Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

Each of them is described in a case in Mauritian court. Feel free to pull the 
cases. They should not be hard to find. 

Owen


> On Jan 7, 2022, at 09:10, Owen DeLong  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>>> On Dec 30, 2021, at 02:14 , DANIEL NANGHAKA  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I wonder why some members can't let the court of law do its work.
>>> 
>>> AFRINIC has provided updates to the community where necessity of the update 
>>> is important. 
>> 
>> Several of which have contained false or misleading claims and most of which 
>> have been quite incomplete.
>> 
>> If CI is to do there press releases, there is no problem as it is also noted 
>> that they should present facts and not mislead the community. 
> 
> I think you mean “their press releases”.
> 
> Again, I am questioning the claim that what CI has presented is not factual 
> or is misleading… IF someone actually wants to make
> such a claim, then let them say exactly what the believe to be false or 
> misleading and offer evidence to refute it. So far, that has
> not happened.
> 
>> CI's press release looks vague and does not give detailed information. If 
>> you do a press release then present the exact issues otherwise just shut up 
>> and let the courts do there job. 
> 
> AFRINIC’s press releases have been similarly vague and have not offered 
> detailed information. This is the nature of the limits
> of what you can say when involved in litigation to some extent. Beyond that, 
> of course both parties will attempt to convey themselves
> in the best light as they attempt to gain ground in public opinion.
> 
> While I do some consulting for Cloud Innovation, I am not Cloud Innovation 
> and I speak my own mind. I am as likely to criticize
> Cloud Innovation as Praise it. When I believe AFRINIC has done something 
> right, I will say so. When I believe AFRINIC is
> violating its own policies and ignoring its own rules, I will say so.
> 
> Your criticism of the vagueness of press releases may be legitimate, but if 
> so then it applies equally to both sides.
> 
> However, the press releases around these cases have been no more or less 
> vague than virtually any other similar dispute
> throughout history and this is generally true of both sides.
> 
> Owen
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 23:08 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Are you saying that the cloud innovation press release contains false, 
>>> misleading, or inaccurate defamatory claims about afrinic?
>>> 
>>> Owen
>>> 
>>> 
> On Dec 28, 2021, at 12:38, John Curran  wrote:
> 
  
> On 28 Dec 2021, at 2:49 PM, Mathanya Ramaboea  
> wrote:
> 
> I highly appreciate CI's good communication with its clients regarding 
> the development of the lawsuit but I also agree that it would be good to 
> see what AFRINIC also has to say on the matter, to its members and 
> everyone else in the community. It is normal that the case involves a 
> certain level of confidentiality but from Cheken's link it appears that 
> AFRINIC has "repeatedly breached the Judge's order and acted in contempt 
> of the court'', so at what cost? How would this reflect on the outcome of 
> the litigation and everyone impacted?
 
 Reference:  https://afrinic.net/court-cases
 
 Given that one of the matters of litigation is a claim of defamation by 
 Cloud Innovation against AFRINIC as a result of AFRINIC’s past 
 communications to the community about the cases, it would not surprise me 
 in the least if AFRINIC were to be quite reticent about further 
 communications on these legal matters – I know that I would be if ARIN 
 faced similar circumstances, even if it went further so as to include 
 specious representations to our community about their status.
 
 FYI,
 /John
 
 John Curran
 President and CEO
 American Registry for Internet Numbers
 
 
 
 
 ___
 Community-Discuss mailing list
 Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
 https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Dec 30, 2021, at 02:14 , DANIEL NANGHAKA  wrote:
> 
> I wonder why some members can't let the court of law do its work.
> 
> AFRINIC has provided updates to the community where necessity of the update 
> is important. 

Several of which have contained false or misleading claims and most of which 
have been quite incomplete.

> If CI is to do there press releases, there is no problem as it is also noted 
> that they should present facts and not mislead the community. 

I think you mean “their press releases”.

Again, I am questioning the claim that what CI has presented is not factual or 
is misleading… IF someone actually wants to make
such a claim, then let them say exactly what the believe to be false or 
misleading and offer evidence to refute it. So far, that has
not happened.

> CI's press release looks vague and does not give detailed information. If you 
> do a press release then present the exact issues otherwise just shut up and 
> let the courts do there job. 

