Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Friday, August 23, 2013 06:50:11 PM Lukas Märdian wrote: Again, I'd like to out point to some website designs I did quite some time ago, maybe for others to evaluate and improve upon: GTA04 project page: http://slyon.de/gta04/index.old.php OpenPhoenux preorder/crowd-funding page: http://slyon.de/gta04/preorder.html Hi, imo they are very nice and more attractive then current gta04.org. Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 10:02, openm...@pulster.de wrote:
Its not out of Production, but production is stopped
Err..
What's the difference between out of Production and production is
stopped?
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:02, openm...@pulster.de wrote: Its not out of Production, but production is stopped Err.. What's the difference between out of Production and production is stopped? Compare with a train: stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light out of operation: is at the depot and nobody is caring about and knows if it is still operable If there is a better wording, please let me know and we can change it. -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 10:38, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham:
What's the difference between out of Production and production is
stopped?
Compare with a train:
stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04?
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
El día Friday, August 23, 2013 a las 10:10:58AM +, Bob Ham escribió: stopped? Concerning stop, can we please stop this SPAM? If you (Bob) have a proposal, how to continue, put it on the table and let's discuss this. Thanks matthias -- Matthias Apitz | /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: www.asciiribbon.org E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. -- bye, pabs ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:47:14AM +, Bob Ham wrote: On 2013-08-23 10:38, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham: What's the difference between out of Production and production is stopped? Compare with a train: stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 12:47 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:38, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 12:10 schrieb Bob Ham: What's the difference between out of Production and production is stopped? Compare with a train: stopped: is at the railway station and waiting for a green light I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? green light: close to 200 preorders or wishlist entries in the shop. It is like a train (without fixed schedule) waiting at the station for enough paying passengers. Not people just visiting or looking or discussing that the train should run on a different track. Yes, a vintage train is perhaps a good comparison with our GTA04. It costs a lot of money and volunteer work to keep it in operation at a very irregular schedule. And it is more for fun than for real transportation so that passengers pay twice or three times a ticket would cost for the same distance in a modern and more comfortable train. And having a fixed schedule. But 99% of the world population would never see a benefit in riding a vintage train to go from A to B, e.g. for going to daily work. Which is similar to our situation that 99,99% of the world population doesn't see a benefit or an impulse to buy a 100% open device or a community built hardware or an Überphone (which is what the Ubuntu Edge campaign has clearly demonstrated). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the
GTA04?
That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be
implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money
being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going
to cause the green light to go on?
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. How would you change the mindset of people without brain-washing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham:
On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the
GTA04?
That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to
be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money
being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's
going to cause the green light to go on?
People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is
too expensive.
What is going to cause people to decide that?
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 13:45:20 + Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. We all know * there is no customer * there is no money * there is no campaign * there is no prospect * there is no website (that could attract anybody) * people on this list gave up their dream or just don't care May the last point be controversial, one has to admit that the below following thoughts are neither hard to obtain nor new. What is going to cause people to decide that? The well meaning father interrogating it's children. I don't take it as trolling, as this community is lacking exactly that kind of straight thinking. So I try to answer. First one could ask, how many people are interested in such a phone? According to the just failed campaign a lot. Second also money was not their problem, but the ridiculous threshold. Third our community watched them failing without even trying to raise awareness for our community phone. Fourth there is no nice advertising I could forward to people in my family (or anybody with money). It's just all made by and for nerds. Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack something which will hopefully be better than what we have. I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about anonymity. Kardan -- Kardan kar...@riseup.net Encrypt your email: http://gnupg.org/documentation Public GPG key 9D6108AE58C06558 at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net fpr: F72F C4D9 6A52 16A1 E7C9 AE94 9D61 08AE 58C0 6558 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? I have mixed feeling about basing our media presence on Openmoko project. While we know that Openmoko did amazing job pioneering with freeing mobile phones, and personally I'm still big fan of the project and I like how OpenPhoenux goes back to its roots, general public just associates it with failure (provided that they know what Openmoko is at the first place). We know (to some extend) what was the reason (or reasons) of Openmoko failure, they don't. They only got clear message: open/free phone is utopia, Openmoko tried it and failed, we have to go for something that's free enough and for many, Android, Ubuntu or Firefox OS phones are free enough. Especially when you add price into the account - it makes them even more enough. People should know the difference. People should know that free phone *is* possible. It may not be as free as RMS would like it to be, but seeing how many people consider Android good enough, we're still at better position. We just have to tell people what's the difference, and do that in a way even non-techie would understand (or just give him/her an impression of understanding ;)). They should be also aware why price is so high and how can it be lowered. I don't think there is some universal source we may refer people to and I'm tired of everyone repeating the same questions again and again when I mention GTA04 in slashdot comments or anywhere else. If they are not aware what GTA04 can give them, they never won't pay for it when there's such a difference in price. Well, I know it's easy to tell we should do this, we should do that and it's harder to actually start doing that, but I hope I'll be able to show you something soon. It's high time to be useful to this community once again! :) -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos http://dosowisko.