Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Marcus Bauer wrote: gpsd works well and gypsy is not network capable. Simply using your Neo's GPS from your Laptop does not work. And especially for an application like tangoGPS it is inherently broken: every nav-application wants to have the raw NMEA and not some preprocessed stuff and the concept to only be notified for certain events is nonsense because any nav-app wants to be notified about every data coming in. This concept just sucks CPU time. Hello, I am beginning to invest my time in the openmoko world. I just ordered one and will start working on it next month probably. I am mostly interested in the GPS area. I am *very* excited by the prospects :-) Your post made me doing some research about gpsd. In my opinion, the concept of gpsd is nice for desktop application but I am truly wondering why this is relevant for a handheld device where only one app is on screen most of the time. I am also not very keen on NMEA, very bad protocol if you ask me. The only sane and powerful solution is to read and decode the ublox binary format. I happen to know quite a bit about that, maybe I'll contribute a decoder... By the way, I didn't know about Tango GPS until now, it looks nice for what I read on your web site. Once I come back from holydays and I receive my Gta2, I'll try it. Maybe I'll contribute, who knows :-) I am involved in LyX development too (www.lyx.org) so maybe I'll port that too :-) But just my 2c. ;-) Your two cents was worth enough to trigger my motivation :-) Cheers, Abdel. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi all Finally I am near to the finish line, I think I missed linux world, but in the end I made something that could be useful for someone: I opened a project in launchpad: http://launchpad.net/ogino-gtk Until now this program is available only on .deb package, so to use it you need Debian/Ubuntu. I am waiting for my FR ( I know Pulter shipped me today :) to build the IPK version. If you want feel free to try it. The two package can be found on: http://rubino.dyndns.org/ Until now there is only a known bug: when you change the application language you need to close and to open another time the application. I will try to fix this bug as soon as possible I actually need translator for it. There are around 50 lines to be translated (I suggest to use PoEdit). Who want to join please contact me. Actually it is translated in 3 language: English, Italian, Romanian. Who know another language and want to help me please contact me. Who has some suggestion or found some bugs please reply to this email or contact direct to me. Best regards Michele Renda steve wrote: Of course!!! Every toolkit is allowed. The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michele Renda Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 9:59 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIoaBhSIAU/I6SkT0RAo9bAJ9LBrT0t/CbFewZj3BLjX0bmVhIpgCfd7S3 RGZMTUsbSIskyJWNTI+Vv6E= =W8XV -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 12:38:07PM +0300, Mikko Rauhala wrote: ti, 2008-07-29 kello 20:53 +0200, Marcus Bauer kirjoitti: I'm a huge Openstreetmap fan but until OSM is ready for routing this will take at least five more years, probably ten. That's probably true _if you drive a car_ (though even for that it can be a handy help, especially in areas that don't happen to have lots of turn restrictions, though you of course don't want to just blindly drive listening to it anyway). Us others want navigation too and are considerably less hampered by OSM's current lackings. 'course, there are other projects than TangoGPS, but it seems otherwise nice so one would like it to include this as well. As long as I'm not coding it, it's not my call, of course :] PS: Kudos for your work and all, but with all your hyperbole, jumping to conclusions, accusations of lying and stuff, you might want to take a step back for a breather if you want, you know, people to bother to listen to you instead of just wanting to rant wildly. I have a really dumb question: What is the point of having GPS anyway? I don't travel much, so perhaps that's why I just don't get it. If I'm navigating around a strange city, though, a hardcopy map is plenty good. I spend most of my time walking or taking public transport, within a very short radius, in an area I already know very well. I'm just not getting what's cool or exciting about GPS. -ken ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
If you don't need a GPS that's great but I find them really useful. Yes, maps and a compasses are really useful but they are quite bulky and you need the right one. Thanks to the FreeRunner I've now got localised, street level maps for a large part of the work (OSM[0]) in my pocket. In addition to this I don't even have to work out where I am and what direction I am moving in. I'm also looking for a mount for my bicycle handlebars so I'll have a full bike computer with me when I'm riding - speed, direction, time and distance will all be displayed for me along with the map. If I think of anything else I want to hand I could either implement it myself or ask the tangoGPS guys. And they are *so* much fun in planes :) Tim [0] http://www.openstreetmap.org/ On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Ken Restivo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 12:38:07PM +0300, Mikko Rauhala wrote: ti, 2008-07-29 kello 20:53 +0200, Marcus Bauer kirjoitti: I'm a huge Openstreetmap fan but until OSM is ready for routing this will take at least five more years, probably ten. That's probably true _if you drive a car_ (though even for that it can be a handy help, especially in areas that don't happen to have lots of turn restrictions, though you of course don't want to just blindly drive listening to it anyway). Us others want navigation too and are considerably less hampered by OSM's current lackings. 'course, there are other projects than TangoGPS, but it seems otherwise nice so one would like it to include this as well. As long as I'm not coding it, it's not my call, of course :] PS: Kudos for your work and all, but with all your hyperbole, jumping to conclusions, accusations of lying and stuff, you might want to take a step back for a breather if you want, you know, people to bother to listen to you instead of just wanting to rant wildly. I have a really dumb question: What is the point of having GPS anyway? I don't travel much, so perhaps that's why I just don't get it. If I'm navigating around a strange city, though, a hardcopy map is plenty good. I spend most of my time walking or taking public transport, within a very short radius, in an area I already know very well. I'm just not getting what's cool or exciting about GPS. -ken ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Ken Restivo wrote: What is the point of having GPS anyway? One reason for GPS on a phone is to provide location information for Enhanced 911 emergency services. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
What is the point of having GPS anyway? Its nice, when you're navigating around an unfamiliar area, to be able to have a realtime update of where you are exactly. Its also fun to have a trace of your trip, if you're the kind of person who gets out a bit. Nice in the forests and among nature, for example, to find that 'magic spot' again .. I spend most of my time walking or taking public transport, within a very short radius, in an area I already know very well. I'm just not getting what's cool or exciting about GPS. GPS is a good reason to get out more. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
start-up solved: [Desktop Entry] Encoding=UTF-8 Name=Navit TryExec=navit GenericName=Navit Comment=GPS Navigation Exec=navit Icon=diversity-nav Terminal=false Type=Application Categories=Network;GPS; StartupNotify=true SingleInstance=true solved it but the destination screen crashes On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Yorick Moko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that page seems very out-dated... I modified the desktop file and it still won't start, what am I doing wrong? the file looks like this: Encoding=UTF-8 Name=Navit TryExec=navit GenericName=Navit Comment=GPS Navigation Exec=navit Icon=diversity-nav Terminal=false Type=Application Categories=GPS; StartupNotify=false What am I doing wrong? Also I could not find any info about the known workaround for crashing when opening the destination screen On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: arne anka wrote: Navit works supprisingly well. Very well with 'stolen/misused' MapRoute maps. got wherefrom, ie what kind of maps work with it? http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Main_Page#Maps But i have to say, the navit build for openmoko is in bad condition. (easy to fix) care to elaborate? The version from Alessandro (ipkg tree linked on his wiki site) is very old, has no .desktop file and icon and crashes when you open the destination screen (known workaround). Details here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Navit -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
