[computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
Wasn't it today that Crazystone had a match against a professional player? During the FIT2008 conference at Keio University? Does anyone know the result and if the game is available somewhere? Jonas ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wasn't it today that Crazystone had a match against a professional player? During the FIT2008 conference at Keio University? Does anyone know the result and if the game is available somewhere? Jonas ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Crazy Stone won, with a 8-stone handicap. It was running on an 8-core PC. The game record is attached. I will set up a web page with more details soon. Rémi FIT2008_aoba_kaori_VS_CS.sgf Description: application/go-sgf ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
Congratulations! I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? Did the game end on time or by resignation at move 179? The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes? Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know. -Jie Li, 9 dan - Original Message From: Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 3:56:05 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wasn't it today that Crazystone had a match against a professional player? During the FIT2008 conference at Keio University? Does anyone know the result and if the game is available somewhere? Jonas ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Crazy Stone won, with a 8-stone handicap. It was running on an 8-core PC. The game record is attached. I will set up a web page with more details soon. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
terry mcintyre wrote: Congratulations! Thanks. I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? The organizers asked that the program should play at a constant time (30 second) per move. The sgf file contains time stamps (you can see the time with gogui, for instance). I don't know what was her time control, but she apparently played at the same pace as the program. Did the game end on time or by resignation at move 179? She resigned. The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes? Yes. The only other information I have about the match are these pages in Japanese: https://secure1.gakkai-web.net/gakkai/fit/program/html/event/event.html#6 http://www.ipsj.or.jp/10jigyo/fit/fit2008/events.html#1-4-1 I hope the organizers can send me some photos tomorrow. Then I will set up a web page and tell the list. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
Congratulations, Remi! I just returned from FIT2008. This was first official professional vs. computer game in Japan. I added some comments in sgf. These game comments are stated by O Meien professional 9dan. Aoba 4dan's comment after game. My guess was soft was strong, but something is different. I think I played well partially, upper left and right side. I think it is even game when I get one stone on bottom. Crazy Stone played yose correctly, amateur 5dan level. Tei Meikou pro 9dan said, Crazy Stone is much stronger than last year's UEC cup. After this game, O Meien 9dan played with Crazy Stone on 9x9. Komi was 0.5 and Meien 9dan played White. Crazy Stone won. This was very exciting game. I put some photos. http://www.yss-aya.com/photo/20080904fit/index01.html FIT2008 Computer Go Frontier (in Japanese) https://secure1.gakkai-web.net/gakkai/fit/program/html/event/event.html#6 Aoba Kaori 4dan http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki000343.htm O Meien 9dan http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki66.htm (;FF[3]GM[1]SZ[19]HA[8] PB[Crazy Stone] PW[Aoba Kaori] DT[2008-09-04] RE[B+R] KM[0.5] RU[Japanese]PC[Keio University, Shonan-Fujisawa, Kanagawa Japan]EV[FIT2008] AB[dd][jd][pd][dj][pj][dp][jp][pp] ;W[dm];B[gk];W[gp];B[gn];W[eo];B[ep];W[fo];B[jn];W[dg];B[fg] ;W[cd];B[cc];W[de];B[ce];W[bd];B[ee];W[df];B[ec];W[bc];B[nd] ;W[qn];B[on];W[om];B[nm];W[ol];B[nl];W[ok];B[mi];W[nk];B[mk] ;W[nn];B[pn];W[mj];B[lj];W[ml];B[nj];W[mm]C[Tortoise shell is worth 60 points. Pon-nuki is worth 30 points. So white gets 30 points.] ;B[np];W[oj];B[oi];W[pi]C[I like M-9.] ;B[ph];W[qi];B[qm];W[oh];B[ni] C[They say Crazy Stone resign 20% winning rate. It's a good loser. I never resign even if 0%.] ;W[pg]C[dreamy move. But black still leads 30 points.] ;B[qj];W[qh]C[Black should play R-8. Q10 is pivotal stones. ] ;B[ng]C[White can lay waste to the upper side. Black can not keep all. ] ;W[ql];B[qo];W[fd];B[fe];W[ed];B[dc];W[fc]C[Black B-18, white A-18 is difficult.] ;B[hd]C[Black could live at least. It looks finally even.] ;W[eb]C[Will white lose totally? I can't imagine :-)] ;B[bo];W[do];B[cp];W[fq];B[cl];W[dr];B[cm];W[iq];B[jq];W[jr] ;B[kr];W[ir];B[rl];W[qk];B[kl];W[ge];B[hg]C[Maybe white's next move is 33(R-17).] ;W[qc];B[qd];W[pb];B[pc];W[rb];B[rc];W[qb];B[cr];W[lr];B[rk]C[It is appreciate. White can play S-6 now.] ;W[rj];B[gf];W[nb];B[nc]C[About 100 moves is left. Black will lose 20 points after this.] ;W[mb];B[lc]C[L-3 is solid.] ;W[kq]C[White can win. But it is really difficult now.] ;B[er]C[Even O-2 is full stomach.] ;W[rn]C[Next