AFRINIC’s press releases have been similarly vague and have not offered 
detailed information. This is the nature of the limits
of what you can say when involved in litigation to some extent. Beyond that, of 
course both parties will attempt to convey themselves
in the best light as they attempt to gain ground in public opinion.

While I do some consulting for Cloud Innovation, I am not Cloud Innovation and 
I speak my own mind. I am as likely to criticize
Cloud Innovation as Praise it. When I believe AFRINIC has done something right, 
I will say so. When I believe AFRINIC is
violating its own policies and ignoring its own rules, I will say so.

Your criticism of the vagueness of press releases may be legitimate, but if so 
then it applies equally to both sides.

However, the press releases around these cases have been no more or less vague 
than virtually any other similar dispute
throughout history and this is generally true of both sides.

Owen

> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 23:08 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
> mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>> wrote:
> Are you saying that the cloud innovation press release contains false, 
> misleading, or inaccurate defamatory claims about afrinic?
> 
> Owen
> 
> 
>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 12:38, John Curran > > wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> On 28 Dec 2021, at 2:49 PM, Mathanya Ramaboea >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I highly appreciate CI's good communication with its clients regarding the 
>>> development of the lawsuit but I also agree that it would be good to see 
>>> what AFRINIC also has to say on the matter, to its members and everyone 
>>> else in the community. It is normal that the case involves a certain level 
>>> of confidentiality but from Cheken's link it appears that AFRINIC has 
>>> "repeatedly breached the Judge's order and acted in contempt of the 
>>> court'', so at what cost? How would this reflect on the outcome of the 
>>> litigation and everyone impacted?
>> 
>> Reference:  https://afrinic.net/court-cases 
>> 
>> Given that one of the matters of litigation is a claim of defamation by 
>> Cloud Innovation against AFRINIC as a result of AFRINIC’s past 
>> communications to the community about the cases, it would not surprise me in 
>> the least if AFRINIC were to be quite reticent about further communications 
>> on these legal matters – I know that I would be if ARIN faced similar 
>> circumstances, even if it went further so as to include specious 
>> representations to our community about their status.
>> 
>> FYI,
>> /John
>> 
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message 
Ibeanusi Elvis  wrote:

>The press release is in no way obstructing the functionality and the
>ability of the court to carry out its duties nor is it misleading the
>community. There is nothing vague, defamatory or "not facts" about the
>press release...

It alleges "multiple" violations of court orders.  Please list those so
that others can independently verify whether this is true or bullshit.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message 
DANIEL NANGHAKA  wrote:

>AFRINIC has provided updates to the community where necessity of the update
>is important.
>
>If CI is to do there press releases, there is no problem as it is also
>noted that they should present facts and not mislead the community.
>
>CI's press release looks vague and does not give detailed information. If
>you do a press release then present the exact issues otherwise just shut up
>and let the courts do there job.

+1


Regards,
rfg


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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message 
Ibeanusi Elvis  wrote:

>This "sockpuppet" ideology and terminology that has become an excessively
>overused irrelevant term in this mailing list. What is wrong with sharing a
>link of interest or a link that a member consider relevant to him/herself.
>Freedom of expression is always promoted in this community as long as it
>does not go out of line. Members of this community including the AFRINIC
>organization itself always share updates and links; never have it been
>considered an act of being a "Sockpuppet". Lets stop throwing words around
>in this community mailing list and create unwanted confusion.

Sockpuppetry is not an "ideology".  It is a well-established fact of life
on the modern Internet, just as "astroturfing" is in real life.  If you
don't know that then it is because either you are ignorant or else it is
because you are pretending to be ignorant.

The poster in question is using and was using a fradulent name together with
an essentially anonymous gmail account.  The name given in the From: header
is bogus and is a reference to a non-existant fictitious person, as anyone
who simply takes a moment to google the name can readily see.

This is fundamentally different from Real People posting to these lists.
Real People have histories, known connections, and readily identifiable
employers.  Sock puppets have none of these things.

If you don't like people talking about sock puppets on these mailing lists
then perhaps you should, in the first instance, try to get the sock
puppets to stop posting garbage and unenlightening recycled company PR
blurbs to these mailing lists.

