Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? that's only part of the story! the stuff mokomakefile gets you is already prepared to be build with bitbakecie -- which does not mean that everything builds at all (frinst vlc fails completely because it does not find libpostproc and no other package does provide it, the provided ortp.pc is useless sinbce all packages i tried to compile that needed that file failed to accept it). last not least i am not sure how up-to-date teh stuff mokomakefile checks out is -- i often get packages with numbers lower than the actual packages offered by the feeds, but that might be caused by my setup. since development means to alter existing code or creating your own you need far more -- to alter code you need at least something called a layer or so (need to dug into the issue further) because mokomakefile or bitbake or whatver stubbornly refuses to update modified files. creating your own code means you need to create your own bitbake receipt and so and so on. someone (with a rather scandinavic name) posted a link a while ago to his blog entry building ipk-packages w/o mokomakefile, which might be an easier way to develop own stuff, i did not try it (yet). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Jay Vaughan, 2008-08-13 22:47:28 +0200 : Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). great that its working for you, looking forward to future news of your .ipk URL's .. I'm more likely to provide *.deb, actually, but that's just because I'm an arrogant, smug, elitist Debian bastard (and not ashamed of it, either). Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. since where did i say that i couldn't follow the instructions on the wiki? You didn't, as far as I know. You did, however, complain loudly about how it's hard to keep up with them with regards to code changes and build environments. Which is what I was replying to: there's a make target to update all of that in the MokoMakefile, so it's one command to type. the issue is that there is no one stable, common, build system - or distribution channel - for developers to pop their stuff into, and with the moving targets of 'fso' vs. 'asu' vs 'om2007.2' vs 'underground' vs 'etc', its a bother. Choice in build systems isn't bad per se, as far as I know. And choice a definite bonus when it comes to distribution channels: I wouldn't want the official feeds to contain random contributed packages. I don't have a problem with people adding unofficial repositories and publishing the URLs, though. I do agree with the probably excessive multiplicity of targets, but my feeling is that this is going to settle down. OM2007.2 seems to have entered maintenance-only mode, I expect ASU/OM2008.8 to follow the same path, and I envision most of the momentum moving to FSO. As for the distribution system underneath, I'd be happy to see it migrate to Debian proper, since that would gain us the whole Debian repositories, build systems, tools and experience to build on, but maybe that's just me dreaming (although I'm quite impressed with the fact that the pkg-fso team has managed to prepare a working Debian-based image with FSO and Zhone in a few days). Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? please, do not assume i am a fool unless you would consider like countenance. Whoa, calm down. I do not assume you are a fool. I was just pointing out a discrepancy between your loud complaints about the barrier to entry, which looked scary to me, and how it's actually rather easy to setup a development environment. its not the hand-holding or the trick makefiles. its the dire lack of a dictator to rally around and form a federation .. and as a result, actually, building apps for the phone *with* the phone is turning out to be, frankly, a lot more workable - and lightweight - than over a year of mokomakefile groupthink right about now .. One more reason that NIH-syndrome is evil. Should have gone for Debian right at the start :-) (In order not to degenerate into a DSW, here are my own contributions so far: 1. a Python script to load and save contacts to files in 2007.2, and 2. a failed attempt at another script to switch from lock-and-suspend to lock-only when a call is active. You win hands down.) Roland. -- Roland Mas Why did the elephant cross the road? Because it was the chicken's day off. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
I'm more likely to provide *.deb, actually, but that's just because I'm an arrogant, smug, elitist Debian bastard (and not ashamed of it, either). yeah! that's the spirit! you don't have by chance a blog or so where you jot down your experiences with debian on fr? i think, i am going to try it this weekend. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
arne anka, 2008-08-14 14:24:58 +0200 : I'm more likely to provide *.deb, actually, but that's just because I'm an arrogant, smug, elitist Debian bastard (and not ashamed of it, either). yeah! that's the spirit! you don't have by chance a blog or so where you jot down your experiences with debian on fr? i think, i am going to try it this weekend. I have a blog, but I haven't started mentioning the FR on it yet. Nor have I started running Debian on the FR. OM2007.2 works for me, and I'm loathe to switch to something else until it stabilises a bit. Probably some time around FSO milestone 3. In the meantime, there is http://wiki.debian.org/pkg-fso. Roland. -- Roland Mas How does an octopus go into battle? Fully-armed. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:51 AM, Olivier Berger wrote: steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then try 2008.9 when it comes Please issue it when it's READY and not on 2008.9.9 at 09:09:09 just for the fun of it. Idea of Open Source projects is to release them before they're ready, to let community work on them as well. BR, Pawel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Please issue it when it's READY and not on 2008.9.9 at 09:09:09 just for the fun of it. Idea of Open Source projects is to release them before they're ready, to let community work on them as well. That would be fine in our case, *if* we could work on them concurrently, but there is so much cruft in dealing with the build environment - and too many forks in the details - that it makes it very unproductive to try to contribute. If we could get a list of people who are the *main* developers responsible for the contributions in the image, and if those people would then tell us other developers, reliably, how to catch up and keep up with them with regards to code changes and build environments, and if there were a few reliably sync'ed images produced that we 3rd party developers could verify our own local results against, this situation will change. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Jay Vaughan, 2008-08-13 14:42:23 +0200 : Idea of Open Source projects is to release them before they're ready, to let community work on them as well. That would be fine in our case, *if* we could work on them concurrently, but there is so much cruft in dealing with the build environment - and too many forks in the details - that it makes it very unproductive to try to contribute. Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? Roland. -- Roland Mas A man walks into a bar. Bang. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