move will R-3. I like O-2.] ;B[rm];W[qq];B[ro];W[or];B[nr];W[pr];B[gd];W[gb];B[gc];W[fb] ;B[kp];W[lq];B[oq];W[rr]C[Black G-2 is strong. Still difficult game.] ;B[ch];W[dh];B[di];W[eh]C[It looks close game. But I guess white will win.] ;B[bg];W[gi];B[hi];W[jm];B[km];W[hh];B[gh];W[hj];B[ih];W[gj] ;B[fi];W[fj];B[ij]C[Black stops here. Ha-ha-ha.] ;W[hk]C[Now white can connect.] ;B[dl];W[ik];B[jk];W[jj];B[ii];W[mc]C[I like L-17 tuke.] ;B[md];W[kc];B[ld];W[lb];B[be];W[cg];B[bh];W[kd];B[ke];W[jc] ;B[ic]C[White will lose on territory if nothing is done.] ;W[je];B[id];W[hm];B[fk];W[in]C[To win, white must kill O-13 and so on. It is not dream.] ;B[jl];W[fm]C[White should play J-7.] ;B[im];W[hn];B[ob]C[Black gives a point after a long time.] ;W[oa];B[hl];W[ei];B[ej];W[fh]C[It looks a bit bad. White is not enough, she needs speculative play.] ;B[ib];W[rd]C[If black gets 3 moku, it is over. R-15 cut is small.] ;B[re];W[sc];B[kb];W[nh];B[mh];W[nf];B[og];W[qe];B[pf];W[qf] ;B[il];W[fi];B[sj];W[ri];B[ph];W[oh];B[gm]) This 9x9 game record is maybe not correct. I inputed manually. (; GM[1]SZ[9] PB[Crazy Stone] PW[O Meien] DT[2008-09-04] RE[W+3.5] KM[0.5]TM[600]RU[Japanese] ;B[ee];W[eg];B[ec];W[ge];B[df];W[dg];B[cg];W[cf];B[ce];W[bf] ;B[ch];W[be];B[ff];W[fg];B[gf];W[gg];B[cc];W[bd];B[hg];W[hh] ;B[hf];W[ef];B[de];W[fe];B[ih];W[he];B[gh];W[hi];B[gi];W[if] ;B[ii];W[hh];B[hi];W[ie];B[dh];W[ig];B[eh];W[hh];B[bc];W[bg] ;B[bh];W[fb];B[fc];W[gc];B[eb];W[fh];B[gb];W[hb];B[fa];W[ei] ;B[ah];W[di];B[cd];W[ci];B[ad];W[bi];B[ae];W[ha];B[hc];W[gd] ;B[ib];W[hd];B[ga];W[ic];B[af];W[fd];B[ed];W[fi];B[ag];W[ai] ) Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
It's difficult for me to understand this due to different ranking systems and pro ratings vs amateur ratings. I see here listed as a 4 dan player on this page: http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki000343.htm Is that 4 dan pro? My understanding is something like this: kyu player are casual players (or weak tournament players) low dan players are something like advanced amateurs or experts and weak masters in chess. Pro's are like super high dan players and there is not very much difference between ranks compared to regular dan players. I have heard that a 1d professional will beat a 9d professional with 3 or 4 stones. So a 1d pro is something like a 7 or 8d+ amateur? Is this all roughly correct? So I assume that Aoba Kaori is a 4d professional? That would relate to something in the ballpark of 9 or 10d amateur if there were such a thing. And with 8 stones handicap, this implies that CrazyStone did what a 2d+ would have done, or it is weaker than 2d but got lucky. So it's performance rating for that one game is lower bounded at around 1 or 2 dan. Since it won the game we could pick 2 dan as a better lower bound guess although since it won we do not have a reasonable upper bound guess on it's performance except our own credulity. Does what I said make any sense? I am not a go player and I'm not very comfortable with this guesswork. In chess, if you beat a player I am used to thinking in terms of setting a performance rating of around 400 ELO higher for that one game. I know this is not precise, but I also think of 400 ELO subtracted from the player you beat as a kind of estimated lower bound on your strength. If you beat a 2500 ELO chess player, it's a relatively safe bet that you are at least 2100 ELO in strength although technically there is a chance you could lose to anybody, even a random move generator. I know this isn't precise language, but how many ranks would give us around 90 - 95% confidence of superiority?If I beat a 5 dan player, could you say that it's very likely I am at least 3 dan in strength? I'm thinking that if we estimate Aoba at 10d amateur and CrazyStone wins with 8 stone handicap, it is roughly equivalent to beating a 2d player without handicap and that we can subtract 2 stones to say that with pretty high confidence CrazyStone is playing at least 1 kyu (but that's it's much more likely Crazy Stone is stronger than this - after all it performed in this one game at least as well as 2d player.) - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 16:28 +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: terry mcintyre wrote: Congratulations! Thanks. I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? The organizers asked that the program should play at a constant time (30 second) per move. The sgf file contains time stamps (you can see the time with gogui, for instance). I don't know what was her time control, but she apparently played at the same pace as the program. Did the game end on time or by resignation at move 179? She resigned. The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes? Yes. The only other information I have about the match are these pages in Japanese: https://secure1.gakkai-web.net/gakkai/fit/program/html/event/event.html#6 http://www.ipsj.or.jp/10jigyo/fit/fit2008/events.html#1-4-1 I hope the organizers can send me some photos tomorrow. Then I will set up a web page and tell the list. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