Most of us have real work to do, and if we really want to be bombarded by
commercial advertisments being written and spread around by specific
individual companies, at their request or prompting, and for their benefit,
then there are other places where we can seek out that kind of stuff.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Ibeanusi Elvis]

Hello Daniel,

The press release is in no way obstructing the functionality and the
ability of the court to carry out its duties nor is it misleading the
community. There is nothing vague, defamatory or “not facts” about the
press release. Rather I will recommend you should study more about the
AFRINIC and it’s operations better.

Elvis.

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 7:24 John Curran  wrote:

>
> On 30 Dec 2021, at 6:32 AM, Mathanya Ramaboea 
> wrote:
>
> How is any press release obstructing the court's job and misleading
> the community? Here it is obviously directed at CI's clients, which is a
> normal move from any private company.
>
> Judging from the info in the statement published, I think necessity of
> update should come from both AFRINIC and CI now, because there seems to be
> a serious development in the case that has been kept from the community and
> we should have an idea in whose favour that would be
>
>
> Mathanya -
>
> I’m not sure why you see the release as reporting a "serious development
> in the case", as Cloud Innovation (CI) notes the purpose in its own words
> to “update its privileged clients as regards the legal dispute” and further
> "reassures its clients that its rights and interests as one of the major
> members of AFRINIC are protected pursuant to a number of Court Orders"
>
> CI then alleges acts of improper behavior by AFRINIC over which it has
> initiated legal proceedings and "are yet to be determined by the competent
> courts.”  Finally, CI reiterates that pending such determination, its
> rights are protected pursuant to injunctive orders and it strives to
> provide continuous service to its valued clients.
>
> This is indeed important status information for CI clients to have (and as
> you observe quite proper for CI to issue), but with respect to overall
> legal dispute it does not appear (as far as I can discern from the little
> information provided) to reflect a situation that is significantly
> different from the existing status quo – just more claims made in
> litigation that will need to await eventually adjudication.
>
> Again, given that these claims are still to be determined by the courts –
> and that even CI indicates that it cannot at this stage "disclose the
> substantive elements of its claim against AFRINIC” – it wouldn’t appear
> reasonable to expect significant updates on this situation from either
> party at this time.
>
>
> Happy Holidays,
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[John Curran]

On 30 Dec 2021, at 6:32 AM, Mathanya Ramaboea 
mailto:mathanyaw...@gmail.com>> wrote:

How is any press release obstructing the court's job and misleading the 
community? Here it is obviously directed at CI's clients, which is a normal 
move from any private company.

Judging from the info in the statement published, I think necessity of update 
should come from both AFRINIC and CI now, because there seems to be a serious 
development in the case that has been kept from the community and we should 
have an idea in whose favour that would be

Mathanya -

I’m not sure why you see the release as reporting a "serious development in the 
case", as Cloud Innovation (CI) notes the purpose in its own words to “update 
its privileged clients as regards the legal dispute” and further "reassures its 
clients that its rights and interests as one of the major members of AFRINIC 
are protected pursuant to a number of Court Orders"

CI then alleges acts of improper behavior by AFRINIC over which it has 
initiated legal proceedings and "are yet to be determined by the competent 
courts.”  Finally, CI reiterates that pending such determination, its rights 
are protected pursuant to injunctive orders and it strives to provide 
continuous service to its valued clients.

This is indeed important status information for CI clients to have (and as you 
observe quite proper for CI to issue), but with respect to overall legal 
dispute it does not appear (as far as I can discern from the little information 
provided) to reflect a situation that is significantly different from the 
existing status quo – just more claims made in litigation that will need to 
await eventually adjudication.

Again, given that these claims are still to be determined by the courts – and 
that even CI indicates that it cannot at this stage "disclose the substantive 
elements of its claim against AFRINIC” – it wouldn’t appear reasonable to 
expect significant updates on this situation from either party at this time.

Happy Holidays,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers














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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Mathanya Ramaboea]

How is any press release obstructing the court's job and misleading
the community? Here it is obviously directed at CI's clients, which is a
normal move from any private company.

