Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Ish Sookun]

Hi Owen,

On 6/12/19 3:27 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
> I admit I am not an expert in law and have little understanding of Mauritian
> law in particular, but it seems rather absurd to me that a document which
> can be inspected at will or “made available upon request” would somehow
> preclude further publication or dissemination of the data contained in the
> document.

It seems to me that most people are considering only names & addresses
as being personal data in the document uploaded by AFRINIC.

Court judgments are public records available from the court registry.
Some court judgments are also available in PDF format from the Supreme
Court of Mauritius website. The judgment documents available on the
Supreme Court website do not contain any further annex or personal data
of individuals.

The consent given to one entity does not automatically transfer to
another. The Registrar of Companies provides access to company records.
Does the registrar give rights to re-publish those records?

IMHO obtaining data and re-publishing data are not the same.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

> On Jun 11, 2019, at 12:54 AM, Ish Sookun  wrote:
> 
> Hi Owen,
> 
> On 5/28/19 9:13 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> Indeed, the one and only legitimate item on the agenda was then deferred
>> to the next meeting followed  by, perhaps, the most absurd question and
>> most ridiculous answer in the entire set of minutes:
>> 
>>“The Chair asked the Board whether there is a need to seek SM’s
>>consent before the public release of the Court Rulings.”
>> 
>> 
>> Let me get this straight… The Chair felt compelled to ask the board
>> whether or not they needed the consent of a single board member (which I
>> see no particular reason to ask this particular board member and there
>> is no explanation in the minutes) prior to the public release of a
>> document which is ALREADY PUBLIC? How can the board possibly do anything
>> before the public release of a document which was, by definition,
>> publicly released at the time the board received it?
> 
> I do not agree with your statement that this is an absurd question. In
> fact, I believe it is a legitimate requirement to have the person's
> consent before publishing any document that contains personal
> information about the person.

If their information is already on a document which is ARLEADY PUBLIC, then 
either they gave their consent (as is the case with board members when they 
sign on as directors of the company, by law, and is also the case for parties 
to a legal proceeding in most cases) to the publication of the information or 
their information was already published without their consent. The further 
publication of that material to a group that already has access to it via other 
means does not, in any case, cause further harm, so it is an absurd question.

> AFRINIC Ltd being a registered company in Mauritius has to abide to the
> Data Protection Act [1] of Mauritius.

Yes, but there’s nothing in the DPA of Mauritius that requires one to hold 
public information which has already been published by a court of law as 
private. Anyone is free to publish any public court document as far and as wide 
as they wish to the best of my knowledge.

In the board minutes, it seems clear that Ashok feels this is an appropriate 
interpretation of the situation. If you disagree, I think you should, perhaps 
take it up with him.

> In fact, on the same note, I notice that the privacy statement [2] of
> afrinic.net dates back to September 2015 and refers the Data Protection
> Act 2004 instead of the 2017's amended act.

So what? What we’re talking about here isn’t anyone’s private information, 
we’re talking about a public court document which was published by the court 
and is a matter of public record.

Owen

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ish Sookun
> 
> [1]
> http://dataprotection.govmu.org/English/Publications/Documents/Act%20No.%2020%20-%20The%20Data%20Protection%20Act%202017.pdf
> 
> [2] https://afrinic.net/privacy

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

> On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:27 AM, Noah  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2019, 15:27 Mike Silber,  > wrote:
> Hi Ish
> 
> > On 11 Jun 2019, at 14:08, Ish Sookun  > > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Right. I will seek the advice of the Data Protection Office on this matter.
> > 
> I look forward to their response.
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > I quote from https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf 
> > 
> > 
> >  « SM recalled that the Board collectively agreed to take the AGMM
> >matter to Court and there was no decision about disclosing the
> >personal data to the community. It was just a matter of when to
> >disclose the information and what to disclose. It is not because
> >the document is public, that we can disclose to the public mailing
> >list. »
> > 
> > Am I reading the wrong or inaccurate minutes?
> 
> You will note reference in the quote above to "personal data” and then 
> “information” and then the fact that “the document is public”. The minutes do 
> not indicate the difference between these terms and are imprecise.
> 
> For that reason I questioned whether they are perhaps inaccurate. Are you 
> able to surmise a logical reading of the above? In which case - please share 
> it and the basis on which you draw such conclusion.
> 
> 
> There is precedence for redacting public documents for various reasons before 
> publishing them. In this case, there seemed to be a concern of data 
> protection in light of the local data protection laws.

There is precedent for the public agency publishing the document in the first 
place to redact it, sure.

There is no precedent or rationale for anyone else to further redact a document 
which can be obtained in its unreacted form by any member of the public.

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

> On Jun 11, 2019, at 12:10 PM, Ish Sookun  wrote:
> 
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> On 6/11/19 9:45 PM, Andrew Alston wrote:
>> I point you to the companies act of 2001, section 225 sub-section 2(d) 
>> which states that ANY person upon serving written notice on the company
>> of his intention to inspect the records shall be given access to the
>> full names and residential addresses of directors. The companies act
>> makes this public data and strips any right to expectation of privacy
>> from a director – since they chose to be a director and should have read
>> the act.
> 
> The affidavit has more personal information than just names &
> residential addresses.
> 
> The Registrar of Companies of Mauritius requires the name and other
> personal data of persons who consent to be a company director. Registrar
> records are made accessible to public upon request. It does not
> automatically turn that information into public data; i.e giving another
> entity the right to re-publish without authorization.

Actually, as I understand most common law, any item which is considered
a “matter of public record” can be freely republished by third parties.

I admit I am not an expert in law and have little understanding of Mauritian
law in particular, but it seems rather absurd to me that a document which
can be inspected at will or “made available upon request” would somehow
preclude further publication or dissemination of the data contained in the
document.

Owen


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Ish Sookun]

Hi Andrew,

On 6/11/19 9:45 PM, Andrew Alston wrote:
> I point you to the companies act of 2001, section 225 sub-section 2(d) 
> which states that ANY person upon serving written notice on the company
> of his intention to inspect the records shall be given access to the
> full names and residential addresses of directors. The companies act
> makes this public data and strips any right to expectation of privacy
> from a director – since they chose to be a director and should have read
> the act.

The affidavit has more personal information than just names &
residential addresses.

The Registrar of Companies of Mauritius requires the name and other
personal data of persons who consent to be a company director. Registrar
records are made accessible to public upon request. It does not
automatically turn that information into public data; i.e giving another
entity the right to re-publish without authorization.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Andrew Alston]

Ish,

I point you to the companies act of 2001, section 225 sub-section 2(d)  which 
states that ANY person upon serving written notice on the company of his 
intention to inspect the records shall be given access to the full names and 
residential addresses of directors. The companies act makes this public data 
and strips any right to expectation of privacy from a director – since they 
chose to be a director and should have read the act.

Thanks

Andrew



From: Ish Sookun 
Sent: Tuesday, 11 June 2019 15:09
To: Mike Silber 
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

Hi Mike,

On 6/11/19 2:10 PM, Mike Silber wrote:
>
> No - but I can point you to the Companies Act as well as form S23-F10
> and Section 23 of the DPA
>

The information provided in the forms are collected & processed by the
Registrar of Companies of Mauritius. The personal data that is subject
to this discussion was published by AFRINIC Ltd.

> I suggest you raise your concern with the Corporate and Business
> Registration Department and not with AfriNIC, this community or myself.
>

Right. I will seek the advice of the Data Protection Office on this matter.

>
> This is illogical, as ALL addresses were redacted. Maybe the minutes are
> inaccurate?
>

I quote from 
https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf<https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf>

« SM recalled that the Board collectively agreed to take the AGMM
matter to Court and there was no decision about disclosing the
personal data to the community. It was just a matter of when to
disclose the information and what to disclose. It is not because
the document is public, that we can disclose to the public mailing
list. »

Am I reading the wrong or inaccurate minutes?

Regards,

Ish Sookun

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Noah]

On Tue, 11 Jun 2019, 15:27 Mike Silber,  wrote:

> Hi Ish
>
> > On 11 Jun 2019, at 14:08, Ish Sookun  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Right. I will seek the advice of the Data Protection Office on this
> matter.
> >
> I look forward to their response.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I quote from
> https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf
> >
> >  « SM recalled that the Board collectively agreed to take the AGMM
> >matter to Court and there was no decision about disclosing the
> >personal data to the community. It was just a matter of when to
> >disclose the information and what to disclose. It is not because
> >the document is public, that we can disclose to the public mailing
> >list. »
> >
> > Am I reading the wrong or inaccurate minutes?
>
> You will note reference in the quote above to "personal data” and then
> “information” and then the fact that “the document is public”. The minutes
> do not indicate the difference between these terms and are imprecise.
>
> For that reason I questioned whether they are perhaps inaccurate. Are you
> able to surmise a logical reading of the above? In which case - please
> share it and the basis on which you draw such conclusion.
>


There is precedence for redacting public documents for various reasons
before publishing them. In this case, there seemed to be a concern of data
protection in light of the local data protection laws.

Cheers
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mike Silber]

Hi Ish

> On 11 Jun 2019, at 14:08, Ish Sookun  wrote:
> 
> 
> Right. I will seek the advice of the Data Protection Office on this matter.
> 
I look forward to their response.
>> 
>> 
> 
> I quote from https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf
> 
>  « SM recalled that the Board collectively agreed to take the AGMM
>matter to Court and there was no decision about disclosing the
>personal data to the community. It was just a matter of when to
>disclose the information and what to disclose. It is not because
>the document is public, that we can disclose to the public mailing
>list. »
> 
> Am I reading the wrong or inaccurate minutes?

You will note reference in the quote above to "personal data” and then 
“information” and then the fact that “the document is public”. The minutes do 
not indicate the difference between these terms and are imprecise.

For that reason I questioned whether they are perhaps inaccurate. Are you able 
to surmise a logical reading of the above? In which case - please share it and 
the basis on which you draw such conclusion.


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Ish Sookun]

Hi Mike,

On 6/11/19 2:10 PM, Mike Silber wrote:
> 
> No - but I can point you to the Companies Act as well as form S23-F10
> and Section 23 of the DPA
> 

The information provided in the forms are collected & processed by the
Registrar of Companies of Mauritius. The personal data that is subject
to this discussion was published by AFRINIC Ltd.

> I suggest you raise your concern with the Corporate and Business
> Registration Department and not with AfriNIC, this community or myself.
> 

Right. I will seek the advice of the Data Protection Office on this matter.

> 
> This is illogical, as ALL addresses were redacted. Maybe the minutes are
> inaccurate?
> 

I quote from https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf

  « SM recalled that the Board collectively agreed to take the AGMM
matter to Court and there was no decision about disclosing the
personal data to the community. It was just a matter of when to
disclose the information and what to disclose. It is not because
the document is public, that we can disclose to the public mailing
list. »

Am I reading the wrong or inaccurate minutes?

Regards,

Ish Sookun

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mike Silber]

Hi Ish

> On 11 Jun 2019, at 12:55, Ish Sookun  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> On 6/11/19 1:03 PM, Mike Silber wrote:
>> By agreeing to become a director of a company one expressly and implicitly 
>> consents to the publication of personal information in the context of the 
>> company.
>> 
> 
> The "context of the company" is a vague statement.
> 
> The DPA is strict on the fact & stresses that information collected,
> processed & stored are for specific use & period, and the person has the
> right to object to use of that information.
> 
> Could you point me to any documentation by AFRINIC Ltd that specifies
> that when becoming a director one "expressly and implicitly consents to
> the publication of personal information”.

No - but I can point you to the Companies Act as well as form S23-F10 and 
Section 23 of the DPA

I suggest you raise your concern with the Corporate and Business Registration 
Department and not with AfriNIC, this community or myself.

> 
>> There is no suggestion that the consent related to the publication of the 
>> person’s address (which was redacted in any event) but the use of his name.
> 
> I understood that the person raised that no decision was taken with
> regards to the publication of personal data. The minutes do not refer to
> the use of the person's name.
> 

This is illogical, as ALL addresses were redacted. Maybe the minutes are 
inaccurate?

Mike

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Ish Sookun]

Hi Mike,

On 6/11/19 1:03 PM, Mike Silber wrote:
> By agreeing to become a director of a company one expressly and implicitly 
> consents to the publication of personal information in the context of the 
> company.
> 

The "context of the company" is a vague statement.

The DPA is strict on the fact & stresses that information collected,
processed & stored are for specific use & period, and the person has the
right to object to use of that information.

Could you point me to any documentation by AFRINIC Ltd that specifies
that when becoming a director one "expressly and implicitly consents to
the publication of personal information".

> There is no suggestion that the consent related to the publication of the 
> person’s address (which was redacted in any event) but the use of his name.

I understood that the person raised that no decision was taken with
regards to the publication of personal data. The minutes do not refer to
the use of the person's name.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mike Silber]

Hi Ish

> On 11 Jun 2019, at 09:54, Ish Sookun  wrote:
>> 
> 
> I do not agree with your statement that this is an absurd question. In
> fact, I believe it is a legitimate requirement to have the person's
> consent before publishing any document that contains personal
> information about the person.

By agreeing to become a director of a company one expressly and implicitly 
consents to the publication of personal information in the context of the 
company.

There is no suggestion that the consent related to the publication of the 
person’s address (which was redacted in any event) but the use of his name.

Regards

Mike


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Ish Sookun]

Hi Owen,

On 5/28/19 9:13 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
> Indeed, the one and only legitimate item on the agenda was then deferred
> to the next meeting followed  by, perhaps, the most absurd question and
> most ridiculous answer in the entire set of minutes:
> 
> “The Chair asked the Board whether there is a need to seek SM’s
> consent before the public release of the Court Rulings.”
> 
> 
> Let me get this straight… The Chair felt compelled to ask the board
> whether or not they needed the consent of a single board member (which I
> see no particular reason to ask this particular board member and there
> is no explanation in the minutes) prior to the public release of a
> document which is ALREADY PUBLIC? How can the board possibly do anything
> before the public release of a document which was, by definition,
> publicly released at the time the board received it?

I do not agree with your statement that this is an absurd question. In
fact, I believe it is a legitimate requirement to have the person's
consent before publishing any document that contains personal
information about the person.

AFRINIC Ltd being a registered company in Mauritius has to abide to the
Data Protection Act [1] of Mauritius.

In fact, on the same note, I notice that the privacy statement [2] of
afrinic.net dates back to September 2015 and refers the Data Protection
Act 2004 instead of the 2017's amended act.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

[1]
http://dataprotection.govmu.org/English/Publications/Documents/Act%20No.%2020%20-%20The%20Data%20Protection%20Act%202017.pdf

[2] https://afrinic.net/privacy

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

> On Jun 6, 2019, at 09:43 , Noah  wrote:
> 
> Owen,
> 
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 8:39 AM Owen DeLong  > wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jun 3, 2019, at 21:32 , Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>> Selective Memory………
> 
> Not deliberately so, but I will admit that from the vague and ambiguous 
> description below, I am unable to reassemble a memory of what you are 
> referring to.
> 
> I still insist selective memory……..