The MokoMakefile is great. I've had it working for months. But I still don't know how I would contribute to OM. There's a wiki page about using the MokoMakefile to edit the existing packages. But I don't think that addresses actually contributing said changes back to OM. Maybe I'm just missing something. Now I have used the toolchain to make my own little app. But I don't think that's what Jay meant by contributing. -Steven On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Roland Mas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jay Vaughan, 2008-08-13 14:42:23 +0200 : Idea of Open Source projects is to release them before they're ready, to let community work on them as well. That would be fine in our case, *if* we could work on them concurrently, but there is so much cruft in dealing with the build environment - and too many forks in the details - that it makes it very unproductive to try to contribute. Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? Roland. -- Roland Mas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). great that its working for you, looking forward to future news of your .ipk URL's .. Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. since where did i say that i couldn't follow the instructions on the wiki? the issue is that there is no one stable, common, build system - or distribution channel - for developers to pop their stuff into, and with the moving targets of 'fso' vs. 'asu' vs 'om2007.2' vs 'underground' vs 'etc', its a bother. much more fun, right now, to hack code *on* the machine itself, put up with slow (actually not bad considering how much code gets written in between compiles) build times, but have a development environment that sits on a 512m SD card rather than .. 12 gigs, not counting the VM backups i've been doing over 12 months of tracking mokomakefile .. Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? please, do not assume i am a fool unless you would consider like countenance. its not the hand-holding or the trick makefiles. its the dire lack of a dictator to rally around and form a federation .. and as a result, actually, building apps for the phone *with* the phone is turning out to be, frankly, a lot more workable - and lightweight - than over a year of mokomakefile groupthink right about now .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Does Mokomakefile can build a 2008.8 more recent than the one release on August 08 of 2008 ? I setup the Makefile for OM_GIT_BRANCH := org.openmoko.asu.testing and run make openmoko-qtopia-x11-image Will I have the fake asu, like the one on the daily buildhost ? or will I have a 2008.8/ASU ? if not, how can I build myself a more recent 2008.8/ASU Regards Philippe On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh come on. After reading all your (and others') scary messages about that, I decided to give it a try. So I pointed my browser to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile. Half an hour later, I had a build in progress. Most of that half-hour was spent waiting for stuff to download, and part of the rest was due to my running the whole stuff in a particular isolated environment (cowbuilder chroot, for those who care) with its own characteristics (stuff runs as root, and I didn't have a home directory). great that its working for you, looking forward to future news of your .ipk URL's .. Of course, the build hasn't completed yet (I have a few *.ipk already, but the webpage mentions 5 hours on a computer that's rather faster than mine), but if pasting less than 15 commands straight from a web page is too high a barrier to entry for prospective developers, I doubt they'd be able to accomplish much even if it was a single command to run. since where did i say that i couldn't follow the instructions on the wiki? the issue is that there is no one stable, common, build system - or distribution channel - for developers to pop their stuff into, and with the moving targets of 'fso' vs. 'asu' vs 'om2007.2' vs 'underground' vs 'etc', its a bother. much more fun, right now, to hack code *on* the machine itself, put up with slow (actually not bad considering how much code gets written in between compiles) build times, but have a development environment that sits on a 512m SD card rather than .. 12 gigs, not counting the VM backups i've been doing over 12 months of tracking mokomakefile .. Half an hour. 15 commands to copy and paste. How much more hand-holding does a developer need? please, do not assume i am a fool unless you would consider like countenance. its not the hand-holding or the trick makefiles. its the dire lack of a dictator to rally around and form a federation .. and as a result, actually, building apps for the phone *with* the phone is turning out to be, frankly, a lot more workable - and lightweight - than over a year of mokomakefile groupthink right about now .. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2008.9 - Was Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
Feydreva wrote: Does Mokomakefile can build a 2008.8 more recent than the one release on August 08 of 2008 ? I setup the Makefile for OM_GIT_BRANCH := org.openmoko.asu.testing and run make openmoko-qtopia-x11-image Will I have the fake asu, like the one on the daily buildhost ? or will I have a 2008.8/ASU ? That should build the correct image from the correct branch to get you ASU updates. The only other variable is whether the Openmoko staff who built the ASU image used moko-autorev.inc or not. I truely hope they did not and instead relied on the pinned sane-srcrevs.inc file. I would really like to see a precise definition of how Openmoko staff build the images for release ... -- Rod ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
