VGA (640*480 = 300kpix). Half the height and you have half the pixels, after that half the width and 1/4 remains. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:05 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So it actually slower? Why can that be? i can go into details... but basically - glamo. the bus bandwidth. :/ Hmm, so we have product here which limits itself to be run at a speed only at which it would actually be useful/makeSense !? Interesting. Rahul J On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:05 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:08:17 +0200 Jens Fursund [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: So it actually slower? Why can that be? i can go into details... but basically - glamo. the bus bandwidth. :/ Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:01 +0530 Rahul Joshi[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i think and the FreeRunner should be faster. don't be so sure about that! :) Any reason why you have doubts? To a common person, the performance b/w 1973 FreeRunner should be BIG if not HUGE. (i'm only asking) i have both - and have run it on both. :) don't assume it will be faster on a gta02. unfortunate facts :( it isn't. Rahul J On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:24 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 Pietro \m0nt0\ Montorfano [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: thomasg ha scritto: Hi list, there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too. So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it behaves like and some of the next-generation apps. I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around. It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look alike. Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv(16 MB, ~3.5 min) I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500 kbps h264 with vorbis sound. Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want. P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :( Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i think and the FreeRunner should be faster. don't be so sure about that! :) I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us keep the freerunner in our hands :D Cya!! Pietro ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:02:14 -0400 Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: This question is probably just because I misunderstood something you said before, but I'll ask anyway :) If it is acceptable to use QVGA, couldn't that basically be done without any hardware changes? I believe I remember you saying the glamo does scaling, so couldn't you let SW treat the display as qvga, and just have the glamo scale it up? Or, is the question more about having qvga instead of the glamo (which leaves you back with the SDIO interface shortage)? we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. --Steve On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:42 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Would that be 320x240 (QVGA [1]) or 480x320? qvga is 320x240. wqvga... that's a whole world of resolutions (400x240, 432x240, 480x272, 480x320). :) I think the latter would be acceptable in terms of usability. OTOH it would also but it's not a drop-in replacement as its widescreen. we c ould go for 2.8 vga or 2.8 qvga. drop-in replacement. anything else mans new case/design etc. etc. also remember just getting supply of a screen is hard. you also need it at a decent physical size. i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution screen would be an ok compromise. - create extra maintenance cost for system and app themes one way or another we will need to be able to do multiple resolutions in the long-run. - narrow on-screen information for people with good eye-sight (granny won't be affected ;-) Sofar I haven't suffered from lacking graphic speed on my GTA01. It seemed that waiting for UI feedback was mainly cause by other background processes (e.g. SD-read or such) My interest are standard smartphone and geo apps and for those I'd rather go for resolution. again - it depends what you want to do. :) gta01 actually performance better in many ways graphically :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Having an edge in the my spec is bigger than yours-world wide championship is indeed good for marketing. Which sells more phones and spreads the open concept. Personally, i'd like VGA with the option to switch to QVGA for power-saving. (You DID save power on QVGA, no?). But then, I live in the west and the difference in price isn't a showstopper for me. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
On 06/06/08 03:49:22, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:04:27 -0700 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: at vga.. forget mame and games - they will be doing fullscreen updates. at vga... no chance (of any decent framerate). if you don't believe me... try it when you get one! :) at qvga though - maybe. also a lot of arcade games are for qvga res... or older ones are at least... CPS1 and CPS2 games are 384x224 so no Capcom fighting games etc. and you can forget downscaling. Michael. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: but as i said - i'm just looking to see what people think. and why. i'm very interested in why. why is a vga screen so important? can you REALLY see all the pixels? can you REALLY read an 8-point font on that screen at that size? (be honest!). from what i notice of people such a font is just a blurry mess to them and they are always increasing font sizes to be able to read anything, thus why spend so many pixels on it? but if you really can see that well - it does make sense. at least if u are always looking at static content. i content moves/animates, it's useless again. Personally, I could care less if the OM phones never have the capability to play video at all. I must use my smart phone to provide remote assistance for an astronomical observatory after normal working hours. I need to be able to run applications that show 80 column text displays. Believe it or not, pssh on a Treo with a 320x320 display can actually display 80 columns of text without scrolling, but the font is challenging to read, to say the least. What I can't do on my Treo is display the output of our spectrometer. There just aren't enough pixels. But it is possible to observe the spectrometer output on the neo1973. It's extremely cool - the neo1973 is all you need to successfully control and monitor a 360 ton telescope thousands of miles away. My ancient eyes barely have the ability to focus at all, but my eyesight is nearly perfect for an object 15 cm in front of my face. I can definitely see a big difference in image quality between photos displayed on my 320x320 pixel Treo, and the neo1973. The neo's display is far superior. I can see pixelation on my Treo very clearly, but not on the neo. I really, honest-to-god, can see the difference when I put them down in front of me, side by side. I'd be happy to pay $300 more for a phone just to have VGA instead of QVGA. If QVGA is to be offered on a low-end OM phone, that's great, as long as OM still offers higher resolution on their more expensive products. But I'd be very sad to see OM's flagship phone, which already has some pretty outdated features such as USB 1.1 and a rather old ARM core, drop its resolution below that found on many (most?) modern smart phones. I'm happy to trade off some degree of hardware obsolescence for openness, but surely the hardware platform shouldn't be moving *backwards*. Otherwise, why not just restart the production line for the Greenphone? Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video