Judging from the info in the statement published, I think necessity of
update should come from both AFRINIC and CI now, because there seems to be
a serious development in the case that has been kept from the community and
we should have an idea in whose favour that would be

Mathanya

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 11:16, DANIEL NANGHAKA  wrote:

> I wonder why some members can't let the court of law do its work.
>
> AFRINIC has provided updates to the community where necessity of the
> update is important.
>
> If CI is to do there press releases, there is no problem as it is also
> noted that they should present facts and not mislead the community.
>
> CI's press release looks vague and does not give detailed information. If
> you do a press release then present the exact issues otherwise just shut up
> and let the courts do there job.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 23:08 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>> Are you saying that the cloud innovation press release contains false,
>> misleading, or inaccurate defamatory claims about afrinic?
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 12:38, John Curran  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> On 28 Dec 2021, at 2:49 PM, Mathanya Ramaboea 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I highly appreciate CI's good communication with its clients regarding
>> the development of the lawsuit but I also agree that it would be good to
>> see what AFRINIC also has to say on the matter, to its members and everyone
>> else in the community. It is normal that the case involves a certain level
>> of confidentiality but from Cheken's link it appears that AFRINIC has
>> "repeatedly breached the Judge's order and acted in contempt of the
>> court'', so at what cost? How would this reflect on the outcome of the
>> litigation and everyone impacted?
>>
>>
>> Reference:  https://afrinic.net/court-cases
>>
>> Given that one of the matters of litigation is a claim of defamation by
>> Cloud Innovation against AFRINIC as a result of AFRINIC’s past
>> communications to the community about the cases, it would not surprise me
>> in the least if AFRINIC were to be quite reticent about further
>> communications on these legal matters – I know that I would be if ARIN
>> faced similar circumstances, even if it went further so as to include
>> specious representations to our community about their status.
>>
>> FYI,
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[DANIEL NANGHAKA]

I wonder why some members can't let the court of law do its work.

AFRINIC has provided updates to the community where necessity of the update
is important.

If CI is to do there press releases, there is no problem as it is also
noted that they should present facts and not mislead the community.

CI's press release looks vague and does not give detailed information. If
you do a press release then present the exact issues otherwise just shut up
and let the courts do there job.




On Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 23:08 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:

> Are you saying that the cloud innovation press release contains false,
> misleading, or inaccurate defamatory claims about afrinic?
>
> Owen
>
>
> On Dec 28, 2021, at 12:38, John Curran  wrote:
>
> 
>
> On 28 Dec 2021, at 2:49 PM, Mathanya Ramaboea 
> wrote:
>
> I highly appreciate CI's good communication with its clients regarding the
> development of the lawsuit but I also agree that it would be good to see
> what AFRINIC also has to say on the matter, to its members and everyone
> else in the community. It is normal that the case involves a certain level
> of confidentiality but from Cheken's link it appears that AFRINIC has
> "repeatedly breached the Judge's order and acted in contempt of the
> court'', so at what cost? How would this reflect on the outcome of the
> litigation and everyone impacted?
>
>
> Reference:  https://afrinic.net/court-cases
>
> Given that one of the matters of litigation is a claim of defamation by
> Cloud Innovation against AFRINIC as a result of AFRINIC’s past
> communications to the community about the cases, it would not surprise me
> in the least if AFRINIC were to be quite reticent about further
> communications on these legal matters – I know that I would be if ARIN
> faced similar circumstances, even if it went further so as to include
> specious representations to our community about their status.
>
> FYI,
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

Are you saying that the cloud innovation press release contains false, 
misleading, or inaccurate defamatory claims about afrinic?

Owen


> On Dec 28, 2021, at 12:38, John Curran  wrote:
> 
>  
>> On 28 Dec 2021, at 2:49 PM, Mathanya Ramaboea  wrote:
>> 
>> I highly appreciate CI's good communication with its clients regarding the 
>> development of the lawsuit but I also agree that it would be good to see 
>> what AFRINIC also has to say on the matter, to its members and everyone else 
>> in the community. It is normal that the case involves a certain level of 
>> confidentiality but from Cheken's link it appears that AFRINIC has 
>> "repeatedly breached the Judge's order and acted in contempt of the court'', 
>> so at what cost? How would this reflect on the outcome of the litigation and 
>> everyone impacted?
> 
> Reference:  https://afrinic.net/court-cases
> 
> Given that one of the matters of litigation is a claim of defamation by Cloud 
> Innovation against AFRINIC as a result of AFRINIC’s past communications to 
> the community about the cases, it would not surprise me in the least if 
> AFRINIC were to be quite reticent about further communications on these legal 
> matters – I know that I would be if ARIN faced similar circumstances, even if 
> it went further so as to include specious representations to our community 
> about their status.
> 
> FYI,
> /John
> 
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[John Curran]

