Re: [computer-go] ICGA 2007 MoGo-Steenvreter
2007/6/15, Magnus Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If this line is correct then it was Steenvreeter that played a bad move at 51, but Mogo failed to take advantage of this subtle mistake and lost with move 52. Now of course this line is not correct either because after 50 black A6 H4! H5 J3 F9 B8! E9 A9 A8 C9 C6 A9 and white wins with at least 1.5 points. Indeed. If the upper left corner is alive, H4 is the way to go. So Steenvriter was losing until Mogo played 52. This suggests that black should continue the ko fight with 47 at G2, I think. One possible continuation is: 46 G2 C6 C5 G3 J2 A6 B5 G2 H4 A5 J1 This seems to be a seki but white wins? Is there better play for black? -- Seo Sanghyeon ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] ICGA 2007 MoGo-Steenvreter
This is my analysis. It may be flawed but I hope it has some value. It would be very interesting to see what mogo thinks on those variations. Best Regards, Lukasz On 6/14/07, Sylvain Gelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Sanghyeon, thank you for your comments. After white (mogo) H2, MoGo was estimating 74%, and expecting: H2 G1 H3 B1 A1 B3 H1 F8 B5 H4 This is far too optimistic. Why would black play H2? :-) Sorry, white played H2. The sequence I gave starts with white move :). Black was expecting to play G1 :). Black played H3, and estimation increased to 81%, white B3 and expecting: B3 B1 A1 B4 C5 C4 A3 C6 B6 B5 After B3 B1 A1, black G1 and then B1 F1 D1 B4 and white is dead. Ok thanks. So good white actually played G1 instead of A1 after black B1 then. Actually during pondering MoGo realized that it was lost then, because black played the expected move (B1), but the estimation was then 50%. MoGo realized too. Actually G1 is an interesting move. After white 48, all groups on the board is alive and white actually wins by my counting. So I think that white 50 is a losing move. Oh, so contrary to what I believed, you say (if I understand you correctly) that the mistake was done in the upper left group and not in the bottom center group? Thank you, Sylvain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ tour_169-round_9-game_2-analysis.sgf Description: Binary data ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] ICGA 2007 MoGo-Steenvreter
Hello all, thank you all for all your precise comments. It becomes pretty complicated and technical for me, I'll try to find out everything :). Bye, Sylvain 2007/6/15, Łukasz Lew [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is my analysis. It may be flawed but I hope it has some value. It would be very interesting to see what mogo thinks on those variations. Best Regards, Lukasz On 6/14/07, Sylvain Gelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Sanghyeon, thank you for your comments. After white (mogo) H2, MoGo was estimating 74%, and expecting: H2 G1 H3 B1 A1 B3 H1 F8 B5 H4 This is far too optimistic. Why would black play H2? :-) Sorry, white played H2. The sequence I gave starts with white move :). Black was expecting to play G1 :). Black played H3, and estimation increased to 81%, white B3 and expecting: B3 B1 A1 B4 C5 C4 A3 C6 B6 B5 After B3 B1 A1, black G1 and then B1 F1 D1 B4 and white is dead. Ok thanks. So good white actually played G1 instead of A1 after black B1 then. Actually during pondering MoGo realized that it was lost then, because black played the expected move (B1), but the estimation was then 50%. MoGo realized too. Actually G1 is an interesting move. After white 48, all groups on the board is alive and white actually wins by my counting. So I think that white 50 is a losing move. Oh, so contrary to what I believed, you say (if I understand you correctly) that the mistake was done in the upper left group and not in the bottom center group? Thank you, Sylvain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
Azul Systems has released a compute appliance with 768 cores and 768 gigabytes of RAM, happily driving your Java applications faster than ever before: http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mailp=graduation+giftscs=bz___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
Wow, 48-cores in a second-generation chip. The future is not far now. On 6/15/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Azul Systems has released a compute appliance with 768 cores and 768 gigabytes of RAM, happily driving your Java applications faster than ever before: http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
The Vega chip is custom-designed to run a Java Virtual Machine. Not at all useful to the rest of us who prefer other languages. IIRC, the machine has a single memory image. Of course, 600+ gigabytes of RAM is not cheap, but if we can get an oil sheikh to sponsor a project, who knows? The systems appear to be very energy efficient also. They run at slower memory speeds, depending more upon the massive parallelism of 48 cores per chip than raw clock speed. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster - Original Message From: Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:03:46 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: Interesting machine, but something about it seems odd. First it says it's tuned for Java. Does that mean you can't use non-java on it? Run Linux? Or is it a glorified cluster of chips like the old hardware chips Sun made a decade ago for their defunct Java Station? What are the specs of the actual cores? Shared memory or does each core have it's own? There are more things to take into consideration than just cores. I've seen several posts like this in the past, and it makes me wonder if cores is the new mhz craze. But for people using Java, this might be a killer system, so *shrug* to each their own :) -Josh On 6/15/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Azul Systems has released a compute appliance with 768 cores and 768 gigabytes of RAM, happily driving your Java applications faster than ever before: http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
