Re: A marketing angle
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 11/23/06 4:54 AM, "Ben F-W" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: When I get a minute, I'll collate the ideas so far and try to categorise them - anyone else been organised enough to do this yet? This would be awesome. Please forward them to me and I'll organize them on our Wiki. Glad it would be useful, Sean. I'm away travelling for 9 days from Saturday, but will see if I have time to look at this (around packing!) tomorrow night. If I don't, I'm afraid I won't be able to pull it together till Monday week or so. Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 00:01 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: > On 11/23/06 7:16 AM, "Michael Lauer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>> For example - I'm not hearing much about middleware in the OpenMoko API > >>> - how different applications can collaborate, create metadata (e.g. for > >>> usage-prediction), and share resources or data - I suspect (although I'd > >>> love to be wrong) that there isn't much support for such things. > > > >> Component-based adaptive Middleware for Mobile Distributed Systems? > > > > That rings a bell... now where did i hear that? > > ;-) Pfff! Still not hearing much about middleware ;-) Looked briefly into Funambol/SyncML.. is it a worthwhile time investment to look into it in more detail just now, or does the OpenMoko API wrap this and make the actual underlying implementation irrelevant? Cheers, Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 23:36 +, Ben F-W wrote: > Richard Franks wrote: > > the main competitive > > differentiation is that you will be able to find software for the phone > > to do just about anything. That is, instead of focusing on a particular > > 'killer app', make the 'killer app' the fact that you are not being > > restricted by or charged for features or applications. > > I can certainly see that being interesting for a subset of people, > Richard: those who *want* to be pushing the boundaries of what their > phone can do. But the majority of people want, as Graham Perrin put it, > "the clicky speaky thing in my hand/pocket... to be as *simple* as > possible". The ability to add new programs means unlimited opportunity > to some, unlimited complexity to others, and I think people will need a > clear, proven, safe, simple benefit to draw them over to the OpenMoko. > > I'd be happy to be proved wrong - but certainly for desktop Linux, the > benefit you mention doesn't seem to be enough of a draw for the majority. I agree absolutely with the thrust of your statement - traditionally more software = more complexity = less reliability. There is correlation definitely, but I'd debate whether we're observing causation. We want to (in general, I think these are safe assumptions): * Maximise software choices * Minimise complexity * Maximise reliability Traditionally software applications for the major platforms are developed using radically different technologies, by many different entities, all of which are enabled by the underlying OS in a rather ad-hoc 'patchwork' manner. c.f. usb support through Win95->Win2k. By creating a new framework from scratch, you have the opportunity to circumvent a lot of these problems. For example, if your application exclusively uses the OpenMoko API, and makes no OS calls.. then assuming backwards compatibility isn't broken by subsequent OpenMoko releases.. your application is going to play nice forever. Furthermore, it's going to be easier to port to other OpenMoko hardware platforms. Of course, this would mean that the application/framework communication architecture has to be fully fleshed out from the start - just one simple example of event handling would be whether your app exits from a system callback, or has to handle (correctly) its own input and shutdown? It comes down to design -- the most elegant designs marry underlying complexity with simple (non-scary) end-user interfaces. If OpenMoko delivers on that front then the possibility exists to break the unlimited options=complexity mindset. That said, all that does is create the foundation for the 'killer app' itself. Maybe a more scalable approach would be instead of focusing on one grand amazing killer-application, create a little family of less-ambitious but more easily achievable micro-apps which each perform a simple function well? Cheers, Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On 11/23/06 7:15 AM, "Michael Lauer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We already have an internal Wiki that > we planned to open up for everyone > once we launch the device. Since all > of you are having so many great ideas > right now, it would be a shame to wait > until then. > > It would make much sense to add a fresh > new mediawiki right now and then just > copy our "super-secret" stuff over once we > launch the device. > > Sean, what do you think? Let's do it! Although I won't have