On 28 Dec 2021, at 2:49 PM, Mathanya Ramaboea 
mailto:mathanyaw...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I highly appreciate CI's good communication with its clients regarding the 
development of the lawsuit but I also agree that it would be good to see what 
AFRINIC also has to say on the matter, to its members and everyone else in the 
community. It is normal that the case involves a certain level of 
confidentiality but from Cheken's link it appears that AFRINIC has "repeatedly 
breached the Judge's order and acted in contempt of the court'', so at what 
cost? How would this reflect on the outcome of the litigation and everyone 
impacted?

Reference:  https://afrinic.net/court-cases

Given that one of the matters of litigation is a claim of defamation by Cloud 
Innovation against AFRINIC as a result of AFRINIC’s past communications to the 
community about the cases, it would not surprise me in the least if AFRINIC 
were to be quite reticent about further communications on these legal matters – 
I know that I would be if ARIN faced similar circumstances, even if it went 
further so as to include specious representations to our community about their 
status.

FYI,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers




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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Mathanya Ramaboea]

I highly appreciate CI's good communication with its clients regarding the
development of the lawsuit but I also agree that it would be good to see
what AFRINIC also has to say on the matter, to its members and everyone
else in the community. It is normal that the case involves a certain level
of confidentiality but from Cheken's link it appears that AFRINIC has
"repeatedly breached the Judge's order and acted in contempt of the
court'', so at what cost? How would this reflect on the outcome of the
litigation and everyone impacted?

Mathanya

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 at 17:26, sisoko daze  wrote:

> Ibeanusi made a good point, but Mike made a much better point.
>
> I must say afrinic and cloud innovation/larus are really duking it out at
> each other's throat, seeing how even afrinic is breaching court's order
> based on the link provided by Cheken. But i'll hold my reservations until i
> hear afrinic's side of their update. Would be nice to see what afrinic has
> to say on that.
>
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021, 4:37 pm Mike Silber,  wrote:
>
>> The key difference is that when AfriNIC shares an update, it is from an
>> organizational email account and the person’s affiliation is clearly stated.
>>
>> It is not paid shills pretending to be objective and impartial “community
>> members” yet pushing a specific (and presumably paid) objective.
>>
>> I consider this “astroturfing”, but it is a distinction without a
>> difference.
>>
>> Maybe if you and others of your ilk were more honest about your
>> affiliation - the community would find your interventions less
>> objectionable. Certainly I would appreciate more transparency and less
>> pretense.
>>
>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 at 05:40, Ibeanusi Elvis 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> This “sockpuppet” ideology and terminology that has become an
>>> excessively overused irrelevant term in this mailing list. What is wrong
>>> with sharing a link of interest or a link that a member consider relevant
>>> to him/herself. Freedom of expression is always promoted in this community
>>> as long as it does not go out of line. Members of this community including
>>> the AFRINIC organization itself always share updates and links; never have
>>> it been considered an act of being a “Sockpuppet”. Lets stop throwing words
>>> around in this community mailing list and create unwanted confusion.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Elvis.
>>>
>>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:26, Serah Eazy  wrote:
>>>
>>> I don’t see anything wrong with someone sharing a link of interest to
>>> some mailing lists. The past updates have been shared by AFRINIC itself or
>>> a community member that wanted to transmit the information and hardly
>>> anyone considered that a « sockpuppet » act. Only the two parties involved
>>> in the litigation are informed of the case’s latest development and it’s
>>> always appreciated when one of them releases a statement to update us about
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Warm Regards
>>> Oluwabunmi
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 9:08 PM Martin Hannigan 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 Not sure you do TBH. We (should) all know this is a sock puppet.

 What would be great is if a reputable and neutral press outlet took
 interest.