You may insist on whatever you like. That still doesn’t make it factual. (See 
current US President for multiple examples).

>> If we are going to throw around the narrative of folks on the board acting 
>> acting in bad faith, may I remind some of the members castigating the board 
>> in defense of a respectable employee who chose to resign from their position 
>> for reasons unknown to all of us but are now using the specific board 
>> minutes to go after the board for suspiciously other unknown reasons,  about 
>> the history of the so called mighty NDA.
> 
> Can you translate this out of doublespeak and into facts?
> 
> The specific board minutes are being used to castigate two specific board 
> members which have been named (Serge Ilunga and Cristian Bope) because they 
> acted in bad faith bringing two motions to criticize fellow board members for 
> disclosing information which was already public, allegedly because it 
> violated the NDA since the board had (possibly ex post facto, though the 
> timeline is admittedly not 100% clear from the minutes) decided (for reasons 
> passing understanding) to delay publication.
> 
> 
> You realize 100% of issues discussed in board meetings tend to refer to 
> already publicly available information right. Therefore It’s the context of 
> the discussion and once the board deems to release a statement in future all 
> board members become bound to that decision period.

No… This is not at all an accurate statement.

Further, we are not talking about the release of the context of the discussion 
or any of the content of those discussions. In this case, we are talking about 
the release of a document which was already 100% public. We are talking about 
publishing an already published work unedited, unaltered, and indistinguishable 
from its already public form.

Attempting to control it’s release is as patently absurd as trying to prohibit 
sending a copy of ICP-2 to the list.

>> If we remember correctly recent events dating back a couple of years ago 
>> when the whole breach of NDA issue surfaced before members and the 
>> community,  you will realize that one of the vocal members here used the NDA 
>> to defend what I would probably call the most unethical boardroom behaviors 
>> and tactics a few years ago from what we learned as a community. In fact the 
>> board chair at the time had reducted board minutes and presented to the 
>> community what was purely misinformation in the name of the NDA.
> 
> If you’re referring to Andrew’s various tirades claiming he was unable to 
> disclose details due to board NDA, then I will let him answer for that alone. 
> While I have found myself agreeing with Andrew about many things, I have 
> never supported his particular style of communication, nor have I ever 
> supported his unsubstantiated rants.
> 
> My reference dates back to the events of the meeting in Tunisia a couple of 
> years ago when the then board members Badru and Paulos had to resign from the 
> board over NDA related matters.

OK, well, let’s now consider what you previously said in that proper context…

“One of the vocal members here used the NDA to defend what I would probably 
call the most unethical boardroom behaviors and tactics…”

Here, I have to presume you are referring to Andrew Alston refusing to disclose 
certain details of what happened because he felt bound by NDA. If that’s not 
the case, then please clarify.

Yes, there was an issue where the board char had redacted the board minutes. I 
agree this should not have been done and was a misguided act by said chair. I 
believe I said as much at the time.

Nonetheless, Badru and Paolos both did actually violate the NDA and did 
actually disclose material information which was not previously published 
anywhere else and which was subject to the NDA and was considered board 
confidential.

If you cannot see a difference between that situation and this one, then I am 
not sure how I can help you. To me, they are night and day.

Remember, also, that later a certain board chair fell on that same sword for a 
less public inappropriate disclosure of confidential information.

As much as I liked said board chair and as disappointed as I was by his bad 
judgment in that case, if you will recall, once there was evidence he violated 
the NDA, I supported the call for his resignation.

This time, you have two board members who disclosed an already public document 
which is clearly and distinctly excluded from the NDA as I have previously 
shown. 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Noah]

Owen,

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 8:39 AM Owen DeLong  wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 3, 2019, at 21:32 , Noah  wrote:
>
> Owen
>
> Selective Memory………
>
>
> Not deliberately so, but I will admit that from the vague and ambiguous
> description below, I am unable to reassemble a memory of what you are
> referring to.
>

I still insist selective memory


> If we are going to throw around the narrative of folks on the board acting
> acting in bad faith, may I remind some of the members castigating the board
> in defense of a respectable employee who chose to resign from their
> position for reasons unknown to all of us but are now using the specific
> board minutes to go after the board for suspiciously other unknown
> reasons,  about the history of the so called mighty NDA.
>
>
> Can you translate this out of doublespeak and into facts?
>
> The specific board minutes are being used to castigate two specific board
> members which have been named (Serge Ilunga and Cristian Bope) because they
> acted in bad faith bringing two motions to criticize fellow board members
> for disclosing information which was already public, allegedly because it
> violated the NDA since the board had (possibly ex post facto, though the
> timeline is admittedly not 100% clear from the minutes) decided (for
> reasons passing understanding) to delay publication.
>
>
You realize 100% of issues discussed in board meetings tend to refer to
already publicly available information right. Therefore It’s the context of
the discussion and once the board deems to release a statement in future
all board members become bound to that decision period.

If we remember correctly recent events dating back a couple of years ago
> when the whole breach of NDA issue surfaced before members and the
> community,  you will realize that one of the vocal members here used the
> NDA to defend what I would probably call the most unethical boardroom
> behaviors and tactics a few years ago from what we learned as a community.
> In fact the board chair at the time had reducted board minutes and
> presented to the community what was purely misinformation in the name of
> the NDA.
>
>
> If you’re referring to Andrew’s various tirades claiming he was unable to
> disclose details due to board NDA, then I will let him answer for that
> alone. While I have found myself agreeing with Andrew about many things, I
> have never supported his particular style of communication, nor have I ever
> supported his unsubstantiated rants.
>

My reference dates back to the events of the meeting in Tunisia a couple of
years ago when the then board members Badru and Paulos had to resign from
the board over NDA related matters.


> Two Board members at the time acted against this and released the
> unreducted minutes to the community.  A number of board members called for
> the two to resign so as to make a statement to the community which they did
> and years  later we came to learn that the same folks who led the call for
> resignation of directors, years later did exactly the same thing of
> releasing information that the board had not yet decided to release.
>
>
> In this particular case, the board members in question released material
> that WAS NOT PUBLIC prior to their disclosure.
>

Again back to the Tunis meeting, If you listen to the meeting discussions
in Tunis on the floor the day before all issues had been discussed and
vigorously denied by the then board member Andrew and the Board chair on
the floor.  The community then asked for the said minutes which had not
been released and the board then were asked to release the info.  So the
issue was already public.



> Do you not see the difference between material that is not already public
> and a document which is by definition a matter of public record? Is it
> really so hard to make this distinction?
>

Again please go and review the Tunis discussions for your answer.


> If you will recall, many of those same community members also called for
> the resignation of Sunday Folayan on the same basis. I won’t speak for the
> others, but at least in my case, I had to agree that selective enforcement
> is an unacceptable path.
>

Your memory seems to be failing you my friend.  I was referring to the
resignation of Badru and Paulo way before Sundays resignation which was
based on a far different issue.  Please read through the emails including
your own at the time.


> The issue of the information being public should therefore not be used
> here because the community had been told that the information was public
> and they should be able to find it. As some have mentioned already, we all
> work or belong to communities where some rules are outwardly out of tune.
> But we work to change them and not to manipulate them.
>
>
> Once the information is public, the NDA specifically excludes it from any
> limitations of the NDA. Read the NDA… To whit:
>
>
> I understand that certain information about AfriNIC is confidential, which
> is 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Benjamin Ledoh]

Hi Sander,

I have not said that you are evil. I said "This divisive tactic is evil ".
. When I said "when you are defending evil, you will end up being evil". I
mean defending what is wrong.* So no "hominem attacks".*


Please take your time to read and don't let your emotion (as usual) takes
over your common sense.

I am sorry if I sound harsh.


Benjiloh

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:44 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Call to the chairs: can you please stop people on this list from making ad
> hominem attacks against me? I've been called Satan before, now I'm called
> evil.
>
> Despite the entertainment value this is getting a bit annoying...
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
>
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Benjamin Ledoh]

Hi Alan and Mc Tim,

Sander, consciously or unconsciously, made fallacious statements in his
endeavor to praise the outgoing CEO and his supporter, and disgrace those
who want to stick to principles and procedures. This divisive tactic is
evil and especially when it is coming from someone like Sander, a former
Co-Chair in RIPE community who had displayed high sense of rationality in
his community. You (Alan and Mc Tim) know, it is allowed to show that there
is a division in AFRINIC Community *if and only if* it truly exists and
also based on facts not on lies. You (Alan and Mc Tim) know that there is
no trace of micromanagement in the minutes. Your tutorial and explanations
on “micromanagement” are not needed because I would not argue with Sander.

Sander mention transparency in his email and I agree that we have to praise
for transparency. I invite you to join me to praise the Board for
publishing the minutes gave room to Sander to err. For both of you (Alan
and Mc Tim), keep in mind that when you are defending evil, you will end up
being evil.

Cheers


Benjiloh

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 8:46 AM Alan Levin  wrote:

> Benjamin,
>
> When any board needs to formalise exactly how a CEO is to share a specific
> public document, that is micromanagement!
>
> I would go so far as to say it's so bad because:
> - when a CEO needs to formalise exactly how a Marketing Director is to
> share a specific public document, that is micromanagement!
> - when a Marketing Director needs to formalise exactly how a SEO
> consultant is to share a specific public document, that is micromanagement!
>
> Sincerely
>
> Alan
>
>
> On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 at 12:56, Benjamin Ledoh 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Sander,
>>
>> It seems to me that you have not got my points well. I will rephrase them
>> differently and give my last comments.
>>
>> Based on the minutes of the board, you sent an email accusing the board
>> of micromanagement. When I asked you to point it out in the minutes, you
>> directed me to textbook. I don't know whether the micromanagement you are
>> referring to the AFRINIC Community is in textbook.  When you claim that
>> “all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, I asked
>> you to prove it. Since you cannot prove it, you disappeared.  Facing your
>> inability to substantiate your own claims, you are telling me that “it is
>> more appropriate to stay silent”.
>>
>> I thank you for this option and I ask you to extend it to the entire
>> community since it will help us a lot in this community. In Yoruba land we
>> say that “when you don’t have fact to argue, wisdom suggests you keep
>> quite.”  Your silence would not give room to disruptive guys who want at
>> all cost the opportunity to create confusion and crises in this community
>> with the aims to destroy AFRINIC organization and community.
>>
>> Abide with your suggestion, it will be Great service to our community.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>> Benjiloh
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 8:21 PM Sander Steffann 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>
>>> > When I asked you to prove your hasty generalization “all
>>> responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, you
>>> disappeared, and no answer never come. It stands now there is no way you
>>> can justify because the “micromanagement” you are accusing the board to
>>> indulge in is not true.
>>>
>>> No, if you can't see any micromanagement in the minutes then there is
>>> nothing I can say to convince you, so I just gave up trying. Anything I say
>>> would not help this discussion any further, so it is more appropriate to
>>> stay silent.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sander
>>>
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>>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Sander Steffann]

> Please take your time to read and don't let your emotion (as usual) takes 
> over your common sense.

No worries Benjamin, at the moment my only emotion is laughter :)



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Sander Steffann]

Hi,

Call to the chairs: can you please stop people on this list from making ad 
hominem attacks against me? I've been called Satan before, now I'm called evil. 

Despite the entertainment value this is getting a bit annoying...

Cheers,
Sander



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mc Tim]

Benjamin,

 Complaining that a CEO publicized an already public document is, prima
facie "micromanangement".  As SS said, if you can't see that, then we can't
help.

Best Regards,

McTim

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 6:56 AM Benjamin Ledoh 
wrote:

> Hi Sander,
>
> It seems to me that you have not got my points well. I will rephrase them
> differently and give my last comments.
>
> Based on the minutes of the board, you sent an email accusing the board of
> micromanagement. When I asked you to point it out in the minutes, you
> directed me to textbook. I don't know whether the micromanagement you are
> referring to the AFRINIC Community is in textbook.  When you claim that
> “all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, I asked
> you to prove it. Since you cannot prove it, you disappeared.  Facing your
> inability to substantiate your own claims, you are telling me that “it is
> more appropriate to stay silent”.
>
> I thank you for this option and I ask you to extend it to the entire
> community since it will help us a lot in this community. In Yoruba land we
> say that “when you don’t have fact to argue, wisdom suggests you keep
> quite.”  Your silence would not give room to disruptive guys who want at
> all cost the opportunity to create confusion and crises in this community
> with the aims to destroy AFRINIC organization and community.
>
> Abide with your suggestion, it will be Great service to our community.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Benjiloh
>
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 8:21 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:
>
>> Hi Benjamin,
>>
>> > When I asked you to prove your hasty generalization “all responsibility
>> and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, you disappeared, and no
>> answer never come. It stands now there is no way you can justify because
>> the “micromanagement” you are accusing the board to indulge in is not true.
>>
>> No, if you can't see any micromanagement in the minutes then there is
>> nothing I can say to convince you, so I just gave up trying. Anything I say
>> would not help this discussion any further, so it is more appropriate to
>> stay silent.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sander
>>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Alan Levin]

Benjamin,

When any board needs to formalise exactly how a CEO is to share a specific
public document, that is micromanagement!

I would go so far as to say it's so bad because:
- when a CEO needs to formalise exactly how a Marketing Director is to
share a specific public document, that is micromanagement!
- when a Marketing Director needs to formalise exactly how a SEO consultant
is to share a specific public document, that is micromanagement!

Sincerely

Alan


On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 at 12:56, Benjamin Ledoh 
wrote:

> Hi Sander,
>
> It seems to me that you have not got my points well. I will rephrase them
> differently and give my last comments.
>
> Based on the minutes of the board, you sent an email accusing the board of
> micromanagement. When I asked you to point it out in the minutes, you
> directed me to textbook. I don't know whether the micromanagement you are
> referring to the AFRINIC Community is in textbook.  When you claim that
> “all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, I asked
> you to prove it. Since you cannot prove it, you disappeared.  Facing your
> inability to substantiate your own claims, you are telling me that “it is
> more appropriate to stay silent”.
>
> I thank you for this option and I ask you to extend it to the entire
> community since it will help us a lot in this community. In Yoruba land we
> say that “when you don’t have fact to argue, wisdom suggests you keep
> quite.”  Your silence would not give room to disruptive guys who want at
> all cost the opportunity to create confusion and crises in this community
> with the aims to destroy AFRINIC organization and community.
>
> Abide with your suggestion, it will be Great service to our community.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Benjiloh
>
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 8:21 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:
>
>> Hi Benjamin,
>>
>> > When I asked you to prove your hasty generalization “all responsibility
>> and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, you disappeared, and no
>> answer never come. It stands now there is no way you can justify because
>> the “micromanagement” you are accusing the board to indulge in is not true.
>>
>> No, if you can't see any micromanagement in the minutes then there is
>> nothing I can say to convince you, so I just gave up trying. Anything I say
>> would not help this discussion any further, so it is more appropriate to
>> stay silent.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sander
>>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Benjamin Ledoh]

Hi Sander,

It seems to me that you have not got my points well. I will rephrase them
differently and give my last comments.

