Re: mailing list management
On Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 12:19:55AM +0100, thus spake Giles Jones: It's only affecting GMail messages. It's mostly Gmail messages that are being affected, but not entirely. A recent non-Gmail message that was duplicated was sent by mokoNinja [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 8/16 with: Subject: Re: Fingerscroll, foofone and more from people.openmoko.org! Message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] There have been others in the past too; I've noticed them from starband.net, cnlohr.com, and axialys.net. If you want more details, see the messages I've sent to this list such as Duplicate message troubleshooting on 7/24. Plus that RFC you quoted says recommended 30 minute retry but GMail is retrying every 8 minutes. The RFC says: In general, the retry interval SHOULD be at least 30 minutes; however, more sophisticated and variable strategies will be beneficial when the SMTP client can determine the reason for non-delivery. (Source: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2821.html section 4.5.4.1) When I look at the messages I've seen duplicated from Gmail, the first retry is usually after 8-10 minutes but then it backs off to about 20-30 minutes for a message or two, then 1 hour or longer for the rest. Maybe they're trying a more sophisticated and variable strategy. Marco ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Dear Hank, On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 06:50:03AM -0400, hank williams wrote: While I agree with your argument that no header is the standard for FOSS, this is not the case for the reply to issue, which you did not address. As I said earlier, the Apache groups (perhaps the largest FOSS umbrella) for example, and many (most?) others do not have the default reply-to going to the individual. Part of the reason for this is that it is bad user interface for the default behavior to be one that is used perhaps 1% of the time. Most people generally want to reply to group. Your default should be the most commonly accessed option which is why your design decision on this matter is not only not standard, but is, I believe, the minority design, even in the FOSS community. I'm not opposed to changing the reply-to for community, if you want that. In fact, I have now changed it. For all other lists I'm a bit less inclined to do it, but would be willing to change if there were many supporters of such a change. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Harald, While I agree with your argument that no header is the standard for FOSS, this is not the case for the reply to issue, which you did not address. As I said earlier, the Apache groups (perhaps the largest FOSS umbrella) for example, and many (most?) others do not have the default reply-to going to the individual. Part of the reason for this is that it is bad user interface for the default behavior to be one that is used perhaps 1% of the time. Most people generally want to reply to group. Your default should be the most commonly accessed option which is why your design decision on this matter is not only not standard, but is, I believe, the minority design, even in the FOSS community. Regards, Hank On 8/19/07, Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! For the various reasons cited in the many mails on this subject, there is a general concensus in the FOSS community and among maybe the hacking community in general _not_ to add subject prefixes. Filtering can be done on List-ID header (or with other commonly-used list software on Mailing-List or even the Sender-header) The vast majority of all FOSS-related mailing lists that I've ever seen follow this policy. We see no reason why we should deviate from that. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On Tue, 2007-08-21 at 19:31 +0800, Harald Welte wrote: Dear Hank, On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 06:50:03AM -0400, hank williams wrote: While I agree with your argument that no header is the standard for FOSS, this is not the case for the reply to issue, which you did not address. As I said earlier, the Apache groups (perhaps the largest FOSS umbrella) for example, and many (most?) others do not have the default reply-to going to the individual. Part of the reason for this is that it is bad user interface for the default behavior to be one that is used perhaps 1% of the time. Most people generally want to reply to group. Your default should be the most commonly accessed option which is why your design decision on this matter is not only not standard, but is, I believe, the minority design, even in the FOSS community. I'm not opposed to changing the reply-to for community, if you want that. In fact, I have now changed it. For all other lists I'm a bit less inclined to do it, but would be willing to change if there were many supporters of such a change. Hello, how do i now answer only to the poster ? (only using one button/shortcut press) as before i could use: ctrl+l = reply to list ctrl+r = reply to poster and now both reply to the list... and no! i _dont_ want to start a flamewar! just wanted to ask if someone knows how to reply only the poster with one click in evolution (or another linux email client, so i could change) mfg. andre ps. on a side note, when i do reply all it also sends only to list. i newer did/do this, but was just wondering is it normal or just my client ? (as with my logic it should answer to the real sender and the list, no?) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 07:31:54PM +0800, thus spake Harald Welte: Dear Hank, On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 06:50:03AM -0400, hank williams wrote: While I agree with your argument that no header is the standard for FOSS, this is not the case for the reply to issue, which you did not address. As I said earlier, the Apache groups (perhaps the largest FOSS umbrella) for example, and many (most?) others do not have the default reply-to going to the individual. Part of the reason for this is that it is bad user interface for the default behavior to be one that is used perhaps 1% of the time. Most people generally want to reply to group. Your default should be the most commonly accessed option which is why your design decision on this matter is not only not standard, but is, I believe, the minority design, even in the FOSS community. I'm not opposed to changing the reply-to for community, if you want that. In fact, I have now changed it. *sigh* Now this is another list I have to be very careful on to be sure I don't send something to the list that I intended to go only to one person. I disagree with Hank that default behavior is the issue here. It's not a matter of the default for one action; there are two separate actions to take, either reply to the sender or reply to the list. These have two separate buttons/keys in any mail program. You choose which one to use based on the behavior you want. Neither one should be easier or more difficult than the other. In Gmail, I press 'r' when I want to reply to the sender and 'a' when I want to reply to all/list; in mutt I press 'r' to reply to sender and 'L' to reply to list. Now 'a' or 'L' still gets me the list behavior but 'r' is broken. In fact, in Gmail, there's now no way to reply to the sender other than copying and pasting the email address into the To: field. (I consider this a bug in Gmail, but still, it'll be an issue for a lot of people on this list.) Some mailers have special features for lists. Some mailers automatically use Reply-To and some ask you. But every mailer has a Reply to All feature that will reply to the list. Why break the normal behavior of Reply in most mail programs in order to duplicate a feature that all mail programs already have? *sigh* Marco ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On Wednesday 22 August 2007 21:19, Andre Schmidt wrote: On Tue, 2007-08-21 at 19:31 +0800, Harald Welte wrote: I'm not opposed to changing the reply-to for community, if you want that. In fact, I have now changed it. For all other lists I'm a bit less inclined to do it, but would be willing to change if there were many supporters of such a change. Hello, how do i now answer only to the poster ? (only using one button/shortcut press) as before i could use: ctrl+l = reply to list ctrl+r = reply to poster and now both reply to the list... KMail seems to understand this properly, this email provides me several options: R: Reply (goes to list) A: Reply to All (goes to list and to you) Shift-A: Reply to author (goes to you) L: Reply to list (goes to the list again) Using L and Shift-A on a proper mailing list message will give you the same result in KMail regardless of the configuration of the mailinglist... AVee ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Nick Johnson wrote: On 8/16/07, Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 16 Aug 2007, at 00:07, Nick Johnson wrote: The list server is clearly the issue here, failing to accept messages in a timely fashion. It's only affecting GMail messages. I believe people with providers other than gmail (and not just those using google apps, like myself) have also reported issues. GMail is just less patient than most - it's still only an issue because the list server is taking a long time to respond. How long _should_ a mail server wait for a reply? Forever? Case in point - I just got a duplicate of your message. Maybe openmoko needs a new, faster mailserver? More mailserver bandwidth? Or how about a duplicate message filter at the list level? I've gotten at least 100 duplicates today, this is getting really old. I have a filter for removing duplicates in thunderbird, but it leaves the newest duplicate, so I'm having to 'mark as read' the same messages over and over. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Karsten Ensinger wrote: Maybe you should switch to this (or improve your configuration): https://removedupes.mozdev.org/ I use this extension to thunderbird with success. The suggestion of the extension seems to contain some smart algorithms. The already read messages are preselected for keep and the new ones get deleted. Yes, much better than the regular remove duplicates extension. Thanks for the tip. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
i hate this idea of adding tags to the subject: line. there is nothing wrong with checking 'any header' for community@lists.openmoko.org and if its found, put it in its own folder. If you can search for a [subjectag], you can search for an email address: thus, [subjecttag] is redundant, unnecessary, and clutters the subject information, which ought to be better used as it is .. j. On Aug 14, 2007, at 8:48 PM, Casey Harkins wrote: Dean Collins wrote: I do run filtering in Outlook - but I run it on subject - less processor intensive. How is filtering on subject less processor intensive than using mailing list headers? And thanks Casey - I also subscribe to about 5 or 6 other lists and they all have subject prefixes as well (and much larger more frequent lists than openmoko) I also subscribe to a large number of other lists and only 2 of the 20 or so have subject prefixes (one of them is the openmoko announce list). It's a little thing but it's silly not to get this fixed sooner rather than later - especially as in the very near time frame I imagine that FIC will need to have a number of different lists (newbies, experts, apps, developers, commercial) etc I disagree that there is anything to be