I meant to add that we cannot calculate an upper bound on it's strength since there was only 1 game and it was a win. What I'm trying to determine is if we can say with a high degree of confidence yet that computers have achieved the 1 dan level? This has been kind of a holy grail of computer go in my opinion - even if it wasn't directly articulated (or perhaps it was?) - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:38 -0400, Don Dailey wrote: It's difficult for me to understand this due to different ranking systems and pro ratings vs amateur ratings. I see here listed as a 4 dan player on this page: http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki000343.htm Is that 4 dan pro? My understanding is something like this: kyu player are casual players (or weak tournament players) low dan players are something like advanced amateurs or experts and weak masters in chess. Pro's are like super high dan players and there is not very much difference between ranks compared to regular dan players. I have heard that a 1d professional will beat a 9d professional with 3 or 4 stones. So a 1d pro is something like a 7 or 8d+ amateur? Is this all roughly correct? So I assume that Aoba Kaori is a 4d professional? That would relate to something in the ballpark of 9 or 10d amateur if there were such a thing. And with 8 stones handicap, this implies that CrazyStone did what a 2d+ would have done, or it is weaker than 2d but got lucky. So it's performance rating for that one game is lower bounded at around 1 or 2 dan. Since it won the game we could pick 2 dan as a better lower bound guess although since it won we do not have a reasonable upper bound guess on it's performance except our own credulity. Does what I said make any sense? I am not a go player and I'm not very comfortable with this guesswork. In chess, if you beat a player I am used to thinking in terms of setting a performance rating of around 400 ELO higher for that one game. I know this is not precise, but I also think of 400 ELO subtracted from the player you beat as a kind of estimated lower bound on your strength. If you beat a 2500 ELO chess player, it's a relatively safe bet that you are at least 2100 ELO in strength although technically there is a chance you could lose to anybody, even a random move generator. I know this isn't precise language, but how many ranks would give us around 90 - 95% confidence of superiority?If I beat a 5 dan player, could you say that it's very likely I am at least 3 dan in strength? I'm thinking that if we estimate Aoba at 10d amateur and CrazyStone wins with 8 stone handicap, it is roughly equivalent to beating a 2d player without handicap and that we can subtract 2 stones to say that with pretty high confidence CrazyStone is playing at least 1 kyu (but that's it's much more likely Crazy Stone is stronger than this - after all it performed in this one game at least as well as 2d player.) - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 16:28 +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: terry mcintyre wrote: Congratulations! Thanks. I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? The organizers asked that the program should play at a constant time (30 second) per move. The sgf file contains time stamps (you can see the time with gogui, for instance). I don't know what was her time control, but she apparently played at the same pace as the program. Did the game end on time or by resignation at move 179? She resigned. The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes? Yes. The only other information I have about the match are these pages in Japanese: https://secure1.gakkai-web.net/gakkai/fit/program/html/event/event.html#6 http://www.ipsj.or.jp/10jigyo/fit/fit2008/events.html#1-4-1 I hope the organizers can send me some photos tomorrow. Then I will set up a web page and tell the list. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
I'm excited to see a computer reach 1d as well. For me I'm waiting to see a bot hold a 1d rating consistently on kgs. Right now CrazyStone has been rated 1d briefly, but hasn't been able to maintain it. It's currently 1k. I put a small table of the progress of a few bot's ratings on kgs at http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSBotRatings I would like to see MogoTiTan play many rated games on KGS and see how it does there. Anyone have a few million dollars lying around to sponsor this? :) On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I meant to add that we cannot calculate an upper bound on it's strength since there was only 1 game and it was a win. What I'm trying to determine is if we can say with a high degree of confidence yet that computers have achieved the 1 dan level? This has been kind of a holy grail of computer go in my opinion - even if it wasn't directly articulated (or perhaps it was?) - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:38 -0400, Don Dailey wrote: It's difficult for me to understand this due to different ranking systems and pro ratings vs amateur ratings. I see here listed as a 4 dan player on this page: http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki000343.htm Is that 4 