Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
On 7/21/07, Mark Eichin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 20 Jul 2007, at 22:25, Ortwin Regel wrote: Order #1833 here and not a developer at all. My last Linux experience was that I changed the screen resolution in Suse 9 to something that didn't work and wasn't able to change it back and get back to the GUI. :P Still, I need this phone and I need it now. It's the phone I've been waiting for for about four years. Pretty much since I got my Tapwave Zodiac and wondered what would happen if it was also a phone. I love to be an early adopter, even if it takes time for stuff to get usable. This is just too fascinating to wait any longer. I'll probably buy a GTA 02 in October, too, and sell my GTA 01 or give it to one of my favourite Palm game developers if I'm feeling generous. I hope people will help me if I'm stuck in some scary command line. ;) Ortwin Regel No, you want the phone. :P At the moment it's not a fully working device, it will do very little. It will be frustrating to have a phone which does nothing. If you haven't ever had to flash a phone or use recovery methods to repair a bricked phone then you'll end up with a paperweight. I've not done much embedded development for a while, my background is in C development. I started on the Amiga and wrote some MIDI software such as MIDI drivers, audio output plugins. I did embedded development for a year, developing firmware for network hardware. Trust me, even I am a little nervous about having a Neo and not being able to contribute. So if you're not a developer you'll feel even more frustrated and impatient. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community This isn't early adopter - this is *pre* adopter - I'd suggest that the 02 model is going to be early adopter, realistically... I ordered one because I think I'm ready to do something useful with it, because * I've already done some of the relevant code in python on my Nokia 6630 with an external GPS * I've done from-scratch build and installs for the Gumstix * embedded gcc/g++ used to be my full-time job (anyone remember Cygnus? :-) * I've written code on an iCreate too * I've used an oscilliscope within the last 6 months... Remember that the one recent live demo we've seen (on youtube, that user's group meeting) involved several iterations of killing and restarting daemons from a remote session on a laptop, and answering a call with AT commands; while we *hope* it's a little more solid than that, I'm expecting that to be part of the debugging to be done in the first batch. Remember also that this one doesn't have 802.11, so until you build yourself a power+usbwifi lashup, it won't really count as a PDA either (why yes, after about 2005 if it doesn't have net it's not really a PDA :-) (I'm also expecting to pick up a cheap pay-as-you go SIM for operating the FIC with, since I actually still need to call and SMS people :-) There's also some gadget-lust going on - I'd probably buy this phone *without* a software install, if it had sufficiently documented hardware, just because (esp. as an Amateur Radio operator) it's the level of control I believe I *should* have of a piece of hardware that I'm paying for. It's pretty clear from this list that there are a lot of wildly varying fantasies built up around the phone, but I don't think anything we've heard officially that suggests that anyone for whom a command line is scary is going to get any value out of it... _Mark_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Herd Of Kittens ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Don't worry, I know exactly what I'm getting into. I am not absolutely certain that I can handle it but I'm willing to try. On 7/21/07, Jeff Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ortwin, with such strong feelings, I need this phone and I need it now, you must have certain specific requirements for putting it to use. Certainly we all have our wish list with lots of far out ideas but what do you need to phone to do first, to meet these four-year-pent-up demands, from before the OpenMoko even existed? Basically you're speaking as someone frustrated with something in particular. I hope people will help me if I'm stuck in some scary command line. ;) Certainly I'll help. I'm hoping to produce a series of screencasts about the phone. My first, just an overview for those wondering what the heck an OpenMoko is that I gave last week at the local DFW Unix Users group, can be found at: http://www.showmedo.com/videos/video?name=104fromSeriesID=104 I'm planning a talk on the hardware, and another on the underlying software architecture. In my mind, I divide the audience into those who are
Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