time to start the work until the weekend. Can somebody on this list start putting some topics in order? -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On 11/23/06 7:16 AM, "Michael Lauer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> For example - I'm not hearing much about middleware in the OpenMoko API >>> - how different applications can collaborate, create metadata (e.g. for >>> usage-prediction), and share resources or data - I suspect (although I'd >>> love to be wrong) that there isn't much support for such things. > >> Component-based adaptive Middleware for Mobile Distributed Systems? > > That rings a bell... now where did i hear that? ;-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On 11/23/06 5:39 AM, "Koen Kooi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Okay, I'm still missing something. What is there in the GPL that would >> force the rival company to benefit FIC in any way? > > They can't created a closed platform as you suggested without getting sued. > Unless FIC > chooses a sucky license like MIT or BSD for their stuff. We're going GPL all the way ;-) -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On 11/23/06 4:54 AM, "Ben F-W" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sean, any chance of a wiki going up yet, so we can collate all the > application ideas so far? I know you haven't got much to do at the moment... We've got a Wiki internally that will be made public when we launch this product. > It would be useful to be able to sort the ideas by group: in this case, > the Answerphone section. That would also help decide whether Gabriel's > earlier idea could work - whether there are enough non-phone > possibilities to make it possible to initially de-emphasise the phone > application (i.e. "it's a GPS device that also does phone") > > When I get a minute, I'll collate the ideas so far and try to categorise > them - anyone else been organised enough to do this yet? This would be awesome. Please forward them to me and I'll organize them on our Wiki. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Salve Ben! On Wed, 22 Nov 2006, Ben F-W wrote: > Robert Michel wrote: > >But when we concentrate on the core functions, to make them very > >usable - and add some new/fresh ideas like > > 8 ways to answer a phone (now, mailbox "sorry I'm busy call me in 15 > > minutes again) > >then will become the OpenMoko plattform interesting for the mass market > >and of course for FIC, too ;) > > > Agreed, definitely: if we get the core functions easy enough to use > (i.e. at least as easy as current devices), and then find a couple of > applications that will really excite a non-geek... I explained that idea in an other mail http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000111.html Consider the touchscreen with 640x480 pixel screen and no keyboard forget the way to answer a call today - there are more options :) BTW, it would be nice to see the pictures of the caller, (pressing on the picture could answer the call) but also some info when I met/spoke him last date of his last email and its subject memo/todo linked with him a list of borrowed and the number of the credit he has given or take from me A pressing on the "last email" and other info would let me switch to more info, e.g. his email and give me a chance to read it fast before I answer the call... > then there's a strong > chance of success. I'm not sure we've found all those killer > applications yet, but the ideas so far have been great. I'm very shure that FIC and Sean has some ideas that will surprise us when the first devices will be shipped :) IMHO is _not_ our job to think about a "killer application" with the aim to save the economic succsess for FIC. And it could be a big advantage to have the freedom to think about a phone that you, I, we would like - without the focus and concentrating on a "killer application". Every new phone generation has some new "killer application" or "killer function" but the rest of the phone is crap or half-hearted function - produced with the strategie 3 stepps forward (for the aggressive advertising), but 2 stepps back at the same time and with the dogma - a coustomer should be unhappy on a long term, so that he wants to compensate this unhappiness with consum - our advertisment and the new features makes him think, that the new product would satisfy him - but that has to be an illusion, at last our advertisment has to make him unhappy again This is a bit offtopic, but there is a very good short film "more" that worth to see in high quality in a cinema - or even on dvd. There is a low resultion version online: http://www.gethappy.com/more1.html How cares about the "killer arguments" MMS, coulored display, polyphone ring sounds of last years? And why should I buy today a new phone? Because of a camera? A radio? Because to play MP3 songs? Choose the Neo1973 it can also play Ogg/Vorbis1!!1! Well this could be an argument still in 2008, I fear, but this will not