Based on the minutes of the board, you sent an email accusing the board of
micromanagement. When I asked you to point it out in the minutes, you
directed me to textbook. I don't know whether the micromanagement you are
referring to the AFRINIC Community is in textbook.  When you claim that
“all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, I asked
you to prove it. Since you cannot prove it, you disappeared.  Facing your
inability to substantiate your own claims, you are telling me that “it is
more appropriate to stay silent”.

I thank you for this option and I ask you to extend it to the entire
community since it will help us a lot in this community. In Yoruba land we
say that “when you don’t have fact to argue, wisdom suggests you keep
quite.”  Your silence would not give room to disruptive guys who want at
all cost the opportunity to create confusion and crises in this community
with the aims to destroy AFRINIC organization and community.

Abide with your suggestion, it will be Great service to our community.

Thank you,


Benjiloh

On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 8:21 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:

> Hi Benjamin,
>
> > When I asked you to prove your hasty generalization “all responsibility
> and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, you disappeared, and no
> answer never come. It stands now there is no way you can justify because
> the “micromanagement” you are accusing the board to indulge in is not true.
>
> No, if you can't see any micromanagement in the minutes then there is
> nothing I can say to convince you, so I just gave up trying. Anything I say
> would not help this discussion any further, so it is more appropriate to
> stay silent.
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

not under NDA to the Board is no 
>> longer confidential and is deemed to be in the public domain.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> So – it is absolutely beyond dispute that those court documents were public 
>> information.  It is absolutely beyond dispute that every director had to 
>> know the definition of confidential – they signed the NDA.  Therefore – 
>> logic states – that any director making a claim of NDA violation or claiming 
>> contractual violation in breach of the NDA was bringing a motion that he 
>> KNEW was both frivolous and without any merit whatsoever.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Now – let us look beyond the bylaws at the companies act specifically 
>> section 143 entitled “Duties of directors to act in good faith and in best 
>> interests of the company”
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Section 143.(1).(c) states: exercise their powers honestly in good faith in 
>> the best interests of the company and for the respective purposes for which 
>> such powers are explicitly or impliedly conferred;
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Now – since it can be CLEARLY established that the power to bring charges of 
>> NDA violation and violation of contract were exercised in bad faith – 
>> considering the full knowledge of said director under his own signature that 
>> the information was not – and could not be – covered under the NDA – at the 
>> VERY least one director is in, at least in my mind, in clear violation of 
>> this clause and his fiduciary duties as a director.  Furthermore – while 
>> perhaps more tenuous an argument – I would argue that the chair – knowing 
>> full well that the charges being brought were frivolous and in bad faith (on 
>> the same basis that the charges made by Serge were in bad faith) acted 
>> contrary to the best interests of the company  by allowing these charges to 
>> be heard – and published – showing the world a completely dysfunctional 
>> board acting in bad faith.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> So – while I stand by my statements that I believe the board as a whole 
>> should resign – particularly in light of the fact that not a single director 
>> objected to the charges brought and the fact that the meeting was being held 
>> in the first place – thereby lending credibility to a clear cut act of bad 
>> faith – and therefore also acting against the best interests of the company 
>> – I need to state – that this in particular applies both the Chair and Serge 
>> Ilunga – both of whom in my mind CLEARLY violated the companies act and 
>> their fiduciary duties as is clearly documented in those minutes.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hence – I reiterate my call for the resignation of the directors.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Alan Barrett > <mailto:alan.barr...@afrinic.net>>
>> Date: Friday, 31 May 2019 at 20:55
>> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC > <mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>>
>> Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List > <mailto:bo...@afrinic.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > On 28 May 2019, at 14:49, Frank Habicht > > <mailto:ge...@geier.ne.tz>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Dear AfriNIC board members,
>> > 
>> > reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
>> > items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
>> > are to adhere to.
>> > 
>> > Can you share the document please?
>> 
>> The Board NDA has been published at 
>> <https://afrinic.net/board/board-documents 
>> <https://afrinic.net/board/board-documents>>
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Alan Barrett
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Frank Habicht]

To update:

On 28/05/2019 16:38, Frank Habicht wrote:
> any commitment to do that would probably gain the candidate some extra
> votes
> ;-)

this does not apply any more.
Frank

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Noah]

 the power to bring charges
>> of NDA violation and violation of contract were exercised in bad faith –
>> considering the full knowledge of said director under his own signature
>> that the information was not – and could not be – covered under the NDA –
>> at the VERY least one director is in, at least in my mind, in clear
>> violation of this clause and his fiduciary duties as a director.
>> Furthermore – while perhaps more tenuous an argument – I would argue that
>> the chair – knowing full well that the charges being brought were frivolous
>> and in bad faith (on the same basis that the charges made by Serge were in
>> bad faith) acted contrary to the best interests of the company  by allowing
>> these charges to be heard – and published – showing the world a completely
>> dysfunctional board acting in bad faith.
>>
>>
>>
>> So – while I stand by my statements that I believe the board as a whole
>> should resign – particularly in light of the fact that not a single
>> director objected to the charges brought and the fact that the meeting was
>> being held in the first place – thereby lending credibility to a clear cut
>> act of bad faith – and therefore also acting against the best interests of
>> the company – I need to state – that this in particular applies both the
>> Chair and Serge Ilunga – both of whom in my mind CLEARLY violated the
>> companies act and their fiduciary duties as is clearly documented in those
>> minutes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hence – I reiterate my call for the resignation of the directors.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Alan Barrett 
>> *Date: *Friday, 31 May 2019 at 20:55
>> *To: *General Discussions of AFRINIC 
>> *Cc: *AFRINIC Board of Directors' List 
>> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 28 May 2019, at 14:49, Frank Habicht  wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear AfriNIC board members,
>> >
>> > reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
>> > items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
>> > are to adhere to.
>> >
>> > Can you share the document please?
>>
>> The Board NDA has been published at <
>> https://afrinic.net/board/board-documents>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alan Barrett
>>
>>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

k at what the NDA said – wording relevant to 
> this is highlighted:
> 
>  
> 
> 1. I understand that certain information about AfriNIC is confidential, which 
> is information not previously published or otherwise disclosed to the public 
> and which relates to but is not limited to the following:
> 
>  
> 
> Now – there can be no question that the information in said documents were 
> disclosed to the public.  The court had the documents – the courts – are a 
> public entity – judges – are public servants. To add further weight – I point 
> to the fact that resolution 201411.211 states:  However, information 
> disclosed by the Board to third parties not under NDA to the Board is no 
> longer confidential and is deemed to be in the public domain.
> 
>  
> 
> So – it is absolutely beyond dispute that those court documents were public 
> information.  It is absolutely beyond dispute that every director had to know 
> the definition of confidential – they signed the NDA.  Therefore – logic 
> states – that any director making a claim of NDA violation or claiming 
> contractual violation in breach of the NDA was bringing a motion that he KNEW 
> was both frivolous and without any merit whatsoever.
> 
>  
> 
> Now – let us look beyond the bylaws at the companies act specifically section 
> 143 entitled “Duties of directors to act in good faith and in best interests 
> of the company”
> 
>  
> 
> Section 143.(1).(c) states: exercise their powers honestly in good faith in 
> the best interests of the company and for the respective purposes for which 
> such powers are explicitly or impliedly conferred;
> 
>  
> 
> Now – since it can be CLEARLY established that the power to bring charges of 
> NDA violation and violation of contract were exercised in bad faith – 
> considering the full knowledge of said director under his own signature that 
> the information was not – and could not be – covered under the NDA – at the 
> VERY least one director is in, at least in my mind, in clear violation of 
> this clause and his fiduciary duties as a director.  Furthermore – while 
> perhaps more tenuous an argument – I would argue that the chair – knowing 
> full well that the charges being brought were frivolous and in bad faith (on 
> the same basis that the charges made by Serge were in bad faith) acted 
> contrary to the best interests of the company  by allowing these charges to 
> be heard – and published – showing the world a completely dysfunctional board 
> acting in bad faith.
> 
>  
> 
> So – while I stand by my statements that I believe the board as a whole 
> should resign – particularly in light of the fact that not a single director 
> objected to the charges brought and the fact that the meeting was being held 
> in the first place – thereby lending credibility to a clear cut act of bad 
> faith – and therefore also acting against the best interests of the company – 
> I need to state – that this in particular applies both the Chair and Serge 
> Ilunga – both of whom in my mind CLEARLY violated the companies act and their 
> fiduciary duties as is clearly documented in those minutes.
> 
>  
> 
> Hence – I reiterate my call for the resignation of the directors.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
>  
> 
> Andrew
> 
>  
> 
> From: Alan Barrett  <mailto:alan.barr...@afrinic.net>>
> Date: Friday, 31 May 2019 at 20:55
> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC  <mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>>
> Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List  <mailto:bo...@afrinic.net>>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> > On 28 May 2019, at 14:49, Frank Habicht  > <mailto:ge...@geier.ne.tz>> wrote:
> > 
> > Dear AfriNIC board members,
> > 
> > reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
> > items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
> > are to adhere to.
> > 
> > Can you share the document please?
> 
> The Board NDA has been published at 
> <https://afrinic.net/board/board-documents 
> <https://afrinic.net/board/board-documents>>
> 
> Regards,
> Alan Barrett
> 
> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Sander Steffann]

Hi Benjamin,

> When I asked you to prove your hasty generalization “all responsibility and 
> autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, you disappeared, and no answer 
> never come. It stands now there is no way you can justify because the 
> “micromanagement” you are accusing the board to indulge in is not true.

No, if you can't see any micromanagement in the minutes then there is nothing I 
can say to convince you, so I just gave up trying. Anything I say would not 
help this discussion any further, so it is more appropriate to stay silent.

Cheers,
Sander



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Noah]

uciary duties as is clearly documented in those
> minutes.
>
>
>
> Hence – I reiterate my call for the resignation of the directors.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From: *Alan Barrett 
> *Date: *Friday, 31 May 2019 at 20:55
> *To: *General Discussions of AFRINIC 
> *Cc: *AFRINIC Board of Directors' List 
> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 28 May 2019, at 14:49, Frank Habicht  wrote:
> >
> > Dear AfriNIC board members,
> >
> > reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
> > items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
> > are to adhere to.
> >
> > Can you share the document please?
>
> The Board NDA has been published at <
> https://afrinic.net/board/board-documents>
>
> Regards,
> Alan Barrett
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Benjamin Ledoh]

Hi Sander,

Last week Monday, you made an assertion concerning the micromanagement of
AFRINIC organization. When I asked you to point out where the
micromanagement is in the minutes, you rather responded that “all
responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away” and referring
me to textbook for example of micromanagement.

When I asked you to prove your hasty generalization “all responsibility and
autonomy of the CEO has been taken away”, you disappeared, and no answer
never come. It stands now there is no way you can justify because the
“micromanagement” you are accusing the board to indulge in is not true.
There is no where it is on the minutes one can point out the
micromanagement you are talking about. Rather your it is obvious that your
intention is to praise the CEO and whoever is supporting him as a “good
guy” and the other members of the board who trying to enforce procedure as
“bad guys”. Moreover, your untrue “micromanagement” has open gate to those
who want to drive the organization into crises are asking the resignation
of the board.

It is inappropriate or rather mischievous to accuse others base on “FAKE
NEWS” or LIES. Since you are calling for transparency, I am also for it. I
think it is time to ask for the in extenso publication of the report that
dealt with the disfunction within Afrinic organization after the
allegations/accusations of sexual harassment that led to the resignation of
the past immediate chairman of Afrinic Board.

Transparency Requires!!!


Benjiloh

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 12:50 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I was just reading the board minutes at
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf and I
> am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to
> deal with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji seem to be
> reprimanded for being open and transparent to this community. The summary
> of those minutes show how the board has made it explicitly clear that the
> CEO is to have no responsibility anymore towards this community.
>
> Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my gratitude to
> both Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this community involved in
> Afrinic matters in an open and transparent way. I feel this is a strong
> requirement for keeping Afrinic respected and supported by both its members
> and its community.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sander
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[S. Moonesamy]

Dear Andrew,
At 04:32 AM 31-05-2019, Andrew Alston wrote:
   * The members in question that released 
information did it in their capacity as board 
members and would have received that information under that capacity.
 This is not true – read the court papers – 
each member was a ra respondent to the court 
filing in their personal capacities – they were 
directly served the papers in their own nnames 
– the very first thing in that filing is SM vs long list of names>


I was the director who filed the 
application.  The respondents were the persons 
who were listed as directors at the time of the filing and Afrinic Ltd.


I disclosed conflict of interest when the matter 
was on the agenda of a meeting and requested to 
be excused from the related discussions.  It was 
not clear whether the documents which were filed 
could be put online as they were not available on 
the web site of the Supreme Court.  There are 
laws, e.g. the ICT Act, which might be relevant.


This is not the first legal case which I had to 
deal with as part of my duties as director.  Is 
there any concern about the outcome of the case?


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[S. Moonesamy]

Dear Alan,

Thank you for contacting me.  I asked a representative of a Resource 
Member for feedback about your request. In reply, I was asked about 
the logical basis for the request.  Would it be possible for you to 
elaborate on that?


If the request is in relation to the legal case, there is some 
information at http://r.elandsys.com/778898


Regards,
S. Moonesamy


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

Thank you, Alan.

I hope the board will not express further contempt over your disclosure of this 
document.

Owen


> On May 31, 2019, at 10:54 , Alan Barrett  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 28 May 2019, at 14:49, Frank Habicht  wrote:
>> 
>> Dear AfriNIC board members,
>> 
>> reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
>> items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
>> are to adhere to.
>> 
>> Can you share the document please?
> 
> The Board NDA has been published at 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Alan Barrett
> 
> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

> On May 31, 2019, at 04:22 , Badru Ntege  wrote:
> 
> From what I see here 
>  
> A collective and binding decision was made by board to release information at 
> an appropriate time.  That decision would have been bidding to all board 
> members as per procedure.

I see no such decision… Please point to it in the appropriate minutes.
 
> One or two members went ahead to release that information outside the board 
> agreed process.  

?? The information had already been released to the general public by the 
courts. Why is there even a question of separate control of release of the 
information to the community by board members??
 
> Whether or not that information was already publicly available.   The intent 
> of the members that released the information was in response to community 
> asking for the board to release the information. 

This is a rather creative interpretation of the community request. The 
information had already been released. The community was asking the board to 
further distribute it to make it more easily available to the community so that 
the community didn’t all need to try and individually find it through the 
Mauritian court system.
 
> The proper way for that information to be released would have been through 
> the approved board process.

The proper way would have been for the board to decide to release it 
immediately. The idea that the board feels there is an appropriate delay to 
releasing an already public document is what is truly appalling here.
 
> The members in question that released information did it in their capacity as 
> board members and would have received that information under that capacity.

The members could just as easily have received it through other workings of the 
courts in Mauritius. You cannot say this for certain.
 