hey, you guys are right, java really is as fast as C now. s. - Original Message From: terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:17:11 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: The Vega chip is custom-designed to run a Java Virtual Machine. Not at all useful to the rest of us who prefer other languages. IIRC, the machine has a single memory image. Of course, 600+ gigabytes of RAM is not cheap, but if we can get an oil sheikh to sponsor a project, who knows? The systems appear to be very energy efficient also. They run at slower memory speeds, depending more upon the massive parallelism of 48 cores per chip than raw clock speed. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster - Original Message From: Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:03:46 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: Interesting machine, but something about it seems odd. First it says it's tuned for Java. Does that mean you can't use non-java on it? Run Linux? Or is it a glorified cluster of chips like the old hardware chips Sun made a decade ago for their defunct Java Station? What are the specs of the actual cores? Shared memory or does each core have it's own? There are more things to take into consideration than just cores. I've seen several posts like this in the past, and it makes me wonder if cores is the new mhz craze. But for people using Java, this might be a killer system, so *shrug* to each their own :) -Josh On 6/15/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Azul Systems has released a compute appliance with 768 cores and 768 gigabytes of RAM, happily driving your Java applications faster than ever before: http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545469___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
OO is slower than non-OO. it's just easier for a lot of people to write. s. - Original Message From: Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:27:28 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: I'm not a java advocate, but I thought the whole java speed war ended when JIT came out? Granted there is some overhead during the initial start, but once it's running it would be the same speed since, in essence it IS running native code at that point. -Josh On 6/15/07, steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey, you guys are right, java really is as fast as C now. s. - Original Message From: terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:17:11 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: The Vega chip is custom-designed to run a Java Virtual Machine. Not at all useful to the rest of us who prefer other languages. IIRC, the machine has a single memory image. Of course, 600+ gigabytes of RAM is not cheap, but if we can get an oil sheikh to sponsor a project, who knows? The systems appear to be very energy efficient also. They run at slower memory speeds, depending more upon the massive parallelism of 48 cores per chip than raw clock speed. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster - Original Message From: Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:03:46 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: Interesting machine, but something about it seems odd. First it says it's tuned for Java. Does that mean you can't use non-java on it? Run Linux? Or is it a glorified cluster of chips like the old hardware chips Sun made a decade ago for their defunct Java Station? What are the specs of the actual cores? Shared memory or does each core have it's own? There are more things to take into consideration than just cores. I've seen several posts like this in the past, and it makes me wonder if cores is the new mhz craze. But for people using Java, this might be a killer system, so *shrug* to each their own :) -Josh On 6/15/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Azul Systems has released a compute appliance with 768 cores and 768 gigabytes of RAM, happily driving your Java applications faster than ever before: http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
I am not a Java expert, so some of what I say here might be wrong/outdated. I don't think JIT can make Java as fast as C/C++. There are still things Java does in ways that cannot be fast. For instance, you can't construct objects on the stack, so you need to use the heap for everything. Also, passing everything by pointer (as I think Java does under the hood) requires many dereferences that can end up being expensive. Then you have the garbage collector, which will run at poorly specified times, making your program slower perhaps when you most need speed. In general, there is more abstraction from the way the hardware works, and that almost inevitably costs you in performance. C++ manages to abstract many things while staying fast, but then you pay the cost in complexity. C keeps you quite close to the machine, but it's so simple that common tasks (like string manipulation) are really hard to implement. It's all a matter of balance. My personal preference at this point is C++ without going overboard with the more difficult aspects of the language, like template meta-programming. But I can understand why people make other choices. Álvaro. On 6/15/07, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not a java advocate, but I thought the whole java speed war ended when JIT came out? Granted there is some overhead during the initial start, but once it's running it would be the same speed since, in essence it IS running native code at that point. -Josh On 6/15/07, steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey, you guys are right, java really is as fast as C now. s. - Original Message From: terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:17:11 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: The Vega chip is custom-designed to run a Java Virtual Machine. Not at all useful to the rest of us who prefer other languages. IIRC, the machine has a single memory image. Of course, 600+ gigabytes of RAM is not cheap, but if we can get an oil sheikh to sponsor a project, who knows? The systems appear to be very energy efficient also. They run at slower memory speeds, depending more upon the massive parallelism of 48 cores per chip than raw clock speed. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster - Original Message From: Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:03:46 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: Interesting machine, but something about it seems odd. First it says it's tuned for Java. Does that mean you can't use non-java on it? Run Linux? Or is it a glorified cluster of chips like the old hardware chips Sun made a decade ago for their defunct Java Station? What are the specs of the actual cores? Shared memory or does each core have it's own? There are more things to take into consideration than just cores. I've seen several posts like this in the past, and it makes me wonder if cores is the new mhz craze. But for people using Java, this might be a killer system, so *shrug* to each their own :) -Josh On 6/15/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Azul Systems has released a compute appliance with 768 cores and 768 gigabytes of RAM, happily driving your Java applications faster than ever before: http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
If there is a platform for Java, does that mean it wasn't ever actually platform independent? For you academia's out there prove it! -Robin On 6/15/07, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not a java advocate, but I thought the whole java speed war ended when JIT came out? Granted there is some overhead during the initial start, but once it's running it would be the same speed since, in essence it IS running native code at that point. -Josh On 6/15/07, steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey, you guys are right, java really is as fast as C now. s. - Original Message From: terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:17:11 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: The Vega chip is custom-designed to run a Java Virtual Machine. Not at all useful to the rest of us who prefer other languages. IIRC, the machine has a single memory image. Of course, 600+ gigabytes of RAM is not cheap, but if we can get an oil sheikh to sponsor a project, who knows? The systems appear to be very energy efficient also. They run at slower memory speeds, depending more upon the massive parallelism of 48 cores per chip than raw clock speed. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster - Original Message From: Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:03:46 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: Interesting machine, but something about it seems odd. First it says it's tuned for Java. Does that mean you can't use non-java on it? Run Linux? Or is it a glorified cluster of chips like the old hardware chips Sun made a decade ago for their defunct Java Station? What are the specs of the actual cores? Shared memory or does each core have it's own? There are more things to take into consideration than just cores. I've seen several posts like this in the past, and it makes me wonder if cores is the new mhz craze. But for people using Java, this might be a killer system, so *shrug* to each their own :) -Josh On 6/15/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Azul Systems has released a compute appliance with 768 cores and 768 gigabytes of RAM, happily driving your Java applications faster than ever before: http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
The JIT compiler can optimize away a lot of these things. For those of you who like empirical data: http://kano.net/javabench/ http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html Plenty of data can be mustered for either side of this question, but the assumption that Java is necessarily, inherently slower than C/C++ is outdated. Peter Drake http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ On Jun 15, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Álvaro Begué wrote: I am not a Java expert, so some of what I say here might be wrong/outdated. I don't think JIT can make Java as fast as C/C++. There are still things Java does in ways that cannot be fast. For instance, you can't construct objects on the stack, so you need to use the heap for everything. Also, passing everything by pointer (as I think Java does under the hood) requires many dereferences that can end up being expensive. Then you have the garbage collector, which will run at poorly specified times, making your program slower perhaps when you most need speed. In general, there is more abstraction from the way the hardware works, and that almost inevitably costs you in performance. C++ manages to abstract many things while staying fast, but then you pay the cost in complexity. C keeps you quite close to the machine, but it's so simple that common tasks (like string manipulation) are really hard to implement. It's all a matter of balance. My personal preference at this point is C++ without going overboard with the more difficult aspects of the language, like template meta-programming. But I can understand why people make other choices. Álvaro. On 6/15/07, Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not a java advocate, but I thought the whole java speed war ended when JIT came out? Granted there is some overhead during the initial start, but once it's running it would be the same speed since, in essence it IS running native code at that point. -Josh On 6/15/07, steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey, you guys are right, java really is as fast as C now. s. - Original Message From: terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:17:11 PM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: The Vega chip is custom-designed to run a Java Virtual Machine. Not at all useful to the rest of us who prefer other languages. IIRC, the machine has a single memory image. Of course, 600+ gigabytes of RAM is not cheap, but if we can get an oil sheikh to sponsor a project, who knows? The systems appear to be very energy efficient also. They run at slower memory speeds, depending more upon the massive parallelism of 48 cores per chip than raw clock speed. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster - Original Message From: Joshua Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:03:46 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this: Interesting machine, but something about it seems odd. First it says it's tuned for Java. Does that mean you can't use non-java on it? Run Linux? Or is it a glorified cluster of chips like the old hardware chips Sun made a decade ago for their defunct Java Station? What are the specs of the actual cores? Shared memory or does each core have it's own? There are more things to take into consideration than just cores. I've seen several posts like this in the past, and it makes me wonder if cores is the new mhz craze. But for people using Java, this might be a killer system, so *shrug* to each their own :) -Josh On 6/15/07, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Azul Systems has released a compute appliance with 768 cores and 768 gigabytes of RAM, happily driving your Java applications faster than ever before: http://www.azulsystems.com/products/compute_appliance.htm Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
Regarding the garbage collector, Azul Systems' big selling point is that their hardware-assisted garbage collection consumes vastly less time and is much more predictable. - Original Message From: Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] Then you have the garbage collector, which will run at poorly specified times, making your program slower perhaps when you most need speed. 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
On 6/15/07, Phil G [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JIT didn't solve everything - the managed memory management in Java (and C#) has overheard which JIT can not always optimized away, for example. The D programming language website argues in favor of garbage collection... Even claiming that it could be faster than manual memory allocation/deallocation. http://www.digitalmars.com/d/garbage.html venting I'm not yet sold on all the ideas... especially since D's GC crashes when using the port to gcc. Arguments like you don't have to debug memory management code (like on the website) are nice points, but it's far more frustrating when the standard GC doesn't work. /venting ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 14:45 -0400, Jason House wrote: On 6/15/07, Phil G [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JIT didn't solve everything - the managed memory management in Java (and C#) has overheard which JIT can not always optimized away, for example. The D programming language website argues in favor of garbage collection... Even claiming that it could be faster than manual memory allocation/deallocation. http://www.digitalmars.com/d/garbage.html This is an age old argument applied to many things. The same argument in another context: C programs can be faster than assembly language programs. These arguments are based on the assumption that the human can't do as well as the computer for certain tasks. A custom designed memory manager by a person who knows what he is doing will be faster than an automatic generalized algorithm and assembler code written by a human who actually knows what he is doing will always be faster than C code written by a compiler. Of course the big variable here is how many programmers have the expertise to out-code the compiler. These statements are probably mostly true for most people and most programs. There is an argument that JIT could even outperform statically compiled code because it might be able to take advantage of dynamic information learned on the fly. There is also the object oriented issue. This is a small performance drag. This is not a natural thing to the computer hardware even if people like it. There really is no such thing as a fair benchmark. To me it comes down to how much effort to write a fast program and I think it's really difficult in Java if you want the code to remain beautiful. In C code isn't supposed to look beautiful :-) I think Java approaches the speed of C only in a few benchmarks. I think if you had a competition by super-experts in any language to write a very specific program, you would find that the Java program couldn't approach the C program in speed. For instance I would like someone to take Lukasz Lew's code base and come close to it's performance in Java. I would be really surprised if you could get half the speed in this case. - Don venting I'm not yet sold on all the ideas... especially since D's GC crashes when using the port to gcc. Arguments like you don't have to debug memory management code (like on the website) are nice points, but it's far more frustrating when the standard GC doesn't work. /venting ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
