Re: [Community-Discuss] Lu Heng + Larus and the Number Resource Society

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Sep 28, 2021, at 09:45 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Owen,
>  
> I’ve been silent till now on till now on all this.
>  
> However, I must say that you’re right that they didn’t violate the CoC, they 
> did something presumable worst which may constitute criminal offenses 
> (slander, defamation, etc., I’m not sure what is the best way to translate it 
> from my Spanish knowledge about legal language, maybe even several presumable 
> illegal acts and not just one).

Really? Point to the exact criminal content, please.
 
> It is clear that the intent from those documents is to be misread, as they 
> are partial and as such contain untrue information.

What information is untrue, exactly?
 
> I just hope that AFRINIC is able to use all that in the actual case or even a 
> new one if required.

I suspect that’s unlikely as I think you have badly misjudged the situation.
 
> Note that I don’t agree with all what the Board is doing, and I really 
> believe they took very wrong decisions (I’m even still waiting from Board 
> answers on policy proposals and PDP related discussions for months, with 
> shows a very poor willingness from the Board to resolve issues and cooperate 
> in a productive and efficient manner with the community), but also don’t 
> agree that using partial documents is the way to go.

Everyone uses partial documents… I’ve removed much of the earlier conversation 
below in this email, for example. Are you going to attempt to call that slander 
or defamation?

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Lu Heng + Larus and the Number Resource Society

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Hi Owen,

 

I’ve been silent till now on till now on all this.

 

However, I must say that you’re right that they didn’t violate the CoC, they 
did something presumable worst which may constitute criminal offenses (slander, 
defamation, etc., I’m not sure what is the best way to translate it from my 
Spanish knowledge about legal language, maybe even several presumable illegal 
acts and not just one).

 

It is clear that the intent from those documents is to be misread, as they are 
partial and as such contain untrue information.

 

I just hope that AFRINIC is able to use all that in the actual case or even a 
new one if required.

 

Note that I don’t agree with all what the Board is doing, and I really believe 
they took very wrong decisions (I’m even still waiting from Board answers on 
policy proposals and PDP related discussions for months, with shows a very poor 
willingness from the Board to resolve issues and cooperate in a productive and 
efficient manner with the community), but also don’t agree that using partial 
documents is the way to go.

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 28/9/21 18:25, "Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss" 
 escribió:

 

But the ones that produced and propagated the content didn’t violate your CoC 
either as they didn’t post it to your list.

 

Owen

 



On Sep 27, 2021, at 23:31 , AFRINIC Communication  wrote:

 

Dear Nigel,

 

We thank you for bringing this to our attention.

 

The message was not targeted towards you per se but rather those that produce 
and propagate such content within the AFRINIC membership and community.

 

We appreciate our community's kind understanding and support.

 

Regards,

 

AFRINIC Communication



On 28 Sep 2021, at 08:48, Nigel Kukard  wrote:

 

 

On 9/27/21 12:28, AFRINIC Communication wrote:
Dear community members,
 
AFRINIC has  taken note of a post together with a corresponding attachment that 
contains inaccuracies and presented out of context on this thread 
(https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-September/004862.html)
 and was aimed at causing damage and prejudice to AFRINIC as Regional Internet 
Registry for the African region.
I was complaining that I too were getting unsolicited mails in a thread that 
others were also complaining and providing samples. How is my post out of 
context?

How is me complaining about getting unsolicited mails aimed at causing damage 
and prejudice to AFRINIC?

Why am I being publicly targeted and singled out?

 
AFRINIC wishes to inform its community that the information contained in the 
said attachment are presently the subject of several ongoing cases involving 
AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as an ongoing police investigation in 
respect of a matter reported for misappropriation of IP number resources.
Yes, we know that. Your members are complaining about getting unsolicited 
communications involving email and phone calls and sharing this with each other 
on a COMMUNITY mailing list and discussing it.

 
 AFRINIC will not comment thereon but reserves its rights to apply its Code of 
Conduct against all persons making use of its mailing lists for the purposes of 
causing damage and harm to AFRINIC and to take such action as it may be advised.
Literally my second post, second complaint about getting unsolicited 
communications and I'm being threatened by AFRINIC with action because I'm 
causing damage and prejudice to AFRINIC?

 

-N

 
We have also noticed that some community members are not upholding the code of 
conduct in their exchanges.
 