> Every action has consequences and as adults we make decisions having 
> considered the consequences one would assume.

The action that should carry the most consequences here is the attempt to block 
the flow of already public information to the community by the board chair.
 
> I urge us all to be rational.  I somehow believe you all believe you are 
> acting in the best interest of our organisations AfriNIC. 

You urge us to be rational, yet you appear to be supporting a position of pure 
absurdity. Namely the idea that a public document can be treated as 
confidential information.
 
> Lets give the people we elected the respect they deserve, advise them when 
> they need the guidance and allow them to do the job.

When a person is elected to the board, we have placed our trust in them. We 
expect them to foster and facilitate good and timely communications of 
important data to the community. We do not expect them to be wasting time and 
effort trying to prevent public documents from being further disseminated to 
the community and we certainly do not expect them to be playing games trying to 
sanction or censor other board members from further communicating information 
which is already in the public domain regardless of how it came into their 
possession.

It is not disrespectful to a board member to constructively criticize such 
grossly incorrect actions when they make them. It would, however, be 
disrespectful to the community and the membership and the governance process to 
allow such actions to go completely unchallenged.

Since I have not seen the board confidentiality agreement, I cannot comment 
specifically on its contents. I will note, however, that the following 
construct is common (in some form or other) to virtually every NDA I have ever 
seen:

2. Exclusions from Confidential Information. Receiving Party's obligations 
under this Agreement do not extend to information that is: (a) publicly known 
at the time of disclosure or subsequently becomes publicly known through no 
fault of the Receiving Party; (b) discovered or created by the Receiving Party 
before disclosure by Disclosing Party; (c) learned by the Receiving Party 
through legitimate means other than from the Disclosing Party or Disclosing 
Party's representatives; or (d) is disclosed by Receiving Party with Disclosing 
Party's prior written approval.

If this construct is not present in the existing board agreement, it certainly 
should be added. It makes it very clear that information which is already 
public is not subject to the terms of the agreement.

> We cannot all be board members at the same time so we choose a few from the 
> wide community to do that role.

Of course, but we then have the right to expect them to use reasonable judgment 
and act in the interests of the membership and the broader community. Wasting 
the entirety of a special meeting bickering about the confidentiality of public 
information is not reasonable judgment, not in the interests of the membership 
or the community, and not responsible use of company resources.
 
> Looking forward to hosting you all in beautiful Kampala for AIS19

See you there.

Owen

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Frank Habicht]

Dear Alan,

Thanks very much.

Regards,
Frank


On 31/05/2019 20:54, Alan Barrett wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 28 May 2019, at 14:49, Frank Habicht  wrote:
>>
>> Dear AfriNIC board members,
>>
>> reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
>> items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
>> are to adhere to.
>>
>> Can you share the document please?
> 
> The Board NDA has been published at 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Alan Barrett


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Andrew Alston]

Thank you Alan,

Now – I would like to break this down a bit – firstly – every directory is 
signatory to this document – and by signing it – have acknowledged – under 
their own hand – their knowledge of its contents.  There can be no claim that 
the contents of this document once signed by a director are not known.

Now – with that said – let us look at what the NDA said – wording relevant to 
this is highlighted:

1. I understand that certain information about AfriNIC is confidential, which 
is information not previously published or otherwise disclosed to the public 
and which relates to but is not limited to the following:

Now – there can be no question that the information in said documents were 
disclosed to the public.  The court had the documents – the courts – are a 
public entity – judges – are public servants. To add further weight – I point 
to the fact that resolution 201411.211 states:  However, information disclosed 
by the Board to third parties not under NDA to the Board is no longer 
confidential and is deemed to be in the public domain.

So – it is absolutely beyond dispute that those court documents were public 
information.  It is absolutely beyond dispute that every director had to know 
the definition of confidential – they signed the NDA.  Therefore – logic states 
– that any director making a claim of NDA violation or claiming contractual 
violation in breach of the NDA was bringing a motion that he KNEW was both 
frivolous and without any merit whatsoever.

Now – let us look beyond the bylaws at the companies act specifically section 
143 entitled “Duties of directors to act in good faith and in best interests of 
the company”

Section 143.(1).(c) states: exercise their powers honestly in good faith in the 
best interests of the company and for the respective purposes for which such 
powers are explicitly or impliedly conferred;

Now – since it can be CLEARLY established that the power to bring charges of 
NDA violation and violation of contract were exercised in bad faith – 
considering the full knowledge of said director under his own signature that 
the information was not – and could not be – covered under the NDA – at the 
VERY least one director is in, at least in my mind, in clear violation of this 
clause and his fiduciary duties as a director.  Furthermore – while perhaps 
more tenuous an argument – I would argue that the chair – knowing full well 
that the charges being brought were frivolous and in bad faith (on the same 
basis that the charges made by Serge were in bad faith) acted contrary to the 
best interests of the company  by allowing these charges to be heard – and 
published – showing the world a completely dysfunctional board acting in bad 
faith.

So – while I stand by my statements that I believe the board as a whole should 
resign – particularly in light of the fact that not a single director objected 
to the charges brought and the fact that the meeting was being held in the 
first place – thereby lending credibility to a clear cut act of bad faith – and 
therefore also acting against the best interests of the company – I need to 
state – that this in particular applies both the Chair and Serge Ilunga – both 
of whom in my mind CLEARLY violated the companies act and their fiduciary 
duties as is clearly documented in those minutes.

Hence – I reiterate my call for the resignation of the directors.

Thanks

Andrew

From: Alan Barrett 
Date: Friday, 31 May 2019 at 20:55
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC 
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude



> On 28 May 2019, at 14:49, Frank Habicht  wrote:
>
> Dear AfriNIC board members,
>
> reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
> items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
> are to adhere to.
>
> Can you share the document please?

The Board NDA has been published at 
<https://afrinic.net/board/board-documents<https://afrinic.net/board/board-documents>>

Regards,
Alan Barrett


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Alan Barrett]

> On 28 May 2019, at 14:49, Frank Habicht  wrote:
> 
> Dear AfriNIC board members,
> 
> reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
> items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
> are to adhere to.
> 
> Can you share the document please?

The Board NDA has been published at 

Regards,
Alan Barrett


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[Noah]

On Fri, 31 May 2019, 13:38 Alan Levin,  wrote:

> Dear S.
>
> The situation is apalling! The Southern rep is currently suspended from
> his job we still do not know why  the rest of the board appears to
> have jointly angered the CEO into resignation... I am surprised you have
> not resigned yet why are you still there?
>

Common. are you serious?



> Alan
>
> On Thu, 30 May 2019 at 20:40, S. Moonesamy  wrote:
>
>> Dear Andrew,
>> At 10:13 AM 30-05-2019, Andrew Alston wrote:
>> >Is the board prepared to share the full unredacted accountability
>> >assessment with the community  if it has not already been done (I
>> >don't recall it have being done so)
>>
>> Thank you for contacting me.  In my opinion, it may possible to bring
>> the request to the attention of the Board as there was a decision
>> about requests from Resource Members in 2017.  I don't know what the
>> Board will decide as a Board is usually more than one member's opinion.
>>
>> There is a mention of a public summary in the minutes of May 2016.  I
>> found the following: http://r.elandsys.com/r/40408
>>
>> Regards,
>> S. Moonesamy
>>
>>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Let’s make it generic, so it is easier to understand for everyone. Note that 
I’m not a lawyer, but law is generally very logic. So:

 
In law, you can’t hide documents that are already public.
 
Moreover, an organization (membership or any other type), can’t have rules that 
go *against* the law.
 
An NDA can’t protect public documents.
 
Organization bylaws or rules can’t act against laws or reduce rights that are 
provided by law. If a rule is against law, it can be absolutelly ignored. The 
rest of the rules are still in place.
 

So, a board, can *NEVER* hide, delay or ask its members to not provide a 
document to the overall membership, if this document is already public. A board 
can’t consequently punish members of the board, because they don’t wait for the 
board decision to publish a *public* document among the membership.

 

In fact, it will be on the other way around: Board members that don’t release 
ASAP, a public document related to the membership/organization, may be in 
fault, acting against the interest of the organization and members.


Regards,

Jordi

 

 

 

El 31/5/19 13:34, "Alan Levin"  escribió:

 

Badru,

 

On Fri, 31 May 2019 at 13:21, Badru Ntege  wrote:

>From what I see here 

 A collective and binding decision was made by board to release information at 
an appropriate time.  That decision would have been bidding to all board 
members as per procedure.

 

Clearly this was a poor decision 

 

One or two members went ahead to release that information outside the board 
agreed process.  

 

A seriously flawed Board process!  

 

Whether or not that information was already publicly available.   The intent of 
the members that released the information was in response to community asking 
for the board to release the information. 

The proper way for that information to be released would have been through the 
approved board process.

The members in question that released information did it in their capacity as 
board members and would have received that information under that capacity.

Every action has consequences and as adults we make decisions having considered 
the consequences one would assume.

I urge us all to be rational.  I somehow believe you all believe you are acting 
in the best interest of our organisations AfriNIC. 

 

We are being rational Badru, we are all most disappointed at the Board 
decisions here which have seriously destabilised the already flailing RIR! This 
was a very poor decision and "the cherry on top" 

 

But blowing a procedural issue like this to this level and even trying to 
relate or connect it to a personal decision of an employee to resign is 
reaching and really not in the spirit of the entire community or our 
organisations.

Lets give the people we elected the respect they deserve, advise them when they 
need the guidance and allow them to do the job.

 

Please keep in mind that we DID NOT elect these people... some of us elected 
some of these people, but they were largely elected on block or by default... 

 

We cannot all be board members at the same time so we choose a few from the 
wide community to do that role.

 

Yes, we want a better board - just one that is functiuonal - and a better 
process... 

 

Sincerely

 

Alan 

 

 

 

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Andrew Alston]

  *   The members in question that released information did it in their 
capacity as board members and would have received that information under that 
capacity.

This is not true – read the court papers – each member was a respondent to the 
court filing in their personal capacities – they were directly served the 
papers in their own names – the very first thing in that filing is SM vs 


  *   Lets give the people we elected the respect they deserve, advise them 
when they need the guidance and allow them to do the job.

We are doing this – the only thing we differ on is what is deserved in light of 
what is in those documents.

Andrew




From: John Walu mailto:walu.j...@gmail.com>>
Date: Friday, May 31, 2019 at 11:08 AM
To: Andrew Alston 
mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: "community-discuss@afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>" 
mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

@Andrew

I thot AfriNIC has a well-established mechanism for supporting or not 
supporting the current chair. I am sure you recall this used to happen every 
year after new members join the board and a vote is called to either extend or 
rotate the chairman position.

Am not sure if there has been a change this process and now the voting of the 
Chair by board members happens on email ;-)

That said,

I had not bothered to read the board minutes under discussion but after reading 
them, I am a bit surprised that 4years later, AfriNIC board is still obsessed 
with 'information control' strategies when they should be concerned with 
'information sharing' strategies.

Strictly speaking, Afrinic, as a community network has really nothing worth 
hiding (other than as per Data Protection Act/Regulations). Furthermore trying 
to hide or suppress what is already a public document, does not send a good 
signal to the community.

Dr. Bope, our Chairman, I am sure you can actually move beyond this and focus 
the board in more progressive endeavors.

best regards and all the best.

walu.



On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 10:22 AM Andrew Alston 
mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Can we  conclude from the total lack of response to this email that in fact – 
there is no one willing to step up and say they support the current chair?  
Either member or board member?

Andrew

From: Frank Habicht mailto:ge...@geier.ne.tz>>
Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2019 16:36
To: community-discuss@afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

Hi,

reading
https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2018-minutes/20181231-minutes.pdf<https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2018-minutes/20181231-minutes.pdf>

especially:

SO stated that he had requested via email for the Board to announce the
status of the AGMM quorum court case. He stated that the Chair had
refused to do so, and the Chair had alleged that SO was looking for
votes. SO had requested the Chair to withdraw the statement. The Chair
stated that the Board had discussed the matter, and would communicate to
the community at an appropriate time; based on that the Chair did not
see a need to withdraw. SO again requested the Chair to withdraw the
allegation that SO was looking for votes, and the Chair again refused to
withdraw.


I conclude that the Chair actively tried to suppress information/updates
from AfriNIC membership. He apparently had no good reason and was using
the allegation of another board member "looking for votes" as only argument.

Which member of AfriNIC wants to have such a chair at the AfriNIC board?
Please identify yourselves positively.

PS: I would also wish to know which other board members supported this
decision by the chair.

Thanks,
Frank



On 28/05/2019 16:18, Mark Elkins wrote:
> Thinking about the CEO, reading the minutes (
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf<https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf>
>  ) - I
> think the best way out for the AfriNIC community is if the whole board
> resigns - just leave the CEO. Andrew has got it right.
>
> On 2019/05/28 14:36, Andrew Alston wrote:
>>
>> Benjamin,
>>
>>
>>
>> Let’s see – you have a public document – a document that is clearly
>> and totally in the public domain.  You have an individual who was a
>> named party in that document – who chose to share that document.  You
>> have an active attempt by the board to sanction that individual for
>> engaging with the community who he is meant to serve.  You have a
>> statement by the chair of the board that the CEO does not serve the
>> community but instead serves the board.
>>
>>
>>
>> Effectively – you have a board attempting to censor the CEO from
>> engaging with this community – in a bottom up organization that by
>> legal representation

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Alan Levin]

Badru,

On Fri, 31 May 2019 at 13:21, Badru Ntege 
wrote:

> From what I see here
>
>  A collective and binding decision was made by board to release
> information at an appropriate time.  That decision would have been bidding
> to all board members as per procedure.
>

Clearly this was a poor decision

One or two members went ahead to release that information outside the board
> agreed process.
>

A seriously flawed Board process!

Whether or not that information was already publicly available.   The
> intent of the members that released the information was in response to
> community asking for the board to release the information.
>
> The proper way for that information to be released would have been through
> the approved board process.
>
> The members in question that released information did it in their capacity
> as board members and would have received that information under that
> capacity.
>
> Every action has consequences and as adults we make decisions having
> considered the consequences one would assume.
>
> I urge us all to be rational.  I somehow believe you all believe you are
> acting in the best interest of our organisations AfriNIC.
>

We are being rational Badru, we are all most disappointed at the Board
decisions here which have seriously destabilised the already flailing RIR!
This was a very poor decision and "the cherry on top"


> But blowing a procedural issue like this to this level and even trying to
> relate or connect it to a personal decision of an employee to resign is
> reaching and really not in the spirit of the entire community or our
> organisations.
>
> Lets give the people we elected the respect they deserve, advise them when
> they need the guidance and allow them to do the job.
>

Please keep in mind that we DID NOT elect these people... some of us
elected some of these people, but they were largely elected on block or by
default...

We cannot all be board members at the same time so we choose a few from the
> wide community to do that role.
>

Yes, we want a better board - just one that is functiuonal - and a better
process...