Ortwin Regel wrote: Order #1833 here and not a developer at all. My last Linux experience was that I changed the screen resolution in Suse 9 to something that didn't work and wasn't able to change it back and get back to the GUI. :P Still, I need this phone and I need it now. It's the phone I've been waiting for for about four years. Ortwin, with such strong feelings, I need this phone and I need it now, you must have certain specific requirements for putting it to use. Certainly we all have our wish list with lots of far out ideas but what do you need to phone to do first, to meet these four-year-pent-up demands, from before the OpenMoko even existed? Basically you're speaking as someone frustrated with something in particular. I hope people will help me if I'm stuck in some scary command line. ;) Certainly I'll help. I'm hoping to produce a series of screencasts about the phone. My first, just an overview for those wondering what the heck an OpenMoko is that I gave last week at the local DFW Unix Users group, can be found at: http://www.showmedo.com/videos/video?name=104fromSeriesID=104 I'm planning a talk on the hardware, and another on the underlying software architecture. In my mind, I divide the audience into those who are system programmers (kernel/driver folks) and those who are application programmers (high-level lang + defined service interfaces). Besides being an embedded systems engineer, I'm also the advocacy coordinator for Python and hope to encourage and support those who want to build their apps using Python. -Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
I've been reading the archives of the various OpenMoko lists and I've noticed a significant number of people who admit they are not programmers at all, or that this is their first exposure to Linux. I'm curious what a non-programmer is going to do with this device in the next few months. And if your first use of Linux is on the device itself, and you run Windows on your desktop, how you're going to grow your Linux skills and effectively develop applications. Just seems odd to me, but maybe I'm overlooking something. ;-) BTW, there are threads of discussion here that are answered by digging into the source code released so far. I've seen some people asking the OpenMoko team to spell how how this or that is going to be done (events from calls) -- guys, its in the source and at this stage we're expected to be developers. While waiting for our oders, we should be setting up our development environment, reading thru the source given so far, and writing test programs to run within the QEMU environment, to get ready. I doubt once the device arrives in the mail that it will come with a manual that makes all things clear or that the functionality on the device will be useful for much by itself -- you'll still have to dive into the source. As an embedded developer myself, the less than smooth way things are unfolding and the rough nature of the device itself are normal and expected when engineering a new device. Those used to a consumer device may not understand this as they rarely get a peek into the process like FIC is giving us. And I'd just like to say to the OpenMoko team thanks for giving us this device and opening it up so that we can participate in its shaping. That many decisions on how things are going to be done are not yet made is a -good- thing, people. The journey is the reward for geeks, not the final destination of a polished, shrink-wrap consumer gadget. -Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
On 7/20/07, Jeff Rush [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been reading the archives of the various OpenMoko lists and I've noticed a significant number of people who admit they are not programmers at all, or that this is their first exposure to Linux. I'm curious what a non-programmer is going to do with this device in the next few months. And if your first use of Linux is on the device itself, and you run Windows on your desktop, how you're going to grow your Linux skills and effectively develop applications. Just seems odd to me, but maybe I'm overlooking something. ;-) BTW, there are threads of discussion here that are answered by digging into the source code released so far. I've seen some people asking the OpenMoko team to spell how how this or that is going to be done (events from calls) -- guys, its in the source and at this stage we're expected to be developers. While waiting for our oders, we should be setting up our development environment, reading thru the source given so far, and writing test programs to run within the QEMU environment, to get ready. I doubt once the device arrives in the mail that it will come with a manual that makes all things clear or that the functionality on the device will be useful for much by itself -- you'll still have to dive into the source. As an embedded developer myself, the less than smooth way things are unfolding and the rough nature of the device itself are normal and expected when engineering a new device. Those used to a consumer device may not understand this as they rarely get a peek into the process like FIC is giving us. And I'd just like to say to the OpenMoko team thanks for giving us this device and opening it up so that we can participate in its shaping. That many decisions on how things are going to be done are not yet made is a -good- thing, people. The journey is the reward for geeks, not the final destination of a polished, shrink-wrap consumer gadget. -Jeff In some points i agree, but i think as an application developer you should not have to look into the code of gsmd, or whatever. As an application programmaer, i (usually) expect some sort of interface wich i can use, and wich is documented. Because if every application diggs deap in some sort of demons/driver/whatever, and some piece of code changes, then we're all fucked up (sorry for the expression). -- My corner of the web: http://ramsesoriginal.wordpress.com My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