We urge you all to read the AFRINIC Code of Conduct to make sure you are up to 
date on the processes that safeguard the discussion and community-driven 
policies at the heart of AFRINIC.
 
The code of conduct ensures that discussions are kept professional and that 
individuals are protected against defamatory, derogatory and personal attacks.
 
Please read the following blog post for more information on the AFRINIC Code of 
Conduct: https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct
 
 
AFRINIC Communication
 
On 26 Sep 2021, at 19:03, Sander Steffann  wrote:
 
Hi Omo,
 
Thanks.  I was trying to understand the dialogue between you and Lu and the 
"clarification".  How do you mean "may be of influence"?   
At AFRINIC meetings I have seen many cases where there was a lot of "steering" 
(people being sent to the microphones with pre-defined statements they didn't 
write themselves, but where it was pretended that it was their own opinion) 
which I have never seen at other RIRs. AFRINIC seems to be unique in the way 
there are plays for power and influence that are undermining the true bottom-up 
way, and people seem to accept this as normal. In other regions there is much 
less hierarchy (we have no CoE for example) and everybody is treated more 
equally.
 
The "power games" I have seen in AFRINIC at all levels (board, management, RPD, 
community) and the distrust between for example Anglophone and Francophone 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Lu Heng + Larus and the Number Resource Society

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

But the ones that produced and propagated the content didn’t violate your CoC 
either as they didn’t post it to your list.

Owen


> On Sep 27, 2021, at 23:31 , AFRINIC Communication  wrote:
> 
> Dear Nigel,
> 
> We thank you for bringing this to our attention.
> 
> The message was not targeted towards you per se but rather those that produce 
> and propagate such content within the AFRINIC membership and community.
> 
> We appreciate our community's kind understanding and support.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> AFRINIC Communication
> 
>> On 28 Sep 2021, at 08:48, Nigel Kukard > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 9/27/21 12:28, AFRINIC Communication wrote:
>>> Dear community members,
>>> 
>>> AFRINIC has  taken note of a post together with a corresponding attachment 
>>> that contains inaccuracies and presented out of context on this thread 
>>> (https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-September/004862.html
>>>  
>>> )
>>>  and was aimed at causing damage and prejudice to AFRINIC as Regional 
>>> Internet Registry for the African region.
>> I was complaining that I too were getting unsolicited mails in a thread that 
>> others were also complaining and providing samples. How is my post out of 
>> context?
>> 
>> How is me complaining about getting unsolicited mails aimed at causing 
>> damage and prejudice to AFRINIC?
>> 
>> Why am I being publicly targeted and singled out?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> AFRINIC wishes to inform its community that the information contained in 
>>> the said attachment are presently the subject of several ongoing cases 
>>> involving AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as an ongoing police 
>>> investigation in respect of a matter reported for misappropriation of IP 
>>> number resources.
>> Yes, we know that. Your members are complaining about getting unsolicited 
>> communications involving email and phone calls and sharing this with each 
>> other on a COMMUNITY mailing list and discussing it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>  AFRINIC will not comment thereon but reserves its rights to apply its Code 
>>> of Conduct against all persons making use of its mailing lists for the 
>>> purposes of causing damage and harm to AFRINIC and to take such action as 
>>> it may be advised.
>> Literally my second post, second complaint about getting unsolicited 
>> communications and I'm being threatened by AFRINIC with action because I'm 
>> causing damage and prejudice to AFRINIC?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -N
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> We have also noticed that some community members are not upholding the code 
>>> of conduct in their exchanges.
>>> 
>>> We urge you all to read the AFRINIC Code of Conduct to make sure you are up 
>>> to date on the processes that safeguard the discussion and community-driven 
>>> policies at the heart of AFRINIC.
>>> 
>>> The code of conduct ensures that discussions are kept professional and that 
>>> individuals are protected against defamatory, derogatory and personal 
>>> attacks.
>>> 
>>> Please read the following blog post for more information on the AFRINIC 
>>> Code of Conduct: https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> AFRINIC Communication
>>> 
 On 26 Sep 2021, at 19:03, Sander Steffann  
  wrote:
 
 Hi Omo,
 
> Thanks.  I was trying to understand the dialogue between you and Lu and 
> the "clarification".  How do you mean "may be of influence"?   
 At AFRINIC meetings I have seen many cases where there was a lot of 
 "steering" (people being sent to the microphones with pre-defined 
 statements they didn't write themselves, but where it was pretended that 
 it was their own opinion) which I have never seen at other RIRs. AFRINIC 
 seems to be unique in the way there are plays for power and influence that 
 are undermining the true bottom-up way, and people seem to accept this as 
 normal. In other regions there is much less hierarchy (we have no CoE for 
 example) and everybody is treated more equally.
 