On Friday 06 June 2008 18:21:07 Rahul Joshi wrote: I cannot really argue now that you say you have both and see it upfront :( It would be really nice if you can briefly educate as to why this is happening. The question is: What is making it 'not possible' to use the extra CPU speed in 02. Is it a bus limitation? Is it a software bottleneck? Please... this topic has been beaten to death on the lists during the last couple of weeks. Briefly: If it's just about putting pixels on the screen, then what we win with the faster rendering speed is lost due to the smaller bus bandwith to the GPU. Plus, SD transfers go the same path, hence sharing bandwith with transferring pixel commands to the GPU. Number crunching though is almost twice as fast on the 02. Can we talk about something else now? :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Samsung also seems to have no more ((partially) useful) docs about the s3c series online. Why not switch to freescale, and get solid arm11 SoCs with more power then even the samsung pedants and million times used in smartphones of all vendors? They even have hundreds of sites in documents freely available on most of the products. I still think that a arm-core from this century (not from the last like the s3c2xxx) would be able to have enough power to forget about the graphics accelerator for the most usecases. On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 06 June 2008 13:15:10 Tom Cooksey wrote: binary blob driver. Who knows, maybe samsung will even let you write an open source driver? (Don't think the s3c6410's 3D core is a PowerVR, seems to be something different?) I doubt it; IIRC they just removed a lot of specs from their site a few months ago. So they are going towards more CLOSED if anything. Agreed on the CPU being too slow. I would like to see something a lot closer to what Pandora is doing (except for the stupid form factor) for GTA04, IOW WVGA driven by a OMAP34XX or possibly MSM7201A. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: InvisibleShield screen protectors
COOL I want one on my neo :D Alexander Frøyseth Yorick Matthys skrev: Hi, I only heard of them today, but they look very promissing: - life long warranty - free shipping worldwide You can find more info on http://www.zagg.com/ If you search the internet it seems almost nobody regrets having bought one. Are there other persons interested in buying one? (I already know of one) We could ask them to make one for the Freerunner. y Plan je evenement, nodig mensen uit en deel je foto's met Windows Live Events http://events.live.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution screen would be an ok compromise. I would not be remotely as interested in a device which is not, at least, VGA. As another person mentioned qvga is too small to do any type of web browsing effectively. I currently use a Palm TX as my PDA and find that the 320 x 480 screen still does not have the resolution to make the browsing experience anything but painful. Cheers Scott Petersen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02), so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it should be an option when you buy If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings, to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option. Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30 somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'. I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: InvisibleShield screen protectors
I've used them on other devices. Very durable, and easy to install if you're careful. On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Yorick Matthys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I only heard of them today, but they look very promissing: - life long warranty - free shipping worldwide You can find more info on http://www.zagg.com/ If you search the internet it seems almost nobody regrets having bought one. Are there other persons interested in buying one? (I already know of one) We could ask them to make one for the Freerunner. y -- Plan je evenement, nodig mensen uit en deel je foto's met Windows Live Events http://events.live.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: InvisibleShield screen protectors
Hi, On Friday, 6. June 2008, Yorick Matthys wrote: Hi, I only heard of them today, but they look very promissing: - life long warranty - free shipping worldwide Looks like scratch protection. :) But yet another $25 to think about. Okay, I order one for my FreeRunner. You can find more info on http://www.zagg.com/ If you search the internet it seems almost nobody regrets having bought one. Are there other persons interested in buying one? (I already know of one) We could ask them to make one for the Freerunner. In general it is always a good idea to put your cellphone or smartphone behind some cover. The cover costs mostly lesser than the smart phone so you may think about it. :) Roland signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: InvisibleShield screen protectors
I couldn't find predefined protector[s] for neo (not really a surprise, really). So, how to obtain one of these for Freerunner? We have CAD files, so I don't see problems with measuring case or screen. What should I (or we) do to obtain screen protector (or better -- full body one)? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Cleared to start Mass production