convince normal consuments. Imagine FIC does have a "killer application" then will it something other mobile producers will also offer - sooner or later. It will be a killer application for 2007 - 2008 there must be a new one, because the coustumer needs something to show that they are "up to date" and the latest phone But remember: smartphone = mobile PC + GSM/GPRS (+ AGPS) So see the PCs. Why does your friends do buy a new PC? To play the latest games and because the system went hell - instead of learning to type with 10 fingers and how to administrate their computer, they buy a new one, with the illusion, that his PC will make them more happy. As more computers can do, as more important is what YOU can do. For this reason I talked about information and education offers, e.g. with video, for the users. How many function does a phone of today offers, how many function does a normal user knows how many could he use and how many did he use? To unleash the power of an open Linux smartphone as the Neo1973 does need it a different philosophy than the economic of the primitive smartphones of today. Thinking different is a chance for a new competitor OpenMoko/Neo1973/FIC. The perspective to have an open hardware and to be able to update the software, even the firmware, to modify even the firmware is __revolutionary__ for the (smart)phone market. The phones of today are so dumb, short term econic interests does have influenced to much the development of the hard and software. > One point on ease-of-use, by the way... there's currently a large chunk > of people who only ever plan to buy the brand of phone they're currently > using. Nokia has a large chunk of these followers, but other companies > have sizeable portions as well. Maybe - but I will not look what other phones do good - I like to see what is possible to imagine and to solve - what would be handy... I do not see the need for having a virtual "answering button" on the right or left side, becouse Nokia has such a button on that side. I
Re: A marketing angle
Stefan Schmidt wrote: Ah, now I understand what you mean! Nice. (/me makes another dash on his explain-people-the-open-source-way-of-thinking list). ;) To be fair, we're now some way from your original comment. We've gone from "rival companies copying GPL'd programs is exactly what FIC want" to "rival companies wouldn't be *able* to copy GPL'd programs because the porting cost would be prohibitive". The first comment I disagreed with, the second I'm in full agreement. And I'm glad we talked it over! After a better understanding of the facts companies are still able to have a good business with open source software on their devices. And I very much look forward to FIC building good business on open source software! Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Richard Franks wrote: the main competitive differentiation is that you will be able to find software for the phone to do just about anything. That is, instead of focusing on a particular 'killer app', make the 'killer app' the fact that you are not being restricted by or charged for features or applications. I can certainly see that being interesting for a subset of people, Richard: those who *want* to be pushing the boundaries of what their phone can do. But the majority of people want, as Graham Perrin put it, "the clicky speaky thing in my hand/pocket... to be as *simple* as possible". The ability to add new programs means unlimited opportunity to some, unlimited complexity to others, and I think people will need a clear, proven, safe, simple benefit to draw them over to the OpenMoko. I'd be happy to be proved wrong - but certainly for desktop Linux, the benefit you mention doesn't seem to be enough of a draw for the majority. Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
>> For example - I'm not hearing much about middleware in the OpenMoko API >> - how different applications can collaborate, create metadata (e.g. for >> usage-prediction), and share resources or data - I suspect (although I'd >> love to be wrong) that there isn't much support for such things. > Component-based adaptive Middleware for Mobile Distributed Systems? That rings a bell... now where did i hear that? Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