On 6/15/07, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think D keeps improving. The gcc version is slower anyway, so I haven't bothered with it but my understanding is that they have made a lot of optimizations since we last discussed the performance of D on this group. Of course I haven't tested it out in a while. I would use D exclusively for performance programming if it could get pretty close to C in speed. In principle the author of D claims it's has more potential than C does for optimizations. Are you using D now? Yes, I'm using D now. On a 1.7 GHz machine, I get 73 kpps, which I think is reasonable for my non-optimized code. The new bot, written in D, would have debuted at the last KGS tournament if I hadn't hit that GC issue. 3 weeks later, I understand the problem and have enough of a bandaid that my development machine doesn't crash in less than a second of thinking. dmd does not support 64 bit or macs. I develop on a 64 bit machine, and another developer uses a mac, so use of gdc would be ideal. For the next tournament tournament, I'll compile and run my bot with dmd, but it'll run on inferior hardware. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] mogobot against 5 dan pro on kgs
Hi everybody Guojuan (5p) has played some games agaisnt mogobot on kgs. Worth to look at, and mogobot 3.0 won some on 9x9 Congrats to mogobot team, and thanks to Guo Juan for the games :) Alain ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
I think Java approaches the speed of C only in a few benchmarks. I think if you had a competition by super-experts in any language to write a very specific program, you would find that the Java program couldn't approach the C program in speed. For instance I would like someone to take Lukasz Lew's code base and come close to it's performance in Java. I would be really surprised if you could get half the speed in this case. I couldn't agree more with what you say here. If any of you really think that Java can be as fast as C or C++, then prove it. I have yet to be even moderately convinced. I wouldn't mind seeing it. I would still probably use C++ for most of my own work because I prefer its rich feature set, but it could save me some time when I am able to subcontract out part of a performance critical job to a dime-a-dozen java programmer. On 6/15/07, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think D keeps improving. The gcc version is slower anyway, so I haven't bothered with it but my understanding is that they have made a lot of optimizations since we last discussed the performance of D on this group. Of course I haven't tested it out in a while. I would use D exclusively for performance programming if it could get pretty close to C in speed. In principle the author of D claims it's has more potential than C does for optimizations. Are you using D now? - Don On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 14:45 -0400, Jason House wrote: On 6/15/07, Phil G [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JIT didn't solve everything - the managed memory management in Java (and C#) has overheard which JIT can not always optimized away, for example. The D programming language website argues in favor of garbage collection... Even claiming that it could be faster than manual memory allocation/deallocation. http://www.digitalmars.com/d/garbage.html venting I'm not yet sold on all the ideas... especially since D's GC crashes when using the port to gcc. Arguments like you don't have to debug memory management code (like on the website) are nice points, but it's far more frustrating when the standard GC doesn't work. /venting ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
What are the specs of the actual cores? Shared memory or does each core have it's own? Its a SMP machine. (share memory with same access speed for every core) There are more things to take into consideration than just cores. I've seen several posts like this in the past, and it makes me wonder if cores is the new mhz craze. Definitely. The future is parallel. Cheers Eduardo __ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
Gah! no destructor gotta love that one if you are trying to write threaded API's. OK my proof goes like this. Not all operating systems are the same, and you can access things in the operating system using Java, breaking encapsulation, and making that code non-independent. Furthermore, Java has no concept of defines, that allow a programmer to compile java for different platforms, so the very idea that one does not have to think about the platform is preventing java programmers from acutually making their programs portable to different platforms. So if there was any language which allows a programmer to port their code to be compileable and executable on a wide variety of systems it is C. Use wine already :p -Robin On 6/15/07, Eduardo Sabbatella [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Java is the platform. so far, so good, Java is THE OS abstraction layer. We have to admit the Java people have done it well. You can't get anything better in platform independient. A lot of interpreted languages (Python, Perl, etc.) don't have platform 100% independient libraries... Some libraries works on Linux, others on mac, others on windows... etc... On java, libraries are similar wherever your program is running... I'm not saying its perfect, I'm saying is the best platform standarisation so far so good. ( I promise you I'm not a Java addict, actually I hate a lot of things in Java ) --- Robin Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: If there is a platform for Java, does that mean it wasn't ever actually platform independent? For you academia's out there prove it! __ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Java hounds salivate over this:
Now that takes me back to days of your. Can we run TECO on a PDP-10 emulator? Early versions of EMACS were actually written on top of TECO -- how's that for layers upon layers of emulation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector - Original Message From: Dave Dyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can run my old PDP10 system in a window on my PC (and incidentally, MUCH faster than it ever ran on real hardware) Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail QA for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396546091___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] results of computer olympiad 9x9