fixed. Munging the subject line or reply to fields would be breaking things rather than fixing them. There are a number of ways to distinguish mailing list messages from each other without munging the subject line. I don't want to start a holy war on this as I've seen many in the past. However, I've yet to see a convincing argument that justifies the use of subject munging and numerous convincing arguments that it is a bad thing a prone to breaking. If it is the will of the community, I'll deal with it. -casey ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Hello, On 8/15/07, Allan Savolainen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And another 'pls don't change it'. One would think that in this day Here is another voice from the silent majority - please do NOT change the way the list is set up. As for the reply to issue - either live with the way your mail client do it (as I do with GMail), or change to a mail client that has proper support (ie reply to list). -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 10:16 +0200, Ulrik Rasmussen wrote: Until my mail client gives me a reply to list ONLY command, I vote for changing reply-to to BE THE LIST. My email client has a reply to list. I use KMail. mine (evolution) too. i just hit ctrl+l to answer to list... and all lists that i have subscribed are also nicely moved to their folders (made with Create filter on mailing list) so, to me there is (and newer was) no need to change how the various mailing list works... maybe file a feature request for your email client ? or use an (open source) email client that supports these standard? functions ? ... why should all mailing lists change their standard? behaviour only cause some minority? (poll?) of email clients dont support these functions ? sorry, i didnt want to flame. i just got nerved by so much mails about this useless discussion... .andre ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On Wednesday 15 August 2007 12:48, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: Hello, On 8/15/07, Allan Savolainen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And another 'pls don't change it'. One would think that in this day Here is another voice from the silent majority - please do NOT change the way the list is set up. here's one more vote for keeping things the way they are... thanks ray ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
... why should all mailing lists change their standard? behaviour only cause some minority? (poll?) of email clients dont support these functions ? I will no longer discuss the merits of this issue, but I feel obliged to address two factually inaccurate statements. 1. Gmail is not a minority mail client. It may be closer to a majority client. 2. Most mail lists and mail list system do reply to list when hitting reply, not individuals. Specifically Yahoo Groups by far the largest such system on the net, but also super techie groups like apache.org's lists work this way. I am on the apache hadoop, lucene, and the axis list and I suspect all the apache lists work this way though I honestly haven't had time to try every single one. In any case clearly just based on yahoo and apache, you cannot say that reply to individual as a default is standard. I am on a wide range of lists that include social (meetup.com) Adobe flash/flex/video server development, web services, 3D technologies, linux tools related, etc. This is the *only* list which I am on which replies to individuals. What I do see is that the *hardcore* linux geeks (no offense intended) prefer this. Perhaps it is a badge of honor. But it is, just to be clear, not standard except perhaps in the most techie linux-internals-focused circles. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On 15 Aug 2007, at 20:39, Dean Collins wrote: Maybe not but at least we know not to resend the same email 20 times….. over and over……and over….and over….. That's an ongoing problem with GMail and this list. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: mailing list management
So is that one voteor twoor three.(or however many more times your email client is going to send the same message over and over). :) Regards, Dean Collins Cognation Pty Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-212-203-4357 Ph +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen Sent: Wednesday, 15 August 2007 2:49 PM To: OpenMoko Subject: Re: mailing list management Hello, On 8/15/07, Allan Savolainen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And another 'pls don't change it'. One would think that in this day Here is another voice from the silent majority - please do NOT change the way the list is set up. As for the reply to issue - either live with the way your mail client do it (as I do with GMail), or change to a mail client that has proper support (ie reply to list). -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On 8/16/07, Dean Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So is that one voteor twoor three.(or however many more times your email client is going to send the same message over and over). Wasn't it established that the problem was with the list server taking ages to send an OK response to messages, and the gmail (and some other) servers simply giving up? Seems like more of an issue with the list than with the client. -Nick Johnson ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On 15 Aug 2007, at 23:30, Nick Johnson wrote: Wasn't it established that the problem was with the list server taking ages to send an OK response to messages, and the gmail (and some other) servers simply giving up? Seems like more of an issue with the list than with the client. That maybe so, but it's dumb for it to keep sending it. It should give up after 1 or more attempts and mail the sender to say it failed to deliver. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On 8/16/07, Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 15 Aug 2007, at 23:30, Nick Johnson wrote: Wasn't it established that the problem was with the list server taking ages to send an OK response to messages, and the gmail (and some other) servers simply giving up? Seems like more of an issue with the list than with the client. That maybe so, but it's dumb for it to keep sending it. It should give up after 1 or more attempts and mail the sender to say it failed to deliver. Not so. Transient failures of mail servers are common; if giving up after 1 or 2 attempts was common, a lot more mail would be returned 'undeliverable'. RFC 2821 says in section 4.5.4.1 (Sending Strategy): The sender MUST delay retrying a particular destination after one attempt has failed. In general, the retry interval SHOULD be at least 30 minutes; however, more sophisticated and variable strategies will be beneficial when the SMTP client can determine the reason for non-delivery. Retries continue until the message is transmitted or the sender gives up; the give-up time generally needs to be at least 4-5 days. The parameters to the retry algorithm MUST be configurable. The list server is clearly the issue here, failing to accept messages in a timely fashion. -Nick Johnson ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On 16 Aug 2007, at 00:07, Nick Johnson wrote: The list server is clearly the issue here, failing to accept messages in a timely fashion. It's only affecting GMail messages. Plus that RFC you quoted says recommended 30 minute retry but GMail is retrying every 8 minutes. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
hank williams wrote: I think that this is not useful at all. Actually it would be quite useful. I'm do not thinking so.It will waste valuable space in Subject column of message list with STUPID and REDUNDANT tags which carry no useful info at all and just wasting space in Subject column of messages list, leaving less space for really useful subject lines.This will not make things better I guess. Without such a header I am unable to *visually* distinguish between this Why do you need to do this, at all? You can just set up rules to move messages on arrival into separate folders (based on Sender field content for example).Quite easy rules and this works perfectly.So I'm for example have this mailing list in one separate folder.And another lists in another folders.Simple and works, offloading my brain to more interesting tasks than visual distinguishing of mail messages from mailing lists.I'm using Thunderbird but I guess almost any full-featured e-mail program can do this for you, freeing your brain for more interesting things than sorting e-mail by your own eyes.Crafting such simple rules takes some 5 minutes and then reduces load on brain greatly so you do not need to spend yor time on visual distinguishing at all.Let's machine to work and humans to think.It is a bad idea to execute machine work (like sorting dozens of messages by criteria) if you're human. and other mailing lists or mail. Filters are useful for organizing, but I personally prefer to see my whole inbox and to view and scan all inbound content. Imho mail list is rather resembles newsgroups than e-mail so it is strange to have all things in common place - this will render your inbox into huge Junk e-mail folder :).Of course nobody can forbid you to do machine work like sorting mail by criteria on your own but I guess there is lots of more interesting things to do :).And well, yes, I did located all mail lists related folders as subfolders of Inbox folder.So, I can still scan through all incoming mail if I really need this.Let's admit that automatic move of mail lists to other folders makes a lots easier to find and handle usual (user-to-user) messages.Otherwise it rather looks like dealing with huge Junk email folder :D Of course the other thing I always complain about is that this is the only mailing list I am on (out of 10) for which (at least in gmail) replies to a thread go to the individual and not the list unless I say reply to all Let's agree here, this is a bit annoying thing.I did not seen other lists with such strange behavior.Imho if I'm clicking Reply, default action should be reply to list and not to a specific user.And even if you'll Reply to all this causes To to contain author of message and CC to contain list.What is the clue to bother author with personal (user-to-user) message?If author needs reply, (s)he is reading mailing list as well, isn't it? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On 8/16/07, Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 16 Aug 2007, at 00:07, Nick Johnson wrote: The list server is clearly the issue here, failing to accept messages in a timely fashion. It's only affecting GMail messages. I believe people with providers other than gmail (and not just those using google apps, like myself) have also reported issues. GMail is just less patient than most - it's still only an issue because the list server is taking a long time to respond. How long _should_ a mail server wait for a reply? Forever? Saying that it must be GMail's fault because it mainly affects GMail messages is akin to blaming a user when a vending machine swallows their change - it didn't swallow anyone else's, so it must be their fault, right? Plus that RFC you quoted says recommended 30 minute retry but GMail is retrying every 8 minutes. Okay, in that respect Google is bucking the reccommendations - it should try less frequently. It _shouldn't_ give up after a message or two, though. -Nick Johnson ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