Hi. ramsesoriginal pisze: On 7/20/07, *Jeff Rush* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been reading the archives of the various OpenMoko lists and I've noticed a significant number of people who admit they are not programmers at all, or that this is their first exposure to Linux. But it's a wonderful thing that a lot of people are curious what is going on. I'm sure that a few of the would become a real programmers. I'm curious what a non-programmer is going to do with this device in the next few months. And if your first use of Linux is on the device itself, and you run Windows on your desktop, how you're going to grow your Linux skills and effectively develop applications. Just seems odd to me, but maybe I'm overlooking something. ;-) Thet will be very good beta testers. And about that linux, always should be the first time. But linux has its own magnetism. Jeff, I think that some of them will install linux distro on their PC and a new linux adventure will happen for them. In some points i agree, but i think as an application developer you should not have to look into the code of gsmd, or whatever. As an application programmaer, i (usually) expect some sort of interface wich i can use, and wich is documented. Because if every application diggs deap in some sort of demons/driver/whatever, and some piece of code changes, then we're all fucked up (sorry for the expression). I do agree with you. The code should be modular and there should be no need to look inside of it if someone only uses services provided by some daemon. Only interface/api should be known. Ofcourse it needs a good documentation but it's the part of libraries developers. All non-developers - keep tracking the OpenMoko!!! :-) Greetings to all. -- *Bartlomiej Zdanowski* Programmer Product Research Development Department AutoGuard Insurance Ltd. Omulewska 27 street 04-128 Warsaw Poland phone +48 22 611 69 23 www.autoguard.pl http://www.autoguard.pl ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : Thet will be very good beta testers. And about that linux, always should be the first time. But linux has its own magnetism. Jeff, I think that some of them will install linux distro on their PC and a new linux adventure will happen for them. If OpenMoko can be used to boot Linux on a PC then it will be even easier for them. Such an approach has been used for the Wizpy mp3 player, it will boot any PC into Linux. http://www.turbolinux.com/products/wizpy/ --- G O Jones ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
Giles Jones wrote: Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : Thet will be very good beta testers. And about that linux, always should be the first time. But linux has its own magnetism. Jeff, I think that some of them will install linux distro on their PC and a new linux adventure will happen for them. If OpenMoko can be used to boot Linux on a PC then it will be even easier for them. Such an approach has been used for the Wizpy mp3 player, it will boot any PC into Linux. http://www.turbolinux.com/products/wizpy/ http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:LiveUSB_distro ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
Hi, Jeff Rush asks, I'm curious what a non-programmer is going to do with this device in the next few months. And if your first use of Linux is on the device itself, and you run Windows on your desktop, how you're going to grow your Linux skills and effectively develop applications. Just seems odd to me, but maybe I'm overlooking something. ;-) Okay, I probably fall into this group, of non-programmers buying the first available version... you tell me. I am a web programmer and system administrator, and have built a company to five people now doing open source web projects and system administration, but I've never learned C or embedded development, and my coding expertise is limited to PHP, Javascript, and a little Perl or Python here and there. So why did I do one of the first 10 orders? (Order #1828 - still no credit card charge, though) 1. I need a new PDA. My last one was a Palm V, and it died years ago. I've been getting by without one, but as the company has grown, I find I need better access to my addressbook/schedule, and a Smart Phone sounded ideal. Just when I was starting to look (late last fall), the OpenMoko project was announced, and my immediate thought was that's it. That's exactly what I want. I've even been thinking about buying a GPS, so that's a nice bonus. I already have a decent camera, so I don't care about that. And this week, my cell phone is starting to cut people off, too--I'm hoping the OpenMoko dialer will be usable enough soon... 2. The idea of an open, Linux phone is irresistible. I have been using Linux full time on the desktop/laptop for over 4 years, and on servers for over 7. I spend as much time in a shell as I do in the rest of the desktop. While I'm not really a programmer, I have no fear of setting up a development environment and doing whatever is necessary to get it to work, and I have no fear of seeing a console window or anything else here. And the thought that maybe I could write some cool little application in Python to do whatever I want the phone to do--that lowers the bar to the point I just might start developing apps for the thing. 