dan pro? My understanding is something like this: kyu player are casual players (or weak tournament players) low dan players are something like advanced amateurs or experts and weak masters in chess. Pro's are like super high dan players and there is not very much difference between ranks compared to regular dan players. I have heard that a 1d professional will beat a 9d professional with 3 or 4 stones. So a 1d pro is something like a 7 or 8d+ amateur? Is this all roughly correct? So I assume that Aoba Kaori is a 4d professional? That would relate to something in the ballpark of 9 or 10d amateur if there were such a thing. And with 8 stones handicap, this implies that CrazyStone did what a 2d+ would have done, or it is weaker than 2d but got lucky. So it's performance rating for that one game is lower bounded at around 1 or 2 dan. Since it won the game we could pick 2 dan as a better lower bound guess although since it won we do not have a reasonable upper bound guess on it's performance except our own credulity. Does what I said make any sense? I am not a go player and I'm not very comfortable with this guesswork. In chess, if you beat a player I am used to thinking in terms of setting a performance rating of around 400 ELO higher for that one game. I know this is not precise, but I also think of 400 ELO subtracted from the player you beat as a kind of estimated lower bound on your strength. If you beat a 2500 ELO chess player, it's a relatively safe bet that you are at least 2100 ELO in strength although technically there is a chance you could lose to anybody, even a random move generator. I know this isn't precise language, but how many ranks would give us around 90 - 95% confidence of superiority?If I beat a 5 dan player, could you say that it's very likely I am at least 3 dan in strength? I'm thinking that if we estimate Aoba at 10d amateur and CrazyStone wins with 8 stone handicap, it is roughly equivalent to beating a 2d player without handicap and that we can subtract 2 stones to say that with pretty high confidence CrazyStone is playing at least 1 kyu (but that's it's much more likely Crazy Stone is stronger than this - after all it performed in this one game at least as well as 2d player.) - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 16:28 +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: terry mcintyre wrote: Congratulations! Thanks. I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? The organizers asked that the program should play at a constant time (30 second) per move. The sgf file contains time stamps (you can see the time with gogui, for instance). I don't know what was her time control, but she apparently played at the same pace as the program. Did the game end on time or by resignation at move 179? She resigned. The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes? Yes. The only other information I have about the match are these pages in Japanese: https://secure1.gakkai-web.net/gakkai/fit/program/html/event/event.html#6 http://www.ipsj.or.jp/10jigyo/fit/fit2008/events.html#1-4-1 I hope the organizers can send me some photos tomorrow. Then I will set up a web page and tell the list. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
Don Dailey wrote: I'm thinking that if we estimate Aoba at 10d amateur and CrazyStone wins with 8 stone handicap, it is roughly equivalent to beating a 2d player without handicap and that we can subtract 2 stones to say that with pretty high confidence CrazyStone is playing at least 1 kyu (but that's it's much more likely Crazy Stone is stronger than this - after all it performed in this one game at least as well as 2d player.) Hi Don, Crazy Stone played a few games on KGS, and has a strong 1k rank there. When watching the games, I feel that its level is sometimes very high, sometimes very low. If there is a semeai on the board that the playouts evaluate wrongly, then its playing style is absolutely horrible (much lower than 1k). Otherwise, it plays very strong (stronger than 1k). Well, I am only 5k, so I cannot really tell. But when I see the horrors it plays in some games, I suppose it must play much stronger than 1k in some other games in order to get a rating of 1k. Look for instance at these two games: a win: http://files.gokgs.com/games/2008/8/23/CrazyStone-mandelbrot.sgf a loss: http://files.gokgs.com/games/2008/8/23/CrazyStone-beoren.sgf (with comments of the opponents at the end) I have the feeling that MoGo has the same problem. It seems to be typical. Against Kim Myung Wan, it was very clear. In the games it lost, there were big semeais on the board. And MoGo played horribly. In my opinion, this is what explains the apparent difference of level between the blitz and the slow game. Not the time control. Of course, this is just a guess. Maybe members of the MoGo team can confirm/infirm this. When the playouts evaluate a critical semeai the wrong way, then no supercomputer can help, even at long time control. Semeais require a better algorithm, because no computing power can search them out with a tree, and playouts have to be extremely intelligent in order to evaluate them correctly. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