my apologies for the spam, i didn't read the wiki good enough, the fix is there On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Yorick Moko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: start-up solved: [Desktop Entry] Encoding=UTF-8 Name=Navit TryExec=navit GenericName=Navit Comment=GPS Navigation Exec=navit Icon=diversity-nav Terminal=false Type=Application Categories=Network;GPS; StartupNotify=true SingleInstance=true solved it but the destination screen crashes On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Yorick Moko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that page seems very out-dated... I modified the desktop file and it still won't start, what am I doing wrong? the file looks like this: Encoding=UTF-8 Name=Navit TryExec=navit GenericName=Navit Comment=GPS Navigation Exec=navit Icon=diversity-nav Terminal=false Type=Application Categories=GPS; StartupNotify=false What am I doing wrong? Also I could not find any info about the known workaround for crashing when opening the destination screen On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: arne anka wrote: Navit works supprisingly well. Very well with 'stolen/misused' MapRoute maps. got wherefrom, ie what kind of maps work with it? http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Main_Page#Maps But i have to say, the navit build for openmoko is in bad condition. (easy to fix) care to elaborate? The version from Alessandro (ipkg tree linked on his wiki site) is very old, has no .desktop file and icon and crashes when you open the destination screen (known workaround). Details here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Navit -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 13:37 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 7/29/08 Marcus Bauer wrote: On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 15:33 -0700, steve wrote: Of course!!! Every toolkit is allowed. The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit! The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless. Please stop telling these lies. Marcus You do realize who you are talking to? This is a childish question. This is person in charge of all of marketing for Openmoko. If he says, the point of something is... you should understand that he speaks for Openmoko. If he would be the pope, then I would understand that he speaks for the catholic church and when he says the point of something is... I would know he is infallible by definition. But if the marketing guy (not sales guy as he pointed out) makes wrong technical statements I have enough authority to correct them. (Simply go over to Wikipedia and check for the word meritocracy and its connection to open source.) And I allow myself to counter your question: Do you realize who *you* are talking to? I am part of your community and I have spent at least four full time months of development for YOUR system. And opposed to you I am not paid. If there is someone who should pay respect, how about you paying respect to me? You can say what you want about his ideas. But you have no basis whatsoever to say he's lieing. FSO has nothing to do with freeing people to pick their toolkit. OM2007.2 offers the phonekit and eds (evolution data server). Both already allow for dbus abstraction and this whole argument is stale. OpenedHand (the authors of OM2007.2) knew what they were doing: OpenedHand is, IMHO, the most talented open source company in the world. Those are your very own words Sean, picked from your website. So some respect. I don't get your point here, Sean. Church-like respect is not what gets things done. Having dreams is great, but then comes the point where you need to wake up and deliver. OM2007.2 is there, just lets use and refine it. The Neo Freerunner is there, just lets use and refine it. Since November 2006 we hear: just a few more months. There is no reason to wait for FSO and seeing how chaotic development has been the past one and a half years I rather doubt that this will ever be anything usable. It is a lot more important to get a community of developers in here and a community of VAR (value added resellers). And it is a lot more important to build up an ecosystem. FSO is a questionable approach made by people with no industry experience, fresh from university. I have to repeat that I would strongly advise any third party developer to stay away from it. Revive OM2007.2, spend time, energy and money for building an ecosystem and get something out that others can build on. *Now*. Not in winter 2008 which then will be probaly summer 2009. Let your pet projects FSO/ASU run in parallel and once they are there, the world will be happy. Do it like the ASUS eeePC. They didn't set out to change the world and to compete with the MacBook Air. They have a rudimentary Linux System on it and people love it. Many people even go on with the simple interface while others reinstall their favourite system. And yet ASUS started a revolution. Not because they follow their own vision, but because they let people dream their own dreams. Sean, on the one hand you talk about empty vessels and museums, on the other hand fail to realize that it is already there. OM2007.2. Created by the most talented open source company. Staying in your metaphor of vessels I want to tell you: it is difficult to set it on the water and let it go. Don't make the mistake and let it sit on the dry until it is rotten. It is a venture to get out of your dreams and into the real world. Just lets do it. -- As the Steve (the person without a last name, who is in charge of the global marketing) has nice book suggestions, I recommend The Masterpiece of Emile Zola. It is about a painter (who bears biographical similarities with Paul Cezanne) who tries to paint his masterpiece and never comes to finish it. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
I will not reply to comments like these in detail. You would not understand. -Sean Marcus Bauer wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 13:37 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 7/29/08 Marcus Bauer wrote: On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 15:33 -0700, steve wrote: Of course!!! Every toolkit is allowed. The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit! The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless. Please stop telling these lies. Marcus You do realize who you are talking to? This is a childish question. This is person in charge of all of marketing for Openmoko. If he says, the point of something is... you should understand that he speaks for Openmoko. If he would be the pope, then I would understand that he speaks for the catholic church and when he says the point of something is... I would know he is infallible by definition. But if the marketing guy (not sales guy as he pointed out) makes wrong technical statements I have enough authority to correct them. (Simply go over to Wikipedia and check for the word meritocracy and its connection to open source.) And I allow myself to counter your question: Do you realize who *you* are talking to? I am part of your community and I have spent at least four full time months of development for YOUR system. And opposed to you I am not paid. If there is someone who should pay respect, how about you paying respect to me? You can say what you want about his ideas. But you have no basis whatsoever to say he's lieing. FSO has nothing to do with freeing people to pick their toolkit. OM2007.2 offers the phonekit and eds (evolution data server). Both already allow for dbus abstraction and this whole argument is stale. OpenedHand (the authors of OM2007.2) knew what they were doing: OpenedHand is, IMHO, the most talented open source company in the world. Those are your very own words Sean, picked from your website. So some respect. I don't get your point here, Sean. Church-like respect is not what gets things done. Having dreams is great, but then comes the point where you need to wake up and deliver. OM2007.2 is there, just lets use and refine it. The Neo Freerunner is there, just