It's way better than a triple Lindy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FUxUiMyt70feature=related -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:35 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Cleared to start Mass production Thursday 05 June 2008 steve wrote: The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production ( that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START. This is roughly the best news since hmm... i'm not entirely sure, since some really good news ;) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Wollersheim Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess). Does anyone else have a better guess? You cannot book an order at present. I reckon they will be able to ship to Pakistan. Cheers Dennis Masoom Alam wrote: Hi every one, I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on the mailing list :)). Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking this question. Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me in advance now? Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any recommendation in this regard? Regards, MM Alam -- -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- ..Dan // Leinir.. http://www.leinir.dk/ Co- existence or no existence - Piet Hein ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Cleared to start Mass production
Ya. You and me both. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland Häder Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:48 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Cleared to start Mass production Hi, On Thursday, 5. June 2008, steve wrote: The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production ( that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START. Is this the mail I have waited for? :D -- (GNU) PGP ID: 0x4D385570 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Cleared to start Mass production
I'm trying to get the fremont thing figured out. It isnt Frys. It's a wharehouse. So I will Be asking a very patient and very very nice person to do me favor. You're lucky, I'm charming, so we have a shot At getting it done. Ship date will depend on when I get a slot. We passed preMP. That means I get to run full bore 24/7. Other Projects are on the lines, so maybe next week we will get a line (SMT) dedicated to us. Then its build boards, assemble phones, test and ship. It's kinda like Xmas in June! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Federico Lorenzi Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:22 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Cleared to start Mass production Yay at last! So when does your psuedorandom date generator say they will be ready for shipping :) Also, in a previous email you mentioned pickups, I assume this means we would be able to go Fremont, CA, and actually fetch a FreeRunner, or is it only for larger orders? Cheers, Federico On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:12 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production ( that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Wollersheim Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess). Does anyone else have a better guess? You cannot book an order at present. I reckon they will be able to ship to Pakistan. Cheers Dennis Masoom Alam wrote: Hi every one, I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on the mailing list :)). Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking this question. Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me in advance now? Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any recommendation in this regard? Regards, MM Alam - - -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community - -- - --- Dennis Wollersheim Lecturer, Health Information Management La Trobe University Bundoora Victoria 3086 Room HS1:110 (03) 9479 1763 (bh) 0414 529 454 (mobile) http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller - --- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIRMWF41ROt9TlFkoRAhFTAJ9DvMdVl2bbtGUHJFG2nR8Dde9mOgCg/KlF E4wU+XXesXAVFoo0dvnJLck= =GOB0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video
The question may have been beaten to death but the answers surely haven't been satisfactory. (except for this and Rasterman's.) The only conclusion one can derives from all previous posts is:- 1. Everybody needs a VGA 2. VGA wont perform as smooth as it should on this CPU 3. We should have faster CPU (which in turn still would not matter since the bus speed is limited) I have my doubts cleared now. Thanks. Next. Rahul J On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 06 June 2008 18:21:07 Rahul Joshi wrote: I cannot really argue now that you say you have both and see it upfront :( It would be really nice if you can briefly educate as to why this is happening. The question is: What is making it 'not possible' to use the extra CPU speed in 02. Is it a bus limitation? Is it a software bottleneck? Please... this topic has been beaten to death on the lists during the last couple of weeks. Briefly: If it's just about putting pixels on the screen, then what we win with the faster rendering speed is lost due to the smaller bus bandwith to the GPU. Plus, SD transfers go the same path, hence sharing bandwith with transferring pixel commands to the GPU. Number crunching though is almost twice as fast on the 02. Can we talk about something else now? :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:18:43 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hi, (I try to cut out some citations). this is my dilemma. win with dpi and sharpness, but then lose in smoothness/speed. i lean a bit to- smoothness myself, but i want to hear the peanut gallery so to speak :) (please don't take offence! i'm seriously about listening that's why i ask!) Someone has already pointed out that the dilemma is more on the processor. I.e. the problem should be solved by a faster processor with better GPU rather than challenging and and trying to redue user's expectations. Can you build container trucks smaller because then they need much less parking space? but when it has been determined that your cpu is not changing - and there are no other gpu options to improve things... you only can change resolution or speed. which is more important? pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen - we'd have better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave about how great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's dpi is pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as hell has not stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and reality seem to show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell. I have now done some test with the mySTEP GUI stack which sits on X11. The one I have shown during LinuxTag. Some application I have choosen makes regular screen updates: Neo 1973 every 0.5 seconds (due to more work for the higher number of pixels) Acer n30 every 0.3 seconds (same CPU but QVGA) Zaurus C3100 every 0.3 secons (with X/Qt on VGA) So, the difference is not that large by different architectures and display resolutions. The astonishing thing