> Redvers Davies (openmoko) wrote: >> Call screening. >> >> When someone calls you and they go to answering machine you can listen >> and pick up if you choose. > Interesting idea, Redvers! There seem to be several good possibilities > focussing around the answering machine services: the ability to select > between recorded messages when rejecting a call springs to mind here. > Sean, any chance of a wiki going up yet, so we can collate all the > application ideas so far? I know you haven't got much to do at the moment... We already have an internal Wiki that we planned to open up for everyone once we launch the device. Since all of you are having so many great ideas right now, it would be a shame to wait until then. It would make much sense to add a fresh new mediawiki right now and then just copy our "super-secret" stuff over once we launch the device. Sean, what do you think? Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Richard Franks schreef: > For example - I'm not hearing much about middleware in the OpenMoko API > - how different applications can collaborate, create metadata (e.g. for > usage-prediction), and share resources or data - I suspect (although I'd > love to be wrong) that there isn't much support for such things. Component-based adaptive Middleware for Mobile Distributed Systems? regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFZNSmMkyGM64RGpERAmZpAJ4pxvHz0BnqcsUvyXAo92H10JQcwQCeJEzz p/wC09QBvtGoIHATmdElWXs= =tVWQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
> Sean, any chance of a wiki going up yet, so we can collate all the > application ideas so far? I know you haven't got much to do at the moment... I was very impressed with the ease and speed of setting up MediaWiki. I'd be interested in joining a development effort before seeing the OpenMoko API, as many of the ideas I've seen can be logically divorced from the low-level (e.g. dialing, negotiating connections), and the high-level API wrappers for the GUI/input etc. There's a lot of grunt work to do which can be done using stubs for the API functionality which hasn't been released yet. For example - I'm not hearing much about middleware in the OpenMoko API - how different applications can collaborate, create metadata (e.g. for usage-prediction), and share resources or data - I suspect (although I'd love to be wrong) that there isn't much support for such things. > When I get a minute, I'll collate the ideas so far and try to categorise > them - anyone else been organised enough to do this yet? Not that I know of, but I think that would be really rather handy! Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Touchscreen UIs (was: A marketing angle)
Hi guys, please remember to change the topic when the thread drifts off into something slightly or completely different ;) > Well there's the benq Blackbox concept out there which is essentially a phone > that has a touchscreen all over that does show context sensitive buttons. > However, I'm not entirely sure if the average user would even WANT to deal > with touchscreens over a real keypad. Many even complain over the Razr style > touchpads... In Asia that's not much of an issue but I imagine in the West > ist might very well be. For one thing, my parents never cared for the > touchscreen in my P900 PDA phone... Really? All the time I've watch elder people operating devices I found they were completely puzzled (or at least slightly annoyed) by the conceptional (and physical) gap between an unlabelled physical button (a.k.a softkey) and a label on a screen describing its current function. In my opinion it's a matter of a coherent UI. It's certainly more challenging to get to a good touchscreen UI, but if you have one, I believe that usability can be more efficient than one a hardkey/non-ts UI. Also, I'm not buying the redundancy argument. In my opinion more ways to achieve the same (i.e. by accessing functions through hard buttons, through soft-buttons, and through browsing menus) is more confusing than having just one way to trigger each and every function. Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 21:34 +, Ben F-W wrote: > However, if what you say is true, there would be a major effort required > by the rival in converting the app over to their handset (if it runs > Qtopia). That doesn't mean that they couldn't do it, but it's a lot harder. > And you should not forget that the company has to do it alone. No > community jumps in and help. Something like Oracles "Unbreakable Linux" (or indeed many other Linux Distros), shows that it's not unfeasible to re-brand someone else's work with your own logos - once you've done the main port, you selectively merge patches. > This does rest on the assumption that the rival's system isn't based on > X and GTK and so on, which would mean there could still be a problem. > But it's a lot less likely in the short term. Hmm.. what drew my interest was the open-source nature of the project, translated for the non-geek end user, the main competitive differentiation is that you will be able to find software for the phone to do just about anything. That is, instead of focusing on a particular 'killer app', make the 'killer app' the fact that you are not being restricted by or charged for features or applications. That said, I'm sure we're going to see some _very_ interesting applications :-) Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Hello. On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 21:34, Ben F-W wrote: > Stefan Schmidt wrote: > > > >Porting the apps from OpenMoko over to Qtopia is a real pita. No new > >kernel features, X instead of framebuffer, gtk instead of qt. Writing > >it from scratch seems easier for me. > > > Ah, now