Sincerely

Alan  
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[Saul Stein]

Hi All,



Reading from the minutes:



The CEO highlighted that the document that was shared on the community 
mailing list was a public document, a public document that was received 
directly from the Court and not subject to NDA and privilege, and was not 
received in virtue of the employment at AFRINIC but received from the Court 
registry. The CEO further affirmed that it was important and for the best 
interest of the company to share the document to the community

Where is the conflict of interest?



The Chair pointed out that on the 9 February, he shared an email that he 
wanted to hear the views of the Board before sharing the document to the 
community.

The community had been calling for this information repeatedly. If the CEO 
was not being supported by the Board in the daily operation of the 
organisation, that is huge issue. There have been numerous instances where 
the board has failed to communicate with it members (those very people to 
whom the board is accountable and put the board there in the first place.)



With regards to the Agenda Items under discussion, VM pointed out that 
matter of governance and sharing with the members should be under the 
responsibility of the Board. The Board should have agreed as a whole to 
release the document.

Sadly they were asked but the members and didn’t and so someone placed a 
public document in a location so that those interested could view it.



Legal counsel had in a number of occasions highlighted that the judgment was 
a publicly accessible document hence there was no reason to delay its 
publication.

Since legal counsel had advised, why did the board still not comply?



Let’s add this current issue of a director that has been suspended from his 
day job. While I am not going to jump to conclusions as to why (that is not 
for us to judge), whatever happen is serious enough to suspend him. Good 
governance and integrity would be for him to temporarily remove himself from 
all decision making from other entities as well to prevent inference and 
possible misconduct. Would you go to an accountant for private work while he 
has been suspended from his day job? The board knew about this and failed to 
act.



As a general rule, where there is smoke there is fire. People only hide 
things where there are things to hide. We are a community based 
organisation. There is very little data that needs redacting in the minutes 
in general. Communication should be forthcoming and open!



All these issues really make one think about the objectives of the board!







From: Wayne Diamond [mailto:wa...@domains.co.za]
Sent: 31 May 2019 11:55 AM
To: Alan Levin ; S. Moonesamy 
Cc: community-discuss@afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)



Is this not the time for a vote of no confidence in the chairman / some of 
the board?



Wayne











From: Alan Levin mailto:alanle...@gmail.com> >
Sent: 31 May 2019 11:29 AM
To: S. Moonesamy mailto:sm...@afrinic.net> >
Cc: community-discuss@afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)



Dear S.



The situation is apalling! The Southern rep is currently suspended from his 
job we still do not know why  the rest of the board appears to have 
jointly angered the CEO into resignation... I am surprised you have not 
resigned yet why are you still there?



Alan



On Thu, 30 May 2019 at 20:40, S. Moonesamy mailto:sm%2...@afrinic.net> > wrote:

Dear Andrew,
At 10:13 AM 30-05-2019, Andrew Alston wrote:
>Is the board prepared to share the full unredacted accountability
>assessment with the community  if it has not already been done (I
>don't recall it have being done so)

Thank you for contacting me.  In my opinion, it may possible to bring
the request to the attention of the Board as there was a decision
about requests from Resource Members in 2017.  I don't know what the
Board will decide as a Board is usually more than one member's opinion.

There is a mention of a public summary in the minutes of May 2016.  I
found the following: http://r.elandsys.com/r/40408

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Badru Ntege]

From what I see here

A collective and binding decision was made by board to release information at 
an appropriate time.  That decision would have been bidding to all board 
members as per procedure.

One or two members went ahead to release that information outside the board 
agreed process.

Whether or not that information was already publicly available.   The intent of 
the members that released the information was in response to community asking 
for the board to release the information.

The proper way for that information to be released would have been through the 
approved board process.

The members in question that released information did it in their capacity as 
board members and would have received that information under that capacity.

Every action has consequences and as adults we make decisions having considered 
the consequences one would assume.

I urge us all to be rational.  I somehow believe you all believe you are acting 
in the best interest of our organisations AfriNIC.

But blowing a procedural issue like this to this level and even trying to 
relate or connect it to a personal decision of an employee to resign is 
reaching and really not in the spirit of the entire community or our 
organisations.

Lets give the people we elected the respect they deserve, advise them when they 
need the guidance and allow them to do the job.

We cannot all be board members at the same time so we choose a few from the 
wide community to do that role.

Looking forward to hosting you all in beautiful Kampala for AIS19

Regards
BN




From: John Walu 
Date: Friday, May 31, 2019 at 11:08 AM
To: Andrew Alston 
Cc: "community-discuss@afrinic.net" 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

@Andrew

I thot AfriNIC has a well-established mechanism for supporting or not 
supporting the current chair. I am sure you recall this used to happen every 
year after new members join the board and a vote is called to either extend or 
rotate the chairman position.

Am not sure if there has been a change this process and now the voting of the 
Chair by board members happens on email ;-)

That said,

I had not bothered to read the board minutes under discussion but after reading 
them, I am a bit surprised that 4years later, AfriNIC board is still obsessed 
with 'information control' strategies when they should be concerned with 
'information sharing' strategies.

Strictly speaking, Afrinic, as a community network has really nothing worth 
hiding (other than as per Data Protection Act/Regulations). Furthermore trying 
to hide or suppress what is already a public document, does not send a good 
signal to the community.

Dr. Bope, our Chairman, I am sure you can actually move beyond this and focus 
the board in more progressive endeavors.

best regards and all the best.

walu.



On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 10:22 AM Andrew Alston 
mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Can we  conclude from the total lack of response to this email that in fact – 
there is no one willing to step up and say they support the current chair?  
Either member or board member?

Andrew

From: Frank Habicht mailto:ge...@geier.ne.tz>>
Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2019 16:36
To: community-discuss@afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

Hi,

reading
https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2018-minutes/20181231-minutes.pdf

especially:

SO stated that he had requested via email for the Board to announce the
status of the AGMM quorum court case. He stated that the Chair had
refused to do so, and the Chair had alleged that SO was looking for
votes. SO had requested the Chair to withdraw the statement. The Chair
stated that the Board had discussed the matter, and would communicate to
the community at an appropriate time; based on that the Chair did not
see a need to withdraw. SO again requested the Chair to withdraw the
allegation that SO was looking for votes, and the Chair again refused to
withdraw.


I conclude that the Chair actively tried to suppress information/updates
from AfriNIC membership. He apparently had no good reason and was using
the allegation of another board member "looking for votes" as only argument.

Which member of AfriNIC wants to have such a chair at the AfriNIC board?
Please identify yourselves positively.

PS: I would also wish to know which other board members supported this
decision by the chair.

Thanks,
Frank



On 28/05/2019 16:18, Mark Elkins wrote:
> Thinking about the CEO, reading the minutes (
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf ) - I
> think the best way out for the AfriNIC community is if the whole board
> resigns - just leave the CEO. Andrew has got it right.
>
> On 2019/05/28 14:36, Andrew Alston wrote:
>>
>> Benjamin,
>>
>>
>>
>> Let’s see – you have a public document – a document that is clearly
>> and totally in the public domain.  Y

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[Wayne Diamond]

Is this not the time for a vote of no confidence in the chairman / some of the 
board?

Wayne





From: Alan Levin 
Sent: 31 May 2019 11:29 AM
To: S. Moonesamy 
Cc: community-discuss@afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

Dear S.

The situation is apalling! The Southern rep is currently suspended from his 
job we still do not know why  the rest of the board appears to have 
jointly angered the CEO into resignation... I am surprised you have not 
resigned yet why are you still there?

Alan

On Thu, 30 May 2019 at 20:40, S. Moonesamy 
mailto:sm%2...@afrinic.net>> wrote:
Dear Andrew,
At 10:13 AM 30-05-2019, Andrew Alston wrote:
>Is the board prepared to share the full unredacted accountability
>assessment with the community  if it has not already been done (I
>don't recall it have being done so)

Thank you for contacting me.  In my opinion, it may possible to bring
the request to the attention of the Board as there was a decision
about requests from Resource Members in 2017.  I don't know what the
Board will decide as a Board is usually more than one member's opinion.

There is a mention of a public summary in the minutes of May 2016.  I
found the following: http://r.elandsys.com/r/40408

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[Alan Levin]

Dear S.

The situation is apalling! The Southern rep is currently suspended from his
job we still do not know why  the rest of the board appears to have
jointly angered the CEO into resignation... I am surprised you have not
resigned yet why are you still there?

Alan

On Thu, 30 May 2019 at 20:40, S. Moonesamy  wrote:

> Dear Andrew,
> At 10:13 AM 30-05-2019, Andrew Alston wrote:
> >Is the board prepared to share the full unredacted accountability
> >assessment with the community  if it has not already been done (I
> >don't recall it have being done so)
>
> Thank you for contacting me.  In my opinion, it may possible to bring
> the request to the attention of the Board as there was a decision
> about requests from Resource Members in 2017.  I don't know what the
> Board will decide as a Board is usually more than one member's opinion.
>
> There is a mention of a public summary in the minutes of May 2016.  I
> found the following: http://r.elandsys.com/r/40408
>
> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[John Walu]

@Andrew

I thot AfriNIC has a well-established mechanism for supporting or not
supporting the current chair. I am sure you recall this used to happen
every year after new members join the board and a vote is called to either
extend or rotate the chairman position.

Am not sure if there has been a change this process and now the voting of
the Chair by board members happens on email ;-)

That said,

I had not bothered to read the board minutes under discussion but after
reading them, I am a bit surprised that 4years later, AfriNIC board is
still obsessed with 'information control' strategies when they should be
concerned with 'information sharing' strategies.

Strictly speaking, Afrinic, as a community network has really nothing worth
hiding (other than as per Data Protection Act/Regulations). Furthermore
trying to hide or suppress what is already a public document, does not send
a good signal to the community.

Dr. Bope, our Chairman, I am sure you can actually move beyond this and
focus the board in more progressive endeavors.

best regards and all the best.

walu.



On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 10:22 AM Andrew Alston <
andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

> Can we  conclude from the total lack of response to this email that in
> fact – there is no one willing to step up and say they support the current
> chair?  Either member or board member?
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Frank Habicht 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 28 May 2019 16:36
> *To:* community-discuss@afrinic.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> reading
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2018-minutes/20181231-minutes.pdf
>
> especially:
>
> SO stated that he had requested via email for the Board to announce the
> status of the AGMM quorum court case. He stated that the Chair had
> refused to do so, and the Chair had alleged that SO was looking for
> votes. SO had requested the Chair to withdraw the statement. The Chair
> stated that the Board had discussed the matter, and would communicate to
> the community at an appropriate time; based on that the Chair did not
> see a need to withdraw. SO again requested the Chair to withdraw the
> allegation that SO was looking for votes, and the Chair again refused to
> withdraw.
> 
>
> I conclude that the Chair actively tried to suppress information/updates
> from AfriNIC membership. He apparently had no good reason and was using
> the allegation of another board member "looking for votes" as only
> argument.
>
> Which member of AfriNIC wants to have such a chair at the AfriNIC board?
> Please identify yourselves positively.
>
> PS: I would also wish to know which other board members supported this
> decision by the chair.
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
>
>
>
> On 28/05/2019 16:18, Mark Elkins wrote:
> > Thinking about the CEO, reading the minutes (
> > https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf ) - I
> > think the best way out for the AfriNIC community is if the whole board
> > resigns - just leave the CEO. Andrew has got it right.
> >
> > On 2019/05/28 14:36, Andrew Alston wrote:
> >>
> >> Benjamin,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Let’s see – you have a public document – a document that is clearly
> >> and totally in the public domain.  You have an individual who was a
> >> named party in that document – who chose to share that document.  You
> >> have an active attempt by the board to sanction that individual for
> >> engaging with the community who he is meant to serve.  You have a
> >> statement by the chair of the board that the CEO does not serve the
> >> community but instead serves the board.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Effectively – you have a board attempting to censor the CEO from
> >> engaging with this community – in a bottom up organization that by
> >> legal representation during the IANA transition committed to the
> >> concepts of self determination of members and transparency and bottom
> >> up approach.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 1. That constitutes micro-management
> >> 2. In constitutes a total and utter failure of the board to adhere to
> >> the principles sworn to in the foundation of the organization in
> >> the original ICP2
> >> 3. It shows a total disregard for the obligations set out in section
> >> 3 of the bylaws to keep members informed of all things pertinent
> >> to the company
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What I see here – is nothing short of disgraceful – and I find it
> >> absolutely shocking that any board member who has a shred of ethics –
> >>

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mirriam via Community-Discuss]

Hi Andrew
I think you are now trolling and If I was you, I wouldn't put words into other 
people's (majority community) mouths.
Maybe people are not interested in responding since everyone (community and 
sponsors alike) is busy preparing for the upcoming AIS event in a couple of 
weeks as per attached. 
Mirriam.

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Andrew Alston]

Can we  conclude from the total lack of response to this email that in fact – 
there is no one willing to step up and say they support the current chair?  
Either member or board member?

Andrew

From: Frank Habicht 
Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2019 16:36
To: community-discuss@afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

Hi,

reading
https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2018-minutes/20181231-minutes.pdf<https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2018-minutes/20181231-minutes.pdf>

especially:

SO stated that he had requested via email for the Board to announce the
status of the AGMM quorum court case. He stated that the Chair had
refused to do so, and the Chair had alleged that SO was looking for
votes. SO had requested the Chair to withdraw the statement. The Chair
stated that the Board had discussed the matter, and would communicate to
the community at an appropriate time; based on that the Chair did not
see a need to withdraw. SO again requested the Chair to withdraw the
allegation that SO was looking for votes, and the Chair again refused to
withdraw.


I conclude that the Chair actively tried to suppress information/updates
from AfriNIC membership. He apparently had no good reason and was using
the allegation of another board member "looking for votes" as only argument.

Which member of AfriNIC wants to have such a chair at the AfriNIC board?
Please identify yourselves positively.

PS: I would also wish to know which other board members supported this
decision by the chair.