lets use and refine it. Since November 2006 we hear: just a few more months. There is no reason to wait for FSO and seeing how chaotic development has been the past one and a half years I rather doubt that this will ever be anything usable. It is a lot more important to get a community of developers in here and a community of VAR (value added resellers). And it is a lot more important to build up an ecosystem. FSO is a questionable approach made by people with no industry experience, fresh from university. I have to repeat that I would strongly advise any third party developer to stay away from it. Revive OM2007.2, spend time, energy and money for building an ecosystem and get something out that others can build on. *Now*. Not in winter 2008 which then will be probaly summer 2009. Let your pet projects FSO/ASU run in parallel and once they are there, the world will be happy. Do it like the ASUS eeePC. They didn't set out to change the world and to compete with the MacBook Air. They have a rudimentary Linux System on it and people love it. Many people even go on with the simple interface while others reinstall their favourite system. And yet ASUS started a revolution. Not because they follow their own vision, but because they let people dream their own dreams. Sean, on the one hand you talk about empty vessels and museums, on the other hand fail to realize that it is already there. OM2007.2. Created by the most talented open source company. Staying in your metaphor of vessels I want to tell you: it is difficult to set it on the water and let it go. Don't make the mistake and let it sit on the dry until it is rotten. It is a venture to get out of your dreams and into the real world. Just lets do it. -- As the Steve (the person without a last name, who is in charge of the global marketing) has nice book suggestions, I recommend The Masterpiece of Emile Zola. It is about a painter (who bears biographical similarities with Paul Cezanne) who tries to paint his masterpiece and never comes to finish it. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
planet.osm.bz2 is 4.2 gigs now, but that's why there are 8 gig microSD cards I guess. :-) Of course being unindexed XML you don't have time to parse and render that much data. Hmm .. that alongside mokopedia, and my 8gig card is *full* to the brim . Cool! :) Hey - maybe *this* is the killer app that puts moko ahead of the pack - a full, open, earth map, combined with the total information of mokopedia, *onboard*, being sold as far and as wide as our languages will allow .. *VERY* interesting! ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Nope. Can't compete against a TomTom or any other commercial Navi. But then there is no solution for the Neo: the screen is too small and the speaker too weak. Nevertheless it is quite often quite handy. I'm using it to navigate the streets of Vienna quite happily, Marcus .. it took me a bit of effort to get it set up to do so, but for the most part it works great. ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 16:07 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: I will not reply to comments like these in detail. You would not understand. Well, we can start calling each other names here - and basically you are calling me retarded. That's fine with me, but next time do it off list. As you are the CEO, I'll try to explain my motivation for my emails a last time: * I have spent considerable amounts of time, doing unpaid development for Openmoko - namely tangoGPS. * I feel that the cooperation between Openmoko and its developer community can be vastly improved, based on the above experience * in the french 'silicon valley' (Sophia Antipolis) with 30.000 employees and 1.300 companies there is a similar sentiment If you think everything is perfect and I just don't and wont understand, so be it. Have a nice day anyway, and hopefully many many Neos will be produced - Marcus Bauer -- developer of tangoGPS ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
This is not at all what I meant. I will reply to you privately. -Sean ...thank you! *removes flak jacket* ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
ti, 2008-07-29 kello 20:53 +0200, Marcus Bauer kirjoitti: I'm a huge Openstreetmap fan but until OSM is ready for routing this will take at least five more years, probably ten. That's probably true _if you drive a car_ (though even for that it can be a handy help, especially in areas that don't happen to have lots of turn restrictions, though you of course don't want to just blindly drive listening to it anyway). Us others want navigation too and are considerably less hampered by OSM's current lackings. 'course, there are other projects than TangoGPS, but it seems otherwise nice so one would like it to include this as well. As long as I'm not coding it, it's not my call, of course :] PS: Kudos for your work and all, but with all your hyperbole, jumping to conclusions, accusations of lying and stuff, you might want to take a step back for a breather if you want, you know, people to bother to listen to you instead of just wanting to rant wildly. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marcus Bauer wrote: * I have spent considerable amounts of time, doing unpaid development for Openmoko - namely tangoGPS. This give you a lot of honor, and if until now I avoid to reply to you was also for this fact. * I feel that the cooperation between Openmoko and its developer community can be vastly improved, based on the above experience * in the french 'silicon valley' (Sophia Antipolis) with 30.000 employees and 1.300 companies there is a similar sentiment You can not to speack also for around 30.000 persons. If you think everything is perfect and I just don't and wont understand, so be it. Marcus the problem is this: Every person can have own ideas. I have mine, you yours, openmoko their, etc etc. When the ideas are different is important how to discuss about it. Freerunner is nice because every person can apply his idea trasforming it to code. What you did, ultil now was only to make polemics about decision token by openmoko, and to say they are liers. And this did me sad, because I am sure you are a very good developer and you can trasform all you ideas in wonderful code. Making a lot of polemics, will trasform us in politician, not in developer. So, if you feel, make your idea code, but please let Openmoko free to follow their. Have you a nice day - - Michele Renda - -- developer of nothing Have a nice day anyway, and hopefully many many Neos will be produced - Marcus Bauer -- developer of tangoGPS ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiQOwMACgkQSIAU/I6SkT2JJwCeLgaRszOYLmYb+KBACGBWFl+5 YYgAoI6zOKH4BxcG+lQi8ARg7s3Ia+BL =RGkc -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On Wed, July 30, 2008 9:07 am, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: I will not reply to comments like these in detail. You would not understand. Sean: Ad homen attacks aside, you need to respond in public to Marcus's substantive points. He is an important community developer, and he is expressing real issues that are widely felt. Tango GPS is a killer application for OpenMoko, and if we loose it, then we substantially weaken the platform, you should think very carefully before burning that bridge. I dont think it was helpful for him to insult you, I guess he was angry, but regardless his points about getting a working platform now are important. You want to build up a community around OpenMoko, from which you hope will flow lots of useful applications. You where very successful in doing that before the hardware was released, but now that it has, and thousands of enthusiast have put down a months rent on a unit of hardware there is widespread frustration. None of us expected an iPhone like polished and fully integrated software stack, but we did expect a developer friendly platform with some basic functionality that would mostly work. Instead the software distributions are forked 5 ways, and none of them work. I am sure I am not the only person who is disinclined to put any effort into finding or fixing the many bugs because I have no idea which distributions will emerge from the mess. You hope that the community to come up with lots of useful applets and full applications, to run on the first open cell phone. For that to happen most people will be 'scratching an itch' The problem is that they will not chose to use an OpenMoko to scratch that itch unless they are carrying it with them, which won't happen until basic phone functionality is working, and most enthusiasts are carrying their OpenMoko as their personal phone. The Wiki and Mailing lists are absolutely brimming with ideas, many of which would be quick to code in a scripting language, but none of this will happen until the basics are there. As Marcus says, the staff a OpenMoko need to put FSO/ASU aside for a while at least and refocus on getting working phone functionality from OM2007.2 as soon as possible. All the design docs are already there on the Wiki and have been for 18 months, it just needs implementing. Once the ecosystem has been started properly you can spend time if you must on your blue sky projects with their clever design. -- David Pottage Error compiling committee.c To many arguments to function. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