I understand what you mean! Nice. (/me makes another dash on his explain-people-the-open-source-way-of-thinking list). ;) > What I was essentially getting at here is what's called 'sustained > competitive differentiation' in marketing-speak. That means that to > break into this market, FIC would have to have a long-term advantage > over rivals that they were unable to copy - or which, by the time > they've copied it, is out of date. What concerned me about the GPL'd > 'killer app' is that there was nothing to stop a rival company just > taking the program and putting it onto their own handset - which > wouldn't contravene the GPL as I understand it. Competitive > differentiation lost. That's the way most business people thinking. After a better understanding of the facts companies are still able to have a good business with open source software on their devices. > This does rest on the assumption that the rival's system isn't based on > X and GTK and so on, which would mean there could still be a problem. At this point the company would think twice why they not just use OpenMoko. And FIC is interested in other companies using OpenMoko. regards Stefan Schmidt signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On Wednesday 22 November 2006 22:34, Ben F-W wrote: > Taking account of this, I wonder if it would be possible/useful to be > able to 'skin' the user interface? Not just in a visual way, but so that > people could switch their phone from operating like a Nokia to operating > like a Motorola to a Sony Ericsson to...? So when you get it out of the > box, you can tell it what interface your last phone had, and all the > 'keys' would operate exactly like you're used to. Well there's the benq Blackbox concept out there which is essentially a phone that has a touchscreen all over that does show context sensitive buttons. However, I'm not entirely sure if the average user would even WANT to deal with touchscreens over a real keypad. Many even complain over the Razr style touchpads... In Asia that's not much of an issue but I imagine in the West ist might very well be. For one thing, my parents never cared for the touchscreen in my P900 PDA phone... pgpBQduHB3R4w.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ben F-W schreef: > Koen Kooi wrote: >> Ben F-W schreef: >> >>> Could you explain this? How would it benefit FIC for a rival >>> manufacturer to take a program developed for the OpenMoko platform and >>> adjust it to work on their own, closed, Linux implementation on their >>> phones? >>> >> That's where the GPL and Harald's lawyers come in. Companies don't >> seem to understand >> licenses, but do seem to get a clue after being sued (d-link for >> example). >> > Okay, I'm still missing something. What is there in the GPL that would > force the rival company to benefit FIC in any way? They can't created a closed platform as you suggested without getting sued. Unless FIC chooses a sucky license like MIT or BSD for their stuff. regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFZMOCMkyGM64RGpERAmAGAJ9/5WanRV3cc7mDYOsrpmSboKWnwQCfeMk9 ESsoXPn7C9LlnQleylfyMpQ= =E2r8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 11/22/06 1:21 AM, "Ben F-W" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I hope you don't mind my speculating in the meantime? Not at all. I really like the fact that we are having (somewhat at least) non-technical discussion, too. This is really exciting for me. I'm pleased to hear it! I felt the marketing side was being under-represented in the discussions so far: and as it's my own speciality, I thought I might have something to add. Afraid I'm not so good on the technical details! Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Robert Michel wrote: But when we concentrate on the core functions, to make them very usable - and add some new/fresh ideas like 8 ways to answer a phone (now, mailbox "sorry I'm busy call me in 15 minutes again) then will become the OpenMoko plattform interesting for the mass market and of course for FIC, too ;) Agreed, definitely: if we get the core functions easy enough to use (i.e. at least as easy as current devices), and then find a couple of applications that will really excite a non-geek... then there's a strong chance of success. I'm not sure we've found all those killer applications yet, but the ideas so far have been great. One point on ease-of-use, by the way... there's currently a large chunk of people who only ever plan to buy the brand of phone they're currently using. Nokia has a large chunk of these followers, but other companies have sizeable portions as well. The reason these people are wedded to their current manufacturer is the differences in interface between the systems. On a Nokia, you press the Power button once to select ring style - on most other phones, that doesn't work. On a Nokia, the "space" button when typing is the zero - on other phones, it's 1, # or a variety of other options. The need to learn an entirely