Thanks,
Frank



On 28/05/2019 16:18, Mark Elkins wrote:
> Thinking about the CEO, reading the minutes (
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf<https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf>
>  ) - I
> think the best way out for the AfriNIC community is if the whole board
> resigns - just leave the CEO. Andrew has got it right.
>
> On 2019/05/28 14:36, Andrew Alston wrote:
>>
>> Benjamin,
>>
>>
>>
>> Let’s see – you have a public document – a document that is clearly
>> and totally in the public domain.  You have an individual who was a
>> named party in that document – who chose to share that document.  You
>> have an active attempt by the board to sanction that individual for
>> engaging with the community who he is meant to serve.  You have a
>> statement by the chair of the board that the CEO does not serve the
>> community but instead serves the board.
>>
>>
>>
>> Effectively – you have a board attempting to censor the CEO from
>> engaging with this community – in a bottom up organization that by
>> legal representation during the IANA transition committed to the
>> concepts of self determination of members and transparency and bottom
>> up approach.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. That constitutes micro-management
>> 2. In constitutes a total and utter failure of the board to adhere to
>> the principles sworn to in the foundation of the organization in
>> the original ICP2
>> 3. It shows a total disregard for the obligations set out in section
>> 3 of the bylaws to keep members informed of all things pertinent
>> to the company
>>
>>
>>
>> What I see here – is nothing short of disgraceful – and I find it
>> absolutely shocking that any board member who has a shred of ethics –
>> would not have resigned in light of what is in those documents.  It is
>> a slap in the face of this community – and the entire global RIR
>> system – and I am disgusted and appalled.  I would say to Serge as a
>> starting point – if you have no shame – resign – now.  I would say to
>> the chair for your abject failure – resign – now.  I would say to
>> every member who consented to the final sections of that document –
>> resign – now.
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:*Benjamin Ledoh 
>> mailto:benjamin.le...@gmail.com>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 28 May 2019 15:01
>> *To:* Sander Steffann mailto:san...@steffann.nl>>
>> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC 
>> mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Sander,
>>
>> In your email to the community, you wrote
>>
>> > I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan
>> Barrett has to deal with.
>>
>> I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is related
>> to “micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved around the
>> procedure to publish the judgement, who should publish the judgement,
>> and the issue of NDA.
>>
>> Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing with

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[S. Moonesamy]

Dear Andrew,
At 10:13 AM 30-05-2019, Andrew Alston wrote:
Is the board prepared to share the full unredacted accountability 
assessment with the community  if it has not already been done (I 
don't recall it have being done so)


Thank you for contacting me.  In my opinion, it may possible to bring 
the request to the attention of the Board as there was a decision 
about requests from Resource Members in 2017.  I don't know what the 
Board will decide as a Board is usually more than one member's opinion.


There is a mention of a public summary in the minutes of May 2016.  I 
found the following: http://r.elandsys.com/r/40408


Regards,
S. Moonesamy 



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[Andrew Alston]

Is the board prepared to share the full unredacted accountability assessment 
with the community – if it has not already been done (I don’t recall it have 
being done so)

After all – if there is a report about how accountable Afrinic is to its 
members – I think it would be good for the members at least – and the wider 
community possibly to see this report

Andrew


From: "S. Moonesamy" 
Date: Thursday, 30 May 2019 at 18:16
To: Mike Silber , "community-discuss@afrinic.net" 

Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

Dear Mike,
At 03:16 AM 30-05-2019, Mike Silber wrote:
>As you well know, the Members include Registered Members, Resource
>Members and Associate Members, however only the Registered Members
>(i.e. the Directors) have any authority under the Mauritian
>Companies Act and the Resource Members and Associate Members have no
>legal standing under that Act.

I recall that there were comments about the above over the
years. There was an accountability assessment in 2015. There was a
meeting in November 2016 during which the Members were requested to
decide on improvements to the RIR accountability mechanisms. One or
more proposals which was, in my opinion, in the interests of Members
was rejected.

I would have to hire a lawyer to get a good view of what is mentioned
above as it is a complex matter. In my opinion legal standing would
depend on common law.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[Mike Silber]

My interpretation (as a non-Mauritian lawyer) that the court was simply 
upholding AfriNIC’s conferral of membership on resource members in the bylaws.

It was not inferring or conferring anything as I read it.

> On 30 May 2019, at 13:09, Andrew Alston  
> wrote:
> 
> Mike,
>  
> As a matter of interest – when the court ruled in the last case – saying that 
> quorum was made up of members of X number, irrespective of them being 
> registered, resource or otherwise.  Do you from a legal perspective believe 
> that ruling could be used to claim that the court has inferred status on 
> other members, or is that not the case?  I’m curious to know the answer from 
> a legal perspective.
>  
> Andrew
>  
>  
> From: Mike Silber  
> Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2019 13:16
> To: S. Moonesamy 
> Cc: community-discuss@afrinic.net
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)
>  
> Hi SM
> 
> > On 30 May 2019, at 11:39, S. Moonesamy  > <mailto:sm...@afrinic.net>> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I was reminded [1] of AFPUB-2018-GEN-001-DRAFT02 when I read the above.
> > 
> > I spent some time in December 2018 discussing about the legal aspects as it 
> > was difficult to understand the difference(s) mentioned above. In my 
> > opinion, there would be a compliance issue as Article 11.1 of the 
> > Constitution is applicable for an AGMM.
> > 
> As you well know, the Members include Registered Members, Resource Members 
> and Associate Members, however only the Registered Members (i.e. the 
> Directors) have any authority under the Mauritian Companies Act and the 
> Resource Members and Associate Members have no legal standing under that Act.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[S. Moonesamy]

Dear Mike,
At 03:16 AM 30-05-2019, Mike Silber wrote:
As you well know, the Members include Registered Members, Resource 
Members and Associate Members, however only the Registered Members 
(i.e. the Directors) have any authority under the Mauritian 
Companies Act and the Resource Members and Associate Members have no 
legal standing under that Act.


I recall that there were comments about the above over the 
years.  There was an accountability assessment in 2015.  There was a 
meeting in November 2016 during which the Members were requested to 
decide on improvements to the RIR accountability mechanisms.  One or 
more proposals which was, in my opinion, in the interests of Members 
was rejected.


I would have to hire a lawyer to get a good view of what is mentioned 
above as it is a complex matter.  In my opinion legal standing would 
depend on common law.


Regards,
S. Moonesamy  



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[Mike Silber]

Hi SM

> On 30 May 2019, at 11:39, S. Moonesamy  wrote:

> 
> I was reminded [1] of AFPUB-2018-GEN-001-DRAFT02 when I read the above.
> 
> I spent some time in December 2018 discussing about the legal aspects as it 
> was difficult to understand the difference(s) mentioned above.  In my 
> opinion, there would be a compliance issue as Article 11.1 of the 
> Constitution is applicable for an AGMM.
> 
As you well know, the Members include Registered Members, Resource Members and 
Associate Members, however only the Registered Members (i.e. the Directors) 
have any authority under the Mauritian Companies Act and the Resource Members 
and Associate Members have no legal standing under that Act.

Regards

Mike


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude (off-topic)

[S. Moonesamy]

Dear Mike,
At 08:02 AM 29-05-2019, Mike Silber wrote:
This is a useful resource - though many of the references are South 
African legal requirements, they are similar to many others found elsewhere.


Thank you for sharing those requirements.

I think one of the biggest challenges is that AfriNIC has not found 
a creative way of dealing with the difference between resource 
members and the legal corporate members under Mauritian law (a 
position currently occupied by the board).
 So [removed] was not wrong to say that the AGMM is at the pleasure 
of our directors and we as a community have very few rights in that 
regard. We have handed our mandate to a


I was reminded [1] of AFPUB-2018-GEN-001-DRAFT02 when I read the above.

I spent some time in December 2018 discussing about the legal aspects 
as it was difficult to understand the difference(s) mentioned 
above.  In my opinion, there would be a compliance issue as Article 
11.1 of the Constitution is applicable for an AGMM.


Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2019/009026.html 



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

+1… Well said, Dewole!!

Owen


> On May 29, 2019, at 2:32 AM, Adewole Ajao  wrote:
> 
> My worry in all of this is that these board meeting minutes imply that an 
> AFRINIC director (or directors) attempted to remove another director because 
> he "violated the NDA" by sharing a public document with the community. 
> 
> I rush to conclude that it was an attempt to remove a director from the board 
> because we have removed directors from the board in recent years solely on 
> the grounds of NDA violation. With the board NDA still in place, chances of 
> getting the full story from any of the parties involved are slim to none. I'm 
> not sure that this community (and company) can ever get to a point of proper 
> accountability/responsibility if so much is hidden under the cover of 
> confidentiality. 
> 
> Is there a globally acceptable standard of board confidentiality for 
> community-driven organizations that are responsible for managing public 
> resources? Can we look at improving the confidentiality agreement that is 
> used by the AFRINIC board? Although as per section 3.2.2 of its terms of 
> reference at https://www.afrinic.net/govcom#tor 
>  the Governance Committee may not provide 
> advice on specific internal proceedings of the board, section 3.1.4 puts the 
> issue of NDA within scope as it can be argued that the NDA signing is part of 
> the appointment process since it is the first thing a member does on 
> appointment to the board. Failing that, perhaps the CEO can refer it under 
> the provisions of section 3.1.7 so that a body outside the board can tackle 
> the issue?
> 
> In any case, it is best we look for a good way to get rid of this 
> us-versus-them that seems to keep recurring between the AFRINIC board and the 
> AFRINIC community on whose behalf it is elected to act. Getting rid of 
> unnecessary secrecy may be a good way to start. 
> 
> Regards,
> Dewole. 
> 
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 1:51 PM Sander Steffann  > wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I was just reading the board minutes at 
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf 
>  and I am 
> surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to deal 
> with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji seem to be reprimanded for 
> being open and transparent to this community. The summary of those minutes 
> show how the board has made it explicitly clear that the CEO is to have no 
> responsibility anymore towards this community.
> 
> Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my gratitude to 
> both Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this community involved in 
> Afrinic matters in an open and transparent way. I feel this is a strong 
> requirement for keeping Afrinic respected and supported by both its members 
> and its community.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Sander
> 
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> 
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 1:51 PM Sander Steffann  > wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I was just reading the board minutes at 
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf 
>  and I am 
> surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to deal 
> with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji seem to be reprimanded for 
> being open and transparent to this community. The summary of those minutes 
> show how the board has made it explicitly clear that the CEO is to have no 
> responsibility anymore towards this community.
> 
> Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my gratitude to 
> both Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this community involved in 
> Afrinic matters in an open and transparent way. I feel this is a strong 
> requirement for keeping Afrinic respected and supported by both its members 
> and its community.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Sander
> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Benjamin Ledoh]

Dear Sander and Mark,

Yesterday, following your submissions, I asked you one question each and it
seems to me that you have not read it or forgotten about it. They are
bellow:

To Sander -> Can you prove that "all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO
has been taken away"?

To Mark -> Has the CEO told you that he resigned because "all
responsibility and autonomy  has been taken away"?

Please could please answer them?

Thanks


Benjiloh



On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 1:08 PM Mark Elkins  wrote:

>
> On 2019/05/28 14:56, Benjamin Ledoh wrote:
>
> Dear Sander,
>
> You could not point out the issue of micromanagement in the minutes and
> moreover, you have made another mistake.
>
> Can you prove that "all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been
> taken away"?
>
> ... and you then wonder why the CEO has resigned?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Benjiloh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 12:31 PM Sander Steffann 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Benjamin,
>>
>> > In your email to the community, you wrote
>> >
>> > > I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett
>> has to deal with.
>> >
>> > I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is related
>> to “micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved around the procedure
>> to publish the judgement, who should publish the judgement, and the issue
>> of NDA.
>> >
>> > Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing with
>> the micro-management?
>>
>> The fact that all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken
>> away is the textbook example of micro management...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sander
>>
>>
>>
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>
> --
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mike Silber]

Hi Adewole

This is a useful resource - though many of the references are South African 
legal requirements, they are similar to many others found elsewhere.

http://www.governance.org.za/wp-content/uploads/NPO-Code-Web-Version.pdf 


I am not familiar with any "globally acceptable standard of board 
confidentiality for community-driven organizations that are responsible for 
managing public resources”. I think the best example is ICANN (yeah - it is 
kind of expected I WOULD say that). However, after the various accountability 
and transparency changes that have happened - I do think that ICANN is a useful 
example https://www.icann.org/resources/accountability 
 (as well as the new bylaws and 
the document disclosure policy - and the approach of proactively relating most 
information and not relying on DIDP requests). Critical is not just policies 
and standards - but actual practices that  demonstrate a commitment to 
transparency. I think ICANN has vastly improved its practices - but there is 
always room for improvement.

Transparency International has some great resources - but very focussed on 
corruption - so many are not that relevant: https://www.transparency.org 


A number of the Corporate Governance Codes do deal with transparency and 
confidentiality. While most regard transparency as positive - the focus of most 
codes is largely on commercial and specifically listed companies. In listed 
companies - information disclosure follows a regulated approach to avoid 
deception of the stock market and is not really analogous to a not for profit / 
community environment.

I think one of the biggest challenges is that AfriNIC has not found a creative 
way of dealing with the difference between resource members and the legal 
corporate members under Mauritian law (a position currently occupied by the 
board). So Mirriam was not wrong to say that the AGMM is at the pleasure of our 
directors and we as a community have very few rights in that regard. We have 
handed our mandate to a board and those minutes seem to indicate that some are 
not worthy of our trust. My sincere appreciation to those who are deserving of 
our trust!

I know that APNIC and ARIN had an almost identical corporate structuring 
concerns and they both found ways to deal with it to ensure that the power is 
in the hands of the community and not the board.

I hope AfriNIC is willing to listen to our discontent and actually be creative 
about this much debated issue.

Regards

Mike

> On 29 May 2019, at 11:32, Adewole Ajao  wrote:
> 
> My worry in all of this is that these board meeting minutes imply that an 
> AFRINIC director (or directors) attempted to remove another director because 
> he "violated the NDA" by sharing a public document with the community. 
> 
> I rush to conclude that it was an attempt to remove a director from the board 
> because we have removed directors from the board in recent years solely on 
> the grounds of NDA violation. With the board NDA still in place, chances of 
> getting the full story from any of the parties involved are slim to none. I'm 
> not sure that this community (and company) can ever get to a point of proper 
> accountability/responsibility if so much is hidden under the cover of 
> confidentiality. 
> 
> Is there a globally acceptable standard of board confidentiality for 
> community-driven organizations that are responsible for managing public 
> resources? Can we look at improving the confidentiality agreement that is 
> used by the AFRINIC board? Although as per section 3.2.2 of its terms of 
> reference at https://www.afrinic.net/govcom#tor 
>  the Governance Committee may not provide 
> advice on specific internal proceedings of the board, section 3.1.4 puts the 
> issue of NDA within scope as it can be argued that the NDA signing is part of 
> the appointment process since it is the first thing a member does on 
> appointment to the board. Failing that, perhaps the CEO can refer it under 
> the provisions of section 3.1.7 so that a body outside the board can tackle 
> the issue?
> 
> In any case, it is best we look for a good way to get rid of this 
> us-versus-them that seems to keep recurring between the AFRINIC board and the 
> AFRINIC community on whose behalf it is elected to act. Getting rid of 
> unnecessary secrecy may be a good way to start. 
> 
> Regards,
> Dewole. 
> 
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 1:51 PM Sander Steffann  > wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I was just reading the board minutes at 
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf 
>  and I am 
> surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to deal 
> with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[DANIEL NANGHAKA]

I think the mandate of AFRINIC has to be visited.
I am for Accountable leadership and transparency. The community deserves
accountability to what is happening. If the documents are for public
domain, then nothing should be hidden.
ᐧ

On Wed, 29 May 2019 at 12:33, Adewole Ajao  wrote:

> My worry in all of this is that these board meeting minutes imply that an
> AFRINIC director (or directors) attempted to remove another director
> because he "violated the NDA" by sharing a public document with the
> community.
>
> I rush to conclude that it was an attempt to remove a director from the
> board because we have removed directors from the board in recent years
> solely on the grounds of NDA violation. With the board NDA still in place,
> chances of getting the full story from any of the parties involved are slim
> to none. I'm not sure that this community (and company) can ever get to a
> point of proper accountability/responsibility if so much is hidden under
> the cover of confidentiality.
>
> Is there a globally acceptable standard of board confidentiality for
> community-driven organizations that are responsible for managing public
> resources? Can we look at improving the confidentiality agreement that is
> used by the AFRINIC board? Although as per section 3.2.2 of its terms of
> reference at https://www.afrinic.net/govcom#tor the Governance Committee
> may not provide advice on specific internal proceedings of the board,
> section 3.1.4 puts the issue of NDA within scope as it can be argued that
> the NDA signing is part of the appointment process since it is the first
> thing a member does on appointment to the board. Failing that, perhaps the
> CEO can refer it under the provisions of section 3.1.7 so that a body
> outside the board can tackle the issue?
>
> In any case, it is best we look for a good way to get rid of this
> us-versus-them that seems to keep recurring between the AFRINIC board and
> the AFRINIC community on whose behalf it is elected to act. Getting rid of
> unnecessary secrecy may be a good way to start.
>
> Regards,
> Dewole.
>
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 1:51 PM Sander Steffann 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I was just reading the board minutes at
>> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf and I
>> am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to
>> deal with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji seem to be
>> reprimanded for being open and transparent to this community. The summary
>> of those minutes show how the board has made it explicitly clear that the
>> CEO is to have no responsibility anymore towards this community.
>>
>> Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my gratitude to
>> both Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this community involved in
>> Afrinic matters in an open and transparent way. I feel this is a strong
>> requirement for keeping Afrinic respected and supported by both its members
>> and its community.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Sander
>>
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>
>
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 1:51 PM Sander Steffann 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I was just reading the board minutes at
>> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf and I
>> am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to
>> deal with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji seem to be
>> reprimanded for being open and transparent to this community. The summary
>> of those minutes show how the board has made it explicitly clear that the
>> CEO is to have no responsibility anymore towards this community.
>>
>> Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my gratitude to
>> both Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this community involved in
>> Afrinic matters in an open and transparent way. I feel this is a strong
>> requirement for keeping Afrinic respected and supported by both its members
>> and its community.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Sander
>>
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-- 
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(ICANN At-Large)/ former Chair - FOSSFA  / Geo4Africa Lead / Organising
Team - FOSS4G2018
Mobile +256 772 898298 (Uganda)
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Adewole Ajao]

My worry in all of this is that these board meeting minutes imply that an
AFRINIC director (or directors) attempted to remove another director
because he "violated the NDA" by sharing a public document with the
community.

I rush to conclude that it was an attempt to remove a director from the
board because we have removed directors from the board in recent years
solely on the grounds of NDA violation. With the board NDA still in place,
chances of getting the full story from any of the parties involved are slim
to none. I'm not sure that this community (and company) can ever get to a
point of proper accountability/responsibility if so much is hidden under
the cover of confidentiality.

Is there a globally acceptable standard of board confidentiality for
community-driven organizations that are responsible for managing public
resources? Can we look at improving the confidentiality agreement that is
used by the AFRINIC board? Although as per section 3.2.2 of its terms of
reference at https://www.afrinic.net/govcom#tor the Governance Committee
may not provide advice on specific internal proceedings of the board,
section 3.1.4 puts the issue of NDA within scope as it can be argued that
the NDA signing is part of the appointment process since it is the first
thing a member does on appointment to the board. Failing that, perhaps the
CEO can refer it under the provisions of section 3.1.7 so that a body
outside the board can tackle the issue?

In any case, it is best we look for a good way to get rid of this
us-versus-them that seems to keep recurring between the AFRINIC board and
the AFRINIC community on whose behalf it is elected to act. Getting rid of
unnecessary secrecy may be a good way to start.

Regards,
Dewole.

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 1:51 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I was just reading the board minutes at
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf and I
> am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to
> deal with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji seem to be
> reprimanded for being open and transparent to this community. The summary
> of those minutes show how the board has made it explicitly clear that the
> CEO is to have no responsibility anymore towards this community.
>
> Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my gratitude to
> both Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this community involved in
> Afrinic matters in an open and transparent way. I feel this is a strong
> requirement for keeping Afrinic respected and supported by both its members
> and its community.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sander
>
> ___
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> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss


On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 1:51 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I was just reading the board minutes at
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf and I
> am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to
> deal with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji seem to be
> reprimanded for being open and transparent to this community. The summary
> of those minutes show how the board has made it explicitly clear that the
> CEO is to have no responsibility anymore towards this community.
>
> Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my gratitude to
> both Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this community involved in
> Afrinic matters in an open and transparent way. I feel this is a strong
> requirement for keeping Afrinic respected and supported by both its members
> and its community.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sander
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mirriam via Community-Discuss]

Gentlemen,
The "AGMM is a board prerogative and the board follows normal practices in 
dealing with it.
Even if in the case of AfriNIC,  the CEO ends up being a full board member, 
instead of an ex-officio,  the CEO ought to respect separation between the 
board and management.
In all cases the said document was finally released by the board for members 
and us the community to see as published on the AfriNIC website.
Now members and the community are preparing  for another successful AGMM.
Therefore nothing like this continuous attempt to divide the community, should  
disturb the course of actions.
See you all in Uganda,Mirriam.


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mirriam via Community-Discuss]

Gentlemen,
The "AGMM is a board prerogative and the board follows normal practices in 
dealing with it.
Even if in the case of AfriNIC,  the CEO ends up being a full board member, 
instead of an ex-officio,  the CEO ought to respect separation between the 
board and management.
In all cases the said document was finally released by the board for members 
and us the community to see as published on the AfriNIC website.
Now members and the community are preparing for another successful  AGMM.
Therefore nothing like this continuous attempt to divide the community, should  
disturb the course of actions.
See you all in Uganda,Mirriam
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 4:38 PM, Frank Habicht wrote:   I 
had forgotten to mention:

On 28/05/2019 13:49, Frank Habicht wrote:
> In case this request does not work, I would ask any new board member of
> AfriNIC to share the NDA document on social media or public mailing list
> before signing it. Before they have to adhere to the NDA.

any commitment to do that would probably gain the candidate some extra
votes
;-)

Frank


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Frank Habicht]

Hi,

reading
https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2018-minutes/20181231-minutes.pdf

especially:

SO stated that he had requested via email for the Board to announce the
status of the AGMM quorum court case. He stated that the Chair had
refused to do so, and the Chair had alleged that SO was looking for
votes. SO had requested the Chair to withdraw the statement. The Chair
stated that the Board had discussed the matter, and would communicate to
the community at an appropriate time; based on that the Chair did not
see a need to withdraw. SO again requested the Chair to withdraw the
allegation that SO was looking for votes, and the Chair again refused to
withdraw.


I conclude that the Chair actively tried to suppress information/updates
from AfriNIC membership. He apparently had no good reason and was using
the allegation of another board member "looking for votes" as only argument.

Which member of AfriNIC wants to have such a chair at the AfriNIC board?
Please identify yourselves positively.

PS: I would also wish to know which other board members supported this
decision by the chair.

Thanks,
Frank



On 28/05/2019 16:18, Mark Elkins wrote:
> Thinking about the CEO, reading the minutes (
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf ) - I
> think the best way out for the AfriNIC community is if the whole board
> resigns - just leave the CEO. Andrew has got it right.
> 
> On 2019/05/28 14:36, Andrew Alston wrote:
>>
>> Benjamin,
>>
>>  
>>
>> Let’s see – you have a public document – a document that is clearly
>> and totally in the public domain.  You have an individual who was a
>> named party in that document – who chose to share that document.  You
>> have an active attempt by the board to sanction that individual for
>> engaging with the community who he is meant to serve.  You have a
>> statement by the chair of the board that the CEO does not serve the
>> community but instead serves the board.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Effectively – you have a board attempting to censor the CEO from
>> engaging with this community – in a bottom up organization that by
>> legal representation during the IANA transition committed to the
>> concepts of self determination of members and transparency and bottom
>> up approach. 
>>
>>  
>>
>>  1. That constitutes micro-management
>>  2. In constitutes a total and utter failure of the board to adhere to
>> the principles sworn to in the foundation of the organization in
>> the original ICP2
>>  3. It shows a total disregard for the obligations set out in section
>> 3 of the bylaws to keep members informed of all things pertinent
>> to the company
>>
>>  
>>
>> What I see here – is nothing short of disgraceful – and I find it
>> absolutely shocking that any board member who has a shred of ethics –
>> would not have resigned in light of what is in those documents.  It is
>> a slap in the face of this community – and the entire global RIR
>> system – and I am disgusted and appalled.  I would say to Serge as a
>> starting point – if you have no shame – resign – now.  I would say to
>> the chair for your abject failure – resign – now.  I would say to
>> every member who consented to the final sections of that document –
>> resign – now.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:*Benjamin Ledoh 
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 28 May 2019 15:01
>> *To:* Sander Steffann 
>> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude
>>
>>  
>>
>> Dear Sander,
>>
>> In your email to the community, you wrote
>>
>> > I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan
>> Barrett has to deal with.
>>
>> I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is related
>> to “micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved around the
>> procedure to publish the judgement, who should publish the judgement,
>> and the issue of NDA.
>>
>> Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing with
>> the micro-management?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>> Benjiloh
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 12:50 PM Sander Steffann > <mailto:san...@steffann.nl>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I was just reading the board minutes at
>> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf
>> and I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan
>> Barrett has to deal with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun
>> Ojedeji s

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mark Elkins]

Thinking about the CEO, reading the minutes ( 
https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf ) - I 
think the best way out for the AfriNIC community is if the whole board 
resigns - just leave the CEO. Andrew has got it right.


On 2019/05/28 14:36, Andrew Alston wrote:


Benjamin,

Let’s see – you have a public document – a document that is clearly 
and totally in the public domain. You have an individual who was a 
named party in that document – who chose to share that document.  You 
have an active attempt by the board to sanction that individual for 
engaging with the community who he is meant to serve.  You have a 
statement by the chair of the board that the CEO does not serve the 
community but instead serves the board.


Effectively – you have a board attempting to censor the CEO from 
engaging with this community – in a bottom up organization that by 
legal representation during the IANA transition committed to the 
concepts of self determination of members and transparency and bottom 
up approach.


 1. That constitutes micro-management
 2. In constitutes a total and utter failure of the board to adhere to
the principles sworn to in the foundation of the organization in
the original ICP2
 3. It shows a total disregard for the obligations set out in section
3 of the bylaws to keep members informed of all things pertinent
to the company

What I see here – is nothing short of disgraceful – and I find it 
absolutely shocking that any board member who has a shred of ethics – 
would not have resigned in light of what is in those documents.  It is 
a slap in the face of this community – and the entire global RIR 
system – and I am disgusted and appalled.  I would say to Serge as a 
starting point – if you have no shame – resign – now.  I would say to 
the chair for your abject failure – resign – now.  I would say to 
every member who consented to the final sections of that document – 
resign – now.


Andrew

*From:*Benjamin Ledoh 
*Sent:* Tuesday, 28 May 2019 15:01
*To:* Sander Steffann 
*Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC 
*Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

Dear Sander,

In your email to the community, you wrote

> I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan 
Barrett has to deal with.


I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is related 
to “micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved around the 
procedure to publish the judgement, who should publish the judgement, 
and the issue of NDA.


Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing with 
the micro-management?


Thank you,


Benjiloh

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 12:50 PM Sander Steffann <mailto:san...@steffann.nl>> wrote:


Hello,

I was just reading the board minutes at
https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf
and I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan
Barrett has to deal with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun
Ojedeji seem to be reprimanded for being open and transparent to
this community. The summary of those minutes show how the board
has made it explicitly clear that the CEO is to have no
responsibility anymore towards this community.

Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my
gratitude to both Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this
community involved in Afrinic matters in an open and transparent
way. I feel this is a strong requirement for keeping Afrinic
respected and supported by both its members and its community.

Sincerely,
Sander

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Benjamin Ledoh]

Dear Mark,

Has the CEO told you that he resigned because "all responsibility and
autonomy  has been taken away"?

Thanks


Benjiloh

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 1:08 PM Mark Elkins  wrote:

>
> On 2019/05/28 14:56, Benjamin Ledoh wrote:
>
> Dear Sander,
>
> You could not point out the issue of micromanagement in the minutes and
> moreover, you have made another mistake.
>
> Can you prove that "all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been
> taken away"?
>
> ... and you then wonder why the CEO has resigned?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Benjiloh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 12:31 PM Sander Steffann 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Benjamin,
>>
>> > In your email to the community, you wrote
>> >
>> > > I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett
>> has to deal with.
>> >
>> > I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is related
>> to “micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved around the procedure
>> to publish the judgement, who should publish the judgement, and the issue
>> of NDA.
>> >
>> > Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing with
>> the micro-management?
>>
>> The fact that all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken
>> away is the textbook example of micro management...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sander
>>
>>
>>
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>
> --
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> Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Mark Elkins]

On 2019/05/28 14:56, Benjamin Ledoh wrote:

Dear Sander,

You could not point out the issue of micromanagement in the minutes 
and moreover, you have made another mistake.


Can you prove that "all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has 
been taken away"?


... and you then wonder why the CEO has resigned?




Thanks


Benjiloh









On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 12:31 PM Sander Steffann > wrote:


Hello Benjamin,

> In your email to the community, you wrote
>
> > I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan
Barrett has to deal with.
>
> I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is
related to “micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved
around the procedure to publish the judgement, who should publish
the judgement, and the issue of NDA.
>
> Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing
with the micro-management?

The fact that all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been
taken away is the textbook example of micro management...

Cheers,
Sander



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Benjamin Ledoh]

Dear Sander,

You could not point out the issue of micromanagement in the minutes and
moreover, you have made another mistake.

Can you prove that "all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been
taken away"?

Thanks


Benjiloh









On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 12:31 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:

> Hello Benjamin,
>
> > In your email to the community, you wrote
> >
> > > I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett
> has to deal with.
> >
> > I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is related to
> “micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved around the procedure to
> publish the judgement, who should publish the judgement, and the issue of
> NDA.
> >
> > Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing with
> the micro-management?
>
> The fact that all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken
> away is the textbook example of micro management...
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
>
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Andrew Alston]

Benjamin,

Let’s see – you have a public document – a document that is clearly and totally 
in the public domain.  You have an individual who was a named party in that 
document – who chose to share that document.  You have an active attempt by the 
board to sanction that individual for engaging with the community who he is 
meant to serve.  You have a statement by the chair of the board that the CEO 
does not serve the community but instead serves the board.

Effectively – you have a board attempting to censor the CEO from engaging with 
this community – in a bottom up organization that by legal representation 
during the IANA transition committed to the concepts of self determination of 
members and transparency and bottom up approach.