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Hi What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? branding. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters What should be the message of such posters? nobody on this list can answer that. we're not *that* type of people. you need input from outside. $2c, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 um 17:05 schrieb kardan: On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 13:45:20 + Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. We all know * there is no customer * there is no money * there is no campaign * there is no prospect * there is no website (that could attract anybody) * people on this list gave up their dream or just don't care May the last point be controversial, one has to admit that the below following thoughts are neither hard to obtain nor new. What is going to cause people to decide that? The well meaning father interrogating it's children. I don't take it as trolling, as this community is lacking exactly that kind of straight thinking. So I try to answer. First one could ask, how many people are interested in such a phone? According to the just failed campaign a lot. I would consider 20k backers of the Ubuntu Edge not as a lot. Please calculate what 300 million smartphones (mostly iOS and Android) sold per year means to be sold per hour. That is a lot. And, the Ubuntu Edge did not have the same targets as anyone of us has. Rather, they did not even care much about openness and freedom. Their key goal is about convergence between computer and smartphone and to catch attention by Über-features. Second also money was not their problem, but the ridiculous threshold. Which threshold? The 32 million USD? Well, they have to solve the same issue that we have: building a lower number of units (which a lower threshold would imply) increases component and production cost. I.e. if they had set the limit at 12 Mio they would have had to increase the price to 795 USD. At 795 USD they would have reached 8 Mio only. So they would have had to set the price at 895 USD. etc. I don't think the threshold was just some arbitrary value. It was based on the economics inside the production process. Third our community watched them failing without even trying to raise awareness for our community phone. Well, what could we have done? How could we have changed their campain? No, I think we can only learn from the outcome of their campaign, which we are currently discussion if I remember the starting point correctly... Fourth there is no nice advertising I could forward to people in my family (or anybody with money). It's just all made by and for nerds. Because it is not a device for the general public, but nerds. You can't advertize meat to a vegetarian. Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack something which will hopefully be better than what we have. I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about anonymity. What should be the message of such posters? -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
Am 23.08.2013 17:05, schrieb kardan: Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack something which will hopefully be better than what we have. I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about anonymity. Again, I'd like to out point to some website designs I did quite some time ago, maybe for others to evaluate and improve upon: GTA04 project page: http://slyon.de/gta04/index.old.php OpenPhoenux preorder/crowd-funding page: http://slyon.de/gta04/preorder.html Regards, Lukas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
could everybody please stop answering without checking and fixing the damn subject?! THANKS! /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham:
On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham:
On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04?
That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be
implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being
available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to
cause the green light to go on?
People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is
too expensive.
What is going to cause people to decide that?
What do you think the reason is?
I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that
decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said
you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you
waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide
to spend money on the GTA04?
I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light
waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me.
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Fri 23 August 2013 22:45:05 Bob Ham wrote: I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide to spend money on the GTA04? I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me. So WHAT? What's your point??? Waiting is a sustainable and valid state. When you can't see any reason then why do you insist in any sort of answer from somebody else? I don't think we owe you something. Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even better - real actions that would help? Instead you perpetuate this moot arguing about if there's sth that can be done or if it's reasonable or even allowable to *wait* for 200 preorders, instead of simply declaring the whole thing out of production or discontinued as you seem to insist it is. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On the Road --- hns Am 23.08.2013 um 22:45 schrieb Bob Ham r...@settrans.net: On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide to spend money on the GTA04? I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me. Why are you still a member of this community and participating in this discussion? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