El mar, 14-08-2007 a las 11:46 -0400, Dean Collins escribió: Now that the product is launched and you have (or maybe not) some breathing space can we finally get this mailing list configured properly. At the front of each mailing should be a subject pre-fix that says the title of the mailing list e.g.“ [OpenMoko-Community]: “mailing list management”” I think that this is not useful at all. If you want to do some filtering in your mail client, there are some headers in every mail from maillist that would be useful: Precedence: list List-Id: List for OpenMoko community discussion community.lists.openmoko.org -- Santiago Crespo signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje está firmada digitalmente ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
hank williams wrote: I think that this is not useful at all. Actually it would be quite useful. Without such a header I am unable to *visually* distinguish between this and other mailing lists or mail. Filters are useful for organizing, but I personally prefer to see my whole inbox and to view and scan all inbound content. Not having such a header is the equivalent of not having a from column in my mailing lists. Most mailing lists do this properly. Munging the subject line is a bad idea. http://www.l33tskillz.org/writing/tagging-harmful/ Of course the other thing I always complain about is that this is the only mailing list I am on (out of 10) for which (at least in gmail) replies to a thread go to the individual and not the list unless I say reply to all - which I often forget because this list is the oddball. There have been discussions about this before where others have said it shouldnt work the way I suggest or that gmail is broken, but the bottom line is that of all the mailing lists I am on, gmail (for me) gets it right on everything but this one. Munging the reply-to is a bad idea. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -casey ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: mailing list management
I do run filtering in Outlook - but I run it on subject - less processor intensive. And thanks Casey - I also subscribe to about 5 or 6 other lists and they all have subject prefixes as well (and much larger more frequent lists than openmoko) It's a little thing but it's silly not to get this fixed sooner rather than later - especially as in the very near time frame I imagine that FIC will need to have a number of different lists (newbies, experts, apps, developers, commercial) etc Regards, Dean Collins Cognation Pty Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-212-203-4357 Ph +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Santiago Crespo Sent: Tuesday, 14 August 2007 12:10 PM To: OpenMoko Subject: Re: mailing list management El mar, 14-08-2007 a las 11:46 -0400, Dean Collins escribió: Now that the product is launched and you have (or maybe not) some breathing space can we finally get this mailing list configured properly. At the front of each mailing should be a subject pre-fix that says the title of the mailing list e.g. [OpenMoko-Community]: mailing list management I think that this is not useful at all. If you want to do some filtering in your mail client, there are some headers in every mail from maillist that would be useful: Precedence: list List-Id: List for OpenMoko community discussion community.lists.openmoko.org -- Santiago Crespo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On 8/14/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that this is not useful at all. Actually it would be quite useful. +1 for tagging the subject. -- GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Chris Kuethe wrote: On 8/14/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that this is not useful at all. Actually it would be quite useful. +1 for tagging the subject. I second that. How about [om-community]-$subject ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Dean Collins wrote: I do run filtering in Outlook - but I run it on subject - less processor intensive. How is filtering on subject less processor intensive than using mailing list headers? And thanks Casey - I also subscribe to about 5 or 6 other lists and they all have subject prefixes as well (and much larger more frequent lists than openmoko) I also subscribe to a large number of other lists and only 2 of the 20 or so have subject prefixes (one of them is the openmoko announce list). It's a little thing but it's silly not to get this fixed sooner rather than later - especially as in the very near time frame I imagine that FIC will need to have a number of different lists (newbies, experts, apps, developers, commercial) etc I disagree that there is anything to be fixed. Munging the subject line or reply to fields would be breaking things rather than fixing them. There are a number of ways to distinguish mailing list messages from each other without munging the subject line. I don't want to start a holy war on this as I've seen many in the past. However, I've yet to see a convincing argument that justifies the use of subject munging and numerous convincing arguments that it is a bad thing a prone to breaking. If it is the will of the community, I'll deal with it. -casey ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Well this is probably the wrong place for a whole-community poll about this topic, but let me say that if the majority here really wants subject tagging, than please put the tag at the end of the subject! I use pager notification for my e-mails and text paging in Germany has a very limited message length. Filling half of it with some non informative tag would make the whole thing impractical. Also putting a tag on the beginning of the subject makes reading through a list (like in my mail client) of a high number of messages