 Warm regards,

 -M<



 On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:54 Chris Woodfield 
 wrote:

> It pains me to feel like I have to state the obvious, but a PR release
> from one of the parties in this dispute can hardly be considered a notable
> development worth posting to every RIR’s mailing list.
>
> -C
>
> On Dec 26, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Cheken Chetty 
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I believe the Internet community is still concerned with the ongoings
> of the lawsuit between Cloud Innovation and AFRINIC. Here's a post I saw
> recently :
>
> https://cloudinnovation.org/press-release3.html.
>
> Regards
> ___
> ARIN-PPML
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net).
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> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[sisoko daze]

Ibeanusi made a good point, but Mike made a much better point.

I must say afrinic and cloud innovation/larus are really duking it out at
each other's throat, seeing how even afrinic is breaching court's order
based on the link provided by Cheken. But i'll hold my reservations until i
hear afrinic's side of their update. Would be nice to see what afrinic has
to say on that.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021, 4:37 pm Mike Silber,  wrote:

> The key difference is that when AfriNIC shares an update, it is from an
> organizational email account and the person’s affiliation is clearly stated.
>
> It is not paid shills pretending to be objective and impartial “community
> members” yet pushing a specific (and presumably paid) objective.
>
> I consider this “astroturfing”, but it is a distinction without a
> difference.
>
> Maybe if you and others of your ilk were more honest about your
> affiliation - the community would find your interventions less
> objectionable. Certainly I would appreciate more transparency and less
> pretense.
>
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 at 05:40, Ibeanusi Elvis 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> This “sockpuppet” ideology and terminology that has become an excessively
>> overused irrelevant term in this mailing list. What is wrong with sharing a
>> link of interest or a link that a member consider relevant to him/herself.
>> Freedom of expression is always promoted in this community as long as it
>> does not go out of line. Members of this community including the AFRINIC
>> organization itself always share updates and links; never have it been
>> considered an act of being a “Sockpuppet”. Lets stop throwing words around
>> in this community mailing list and create unwanted confusion.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Elvis.
>>
>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:26, Serah Eazy  wrote:
>>
>> I don’t see anything wrong with someone sharing a link of interest to
>> some mailing lists. The past updates have been shared by AFRINIC itself or
>> a community member that wanted to transmit the information and hardly
>> anyone considered that a « sockpuppet » act. Only the two parties involved
>> in the litigation are informed of the case’s latest development and it’s
>> always appreciated when one of them releases a statement to update us about
>> it.
>>
>> Warm Regards
>> Oluwabunmi
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 9:08 PM Martin Hannigan  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Not sure you do TBH. We (should) all know this is a sock puppet.
>>>
>>> What would be great is if a reputable and neutral press outlet took
>>> interest.
>>>
>>> Warm regards,
>>>
>>> -M<
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:54 Chris Woodfield 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 It pains me to feel like I have to state the obvious, but a PR release
 from one of the parties in this dispute can hardly be considered a notable
 development worth posting to every RIR’s mailing list.

 -C

 On Dec 26, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Cheken Chetty 
 wrote:

 Hi all,

 I believe the Internet community is still concerned with the ongoings
 of the lawsuit between Cloud Innovation and AFRINIC. Here's a post I saw
 recently :

 https://cloudinnovation.org/press-release3.html.

 Regards
 ___
 ARIN-PPML
 You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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 Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
 https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
 Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience any issues.


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 Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
 https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
 Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience any issues.

>>> ___
>>> ARIN-PPML
>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net).
>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
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>>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Mark Tinka]

On 12/28/21 10:36, Mike Silber wrote:
The key difference is that when AfriNIC shares an update, it is from 
an organizational email account and the person’s affiliation is 
clearly stated.


It is not paid shills pretending to be objective and impartial 
“community members” yet pushing a specific (and presumably paid) 
objective.


I consider this “astroturfing”, but it is a distinction without a 
difference.


Maybe if you and others of your ilk were more honest about your 
affiliation - the community would find your interventions less 
objectionable. Certainly I would appreciate more transparency and less 
pretense.


100%.

Mark.

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Murungi Daniel via Community-Discuss]

Right on Mike. Thank you.