new interface is a major 'switching cost' for a lot of users, and this is a problem for a market entrant. Taking account of this, I wonder if it would be possible/useful to be able to 'skin' the user interface? Not just in a visual way, but so that people could switch their phone from operating like a Nokia to operating like a Motorola to a Sony Ericsson to...? So when you get it out of the box, you can tell it what interface your last phone had, and all the 'keys' would operate exactly like you're used to. I don't know the extent to which patents would prevent this from happening... but it might be worth looking in to. Would anyone else find this as useful as I would? It certainly wouldn't be a killer app in the way we've been discussing... but it could be a very useful hygiene factor. Perhaps one route to mass market would be the home interface setup - which seems to be what the majority of suggestions have centred around on this list. If Asterisk could be made simple enough to package into a 'black box' that consumers don't have to configure (in the same way MythTV is beginning to be), yes ;) asterisk cold be in the background, but its /etc/asterisk/extensions.conf should be hidden for the normal consumers Not quite what I was thinking: sorry, I don't think I explained myself very well! I was imagining Asterisk to be plugged into the home telephone network, rather than being on the Neo itself. Then it could interface with the Neo and allow all the blurring-of-landline-and-mobile ideas mentioned earlier to be used. It's a long-term dream, anyway: not immediately useful here. Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Koen Kooi wrote: Ben F-W schreef: Could you explain this? How would it benefit FIC for a rival manufacturer to take a program developed for the OpenMoko platform and adjust it to work on their own, closed, Linux implementation on their phones? That's where the GPL and Harald's lawyers come in. Companies don't seem to understand licenses, but do seem to get a clue after being sued (d-link for example). Okay, I'm still missing something. What is there in the GPL that would force the rival company to benefit FIC in any way? Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Stefan Schmidt wrote: On Tue, 2006-11-21 at 17:12, Ben F-W wrote: Stefan Schmidt wrote: Nothing. It's exactly what FIC want. Could you explain this? How would it benefit FIC for a rival manufacturer to take a program developed for the OpenMoko platform and adjust it to work on their own, closed, Linux implementation on their phones? Porting the apps from OpenMoko over to Qtopia is a real pita. No new kernel features, X instead of framebuffer, gtk instead of qt. Writing it from scratch seems easier for me. Ah, now I understand what you mean! So the restrictions on a rival taking our putative 'killer app' and putting it onto their own Linux-based mobile are not legal, but technical. That makes much more sense to me. What I was essentially getting at here is what's called 'sustained competitive differentiation' in marketing-speak. That means that to break into this market, FIC would have to have a long-term advantage over rivals that they were unable to copy - or which, by the time they've copied it, is out of date. What concerned me about the GPL'd 'killer app' is that there was nothing to stop a rival company just taking the program and putting it onto their own handset - which wouldn't contravene the GPL as I understand it. Competitive differentiation lost. However, if what you say is true, there would be a major effort required by the rival in converting the app over to their handset (if it runs Qtopia). That doesn't mean that they couldn't do it, but it's a lot harder. And you should not forget that the company has to do it alone. No community jumps in and help. And this is the second part of the solution. By the time the rival company had taken a GPL'd program and adapted it for their own system, the program they had forked would have been improved: bugs fixed, features added and so on. So they'd have to keep maintaining the forked program themselves - without the savings offered by the help from the community. Competitive differentiation maintained. This does rest on the assumption that the rival's system isn't based on X and GTK and so on, which would mean there could still be a problem. But it's a lot less likely in the short term. Really open your platform and you get lots of brilliant software engineers for free. No need to pay yopur own devs for writing apps. More apps makes it more interesting for users. As you can see I don't know the business plan from FIC. I only think that I share the point of view with Sean on most of the parts. �ave a real open platform on linux smartphones was the reason I joined OpenEZX. And I'm eager to see OpenMoko running on it as software stack. :) Fully agree with all of the above! Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Redvers Davies (openmoko) wrote: Call screening. When someone calls you and they go to answering machine you can listen and pick up if you choose. Interesting idea, Redvers! There seem to be several good possibilities focussing around the answering machine services: the ability to select between recorded messages when rejecting a call springs to mind here. Sean, any chance of a wiki going up yet, so we can collate all the application ideas so far? I know you haven't got much to do at the moment... It would be useful to be able to sort the ideas by group: in this case, the Answerphone section. That would also help decide whether Gabriel's earlier idea could work - whether there are enough non-phone possibilities to make it possible to initially de-emphasise the phone application (i.e. "it's a GPS device that also does phone") When I get a minute, I'll collate the ideas so far and try to categorise them - anyone else been organised enough to do this yet? Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 08:58 +0100, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: > I see more and more people using it as phone. Personally I find the design > ridiculous (big, crufty software) and never quite understood the use of push > email anyway... Push email is important when you are relying on email for timely notifications. Of course, whether you should use smtp as a timely notification protocol is open to debate. As for killer app that appeals to mass market: Call screening. When someone calls you and they go to answering machine you can listen and pick up if you choose. I said answering machine to distinguish the voice messaging services on the cellphone verses those provided by the cellphone company. Regards, Red ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On 11/22/06 4:11 AM, "Stefan Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Another point you forgot here is that FIC have with OpenMoko a >>> platform for new devices with low engineering cost. Some new >>> hardware driver, a little bit GUI polish and that's it. No need to >>> complete redesign a phone every 6 months. >> Not sure I follow this. How does the OpenMoko give FIC any greater >> advantages than other manufacturers get with their own Linux-based phones? > > Really open your platform and you get lots of brilliant software > engineers for free. No need to pay yopur own devs for writing apps. > More apps makes it more interesting for users. > > As you can see I don't know the business plan from FIC. I only think > that I share the point of view with Sean on most of the parts. I'd back you up on that comment. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On 11/22/06 1:21 AM, "Ben F-W" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: >> Please understand that market questions are not something I can freely talk >> about at this point. We're just beginning a really long term plan. I >> wouldn't want to show our cards, too early ;-) >> > That's no problem, Sean: I quite understand. Equally, I hope you don't > mind my speculating in the meantime? Not at all. I really like the fact that we are having (somewhat at least) non-technical discussion, too. This is really exciting for me. >> I will say that OpenMoko is extremely strategic to our company. We are, and >> plan to continue, investing generously in this effort. >> >> Please don't think for a second this is a one time, wild gun-slinging event, >> from FIC. >> > That's good to hear - and I'm delighted to know that FIC considers it so > important to them. However, it is a new approach in an established > market, and therefore automatically entails a certain amount of risk. > FIC would not be acting rationally if it invested further in a product > that had failed to recoup costs, unless it showed a strong likelihood of > doing so in the future. My interest here is to look at what the > community can do to ensure this new approach makes its mark! I, too, share the same interests ;-) So please by all means, fire away. I'm all ears! -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On Tuesday 21 November 2006 18:11, Ben F-W wrote: > Interesting, Gabriel: I hadn't thought of that. In the same way, > Blackberry started off as an email device, and in most people's minds > that's all it is. I see more and more people using it as phone. Personally I find the design ridiculous (big, crufty software) and never quite understood the use of push email anyway... > As an email device, it's allowed to be a bit more > complicated and to require more of an effort to learn, because people > aren't mentally comparing it with the phone in their pocket. Exactly. > you're right: maybe the OpenMoko should enter the market as an entirely > new product category (some strong application of the GPS capability > seems appropriate), with the phone capability de-emphasised. In time, of > course, the phone capability could be played up more - and Blackberry is > indeed moving towards emphasising more normal phone functions. > It should be a PDA with GPS that just happens to have a GSM part maybe? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Salve Ben! just as a remark - I'm just a student, loving the OpenMoko/Neo1973 project... On Tue, 21 Nov 2006, Ben F-W wrote: > I agree that it's likely to become very popular with a limited market: > the developers. What I was trying to decide in my email was whether that > would be enough to guarantee future investment in the platform by FIC - Of course there will be no guarantee - but see again the slides of Sean presentation - or think how a mainboard and Laptop producer (FIC) could start with a business where the first companies give up (Siemens). Of course not with the traditional concepts... > and if not, how likely the product was to make it to a larger market. > Over time, of course, the developers are likely to make interesting > enough applications to attract the larger market automatically. However, > when developers are scratching a personal itch (as many of these will > be) the initial result tends not to be easy enough to use for the mass > market. Right, with vim, mutt and elinks; together with a touchscreen or external keyboard, we would not reach a mass market :) Just being so good as other phones (but with ogg/vorbis audio support) will be no help, as well. But when we concentrate on the core functions, to make them very usable - and add some new/fresh ideas like 8 ways to answer a phone (now, mailbox "sorry I'm busy call me in 15 minutes again) then will become the OpenMoko plattform interesting for the mass market and of course for FIC, too ;) Your point is very important to understood who will be the regular buyer beside developers... and what will be the core functions for this people. - phoning - organizer - email - entertainment (audio, video?) - navigation - mobil office - special software To build an instrument with two pianorows on both screen side to be able to play syntie "on the road" creating midi files, use them to have a note layout and print this notes will be nice, but will not help to create a mass market - so excuse my many ideas, especialy what would be possible with... ;) So a good question would be - What does I dislike with my mobile most - What does the the Neo GSM/GPRS+AGPS make possible that I can't do with a close source phone, nor with a Linux PDA? This could be accu management or call managment One silly thing of the Siemens phones... you can programm a date/time to switch of the phone automaticaly but not to switch on. Imagine you had to work in a nightshift. You want to sleep till 15h, must be reachable after 13h so what will you do? Switch of the phone? Or use a alarm clock at 13h switch it on manualy and sleep further? Every phone on the market does have some stupid restriction like that. Do you know any phone with an answering machine on it with the chance that the caller could use a calling meneu? IMHO just making phoning function better have a great potential :) > >well. And then it could be sold like a PDA, a Linux distribution, or > >any other PC. > > > You're right that over time, of course, the developers are likely to > make interesting enough applications to attract the larger market > automatically. Beleave it or not, my greatest motivation are to make the phoning functions better ;) > However, when developers are scratching a personal itch > (as many of these will be) the initial result tends not to be easy > enough to use for the mass market. Good warning - no that wouldn't be good > Perhaps one route to mass market would be the home interface setup - > which seems to be what the majority of suggestions have centred around > on this list. If Asterisk could be made simple enough to package into a > 'black box' that consumers don't have to configure (in the same way > MythTV is beginning to be), yes ;) asterisk cold be in the background, but its /etc/asterisk/extensions.conf should be hidden for the normal consumers > >Today, it could be less book more video tutorial, but for the mass > >market documentation would be *very* usefull, to educate the customers > >to use the power of the smartphone > >And make it easy with softwaresolutions *and* documention to understand, > >how it works and how they could use it. > > > Can you give an example of a complicated product that has managed to > reach the mass market by including a video tutorial? I can imagine that video tutorials are populare in the USA - not? I don't know but paper is expensive to print and to keep it up to date, a pdf on a cd-rom is not so handy and the Neo1973 should be usable without the help of internet or a PC. Reading ebooks could be unmotivating - so when there are some videoclips as tutorial on the device, the people could become familar with the device and it's software. For someone who never used AGPS or GPRS yet could it realy helpfull when an animation with a speaker explains what AGPS is and how it works. These clips mustn't be long but just showing how the systems could be used could realy h