very very inefficient, since the important information isn't where my brain expects it to be (at the beginning!). I personally cannot see any benefit from tagging the subject, but that's probably up to everyone's own preferences in their way of mail handling. -- Daniel Mewes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Phone: 0800 DAMEWES (3263937; from inside Germany, I call back) Mobile: +49 (0) 160 8577603 Pager: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On 14 Aug 2007, at 21:35, Dean Collins wrote: Lol - yep shortly followed by the human race all moving back to wearing skins and living in rock caves. Doing nothing as a 'reason' is about as dumb as you can get. They have the discussions all the time on the Linux Kernel list, people asking why don't we use C++, why don't we tag emails etc.. Are you saying that list is stone age? it's not, it's just people liking how things are and seeing it work without some trendy new idea. I filter this list perfectly fine without tags. Tags just let you give your email the one over and see if you have any personal mail. See the Linux kernel mail list faq for the subject line mod :) http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/docs/lkml/#s3-19 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Learn to use Gmail. Also it's relevant for everything where you can only see the first X letters of a topic in your list of emails. Like pretty much every mail client and webmail interface out there. So adding the tags to the end of the subject line is a pretty good idea which I could live with while adding them to the front would really annoy me. On 8/14/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oops again. That reply to thing is a bitch. -- Forwarded message -- From: hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Aug 14, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: mailing list management To: Daniel Mewes [EMAIL PROTECTED] I use pager notification for my e-mails and text paging in Germany has a very limited message length. Wow. now thats a great target design platform for a mailing list. lol. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Most good mail filters, such as sieve (http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/sieve/index.html) provide a _multitude_ of ways to filter messages. Including by headers or recipients (or a combination, etc). I highly recommend sieve if you have means to run a mail server, or are already are. cheers -scott Ortwin Regel wrote: Learn to use Gmail. Also it's relevant for everything where you can only see the first X letters of a topic in your list of emails. Like pretty much every mail client and webmail interface out there. So adding the tags to the end of the subject line is a pretty good idea which I could live with while adding them to the front would really annoy me. On 8/14/07, *hank williams* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oops again. That reply to thing is a bitch. -- Forwarded message -- From: *hank williams* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Aug 14, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: mailing list management To: Daniel Mewes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I use pager notification for my e-mails and text paging in Germany has a very limited message length. Wow. now thats a great target design platform for a mailing list. lol. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
On 15.8.2007, at 0.35, Christian Tschabuschnig wrote: I am a member of the 'silent majority' - this is my first post - and, yes, please leave it as it is. And another 'pls don't change it'. One would think that in this day and age all mail clients are able to filter, tag, color and/or categorize emails so that everybody should be able to view their emails as they please, and if your current email program doesn't support these things, write a feature request to the developers, they will be happy to add new cool features (like show text '[OpenMoko- Community]' in subject lines where any recipient is community@lists.openmoko.org or something like that) to their apps. But what I'm wondering most about this topic is: it was discussed several times on half of the mailing-lists I'm subscribed to, but the problem was never solved. But I think that should be easy. Just make it user-configurable. Is it so hard to write that piece of code and convince the mailman-developers to include into the distribution? If that would happen, I would never ever see this discussion again. That would be a relief. Good idea, just need to make sure that when user X sends email with subject '[OpenMoko-Community] should be [OM-C]' mailman might have trouble delivering the correct subject line to everybody, depending on sender and reciever the subject lines might have [OpenMoko- Community] twice, or not at all. Best feature would be a Eliza bot in mailman that automagically goes through this discussion without bothering the subscribers to the list :) - Allan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: mailing list management
Best feature would be a Eliza bot in mailman that automagically goes through this discussion without bothering the subscribers to the list :) Now that's the best contribution to this whole discussion. Since no 12 developers will ever agree on subject line munging, top/bottom posting, or any other bikeshed issue, a bot to redirect such discussions offline and keep the poster(s) amused would be a Good Thing. Extra points +42 if it can fool the participants into thinking that their discussion is being foisted upon the entire list, but not actually do so. Failing that, we'll all have to put mailing list management in our filter lists :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