On 6/14/07, Magnus Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Congratulations to Steenvreeter! Thx In the second game against CrazyStone it played like a weak MC-program in the opening - playing all moves in the center and allowing Crazystone as white to make two rock solid groups which in my experience should be an easy win for white. It's funny, Remi made a very similar remark during that game... My impression is that the beginning and early middle game are the weakest phase for my program. In several games against the stronger opponents it got rather depressed, but then managed to fight back towards the end of the game. The hardest games were on the first day; Steenvreter still had a severe bug, which I found thanks to the loss against Go Intellect, and some parameters were tuned incorrectly. I was lucky that GoKing could not exploit the situation due to its poorly implemented time allocation. After fixing the bug and changing some parameters the next two days went much smoother. I think Steenvreter was successful because it was the strongest fighter in the tournament. However, to make it a really strong program I need to improve it's play in the early phase of the game. My impression is that Steenvreeter is a MC-program because it sometimes played moves that I find typical of MC-programs, but that it uses some very good tactics and LD reading in the playouts. It played very strong in all tactical situations as far as I could see in a quick overview. Or perhaps it is a hybrid of a strong tactics engine and MC. Just a guess. Good guess, Steenvreter uses UCT and has some LD knowledge that I reused from Magog. Will we see Steenvreeter on CGOS soon or has it already played there with a different name? So far, Steenvreter has never played on CGOS. I'm very busy with work, so it will take a while before I have time to put it up for some games. Also to be honest, I'm not really that interested. I guess CGOS is nice if you have no other way to evaluate the strength of your program, but I really like it much more to play in a tournament like the Computer Olympiad where I can meet other programmers face to face. Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Java hounds salivate over this:
The approach that C supports is chaos: deal with it. Is it an approach? or a mere fact of consecuences ? I mean, people started to build C compilers on every machine, thats all. The standard library is less standard than any other thing... C was one of the first mainstream languages, also was a good system programming language (to build OS, system tools, etc.) But C is just a programming language. Java languague 'per se' is 5% of the whole Java world (platforms, apis, virtual machines, specs, etc, etc, etc. and even more etc.) C lacks of all those things. Actually, In my opinion, Java as a language is a bit crappy, but you have the other 95% which is very important. Anyway, I think this is getting off topic. Edu __ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] results of computer olympiad 9x9
On 6/14/07, Sylvain Gelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Magnus, Congratulations to Steenvreeter. Thank you for your analysis. Did you looked at the first game Steenvreeter-MoGo (MoGo was white)? I wonder, because MoGo was really happy, estimation always increased, up to 81%, then in one move dropped to less 50%, and MoGo eventually lost. I wonder if MoGo did a blunder, or simply that it evaluated badly the position for some reason. In the second game, it increased exactly in the same way, but continued to increase to a win this time ;-). Cheers, Sylvain I did some analysis with Steenvreter. The game seems to be one of the most difficult from the tournament. It's hard to say for sure, but according to Steenvreter Mogo was ahead until move 50. If Mogo had played B8 instead of C9 it probably would have won the game. I think the main reason why Mogo lost is that it had already used too much time, and simply could not search deep enough to find the solution. Best, Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Java hounds salivate over this:
Oh, that's because I'm a lousy programmer. :-) Peter Drake http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ On Jun 15, 2007, at 4:03 PM, Darren Cook wrote: Plenty of data can be mustered for either side of this question, but the assumption that Java is necessarily, inherently slower than C/C++ is outdated. So why is libego many times faster (at doing random playouts) than orego on the same hardware? :-). I got the impression from you that you didn't have any optimizations left to try. Darren ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Re: Java hounds salivate over this:
At 03:12 PM 6/15/2007, steve uurtamo wrote: my last $0.02 on this -- let me know when you've written a kernel in java, and tell me how fast your operating system (written entirely in java) runs. I could point out that lisp machines had no other language at the core. The entire operating system (which had windows, networks, and virutal memory) was written in lisp. Even the garbage collector was written in lisp. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Re: Java hounds salivate over this:
On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 15:12 -0700, steve uurtamo wrote: my last $0.02 on this -- let me know when you've written a kernel in java, and tell me how fast your operating system (written entirely in java) runs. what? that can't be done? :) Well, in fact that can be done... :-) http://www.jnode.org/ Hellwig ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