Ad homen attacks aside, you need to respond in public to Marcus's substantive points. [as lot of the sensible remarks] +1 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
David Pottage wrote, On 30/07/08 11:07: None of us expected an iPhone like polished and fully integrated software stack, but we did expect a developer friendly platform with some basic functionality that would mostly work. Strangely enough, I didn't. Not having read the mailing list, looked at the wiki. I expected a h/w platform that mostly worked and software that basically didn't. Instead the software distributions are forked 5 ways, and none of them work. That *is* the main problem. I am sure I am not the only person who is disinclined to put any effort into finding or fixing the many bugs because I have no idea which distributions will emerge from the mess. That pretty much sums up my position. You hope that the community to come up with lots of useful applets and full applications, to run on the first open cell phone. For that to happen most people will be 'scratching an itch' The problem is that they will not chose to use an OpenMoko to scratch that itch unless they are carrying it with them, which won't happen until basic phone functionality is working, and most enthusiasts are carrying their OpenMoko as their personal phone. I'm currently carrying it as my personal phone, but it will very quickly become my secondary phone, until the basic phone stuff works. I'll still carry it though. The Wiki and Mailing lists are absolutely brimming with ideas, many of which would be quick to code in a scripting language, but none of this will happen until the basics are there. As Marcus says, the staff a OpenMoko need to put FSO/ASU aside for a while at least and refocus on getting working phone functionality from OM2007.2 as soon as possible. Maybe I've *completely* misunderstood something here, but I thought that the ASU effort was to get an interim phone working asap using the qtopia apps because they are better than the GMAE ones (is that just a perception?). i.e. all the work going into ASU *is* to get a functional phone. So my question remains: why ASU and not OM2007 (GMAE)? -- Alex. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On 7/30/08 David Pottage wrote: On Wed, July 30, 2008 9:07 am, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: I will not reply to comments like these in detail. You would not understand. Sean: Ad homen attacks aside, you need to respond in public to Marcus's substantive points. He is an important community developer, and he is expressing real issues that are widely felt. Tango GPS is a killer application for OpenMoko, and if we loose it, then we substantially weaken the platform, you should think very carefully before burning that bridge. It was never my intention to burn bridges. I was only reacting to his Steve's a liar post. If you really want this public, here is what I said: -- Marcus Email can be a very poor medium to exchange words. You took my do you know who you're talking with email the wrong way. All I wanted to say is that Steve represents the ideas of this project. So if he says something, even if it's technically not the reality of codebase, you can't say he's lying. He knows the direction we're going. So maybe he's starting to talk about this more publicly. Which should be a good thing. Lying: That's a very strong accusation. No personal disrespect was meant to you. I really like the work you did on TangoGPS. My apologies. Peace? -- This particular list, over last few days, has just been too emotionally-charged for my tastes. I'll be silent for a bit and catch up reading new messages over the weekend when I fly again. Hopefully things calm down by then. -Sean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 What to say... free software is done by open passions :) And we deeply like it :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiQSPQACgkQSIAU/I6SkT3JIACgnm+H1NZ2r29PMTjZrgmeo66Y d5oAn2y71vH/1F9XdfKmkZ6L8rx+RAPT =OO67 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Marcus Bauer wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 16:47 +0200, Tilman Baumann wrote: Well, i like tangoGPS very much. But it is hardly a comprehensive solution. First it's only a tile viewer for online maps. No routing, no offline maps. I'm a huge Openstreetmap fan but until OSM is ready for routing this will take at least five more years, probably ten. For all practical purposes the tile pre-caching works well. And in some hindsights tiles are far superior to vector data. Have a look at maps-for-free terrain or openpistemap terrain maps: no chance to keep all this data on a mobile device and no chance to generate maps on the fly, not even with a quad-core desktop CPU. Navit works supprisingly well. Very well with 'stolen/misused' MapRoute maps. And suprisingly well with OSM maps. OSM germany map is only 73M. No big deal. But i have to say, the navit build for openmoko is in bad condition. (easy to fix) But you are tight, they solve quite different problems. Navit is far better for orientation in cities or for cycling and walking. And why i (gta01 user) have to launch gllin via tangoGPS? Since month there is a script that lets you start gllin on the GTA01 automatically. I haven't used this button since a long time. There was just on user (Bwalack) who convinced me to keep the button a bit longer. And he paid for the lunch ;-) Ah, cool. Have to look for this some time. gypsy - yes gpsd - no (at least not as it is, maybe as compat interface) gpsd works well and gypsy is not network capable. What i don't like with gpsd is that it is so inflexible. Like adding a second gps receiver (ok, maybe not very useful) or shutting down the gps device while not used. Simply using your Neo's GPS from your Laptop does not work. I would prefer a bluetooth bridge. Then many more devices than a well pre configured box running gpsd can use it. And especially for an application like tangoGPS it is inherently broken: every nav-application wants to have the raw NMEA and not some preprocessed stuff and the concept to only be notified for certain events is nonsense because any nav-app wants to be notified about every data coming in. This concept just sucks CPU time. Well, you are probably right. A gpsd compatible data stream should probably be available for legacy/more fancy software. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Shawn Rutledge wrote: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I hope you come up with good data for India. I always wanted to have a map of the entire world available in my pocket, so maybe we get closer and closer to that .. ;) planet.osm.bz2 is 4.2 gigs now, but that's why there are 8 gig microSD cards I guess. :-) Of course being unindexed XML you don't have time to parse and render that much data. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Planet.osm That can easyle be compressed to much smaller size for mapping/routing purpses. The osm xml format is very redundant and verbose. I would call it a export format not a usable data format for embedded apps. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Tilman Baumann wrote: But you are tight, they solve quite different problems. Navit is far better for orientation in cities or for cycling and walking. Sorry, this is probably a typo that needs to be declared explicitly. s/tight/right/ *g* -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Navit works supprisingly well. Very well with 'stolen/misused' MapRoute maps. got wherefrom, ie what kind of maps work with it? But i have to say, the navit build for openmoko is in bad condition. (easy to fix) care to elaborate? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