3. I'm patient. Mostly. I mean, I've been waiting 9 months for this thing. I can't wait to get it in my hands, but once I have it, I don't need it to be fully functional--I can wait a little longer for that, and if I can help put the pieces together, maybe I can contribute something to make it smoother for the next people to pick it up. I do have a technical writing background ;-) 4. I want to evaluate it as a strategic direction for my company. I think there could be lots of ways this could become a fantastic tool for businesses who wouldn't think of it now... things like adding an RFID reader/bar-code scanner and use it for warehouse inventories, hooked up to LedgerSMB. Or creating a daily log file for commercial truck drivers, automatically associating location and time and sending entries back to the company's server. Or a home-inspection report that can be checked off at the home, and when done, a report automatically emailed from the company server to the customer and realtor. Or dozens of other custom applications that have people doing things away from a computer, which might be able to be hooked to a web application that uses OpenMoko as a client. The earlier I get my hands on one, the sooner I can see how realistic these ideas might be... and the sooner we can start working on a platform for doing this type of thing that we'd happily contribute back to the community. I'll almost certainly get a GTA2 as well, and hand the GTA1 over to my wife when it's usable enough... P.S. I am going to Ubuntu Live on Sunday, at least to the exhibit hall and the BOF... I'll look forward to meeting people there! Cheers, -- John Locke Open Source Solutions for Small Business Problems published by Charles River Media, June 2004 http://www.freelock.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
Order #1833 here and not a developer at all. My last Linux experience was that I changed the screen resolution in Suse 9 to something that didn't work and wasn't able to change it back and get back to the GUI. :P Still, I need this phone and I need it now. It's the phone I've been waiting for for about four years. Pretty much since I got my Tapwave Zodiac and wondered what would happen if it was also a phone. I love to be an early adopter, even if it takes time for stuff to get usable. This is just too fascinating to wait any longer. I'll probably buy a GTA 02 in October, too, and sell my GTA 01 or give it to one of my favourite Palm game developers if I'm feeling generous. I hope people will help me if I'm stuck in some scary command line. ;) Ortwin Regel ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
On 20 Jul 2007, at 22:25, Ortwin Regel wrote: Order #1833 here and not a developer at all. My last Linux experience was that I changed the screen resolution in Suse 9 to something that didn't work and wasn't able to change it back and get back to the GUI. :P Still, I need this phone and I need it now. It's the phone I've been waiting for for about four years. Pretty much since I got my Tapwave Zodiac and wondered what would happen if it was also a phone. I love to be an early adopter, even if it takes time for stuff to get usable. This is just too fascinating to wait any longer. I'll probably buy a GTA 02 in October, too, and sell my GTA 01 or give it to one of my favourite Palm game developers if I'm feeling generous. I hope people will help me if I'm stuck in some scary command line. ;) Ortwin Regel No, you want the phone. :P At the moment it's not a fully working device, it will do very little. It will be frustrating to have a phone which does nothing. If you haven't ever had to flash a phone or use recovery methods to repair a bricked phone then you'll end up with a paperweight. I've not done much embedded development for a while, my background is in C development. I started on the Amiga and wrote some MIDI software such as MIDI drivers, audio output plugins. I did embedded development for a year, developing firmware for network hardware. Trust me, even I am a little nervous about having a Neo and not being able to contribute. So if you're not a developer you'll feel even more frustrated and impatient. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?
Just joined the list, hope this message ends up where it's supposed to go. I'm an it-hobbyist who is proficient in a number of languages and has some linux (and bash) exposure. I bet there are lots of people like me who salivate over this phone. What drives my lust for it the most is to dynamically switch between voip and gsm depending on availability, to cut down costs and to make it possible for me to live without a land-line-phone, but still with costs lower than that. Oh, and all of the cool apps that have been discussed in the list over the last three days. Oliver ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