 The "power games" I have seen in AFRINIC at all levels (board, management, 
 RPD, community) and the distrust between for example Anglophone and 
 Francophone parts of the community make it very hard to run a true 
 bottom-up system. Such behaviour in AFRINIC and its community make it very 
 vulnerable to top-down influences, because the framework for such 
 influences is already there.
 
 Cheers,
 Sander
 
 PS: I am only part of the global internet community, not directly of the 
 AFRINIC community. I can therefore only state how I see things from the 
 outside. I am sure there are many things I interpret differently because 
 of my different background. Please do not take offence, I only try to hold 
 up a mirror. I have no personal, commercial or financial stake 

[Community-Discuss] SAFNOG-6 - Eddy Kayihura, AFRINIC CEO, Speaking Shortly

[Mark Tinka]

Hi all.

As per subject:

https://safnog.org/virtual-meetings/agenda.html

Please join. Thanks.

Mark.
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Lu Heng + Larus and the Number Resource Society

[Noah]

Dear AFRINIC Comms,

Please do not create confusion within the community. Your email to Nigel
was not clear. For your information, more AFRINIC resource members and
communication regulators are also being targeted by the NRS campaign if
mis-information. And since when was Ernest Byaruhaga the CEO of AFRINIC.

Please can AFRINIC clarify if that is true or not because documents being
circulated by the Number Resource Society people are purporting as such.

Noah

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 9:36 AM AFRINIC Communication 
wrote:

> Dear Nigel,
>
> We thank you for bringing this to our attention.
>
> The message was not targeted towards you per se but rather those that
> produce and propagate such content within the AFRINIC membership and
> community.
>
> We appreciate our community's kind understanding and support.
>
> Regards,
>
> AFRINIC Communication
>
> On 28 Sep 2021, at 08:48, Nigel Kukard  wrote:
>
>
> On 9/27/21 12:28, AFRINIC Communication wrote:
>
> Dear community members,
>
> AFRINIC has  taken note of a post together with a corresponding attachment 
> that contains inaccuracies and presented out of context on this thread 
> (https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-September/004862.html)
>  and was aimed at causing damage and prejudice to AFRINIC as Regional 
> Internet Registry for the African region.
>
> I was complaining that I too were getting unsolicited mails in a thread
> that others were also complaining and providing samples. How is my post out
> of context?
>
> How is me complaining about getting unsolicited mails aimed at causing
> damage and prejudice to AFRINIC?
>
> Why am I being publicly targeted and singled out?
>
>
> AFRINIC wishes to inform its community that the information contained in the 
> said attachment are presently the subject of several ongoing cases involving 
> AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as an ongoing police investigation 
> in respect of a matter reported for misappropriation of IP number resources.
>
> Yes, we know that. Your members are complaining about getting unsolicited
> communications involving email and phone calls and sharing this with each
> other on a *COMMUNITY* mailing list and discussing it.
>
>
>  AFRINIC will not comment thereon but reserves its rights to apply its Code 
> of Conduct against all persons making use of its mailing lists for the 
> purposes of causing damage and harm to AFRINIC and to take such action as it 
> may be advised.
>
> Literally my second post, second complaint about getting unsolicited
> communications and I'm being threatened by AFRINIC with action because I'm
> causing damage and prejudice to AFRINIC?
>
>
> -N
>
>
> We have also noticed that some community members are not upholding the code 
> of conduct in their exchanges.
>
> We urge you all to read the AFRINIC Code of Conduct to make sure you are up 
> to date on the processes that safeguard the discussion and community-driven 
> policies at the heart of AFRINIC.
>
> The code of conduct ensures that discussions are kept professional and that 
> individuals are protected against defamatory, derogatory and personal attacks.
>
> Please read the following blog post for more information on the AFRINIC Code 
> of Conduct: https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct
>
>
> AFRINIC Communication
>
>
> On 26 Sep 2021, at 19:03, Sander Steffann  
>  wrote:
>
> Hi Omo,
>
>
> Thanks.  I was trying to understand the dialogue between you and Lu and the 
> "clarification".  How do you mean "may be of influence"?
>
> At AFRINIC meetings I have seen many cases where there was a lot of 
> "steering" (people being sent to the microphones with pre-defined statements 
> they didn't write themselves, but where it was pretended that it was their 
> own opinion) which I have never seen at other RIRs. AFRINIC seems to be 
> unique in the way there are plays for power and influence that are 
> undermining the true bottom-up way, and people seem to accept this as normal. 
> In other regions there is much less hierarchy (we have no CoE for example) 
> and everybody is treated more equally.
>
> The "power games" I have seen in AFRINIC at all levels (board, management, 
> RPD, community) and the distrust between for example Anglophone and 
> Francophone parts of the community make it very hard to run a true bottom-up 
> system. Such behaviour in AFRINIC and its community make it very vulnerable 
> to top-down influences, because the framework for such influences is already 
> there.
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
>
> PS: I am only part of the global internet community, not directly of the 
> AFRINIC community. I can therefore only state how I see things from the 
> outside. I am sure there are many things I interpret differently because of 
> my different background. Please do not take offence, I only try to hold up a 
> mirror. I have no personal, commercial or financial stake in AFRINIC, but I 
> do care about the bottom-up principle and fairness. Those are the only 
> reasons I 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Lu Heng + Larus and the Number Resource Society