arne anka wrote: Navit works supprisingly well. Very well with 'stolen/misused' MapRoute maps. got wherefrom, ie what kind of maps work with it? http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Main_Page#Maps But i have to say, the navit build for openmoko is in bad condition. (easy to fix) care to elaborate? The version from Alessandro (ipkg tree linked on his wiki site) is very old, has no .desktop file and icon and crashes when you open the destination screen (known workaround). Details here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Navit -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:38 PM, John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: since OM will stick with fso in the foreseeable future, I think port OM2007.2 app suites to fso is a logical move. ogpsd is there based on gypsy, and it should be just another backend of tangogps. Just so you know, the main goal of the Stable Hybrid Release (SHR : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/SHR) is to port applications from 2007.2 to FSO. We have already ported GSM Panel, and we're currently building the dialer. As soon as all of that stuff will be done, it should be usable as is on FSO, or on our image which will, in the end, be either an installation of the new frameworkd on old 2007.2, or some basic packages to install on FSO. -- Julien Cassignol ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 01:08 +0200, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller wrote: Am Dienstag, den 29.07.2008, 00:46 +0200 schrieb Marcus Bauer: On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 15:33 -0700, steve wrote: Of course!!! Every toolkit is allowed. The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit! The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless. Please stop telling these lies. Marcus, did I miss the irony here, or do you really believe this? This is simply a matter of fact, not of believe. FSO is a shitty API collection which is closely connected to ASU. Steve is a sales guy and has not much clue of the underlying software, thus he simply repeats what others told him. The bad combination is NIH (not invented here) together with almightyness thinking which results in all this religion here, making people like you ask whether I believe. I don't believe, I simply know. Why should anyone at Openmoko want to keep out other frameworks, after even putting qtopia to X11? That was mostly Trolltech's work. And apart from that you technically can't keep out any other toolkit because there is Linux below and X on top of it. But FSO combines plenty of different things into one collection of API's and that is how the Microsoft world works and always did and which drove so many developers to Linux. If I use Apache as webserver I can use Konqueror, Opera, Safari or Firefox as browser. However, Microsoft has more than once tried to tie Internet Explorer to IIS, giving it an advantage over other browsers. Same goes for Microsoft Office and Windows. To make it clear (and to prevent Wolfgang Spraul from alluding to incorrect assumptions in case he should answer me): I welcome both qtopia on X11 and an ETK based desktop and ETK based applications on the phone. Linux is all about choice (and that is what freedom means): If I don't want to, I don't have to. On my desktop computer I have a big choice of window managers and they flawlessly work together with a big choice of browsers and a big choice of webservers. For all those teletubby fanbois who are now ready to jump on me: I'm the developer of tangoGPS and have a decent clue what I'm talking about. I'll ask you one question: why was there so much fighting in the free software world about ODF versus Microsoft's OpenXML? I'll answer it for you: because OpenXML ties people to MS Office. FSO is the brainchild of Dr. Michael Lauer, fresh from the university's ivory tower but lacking any industry experience. It is reinventing the wheel and drains lots of ressources that are needed elsewhere inside of Openmoko. It combines plenty of things out of which one is a new PIM API based on dbus. This idea alone is worth to be mentioned every day for a year on the dailyWTF website. It is not about GTK or qt or ETK. It is about getting a working platform out to users and developers. OM2007.2 was mostly there. It reminds me to a joke: Two fools try to escape from a lunatics hospital. There are 100 walls to climb over and so they start: 10, 20, 50, 90, 99. In that moment says the one to the other: 'Lets go back and do the last wall tomorrow'. ...have fun and enjoy life and start looking at the Neo what it is: a tiny Linux computer with a GPS and a GSM modem. There is no sudden revolution going to happen tomorrow. Freedom is a synonym for choice. The choice for your keyboard, for your window manager, for you applications, last not least for your gsmd. FIC/Openmoko came to support Linux on their hardware platform in order to give you this choice. Now it has changed into some religious life-style thingy with phantasies of becoming tomorrows ubiquitious lifestyle equipment. Linux definitely will be, Openmoko can be part of it but thinking that Openmoko is the only parent is just megalomania. Come down to earth, stop excusing hardware flaws with open and freedom, just sit down and fix them and Openmoko hardware will have a bright future. Best regards, Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marcus Bauer wrote: FSO is the brainchild of Dr. Michael Lauer, fresh from the university's ivory tower but lacking any industry experience. It is reinventing the wheel and drains lots of ressources that are needed elsewhere inside of Openmoko. It combines plenty of things out of which one is a new PIM API based on dbus. This idea alone is worth to be mentioned every day for a year on the dailyWTF website. If you think it is wasting resource please show us the way: OM need a lot you experience. But please do it in a concrete way, else it is only smoke -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiOvXUACgkQSIAU/I6SkT3H/QCeO/jqMv53nnjehUUOCZCQrVUG a7wAn1QC9CcnWkSbNm16YVoFO2Y/3sho =u6Aw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
Am Dienstag, den 29.07.2008, 08:23 +0200 schrieb Marcus Bauer: The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless. Please stop telling these lies. Marcus, did I miss the irony here, or do you really believe this? [..] FSO is the brainchild of Dr. Michael Lauer, fresh from the university's ivory tower but lacking any industry experience. It is reinventing the wheel and drains lots of ressources that are needed elsewhere inside of Openmoko. It combines plenty of things out of which one is a new PIM API based on dbus. This idea alone is worth to be mentioned every day for a year on the dailyWTF website. Well, this is an interesting point. I've had the same doubt with DBUS. But event driven programming is exactly what is needed for a battery driven device. IMHO It is not about GTK or qt or ETK. It is about getting a working platform out to users and developers. OM2007.2 was mostly there. You are right. But said that, there is nothing we can do about the decision taken now. And it was taken rather now than even later, because the developers knew they could do better. It reminds me to a joke: Two fools try to escape from a lunatics hospital. There are 100 walls to climb over and so they start: 10, 20, 50, 90, 99. In that moment says the one to the other: 'Lets go back and do the last wall tomorrow'. Nice analogy. But FSO is not going back - but pauses to build a bigger ladder. Even if the idea behind FSO is to build everything from scratch - we can still take all we've got with 2007.2 and just use it in FSO until the newer, better approach is usable. (which will be in 2 or 3 months - if I read the roadmap right) I wasn't reading this list for months, but I find it a pity that guys like you where ignored when designing FSO. IMHO GTK and the Openmoko-GTK-theme have to be usable in FSO - and there has to be support for the older daemons until the new ones are usable and implemented in all apps. Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 08:23:29AM +0200, Marcus Bauer wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 01:08 +0200, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller wrote: Am Dienstag, den 29.07.2008, 00:46 +0200 schrieb Marcus Bauer: The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless. Please stop telling these lies. Marcus, did I miss the irony here, or do you really believe this? This is simply a matter of fact, not of believe. FSO is a shitty API collection which is closely connected to ASU. Steve is a sales guy and has not much clue of the underlying software, thus he simply repeats what others told him. The bad combination is NIH (not invented here) together with almightyness thinking which results in all this religion here, making people like you ask whether I believe. I don't believe, I simply know. Part of my current work requires me to use fso daily. It seems strange that what I know seems to be different from what you know. * fso does not force you to ASU or closely connected in any way. could you please elaborate? fso: an open specification dbus interface (freesmartphone.org) + a reference design (frameworkd, check git.freesmartphone.org) fso-image: fso + a reference python UI based on EFL. asu: a enlightenment WM for mobile phone (illume) + qtopia phone stack (not based on fso) + installer (EFL) + diversity (gps app based on EFL) + exposure (config app based on EFL) the only similarity i can tell is EFL in fso-image. but the fso itself does NOT force you to use it, just the implemented reference UI used it. it's easy to do another reference UI with GTK. Why should anyone at Openmoko want to keep out other frameworks, after even putting qtopia to X11? That was mostly Trolltech's work. And apart from that you technically can't keep out any other toolkit because there is Linux below and X on top of it. But FSO combines plenty of different things into one collection of API's and that is how the Microsoft world works and always did and which drove so many developers to Linux. If I use Apache as webserver I can use Konqueror, Opera, Safari or Firefox as browser. However, Microsoft has more than once tried to tie Internet Explorer to IIS, giving it an advantage over other browsers. Same goes for Microsoft Office and Windows. exactly what are tied together here? i see the arguement here is probably 'fso makes anyone that wants to develop on neo has to use this framework', but this is not true. it can make some developers' life easier but you don't have to use it. for example, you can just run the ogpsd subsystem in frameworkd then use phonekit + gsmd to handle gsm if you want. on the other way around, the frameworkd is just a reference design, anyone can take libgsmd + gsmd to make the same interface on dbus. any app on fso will not notice. snipped FSO is the brainchild of Dr. Michael Lauer, fresh from the university's ivory tower but lacking any industry experience. It is reinventing the wheel and drains lots of ressources that are needed elsewhere inside of Openmoko. It combines plenty of things out of which one is a new PIM API based on dbus. This idea alone is worth to be mentioned every day for a year on the dailyWTF website. could you explain why it's a WTF idea to have a PIM API on dbus? It is not about GTK or qt or ETK. It is about getting a working platform out to users and developers. OM2007.2 was mostly there. It reminds me to a joke: Two fools try to escape from a lunatics hospital. There are 100 walls to climb over and so they start: 10, 20, 50, 90, 99. In that moment says the one to the other: 'Lets go back and do the last wall tomorrow'. ...have fun and enjoy life and start looking at the Neo what it is: a tiny Linux computer with a GPS and a GSM modem. There is no sudden revolution going to happen tomorrow. there are technical reasons behind the re-implementation of gsm daemon but I'm not the one to answer it. I think the reason why you are unhappy is that OM moved away from OM2007.2. well, 1. you are obviously not the only one who felt this way. 2. that's a separate issue. since OM will stick with fso in the foreseeable future, I think port OM2007.2 app suites to fso is a logical move. ogpsd is there based on gypsy, and it should be just another backend of tangogps. Freedom is a synonym for choice. The choice for your keyboard, for your window manager, for you applications, last not least for your gsmd. I like this sentence. if most of the functionalities on my neo have a unified dbus interface then i'm happy. honestly i failed to see anything wrong with this. Regards, John FIC/Openmoko came to support Linux on their hardware platform in order to give you this choice. Now it has changed into some religious life-style thingy with phantasies of becoming tomorrows ubiquitious
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
Hello John, thanks for taking the time for writing your answer. On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 18:38 +0800, John Lee wrote: Part of my current work requires me to use fso daily. It seems strange that what I know seems to be different from what you know. * fso does not force you to ASU or closely connected in any way. could you please elaborate? fso: an open specification dbus interface (freesmartphone.org) + a reference design (frameworkd, check git.freesmartphone.org) fso-image: fso + a reference python UI based on EFL. asu: a enlightenment WM for mobile phone (illume) + qtopia phone stack (not based on fso) + installer (EFL) + diversity (gps app based on EFL) + exposure (config app based on EFL) the only similarity i can tell is EFL in fso-image. but the fso itself does NOT force you to use it, just the implemented reference UI used it. As you note further down, OM is going to stick with FSO. Thus unless OM is developing ASU just for fun, the assumption that it is being ported to FSO seems more than vaild. Please correct me if I'm wrong there. And as you note further down, phonekit needs to be ported, otherwise the dialer and the sms-messages apps wont work any longer. This is not a task one can do in an afternoon. Thus on the long run FSO effectively forces to use ASU. it's easy to do another reference UI with GTK. If Openmoko has taught one thing then the following: easy is nothing. Otherwise people would buy Neo's instead of iPhones now. exactly what are tied together here? gsmd and FSO dbus. The gsmd is the core part of a phone and if that is incompatible to the current OM2007.2 one then dialer and messages stop working. for example, you can just run the ogpsd subsystem in frameworkd then use phonekit + gsmd to handle gsm if you want. Which then will break ASU applications. And this is not how Linux works. I can run Konqueror on GNOME or gimp in KDE or xfce or enlightenment. on the other way around, the frameworkd is just a reference design, anyone can take libgsmd + gsmd to make the same interface on dbus. Again: anyone can take is not true. Anyone can take a couple of transistors and make an iPhone - not. could you explain why it's a WTF idea to have a PIM API on dbus? 1) eds has already been ported to dbus - so FSO is reinventing the wheel 2) the whole world uses libraries at application level because it provides a nice abstraction layer (and so does EDS-dbus). the difference between a bus and a library is similar to a water bottle and a water pipeline in the end the both transport water but they serve different purposes. there are technical reasons behind the re-implementation of gsm daemon but I'm not the one to answer it. the gsmd works well. there is no technical reason. I think the reason why you are unhappy is that OM moved away from OM2007.2. I'm living next to Sophia Antipolis which is the french 'silicon valley' with 1300 companies and 30,000 employees. The common opinion here is that OM shows erratic and unpredictable behaviour which makes it unsuitable for consideration as development platform. That's simply a pity. Unless OM wants to do everything by themselves, they need to care for external developers too in order to set up a working eco system. since OM will stick with fso in the foreseeable future, I think port OM2007.2 app suites to fso is a logical move. If at all I place my bet on GMAE and would not recommend using FSO but sticking with OM2007.2 which will give a much better exit path towards Limo, moblin etc. ogpsd is there based on gypsy, and it should be just another backend of tangogps. ogpsd should just offer the NMEA data on port 2947, thus keeping it nicely network transparent. I'm not going to remove this functionality from tangogps. Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it. OM2007.2 is there, it works and I recommend everybody to develop for it. Best regards, Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it. OM2007.2 is there, it works and I recommend everybody to develop for it. Best regards, Marcus Not to start a flame war but even I would like to know why Openmoko with its scarce resources is developing its own gps software instead of supporting something like Tango GPS that seems to be working so well? Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Am Dienstag 29 Juli 2008 15:28:56 schrieb rakshat hooja: Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it. OM2007.2 is there, it works and I recommend everybody to develop for it. Best regards, Marcus Not to start a flame war but even I would like to know why Openmoko with its scarce resources is developing its own gps software instead of supporting something like Tango GPS that seems to be working so well? Dear Rakshat, please don't let yourself be fooled by polemics, I know it's hard to resist, but we should lean on to the facts. Fact is: Openmoko is NOT developing its own gps software, in fact we all like Tango GPS a lot. It talks nicely to our opgsd implementation and will be included by default in the FSO milestone2. What we did though was to write a framework subsystem implementing the org.freedesktop.Gypso dbus protcol, enhancing it to support the great U-Blox chip found in the Neo Freerunner devices, enhancing it to hook into the systemwide peripheral resource control, enhancing it to prepare for automatic downloading/uploading almanac and ephemeris to improve warmstart. So, in a nutshell: We provided the necessary middleware (as is the rest of FSO) to make things run better. Of course we will also discuss with upstream about how to improve the gypsy implementation of org.freedesktop.Gypsy. Please see Daniel Willmann's announcement for more details. Cheers, -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
rakshat hooja wrote: Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it. OM2007.2 is there, it works and I recommend everybody to develop for it. Best regards, Marcus Not to start a flame war but even I would like to know why Openmoko with its scarce resources is developing its own gps software instead of supporting something like Tango GPS that seems to be working so well? Well, i like tangoGPS very much. But it is hardly a comprehensive solution. First it's only a tile viewer for online maps. No routing, no offline maps. (no, caching tiles for the world is not a solution) And if gpsd is so great, ever wondered why tangoGPS has a button to restart and reconnect gpsd? And why i (gta01 user) have to launch gllin via tangoGPS? tangoGPS and OM2007.2 is hardly a comprehensive solution either. (Yes, it's called being polemic and it is the essence of all good discusions) I too think the OM2007.2 stack is great. And i like to stick with it, at least until ASU matured much much more. And here a sack full of my 2 cents: gypsy - yes gpsd - no (at least not as it is, maybe as compat interface) gsmd - no fso - yes eds - yes efl - yes Illume - maybe OM2007.2 apps - yes Qtopia - no -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 15:46 +0200, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Am Dienstag 29 Juli 2008 15:28:56 schrieb rakshat hooja: Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it. Not to start a flame war but even I would like to know why Openmoko with its scarce resources is developing its own gps software instead of supporting something like Tango GPS that seems to be working so well? Dear Rakshat, please don't let yourself be fooled by polemics, I know it's hard to resist, but we should lean on to the facts. Fact is: Openmoko is NOT developing its own gps software Dear Dr. Michael Lauer, four hours ago (10:38 GMT) John Lee from Openmoko wrote: asu [is]: + diversity (gps app based on EFL) And from the blog of OM employee Holger Freyter: Certainly not the least application we are going to develop in our GForge is diversity. This application is combining GPS, [..] with OpenStreetmap to find your way[...] A quick search on Google tells that Wendy from Openmoko is writing test reports about diversity / splinter. If you look at: http://projects.openmoko.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/?root=diversity you will see that the last checkin was *four hours* (!) ago by an OM employee. Stating that Openmoko is NOT developing its own gps software is an impertinent and blunt lie. Dear Rakshat, please don't let yourself be fooled by lies, I know it's hard to resist, but we should lean on to the facts. Fact is: Openmoko IS developing its own gps software. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: from tangogps. Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it. OM2007.2 is there, it works and I recommend everybody to develop for it. Marcus, these two statements appear to contradict each other. Can you confirm you will continue to work on tangoGPS? In my opinion so far tangoGPS is the best and most mature application which I've got to run the Freerunner. It would be a great shame for the project to loose your leadership. I tried the ASU yesterday, roughly following what has now been written up in the flash ASU thread earlier today and as that thread details it's broken at the moment. I plan to stick with 2007.2 until one clear standard distribution is available and is kept in a reasonably stable state. Tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
Just to let you know: I really like Tango GPS. On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Tim Coggins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: from tangogps. Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it. OM2007.2 is there, it works and I recommend everybody to develop for it. Marcus, these two statements appear to contradict each other. Can you confirm you will continue to work on tangoGPS? In my opinion so far tangoGPS is the best and most mature application which I've got to run the Freerunner. It would be a great shame for the project to loose your leadership. I tried the ASU yesterday, roughly following what has now been written up in the flash ASU thread earlier today and as that thread details it's broken at the moment. I plan to stick with 2007.2 until one clear standard distribution is available and is kept in a reasonably stable state. Tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Please see Daniel Willmann's announcement for more details. Cheers, -- :M: Thanks for the reply and my apologies if I mis-understood something/ got the facts wrong . I will wait for Daniel Willmann's announcement. @Marcus - My main job is to sell the Neo ( I work for a distributor) and tangoGPS is the application that impresses my clients (and me) the most (even though we hardly have OSM data for India!). I would love to see it continue to be developed. (Offline maps is something that people have asked me about also. If you have some suggestions about making that possible using OSM data and I am sure you will find a lot of community support to make that happen) Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
Am Dienstag 29 Juli 2008 18:19:32 schrieb rakshat hooja: Please see Daniel Willmann's announcement for more details. Cheers, -- :M: Thanks for the reply and my apologies if I mis-understood something/ got the facts wrong . I will wait for Daniel Willmann's announcement. It has been sent some days ago, on the -devel list though (where this whole thread should belong to anyways). Please see http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/devel/2008-July/000324.html -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 16:26 +0100, Tim Coggins wrote: On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: from tangogps. Moreover the '800 pound gorilla' OM is developing its own gps software and I'm not spending my energy competing with it. OM2007.2 is there, it works and I recommend everybody to develop for it. Marcus, these two statements appear to contradict each other. Can you confirm you will continue to work on tangoGPS? tangoGPS does run on many other platforms too, i.e. eeePC, your Desktop (Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE, Fedora, Gentooo...). Alpha, amd64, hppa, ia64, powerpc, mipsel, s390, sparc, freeBSD-386/amd64... ;-) So yes, I'm continuing to work on it. What I meant is that OM develops their own GPS app (splotter/density) and once it works well and it is installed by default people will simply go and use it. Such is life and I'm aware of it. Last not least density is the brainchild of Steve ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and he is quite proud of it. Thus there will be funding for ongoing development. In my opinion so far tangoGPS is the best and most mature application which I've got to run the Freerunner. It would be a great shame for the project to loose your leadership. Thanks for your remarks. I'll do my best to live up to it. Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 21:49 +0530, rakshat hooja wrote: @Marcus - My main job is to sell the Neo ( I work for a distributor) and tangoGPS is the application that impresses my clients (and me) the most (even though we hardly have OSM data for India!). I would love to see it continue to be developed. Development will go on and as long as I have a Neo it will run on it too. And I don't intend to sell my Neo ;-) (Offline maps is something that people have asked me about also. If you have some suggestions about making that possible using OSM data and I am sure you will find a lot of community support to make that happen) Offline maps are supported. Make sure you have a recent version of tangoGPS installed and change the directory where the maps are stored to some permanent place. Up to 0.9.2 this is by default /tmp and thus maps get deleted on reboot. You can pre-cache areas from the context menu when clicking on the map, last item map download. Hope that helps, regards, Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