Andy wrote: I'm excited to see a computer reach 1d as well. For me I'm waiting to see a bot hold a 1d rating consistently on kgs. Right now CrazyStone has been rated 1d briefly, but hasn't been able to maintain it. It's currently 1k. I put a small table of the progress of a few bot's ratings on kgs at http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSBotRatings I would like to see MogoTiTan play many rated games on KGS and see how it does there. Anyone have a few million dollars lying around to sponsor this? :) Leela is becoming strong. It has reached 1k now. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I meant to add that we cannot calculate an upper bound on it's strength since there was only 1 game and it was a win. What I'm trying to determine is if we can say with a high degree of confidence yet that computers have achieved the 1 dan level? This has been kind of a holy grail of computer go in my opinion - even if it wasn't directly articulated (or perhaps it was?) My understanding of the rating system: Amateur grades, from 20 kyu and below, up to amateur 6 dan, are one stone apart. Pro 1 dan is about equivalent to amateur 7 dan. Pro grades are about a third of a stone apart. This all varies a bit from country to country: for example a European amateur 3 dan is stronger than a Japanese amateur 3 dan. As for 1 dan being a kind of holy grail: The Ing prize, worth over US$1,000,000, was for beating inseis, that is trainee professionals, who would have a strength of around amateur 7 dan or maybe slightly below. So beating a [pro] 1-dan became a target. This has been misunderstood by some as amateur 1-dan. I believe that MoGo, running on enough processors, is now stronger than a European amateur 1 dan who has not played it before or who has not learned to handle its unusual style. I cannot guess how it would do in a nine-game match against a typical European amateur 1 dan. Nick - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:38 -0400, Don Dailey wrote: It's difficult for me to understand this due to different ranking systems and pro ratings vs amateur ratings. I see here listed as a 4 dan player on this page: http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki000343.htm Is that 4 dan pro? My understanding is something like this: kyu player are casual players (or weak tournament players) low dan players are something like advanced amateurs or experts and weak masters in chess. Pro's are like super high dan players and there is not very much difference between ranks compared to regular dan players. I have heard that a 1d professional will beat a 9d professional with 3 or 4 stones. So a 1d pro is something like a 7 or 8d+ amateur? Is this all roughly correct? So I assume that Aoba Kaori is a 4d professional? That would relate to something in the ballpark of 9 or 10d amateur if there were such a thing. And with 8 stones handicap, this implies that CrazyStone did what a 2d+ would have done, or it is weaker than 2d but got lucky. So it's performance rating for that one game is lower bounded at around 1 or 2 dan. Since it won the game we could pick 2 dan as a better lower bound guess although since it won we do not have a reasonable upper bound guess on it's performance except our own credulity. Does what I said make any sense? I am not a go player and I'm not very comfortable with this guesswork. In chess, if you beat a player I am used to thinking in terms of setting a performance rating of around 400 ELO higher for that one game. I know this is not precise, but I also think of 400 ELO subtracted from the player you beat as a kind of estimated lower bound on your strength. If you beat a 2500 ELO chess player, it's a relatively safe bet that you are at least 2100 ELO in strength although technically there is a chance you could lose to anybody, even a random move generator. I know this isn't precise language, but how many ranks would give us around 90 - 95% confidence of superiority?If I beat a 5 dan player, could you say that it's very likely I am at least 3 dan in strength? I'm thinking that if we estimate Aoba at 10d amateur and CrazyStone wins with 8 stone handicap, it is roughly equivalent to beating a 2d player without handicap and that we can subtract 2 stones to say that with pretty high confidence CrazyStone is playing at least 1 kyu (but that's it's much more likely Crazy Stone is stronger than this - after all it performed in this one game at least as well as 2d player.) - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 16:28 +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: terry mcintyre wrote: Congratulations! Thanks. I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? The organizers asked that the program should play at a constant time (30 second) per move. The sgf file contains time stamps (you can see the time with gogui, for instance). I don't know what was her time control, but she apparently played at the same pace as the program. Did the game end on time or by resignation at move 179? She resigned. The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes? Yes. The only other information I have about the match are these pages in Japanese: https://secure1.gakkai-web.net/gakkai/fit/program/html/event/event.html#6 http://www.ipsj.or.jp/10jigyo/fit/fit2008/events.html#1-4-1 I hope the organizers can send me some photos tomorrow. Then I will set up a web page and tell the list. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Andy wrote: I'm excited to see a computer reach 1d as well. For me I'm waiting to see a bot hold a 1d rating consistently on kgs. Right now CrazyStone has been rated 1d briefly, but hasn't been able to maintain it. It's currently 1k. I put a small table of the progress of a few bot's ratings on kgs at http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSBotRatings I would like to see MogoTiTan play many rated games on KGS and see how it does there. Anyone have a few million dollars lying around to sponsor this? :) Leela is becoming strong. It has reached 1k now. Rémi Thanks, I have updated http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSBotRatings - Andy ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Don Dailey wrote: I'm thinking that if we estimate Aoba at 10d amateur and CrazyStone wins with 8 stone handicap, it is roughly equivalent to beating a 2d player without handicap and that we can subtract 2 stones to say that with pretty high confidence CrazyStone is playing at least 1 kyu (but that's it's much more likely Crazy Stone is stronger than this - after all it performed in this one game at least as well as 2d player.) Hi Don, Crazy Stone played a few games on KGS, and has a strong 1k rank there. When watching the games, I feel that its level is sometimes very high, sometimes very low. If there is a semeai on the board that the playouts evaluate wrongly, then its playing style is absolutely horrible (much lower than 1k). Otherwise, it plays very strong (stronger than 1k). Well, I am only 5k, so I cannot really tell. But when I see the horrors it plays in some games, I suppose it must play much stronger than 1k in some other games in order to get a rating of 1k. Look for instance at these two games: a win: http://files.gokgs.com/games/2008/8/23/CrazyStone-mandelbrot.sgf When mandelbrot resigns, saying I was pwned, it appears to me that he is ahead. If he plays at q11 instead of resigning, I think he can kill Crazy Stone's s12 group - but it's difficult, and I'm not sure. Nick a loss: http://files.gokgs.com/games/2008/8/23/CrazyStone-beoren.sgf (with comments of the opponents at the end) I have the feeling that MoGo has the same problem. It seems to be typical. Against Kim Myung Wan, it was very clear. In the games it lost, there were big semeais on the board. And MoGo played horribly. In my opinion, this is what explains the apparent difference of level between the blitz and the slow game. Not the time control. Of course, this is just a guess. Maybe members of the MoGo team can confirm/infirm this. When the playouts evaluate a critical semeai the wrong way, then no supercomputer can help, even at long time control. Semeais require a better algorithm, because no computing power can search them out with a tree, and playouts have to be extremely intelligent in order to evaluate them correctly. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- Nick Wedd[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
Nick Wedd wrote: When mandelbrot resigns, saying I was pwned, it appears to me that he is ahead. If he plays at q11 instead of resigning, I think he can kill Crazy Stone's s12 group - but it's difficult, and I'm not sure. Bots are strong at psychological wins :-) Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
1d (amateur) is a kind of holy grail for amateurs, because it separates fairly serious players from people just messing around, so seeing a program at that level on a 19x19 board at reasonable (non-blitz) time controls is quite impressive. 1p is generally stronger than all but a small handful of amateurs, so can be thought of as =7d (amateur). beating a 1p in a zero-handicap game would be a really, really big deal for a computer player. $1M prize was well-considered, from that point of view. i think that the insurance value of such a proposition is still pretty low. s. On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's difficult for me to understand this due to different ranking systems and pro ratings vs amateur ratings. I see here listed as a 4 dan player on this page: http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki000343.htm Is that 4 dan pro? My understanding is something like this: kyu player are casual players (or weak tournament players) low dan players are something like advanced amateurs or experts and weak masters in chess. Pro's are like super high dan players and there is not very much difference between ranks compared to regular dan players. I have heard that a 1d professional will beat a 9d professional with 3 or 4 stones. So a 1d pro is something like a 7 or 8d+ amateur? Is this all roughly correct? So I assume that Aoba Kaori is a 4d professional? That would relate to something in the ballpark of 9 or 10d amateur if there were such a