[Noah]

Lu,

On Sun, 26 Sep 2021, 16:30 Lu Heng,  wrote:

> As exactly that, Owen does not make a representation of me, or any of
> the company some might think he represents, his understanding is
> entirely his own and does not speak for me, or NRS.
>

Very well, this is clear now since Owen often purports to speak on behalf
of your various entities using the "*We*" blah blah blah.


> To my understanding, NRS is not trying to make representation of
> anyone here in the community, and it never did, it's passing on a
> teaching/a view of the world some might find acceptable, some may find
> not.
>

The documents being sent to various resource members contain deceit and
misrepresentation so much so for false teaching expeditions by your
self-serving NRS. Based on my years of participation in this community, I
note that, no single resource member and I repeat, no single resource
member has ever gone this far or acted in this manner with your motives
becoming clearer, each day that passes from Cloud Innovation Ltd and all
its affiliates.

- I do not know of a resource member, who has attempted to recruit other
resource members through deceit (NRS) until you Lu.

- I do not know of a resource member whose associates (I mean your Larus
Foundation Fellows) have repeatedly acted as an echo-chamber to ensure the
AFRINIC PDP is rendered dysfunctional.

- I do not know of a resource member who has attempted to work behind the
scenes and push for a draft proposal through proxy authors until you Lu.
You were always behind this Antony Ubah and Taiwo draft policy which the
community rejected that today has pending PDWG appeals.  If you deny what I
just stated, I will ask a renowned community member to speak out about what
I just stated.



*Case #5: Cloud Innovation Ltd vs AFRINIC (SC/COM/MOT/000382/2021)On 07
July 2021, Cloud Innovation Ltd initiated an application for Injunction
against AFRINIC requiring its board of directors to ratify a certain
resource transfer policy. The matter is resisted by AFRINIC and is ongoing.*
We the community rejected the proposal above because the co-chair errored
and we appealed as we are empowered through the bottom up process. One of
the former co-chairs, Abdulkarim, repeatedly lied to the community and
abused the PDP process to forcefully advance this proposal which you have
always pushed for behind the scenes.  The proposal in fact was never even
compatible with any RIR in all its multiple versions 2, version, 3 or
version 4 all of which were rushed through by your associates Antony and
Taiwo.

Today, you want to hijack the empowered internet community and its
bottom-up process by going to the Mauritian supreme courts in an attempt to
force the court to ratify the flawed self-serving draft policy of yours.
More than ever, the motive is clear, you want to use the policy as a means
to again, as usual, abuse existing community developed processes so that
you can get the opportunity to transfer the space that was allocated to you
for use in AFRICA out of the region.

I repeat, I do not know of a resource member who has invested so much
energy in pushing a draft policy proposal that never reached community
consensus until you Lu. AbdulKarim screaming Rough Consensus, Consensus, No
Consensus and Consensus within 4 weeks in the last call does not make for
Consensus.