Regards,
Daniel 


> On Dec 28, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Mike Silber  wrote:
> 
> The key difference is that when AfriNIC shares an update, it is from an 
> organizational email account and the person’s affiliation is clearly stated.
> 
> It is not paid shills pretending to be objective and impartial “community 
> members” yet pushing a specific (and presumably paid) objective.
> 
> I consider this “astroturfing”, but it is a distinction without a difference.
> 
> Maybe if you and others of your ilk were more honest about your affiliation - 
> the community would find your interventions less objectionable. Certainly I 
> would appreciate more transparency and less pretense.
> 
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 at 05:40, Ibeanusi Elvis  > wrote:
> Hello All, 
> 
> This “sockpuppet” ideology and terminology that has become an excessively 
> overused irrelevant term in this mailing list. What is wrong with sharing a 
> link of interest or a link that a member consider relevant to him/herself. 
> Freedom of expression is always promoted in this community as long as it does 
> not go out of line. Members of this community including the AFRINIC 
> organization itself always share updates and links; never have it been 
> considered an act of being a “Sockpuppet”. Lets stop throwing words around in 
> this community mailing list and create unwanted confusion. 
> 
> Regards, 
> Elvis. 
> 
>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:26, Serah Eazy > > wrote:
>> 
>> I don’t see anything wrong with someone sharing a link of interest to some 
>> mailing lists. The past updates have been shared by AFRINIC itself or a 
>> community member that wanted to transmit the information and hardly anyone 
>> considered that a « sockpuppet » act. Only the two parties involved in the 
>> litigation are informed of the case’s latest development and it’s always 
>> appreciated when one of them releases a statement to update us about it.
>> 
>> Warm Regards
>> Oluwabunmi
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 9:08 PM Martin Hannigan > > wrote:
>> 
>> Not sure you do TBH. We (should) all know this is a sock puppet. 
>> 
>> What would be great is if a reputable and neutral press outlet took 
>> interest. 
>> 
>> Warm regards,
>> 
>> -M<
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:54 Chris Woodfield > > wrote:
>> It pains me to feel like I have to state the obvious, but a PR release from 
>> one of the parties in this dispute can hardly be considered a notable 
>> development worth posting to every RIR’s mailing list.
>> 
>> -C
>> 
>>> On Dec 26, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Cheken Chetty >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all, 
>>> 
>>> I believe the Internet community is still concerned with the ongoings of 
>>> the lawsuit between Cloud Innovation and AFRINIC. Here's a post I saw 
>>> recently : 
>>> 
>>> https://cloudinnovation.org/press-release3.html 
>>> .
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> ___
>>> ARIN-PPML
>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net 
>>> ).
>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml 
>>> 
>>> Please contact i...@arin.net  if you experience any 
>>> issues.
>> 
>> ___
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>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net 
>> ).
>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml 
>> 
>> Please contact i...@arin.net  if you experience any 
>> issues.
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>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net 
>> ).
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>> 
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>> issues.
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Mike Silber]

The key difference is that when AfriNIC shares an update, it is from an
organizational email account and the person’s affiliation is clearly stated.

It is not paid shills pretending to be objective and impartial “community
members” yet pushing a specific (and presumably paid) objective.

I consider this “astroturfing”, but it is a distinction without a
difference.