is that the C3100 is faster than the Neo with the same display. I.e. Display resolution by itself can not be the main issue with speed. Well, this is not transferrable to games or video players, but it indicates the direction. yup. true. these will vary based on what you do. are you mostly memory bus bound or calculation bound, setup bound etc. if you're memory bound - which a lot of graphics is (blits, fills etc.) you'e going to see a big difference based just on pixel count. i.e - closer to 4x for qvga vs vga. but then we have the reverse too. the question is - which is more important? in the world of phones the mass market is as it is higher volume, but again - it depends. i am wondering what projects would not be possible at qvga? seriously? ones you can actually read and use? this is my point. try and actual 2.8 screen at qvga for a while - try apps on it. they are still quite usable and visible. you may need to just deal with coarser fonts etc. but - it's still all Yes, they are. But just Quite. Not excellent. More difficult to read. It is like Porsche could reduce one or two gear levels. Can still be used as a car :-) aah - but openmoko isn't porsche :) well not yet. mySTEP has resolution independence so that the identical app binaries work on both resolutions and try to show the same size. So it is easy to have both (Acer n30 / Neo 1973) sitting next to each other. There are large differences in how the same application looks. It is much more crisp on the Neo VGA. Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your desktop system? What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more? You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web browsing, gaming. Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old fashioned? this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than 20/20 and i use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can read my miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen - they all complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i want anyone to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast majority of other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself out of this - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an exception to the rule. there. :) i'm serious! if you have examples of projects that would ONLY work if we shipped a 2.8 285dpi screen but would not work on the same screen at all at 143dpi... i want to know! i suspect the reason would just be bad programming is why it won't work. and then the next would be it may display - but no one will be able to read it... :) but again - i want to know. Some have already been mentioned. What I immediately see (which is not at all exhaustive): * viewing pictures (320x240 has just room for a thumbnail but not a viewer) * rendering web pages * maps / satellite pictures * Terminal (QVGA just gives a 40*30 text display
Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
On 6/6/08, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stroller you crack me up. (vi rules.) We need a religious war between the Digitii, the Stylii, and Quertii. Or three products? Rant away. Your views are always welcome. Stylus:) I hate those big keypads and I need to use the terminal a lot ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cleared to start Mass production
Aren't we getting the videos of the device crash tests ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
I see the whole 'stylus holder' as a simple manufacturing choice. Just like we choose the Freerunner based on 850/1800/1900 frequencies or 900/1800/1900 frequencies, having a choice of I want a case with a stylus holder or not, could be a simple case choice when ordering. So design a case with and without a stylus holder, and away you go. You don't want it, don't order it. You want it, you'd have the option to request it. Just my $0.02. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cleared to start Mass production
If I beg and plead, would you post these on youtube or some such thing? :-) On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Mohamed Hazem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aren't we getting the videos of the device crash tests ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
On 6/5/08, Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on future OM phones. The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which is better than what you find on a typical smart phone. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I couldn't stand going back on resolution after having seen this screen. 640*480 is beautiful. Decreasing the resolution to increase speed is not worth it. Ortwin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
Just give thanks that the GTA01 and 02 cases have a hole in them. It is better to tie the stylus to the phone than have to remember to always park it rather than put it down. And with good resolution you can make really good use of the screen and stylus if you dont make everything on the screen big enough for fingers. clare (who is both Stylii and Quertii) On Fri, 6 Jun 2008, steve wrote: Stroller you crack me up. (vi rules.) We need a religious war between the Digitii, the Stylii, and Quertii. On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote: Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed to hold a stylus? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: ... Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your desktop system? What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more? You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web browsing, gaming. Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old fashioned? this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than 20/20 and i use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can read my miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen - they all complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i want anyone to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast majority of other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself out of this - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an exception to the rule. Hi there, I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to personally compare VGA QVGA 2 phone screens. However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is generally quite visible to me. Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for me, be better for displaying webpages PDFs - I'll be able to fit more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller text. So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?). Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: resolution preferences??