  1.  That constitutes micro-management
  2.  In constitutes a total and utter failure of the board to adhere to the 
principles sworn to in the foundation of the organization in the original ICP2
  3.  It shows a total disregard for the obligations set out in section 3 of 
the bylaws to keep members informed of all things pertinent to the company

What I see here – is nothing short of disgraceful – and I find it absolutely 
shocking that any board member who has a shred of ethics – would not have 
resigned in light of what is in those documents.  It is a slap in the face of 
this community – and the entire global RIR system – and I am disgusted and 
appalled.  I would say to Serge as a starting point – if you have no shame – 
resign – now.  I would say to the chair for your abject failure – resign – now. 
 I would say to every member who consented to the final sections of that 
document – resign – now.

Andrew


From: Benjamin Ledoh 
Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2019 15:01
To: Sander Steffann 
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

Dear Sander,

In your email to the community, you wrote

> I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to 
> deal with.

I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is related to 
“micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved around the procedure to 
publish the judgement, who should publish the judgement, and the issue of NDA.

Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing with the 
micro-management?

Thank you,


Benjiloh

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 12:50 PM Sander Steffann 
mailto:san...@steffann.nl>> wrote:
Hello,

I was just reading the board minutes at 
https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf<https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf>
 and I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has 
to deal with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji seem to be 
reprimanded for being open and transparent to this community. The summary of 
those minutes show how the board has made it explicitly clear that the CEO is 
to have no responsibility anymore towards this community.

Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my gratitude to both 
Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this community involved in Afrinic 
matters in an open and transparent way. I feel this is a strong requirement for 
keeping Afrinic respected and supported by both its members and its community.

Sincerely,
Sander

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Sander Steffann]

Hello Benjamin,

> In your email to the community, you wrote
> 
> > I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has 
> > to deal with.
> 
> I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is related to 
> “micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved around the procedure to 
> publish the judgement, who should publish the judgement, and the issue of 
> NDA. 
> 
> Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing with the 
> micro-management?

The fact that all responsibility and autonomy of the CEO has been taken away is 
the textbook example of micro management...

Cheers,
Sander



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Benjamin Ledoh]

Dear Sander,

In your email to the community, you wrote

> I am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has
to deal with.

I have read the minutes and I could not see any trace that is related to
“micro-management”. Rather the discussion revolved around the procedure to
publish the judgement, who should publish the judgement, and the issue of
NDA.

Could you please show me in the minutes the part that is dealing with the
micro-management?

Thank you,


Benjiloh


On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 12:50 PM Sander Steffann  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I was just reading the board minutes at
> https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/2019-minutes/20190305-minutes.pdf and I
> am surprised at the level of micro-management that CEO Alan Barrett has to
> deal with. In those minutes both Alan and Seun Ojedeji seem to be
> reprimanded for being open and transparent to this community. The summary
> of those minutes show how the board has made it explicitly clear that the
> CEO is to have no responsibility anymore towards this community.
>
> Therefore I would like to explicitly and publicly express my gratitude to
> both Alan and Seun for their efforts to keep this community involved in
> Afrinic matters in an open and transparent way. I feel this is a strong
> requirement for keeping Afrinic respected and supported by both its members
> and its community.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sander
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Barry Macharia via Community-Discuss]

I agree with you on this since the NDA has always been white elephant in the 
room 
let members have a look or say on it 

regards
Barry macharia 

> On 28 May 2019, at 13:49, Frank Habicht  wrote:
> 
> Dear AfriNIC board members,
> 
> reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
> items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
> are to adhere to.
> 
> Can you share the document please?
> 
> I'm convinced that people have seen it before they signed the NDA.
> Because they have to read it before they sign it.
> So the NDA is shared before coming into effect for any (new) board
> member. So I trust the NDA doesn't fall under the NDA, because it is
> information that people get before signing the NDA.
> 
> If more good reasons to share it are required:
> For arguments' sake, let's assume someone wants to become a board
> member, through being a candidate and winning elections: would it not be
> fair to share before this process the document that this person would be
> required to sign when elected?
> 
> In case this request does not work, I would ask any new board member of
> AfriNIC to share the NDA document on social media or public mailing list
> before signing it. Before they have to adhere to the NDA.
> 
> It's just more transparency ;-)
> 
> Thanks,
> Frank
> 
> 
> On 28/05/2019 09:13, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> Yes, I have to echo what Sander says here…
>> 
>> The topic title is intentionally inflammatory and misleading
>> (“Management violation of a contractual obligation”) as if management
>> has a contractual obligation to hide public documents from this community?
>> 
>> The document disclosed by Alan to the community was a matter of public
>> record. Anyone can obtain it directly from the courts in Mauritius
>> independently. There was no reason whatsoever for Alan to consider it
>> confidential and the fact that the board would even think such a thing
>> was possible, let alone desirable shows just how out of touch the
>> majority of the AfriNIC board is with their duties and obligations as a
>> board.
>> 
>> I wish to applaud Seun Ojedeji, Habib Youssef, Robert Ford, as the few
>> sane voices in the discussion advocating on behalf of AfriNIC members
>> and the community.
>> 
>> I wish to particularly call out Serge Ilunga and S. Moonesamy for their
>> particularly absurd idea that a CEO or a board member should or could be
>> enjoined from disclosing a PUBLIC DOCUMENT to members of the community.
>> There is no service to the board and no possibility whatsoever that the
>> document is confidential or contains any form of privileged information
>> since it is a matter of public record. How can these two board members
>> not see that this would be equivalent to faulting the CEO or other board
>> members for quoting from the front page of the New York Times about a
>> relevant article on the community-discuss list without first clearing it
>> with the boar. This is a circus staged purely for the point of abusing
>> the community trust and we should not stand for it.
>> 
>> Any member of the board who feels that there is any legitimacy in
>> opposing the disclosure of a published piece of public record of
>> interest to the community has no business being a board member. It’s
>> quite simply a flagrant violation of the trust of the community.
>> 
>> I also want to call attention to the following quote from Mr. Ousmane Ly
>> which is not only tautological in nature, but says absolutely nothing:
>> 
>>"OL reiterated that it is important for the AfriNIC officials to
>>respect the rules. If the CEO is found in fault, then a sanction may
>>be imposed according to the rules. Board members should be
>>responsible to the Board and AfriNIC as a whole and not to the group
>>nominating him." 
>> 
>> Apparently he since the minutes state that he reiterated this
>> nonsensical statement, he felt compelled to make it more than once.
>> 
>> Robert Ford’s perfectly logical initial statement on this subject is,
>> however, somewhat tempered by his later absurd comment:
>> 
>>"RF agreed that the CEO should have consulted the Chair. It was not
>>clear what was the urgency that made the CEO not to await a Board
>>approval. "
>> 
>> Perhaps the CEO didn’t so much seek board approval or even chair
>> approval as “advised the chair of his intent to publish” which would be
>> what I would have expected under the circumstances. There was perhaps no
>> urgency, per se, but there was also no reason to delay publication of a
>> document which was technically already published in other fora and
>> readily available to anyone who wished to obtain it from the courts of
>> Mauritius.
>> 
>> From the outside, looking in on this discussion, it appears to me that
>> some fraction of the board got all butt-hurt because they weren’t
>> allowed to control the timing and content of the release of information
>> to the community when there was no valid reason 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Frank Habicht]

Dear AfriNIC board members,

reference is made in below email, and also in several other discussion
items regarding AfriNIC and its governance, to an NDA that board members
are to adhere to.

Can you share the document please?

I'm convinced that people have seen it before they signed the NDA.
Because they have to read it before they sign it.
So the NDA is shared before coming into effect for any (new) board
member. So I trust the NDA doesn't fall under the NDA, because it is
information that people get before signing the NDA.

If more good reasons to share it are required:
For arguments' sake, let's assume someone wants to become a board
member, through being a candidate and winning elections: would it not be
fair to share before this process the document that this person would be
required to sign when elected?

In case this request does not work, I would ask any new board member of
AfriNIC to share the NDA document on social media or public mailing list
before signing it. Before they have to adhere to the NDA.

It's just more transparency ;-)

Thanks,
Frank


On 28/05/2019 09:13, Owen DeLong wrote:
> Yes, I have to echo what Sander says here…
> 
> The topic title is intentionally inflammatory and misleading
> (“Management violation of a contractual obligation”) as if management
> has a contractual obligation to hide public documents from this community?
> 
> The document disclosed by Alan to the community was a matter of public
> record. Anyone can obtain it directly from the courts in Mauritius
> independently. There was no reason whatsoever for Alan to consider it
> confidential and the fact that the board would even think such a thing
> was possible, let alone desirable shows just how out of touch the
> majority of the AfriNIC board is with their duties and obligations as a
> board.
> 
> I wish to applaud Seun Ojedeji, Habib Youssef, Robert Ford, as the few
> sane voices in the discussion advocating on behalf of AfriNIC members
> and the community.
> 
> I wish to particularly call out Serge Ilunga and S. Moonesamy for their
> particularly absurd idea that a CEO or a board member should or could be
> enjoined from disclosing a PUBLIC DOCUMENT to members of the community.
> There is no service to the board and no possibility whatsoever that the
> document is confidential or contains any form of privileged information
> since it is a matter of public record. How can these two board members
> not see that this would be equivalent to faulting the CEO or other board
> members for quoting from the front page of the New York Times about a
> relevant article on the community-discuss list without first clearing it
> with the boar. This is a circus staged purely for the point of abusing
> the community trust and we should not stand for it.
> 
> Any member of the board who feels that there is any legitimacy in
> opposing the disclosure of a published piece of public record of
> interest to the community has no business being a board member. It’s
> quite simply a flagrant violation of the trust of the community.
> 
> I also want to call attention to the following quote from Mr. Ousmane Ly
> which is not only tautological in nature, but says absolutely nothing:
> 
> "OL reiterated that it is important for the AfriNIC officials to
> respect the rules. If the CEO is found in fault, then a sanction may
> be imposed according to the rules. Board members should be
> responsible to the Board and AfriNIC as a whole and not to the group
> nominating him." 
> 
> Apparently he since the minutes state that he reiterated this
> nonsensical statement, he felt compelled to make it more than once.
> 
> Robert Ford’s perfectly logical initial statement on this subject is,
> however, somewhat tempered by his later absurd comment:
> 
> "RF agreed that the CEO should have consulted the Chair. It was not
> clear what was the urgency that made the CEO not to await a Board
> approval. "
> 
> Perhaps the CEO didn’t so much seek board approval or even chair
> approval as “advised the chair of his intent to publish” which would be
> what I would have expected under the circumstances. There was perhaps no
> urgency, per se, but there was also no reason to delay publication of a
> document which was technically already published in other fora and
> readily available to anyone who wished to obtain it from the courts of
> Mauritius.
> 
> From the outside, looking in on this discussion, it appears to me that
> some fraction of the board got all butt-hurt because they weren’t
> allowed to control the timing and content of the release of information
> to the community when there was no valid reason for them to do so. I
> mean really, what possible harm comes from this disclosure? In reality,
> CEO acted in the best interests of all parties… Community, Membership,
> and Board in making a timely and up front direct honest and true
> disclosure of the court documents to the community.
> 
> I have to ask what kind of 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Gratitude

[Owen DeLong]

Yes, I have to echo what Sander says here…

The topic title is intentionally inflammatory and misleading (“Management 
violation of a contractual obligation”) as if management has a contractual 
obligation to hide public documents from this community?

The document disclosed by Alan to the community was a matter of public record. 
Anyone can obtain it directly from the courts in Mauritius independently. There 
was no reason whatsoever for Alan to consider it confidential and the fact that 
the board would even think such a thing was possible, let alone desirable shows 
just how out of touch the majority of the AfriNIC board is with their duties 
and obligations as a board.

I wish to applaud Seun Ojedeji, Habib Youssef, Robert Ford, as the few sane 
voices in the discussion advocating on behalf of AfriNIC members and the 
community.

I wish to particularly call out Serge Ilunga and S. Moonesamy for their 
particularly absurd idea that a CEO or a board member should or could be 
enjoined from disclosing a PUBLIC DOCUMENT to members of the community. There 
is no service to the board and no possibility whatsoever that the document is 
confidential or contains any form of privileged information since it is a 
matter of public record. How can these two board members not see that this 
would be equivalent to faulting the CEO or other board members for quoting from 
the front page of the New York Times about a relevant article on the 
community-discuss list without first clearing it with the boar. This is a 
circus staged purely for the point of abusing the community trust and we should 
not stand for it.

Any member of the board who feels that there is any legitimacy in opposing the 
disclosure of a published piece of public record of interest to the community 
has no business being a board member. It’s quite simply a flagrant violation of 
the trust of the community.

I also want to call attention to the following quote from Mr. Ousmane Ly which 
is not only tautological in nature, but says absolutely nothing:

"OL reiterated that it is important for the AfriNIC officials to respect the 
rules. If the CEO is found in fault, then a sanction may be imposed according 
to the rules. Board members should be responsible to the Board and AfriNIC as a 
whole and not to the group nominating him." 

Apparently he since the minutes state that he reiterated this nonsensical 
statement, he felt compelled to make it more than once.

Robert Ford’s perfectly logical initial statement on this subject is, however, 
somewhat tempered by his later absurd comment:

"RF agreed that the CEO should have consulted the Chair. It was not clear what 
was the urgency that made the CEO not to await a Board approval. "

Perhaps the CEO didn’t so much seek board approval or even chair approval as 
“advised the chair of his intent to publish” which would be what I would have 
expected under the circumstances. There was perhaps no urgency, per se, but 
there was also no reason to delay publication of a document which was 
technically already published in other fora and readily available to anyone who 
wished to obtain it from the courts of Mauritius.

From the outside, looking in on this discussion, it appears to me that some 
fraction of the board got all butt-hurt because they weren’t allowed to control 
the timing and content of the release of information to the community when 
there was no valid reason for them to do so. I mean really, what possible harm 
comes from this disclosure? In reality, CEO acted in the best interests of all 
parties… Community, Membership, and Board in making a timely and up front 
direct honest and true disclosure of the court documents to the community.

I have to ask what kind of shenanigans or subterfuge those board members 
intended by delaying publication or altering the disclosure? Sunlight is the 
best disinfectant and to me, the only questionable actions here are the actions 
of the board members seeking to limit disclosure to the community.

Any board member which would make such a statement as Mr. Vika Mpisane did here:

"The Board Chair needs to meet the CEO to make him aware of his 
responsibilities in detail towards the Board, and to appreciate that he is 
accountable to the Board and not to the community members.”

Demonstrates not only a lack of understanding of his position as a board 
member, but so thorough a lack of understanding of how the accountability of 
this organization should function that he has, IMHO, no business sitting on the 
board until he can demonstrate that he has been sufficiently retrained. The 
board and the CEO must be accountable to the membership and the community. Yes, 
the CEO must be accountable to the board in how he runs the organization, but 
that does not relieve him of his accountability to the membership and the 
community.. The board is kept accountable to the membership by virtue of the 
election process (and by extension to the community as the membership is