In the history of the AFRINIC PDP, no proposal has ever been protested like
your resource transfer policy and that should tell you something about the
bottom up process which you clearly do not respect or have a clue about.

Your  behaviour is so wanting Lu.

Cheers,
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Lu Heng + Larus and the Number Resource Society

[AFRINIC Communication]

Dear Nigel,

We thank you for bringing this to our attention.

The message was not targeted towards you per se but rather those that produce 
and propagate such content within the AFRINIC membership and community.

We appreciate our community's kind understanding and support.

Regards,

AFRINIC Communication

> On 28 Sep 2021, at 08:48, Nigel Kukard  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/27/21 12:28, AFRINIC Communication wrote:
>> Dear community members,
>> 
>> AFRINIC has  taken note of a post together with a corresponding attachment 
>> that contains inaccuracies and presented out of context on this thread 
>> (https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-September/004862.html
>>  
>> )
>>  and was aimed at causing damage and prejudice to AFRINIC as Regional 
>> Internet Registry for the African region.
> I was complaining that I too were getting unsolicited mails in a thread that 
> others were also complaining and providing samples. How is my post out of 
> context?
> 
> How is me complaining about getting unsolicited mails aimed at causing damage 
> and prejudice to AFRINIC?
> 
> Why am I being publicly targeted and singled out?
> 
> 
> 
>> AFRINIC wishes to inform its community that the information contained in the 
>> said attachment are presently the subject of several ongoing cases involving 
>> AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as an ongoing police investigation 
>> in respect of a matter reported for misappropriation of IP number resources.
> Yes, we know that. Your members are complaining about getting unsolicited 
> communications involving email and phone calls and sharing this with each 
> other on a COMMUNITY mailing list and discussing it.
> 
> 
> 
>>  AFRINIC will not comment thereon but reserves its rights to apply its Code 
>> of Conduct against all persons making use of its mailing lists for the 
>> purposes of causing damage and harm to AFRINIC and to take such action as it 
>> may be advised.
> Literally my second post, second complaint about getting unsolicited 
> communications and I'm being threatened by AFRINIC with action because I'm 
> causing damage and prejudice to AFRINIC?
> 
> 
> 
> -N
> 
> 
> 
>> We have also noticed that some community members are not upholding the code 
>> of conduct in their exchanges.
>> 
>> We urge you all to read the AFRINIC Code of Conduct to make sure you are up 
>> to date on the processes that safeguard the discussion and community-driven 
>> policies at the heart of AFRINIC.
>> 
>> The code of conduct ensures that discussions are kept professional and that 
>> individuals are protected against defamatory, derogatory and personal 
>> attacks.
>> 
>> Please read the following blog post for more information on the AFRINIC Code 
>> of Conduct: https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> AFRINIC Communication
>> 
>>> On 26 Sep 2021, at 19:03, Sander Steffann  
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Omo,
>>> 
 Thanks.  I was trying to understand the dialogue between you and Lu and 
 the "clarification".  How do you mean "may be of influence"?   
>>> At AFRINIC meetings I have seen many cases where there was a lot of 
>>> "steering" (people being sent to the microphones with pre-defined 
>>> statements they didn't write themselves, but where it was pretended that it 
>>> was their own opinion) which I have never seen at other RIRs. AFRINIC seems 
>>> to be unique in the way there are plays for power and influence that are 
>>> undermining the true bottom-up way, and people seem to accept this as 
>>> normal. In other regions there is much less hierarchy (we have no CoE for 
>>> example) and everybody is treated more equally.
>>> 
>>> The "power games" I have seen in AFRINIC at all levels (board, management, 
>>> RPD, community) and the distrust between for example Anglophone and 
>>> Francophone parts of the community make it very hard to run a true 
>>> bottom-up system. Such behaviour in AFRINIC and its community make it very 
>>> vulnerable to top-down influences, because the framework for such 
>>> influences is already there.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sander
>>> 
>>> PS: I am only part of the global internet community, not directly of the 
>>> AFRINIC community. I can therefore only state how I see things from the 
>>> outside. I am sure there are many things I interpret differently because of 
>>> my different background. Please do not take offence, I only try to hold up 
>>> a mirror. I have no personal, commercial or financial stake in AFRINIC, but 
>>> I do care about the bottom-up principle and fairness. Those are the only 
>>> reasons I speak up on AFRINIC mailing lists.
>>> 
>> 

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