Maybe if you and others of your ilk were more honest about your affiliation
- the community would find your interventions less objectionable. Certainly
I would appreciate more transparency and less pretense.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 at 05:40, Ibeanusi Elvis 
wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> This “sockpuppet” ideology and terminology that has become an excessively
> overused irrelevant term in this mailing list. What is wrong with sharing a
> link of interest or a link that a member consider relevant to him/herself.
> Freedom of expression is always promoted in this community as long as it
> does not go out of line. Members of this community including the AFRINIC
> organization itself always share updates and links; never have it been
> considered an act of being a “Sockpuppet”. Lets stop throwing words around
> in this community mailing list and create unwanted confusion.
>
> Regards,
> Elvis.
>
> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:26, Serah Eazy  wrote:
>
> I don’t see anything wrong with someone sharing a link of interest to some
> mailing lists. The past updates have been shared by AFRINIC itself or a
> community member that wanted to transmit the information and hardly anyone
> considered that a « sockpuppet » act. Only the two parties involved in the
> litigation are informed of the case’s latest development and it’s always
> appreciated when one of them releases a statement to update us about it.
>
> Warm Regards
> Oluwabunmi
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 9:08 PM Martin Hannigan  wrote:
>
>>
>> Not sure you do TBH. We (should) all know this is a sock puppet.
>>
>> What would be great is if a reputable and neutral press outlet took
>> interest.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> -M<
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:54 Chris Woodfield 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It pains me to feel like I have to state the obvious, but a PR release
>>> from one of the parties in this dispute can hardly be considered a notable
>>> development worth posting to every RIR’s mailing list.
>>>
>>> -C
>>>
>>> On Dec 26, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Cheken Chetty 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I believe the Internet community is still concerned with the ongoings of
>>> the lawsuit between Cloud Innovation and AFRINIC. Here's a post I saw
>>> recently :
>>>
>>> https://cloudinnovation.org/press-release3.html.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> ___
>>> ARIN-PPML
>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net).
>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>>> Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> ARIN-PPML
>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net).
>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>>> Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>
>> ___
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>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net).
>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Ibeanusi Elvis]

Hello All,

This “sockpuppet” ideology and terminology that has become an excessively
overused irrelevant term in this mailing list. What is wrong with sharing a
link of interest or a link that a member consider relevant to him/herself.
Freedom of expression is always promoted in this community as long as it
does not go out of line. Members of this community including the AFRINIC
organization itself always share updates and links; never have it been
considered an act of being a “Sockpuppet”. Lets stop throwing words around
in this community mailing list and create unwanted confusion.

Regards,
Elvis.

On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:26, Serah Eazy  wrote:

I don’t see anything wrong with someone sharing a link of interest to some
mailing lists. The past updates have been shared by AFRINIC itself or a
community member that wanted to transmit the information and hardly anyone
considered that a « sockpuppet » act. Only the two parties involved in the
litigation are informed of the case’s latest development and it’s always
appreciated when one of them releases a statement to update us about it.

Warm Regards
Oluwabunmi


On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 9:08 PM Martin Hannigan  wrote:

>
> Not sure you do TBH. We (should) all know this is a sock puppet.
>
> What would be great is if a reputable and neutral press outlet took
> interest.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> -M<
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:54 Chris Woodfield  wrote:
>
>> It pains me to feel like I have to state the obvious, but a PR release
>> from one of the parties in this dispute can hardly be considered a notable
>> development worth posting to every RIR’s mailing list.
>>
>> -C
>>
>> On Dec 26, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Cheken Chetty 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I believe the Internet community is still concerned with the ongoings of
>> the lawsuit between Cloud Innovation and AFRINIC. Here's a post I saw
>> recently :
>>
>> https://cloudinnovation.org/press-release3.html.
>>
>> Regards
>> ___
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net).
>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>> Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net).
>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>> Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [arin-ppml] Update on Litigation Between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation ltd

[Serah Eazy]

I don’t see anything wrong with someone sharing a link of interest to some
mailing lists. The past updates have been shared by AFRINIC itself or a
community member that wanted to transmit the information and hardly anyone
considered that a « sockpuppet » act. Only the two parties involved in the
litigation are informed of the case’s latest development and it’s always
appreciated when one of them releases a statement to update us about it.

Warm Regards
Oluwabunmi


On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 9:08 PM Martin Hannigan  wrote:

>
> Not sure you do TBH. We (should) all know this is a sock puppet.
>
> What would be great is if a reputable and neutral press outlet took
> interest.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> -M<
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:54 Chris Woodfield  wrote:
>
>> It pains me to feel like I have to state the obvious, but a PR release
>> from one of the parties in this dispute can hardly be considered a notable
>> development worth posting to every RIR’s mailing list.
>>
>> -C
>>
>> On Dec 26, 2021, at 3:45 AM, Cheken Chetty 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I believe the Internet community is still concerned with the ongoings of
>> the lawsuit between Cloud Innovation and AFRINIC. Here's a post I saw
>> recently :
>>
>> https://cloudinnovation.org/press-release3.html.
>>
>> Regards
>> ___
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (arin-p...@arin.net).
>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>> Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
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