When printer technology went from dot-matrix to laser-print (and later, ink-jet) there was a substantial qualitative difference in the visual appearance and quality of the output. One of the most attractive features of the Neo, for me, is the corresponding jump in display resolution. I've been waiting for this ever since laser-printing arrived! BTW, I would be perfectly happy driving VIDEO at lower resolution, but graphics, and especially text, really benefits from resolutions nearing the 300dpi range. -- Forwarded message -- From: rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:12:24 +0530 Subject: Re: resolution preferences?? The difference between the VGA screen of the Neo and the QVGA screens I have are very clear to me (with the VGA being clearly superior) when kept side by side. But for most of my activities including reading long emails the QVGA resolution is enough. So unless we have the processing power to run at least 25 FPS VGA video, I would be happy with a QVGA as there is bound to be a price and performance improvement. Rakshat On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:09 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:02:14 -0400 Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: This question is probably just because I misunderstood something you said before, but I'll ask anyway :) If it is acceptable to use QVGA, couldn't that basically be done without any hardware changes? I believe I remember you saying the glamo does scaling, so couldn't you let SW treat the display as qvga, and just have the glamo scale it up? Or, is the question more about having qvga instead of the glamo (which leaves you back with the SDIO interface shortage)? we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen when we won't use it. also it does look blocky. it isn't about glamo or not - it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen... really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really honest. stop thinking my specs are bigger than your specs. scan u REALLY see all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my bet. i'm asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers. --Steve On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:42 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 03:36:10 +0530 Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: The question may have been beaten to death but the answers surely haven't been satisfactory. (except for this and Rasterman's.) The only conclusion one can derives from all previous posts is:- 1. Everybody needs a VGA 2. VGA wont perform as smooth as it should on this CPU 3. We should have faster CPU (which in turn still would not matter since the bus speed is limited) I have my doubts cleared now. Thanks. if you want the :beaten to death threads - search the archives for anything i have mailed - u'll see ones about video playback performance and others - i go into lots of details. that is what mickey is talking about. not the immediate last few mails this week... :) Next. Rahul J On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 06 June 2008 18:21:07 Rahul Joshi wrote: I cannot really argue now that you say you have both and see it upfront :( It would be really nice if you can briefly educate as to why this is happening. The question is: What is making it 'not possible' to use the extra CPU speed in 02. Is it a bus limitation? Is it a software bottleneck? Please... this topic has been beaten to death on the lists during the last couple of weeks. Briefly: If it's just about putting pixels on the screen, then what we win with the faster rendering speed is lost due to the smaller bus bandwith to the GPU. Plus, SD transfers go the same path, hence sharing bandwith with transferring pixel commands to the GPU. Number crunching though is almost twice as fast on the 02. Can we talk about something else now? :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
*In theory*, a manufacturer could make replacement, er... *upgrade*, cases, built to take some off the shelf stylus such as those found in some other device, like a Palm for instance. On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:32 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see the whole 'stylus holder' as a simple manufacturing choice. Just like we choose the Freerunner based on 850/1800/1900 frequencies or 900/1800/1900 frequencies, having a choice of I want a case with a stylus holder or not, could be a simple case choice when ordering. So design a case with and without a stylus holder, and away you go. You don't want it, don't order it. You want it, you'd have the option to request it. Just my $0.02. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:30:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: ... Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your desktop system? What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more? You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web browsing, gaming. Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old fashioned? this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than 20/20 and i use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can read my miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen - they all complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i want anyone to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast majority of other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself out of this - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an exception to the rule. Hi there, I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to personally compare VGA QVGA 2 phone screens. However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is generally quite visible to me. Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for me, be better for displaying webpages PDFs - I'll be able to fit more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller text. So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?). Stroller. it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i never see them... :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GSoC project status: Speech Recognition facility in open moko
Hello Esben Stien Although I had a look at sphinx but at this moment I am not very sure that how much will i reuse it since with their very little documentation, the source code is not so comprehensible. However, I am trying to get a hand on it and use its libraries wherever possible. On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:20 AM, Esben Stien [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: saurabh gupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am saurabh gupta, working on speech recognition facility in open moko All fine and dandy, but are you also looking at sphinx? -- Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Saurabh Gupta Electronics and Communication Engg. NSIT,New Delhi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i never see them... :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Its just that the excellent vision gifted people are very vocal about VGA because the improvement is very clear to them (including me - and is this not the question you had asked). I would also like to change my vote to VGA if it is easy enough switch between QVGA and VGA resolutions. I was earlier willing to sacrifice resolution for speedy performance but I am ok if I can have the QVGA GUI for speed when I want it and the higher resolution rest of the time. rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GSoC project status: Speech Recognition facility in open moko
Hello I exactly didn't get your point. Do you want to say about the final application interface or something else. Thanks... On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 3:00 AM, Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So wouldn't it be a main problem if we change the main applications like the Dialer, the contacts etc? for example from GTK to Qtopia? other way round or anything else? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Saurabh Gupta Electronics and Communication Engg. NSIT,New Delhi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