@Marcus - My main job is to sell the Neo ( I work for a distributor) and tangoGPS is the application that impresses my clients (and me) the most (even though we hardly have OSM data for India!). I would love to see it continue to be developed. (Offline maps is something that people have asked me about also. If you have some suggestions about making that possible using OSM data and I am sure you will find a lot of community support to make that happen) It is very interesting to hear of your travails in India .. here in Austria, the map data is available for the most part, and what I have done with TangoGPS is navigate all over the areas I need, while connected to the Internet, and 'soaked the cache' as much as possible. This is a very rewarding experience, somehow, especially with daily updates to my datasets (trace tiles!) .. and it can be used in offline mode pretty well, if you give it space. So I hope you come up with good data for India. I always wanted to have a map of the entire world available in my pocket, so maybe we get closer and closer to that .. ;) ; -- Jay Vaughan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I hope you come up with good data for India. I always wanted to have a map of the entire world available in my pocket, so maybe we get closer and closer to that .. ;) planet.osm.bz2 is 4.2 gigs now, but that's why there are 8 gig microSD cards I guess. :-) Of course being unindexed XML you don't have time to parse and render that much data. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Planet.osm ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS application (was: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld)
On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 16:47 +0200, Tilman Baumann wrote: Well, i like tangoGPS very much. But it is hardly a comprehensive solution. First it's only a tile viewer for online maps. No routing, no offline maps. I'm a huge Openstreetmap fan but until OSM is ready for routing this will take at least five more years, probably ten. For all practical purposes the tile pre-caching works well. And in some hindsights tiles are far superior to vector data. Have a look at maps-for-free terrain or openpistemap terrain maps: no chance to keep all this data on a mobile device and no chance to generate maps on the fly, not even with a quad-core desktop CPU. Actually in most use cases the pre-caching mechanism will save plenty of storage space. And if gpsd is so great, ever wondered why tangoGPS has a button to restart and reconnect gpsd? Not because gpsd crashes but because it lets you connect to a different gpsd elsewhere on the network, i.e. if you do realtime tracking of a Neo. Or if you simply connect to the test gpsd on 82.240.156.91. Or if you have tangoGPS running on your laptop and you quickly and without any hassle want to use the gpsd on your Neo. And why i (gta01 user) have to launch gllin via tangoGPS? Since month there is a script that lets you start gllin on the GTA01 automatically. I haven't used this button since a long time. There was just on user (Bwalack) who convinced me to keep the button a bit longer. And he paid for the lunch ;-) tangoGPS and OM2007.2 is hardly a comprehensive solution either. Nope. Can't compete against a TomTom or any other commercial Navi. But then there is no solution for the Neo: the screen is too small and the speaker too weak. Nevertheless it is quite often quite handy. gypsy - yes gpsd - no (at least not as it is, maybe as compat interface) gpsd works well and gypsy is not network capable. Simply using your Neo's GPS from your Laptop does not work. And especially for an application like tangoGPS it is inherently broken: every nav-application wants to have the raw NMEA and not some preprocessed stuff and the concept to only be notified for certain events is nonsense because any nav-app wants to be notified about every data coming in. This concept just sucks CPU time. But just my 2c. ;-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld (fwd)
Marcus Bauer writes: FSO is the brainchild of Dr. Michael Lauer, fresh from the university's ivory tower but lacking any industry experience. I may not agree with using python on a phone, but Michael has quite a lot of industry experience, I first got to know him was back in the days of Opie Zaurus/iPaq. He is not just a run-of-the-mill part time open source developer. He is quite a gifted engineer. and I beg to differ that Uni experience does not count as 'industry'. Research is at the core of industry and Uni's do quite a bit of needed research. What FSO is trying to do is to provide a common area between device and gui. It is reinventing the wheel and drains lots of ressources that are needed elsewhere inside of Openmoko. It combines plenty of things out of which one is a new PIM API based on dbus. This idea alone is worth to be mentioned every day for a year on the dailyWTF website. We could also say that Linux, Gnome or hundreds of other projects are trying to reinvent the wheel. Reinvention is key to not becoming stale or obsolete. ...have fun and enjoy life and start looking at the Neo what it is: a tiny Linux computer with a GPS and a GSM modem. There is no sudden revolution going to happen tomorrow. As is every other gps phone out there. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On 7/29/08 Marcus Bauer wrote: On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 15:33 -0700, steve wrote: Of course!!! Every toolkit is allowed. The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit! The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless. Please stop telling these lies. Marcus You do realize who you are talking to? This is person in charge of all of marketing for Openmoko. If he says, the point of something is... you should understand that he speaks for Openmoko. You can say what you want about his ideas. But you have no basis whatsoever to say he's lieing. So some respect. -Sean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
Of course!!! Every toolkit is allowed. The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michele Renda Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 9:59 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Michael I am just finishing my first application for the Freerunner. It is python written and use gtk. Are these toolkits allowed to the campain? It is a very simple application, require no connectivity or big resource, but I never saw something like this in a phone. I will give more details in the list when it will be ready -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiHY10ACgkQSIAU/I6SkT362ACdELiesLKpq40YyVx9BigvQGnL 9gkAn0sXrkb3j2ADB8bUPwAMGifV3x60 =W5xO -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 15:33 -0700, steve wrote: Of course!!! Every toolkit is allowed. The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit! The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless. Please stop telling these lies. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Request for help: Would like community applications to show anddiscuss at LinuxWorld
Am Dienstag, den 29.07.2008, 00:46 +0200 schrieb Marcus Bauer: On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 15:33 -0700, steve wrote: Of course!!! Every toolkit is allowed. The whole point about FSO is to free people to pick their toolkit! The opposite is true. FSO forces you into ASU. It basically makes all work that has been put into OM2007.2 useless. Please stop telling these lies. Marcus, did I miss the irony here, or do you really believe this? Why should anyone at Openmoko want to keep out other frameworks, after even putting qtopia to X11? Anyway, GTK applications are working just fine with the FSO image. Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