thing. And with 8 stones handicap, this implies that CrazyStone did what a 2d+ would have done, or it is weaker than 2d but got lucky. So it's performance rating for that one game is lower bounded at around 1 or 2 dan. Since it won the game we could pick 2 dan as a better lower bound guess although since it won we do not have a reasonable upper bound guess on it's performance except our own credulity. Does what I said make any sense? I am not a go player and I'm not very comfortable with this guesswork. In chess, if you beat a player I am used to thinking in terms of setting a performance rating of around 400 ELO higher for that one game. I know this is not precise, but I also think of 400 ELO subtracted from the player you beat as a kind of estimated lower bound on your strength. If you beat a 2500 ELO chess player, it's a relatively safe bet that you are at least 2100 ELO in strength although technically there is a chance you could lose to anybody, even a random move generator. I know this isn't precise language, but how many ranks would give us around 90 - 95% confidence of superiority?If I beat a 5 dan player, could you say that it's very likely I am at least 3 dan in strength? I'm thinking that if we estimate Aoba at 10d amateur and CrazyStone wins with 8 stone handicap, it is roughly equivalent to beating a 2d player without handicap and that we can subtract 2 stones to say that with pretty high confidence CrazyStone is playing at least 1 kyu (but that's it's much more likely Crazy Stone is stronger than this - after all it performed in this one game at least as well as 2d player.) - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 16:28 +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: terry mcintyre wrote: Congratulations! Thanks. I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? The organizers asked that the program should play at a constant time (30 second) per move. The sgf file contains time stamps (you can see the time with gogui, for instance). I don't know what was her time control, but she apparently played at the same pace as the program. Did the game end on time or by resignation at move 179? She resigned. The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes? Yes. The only other information I have about the match are these pages in Japanese: https://secure1.gakkai-web.net/gakkai/fit/program/html/event/event.html#6 http://www.ipsj.or.jp/10jigyo/fit/fit2008/events.html#1-4-1 I hope the organizers can send me some photos tomorrow. Then I will set up a web page and tell the list. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
[computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
I think for bot vs human, the time control should include byoyomi/overtime of some kind instead of sudden death. I'm afraid in one of these exhibition matches the human will be winning but lose on time. It would be especially bad if the bot was playing meaningless invasions or territory filling moves when the human loses. Is there a big reason not to use some overtime? It could be relatively quick, say 10s per move. Just to prevent losing a won game on time. Some people would argue the human should manage his time better, but people are much more used to playing with overtime, and accommodating this doesn't seem like a big deal. Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. Same thing for bots on KGS. - Andy ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
in fact, if you made a betting game out of it, and formed a pool that would go to anyone willing to take the challenge, i think that you'd find that the ratio of dollars against to dollars for would be a fairly accurate depiction of the strength increase over time. the ratio would likely lag behind the reality, but with money involved, people might tend to think more carefully about the situation. i think that people have set up such market indicators for all kinds of things just to see how accurately they predict reality. s. On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:38 PM, steve uurtamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1d (amateur) is a kind of holy grail for amateurs, because it separates fairly serious players from people just messing around, so seeing a program at that level on a 19x19 board at reasonable (non-blitz) time controls is quite impressive. 1p is generally stronger than all but a small handful of amateurs, so can be thought of as =7d (amateur). beating a 1p in a zero-handicap game would be a really, really big deal for a computer player. $1M prize was well-considered, from that point of view. i think that the insurance value of such a proposition is still pretty low. s. On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's difficult for me to understand this due to different ranking systems and pro ratings vs amateur ratings. I see here listed as a 4 dan player on this page: http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki000343.htm Is that 4 dan pro? My understanding is something like this: kyu player are casual players (or weak tournament players) low dan players are something like advanced amateurs or experts and weak masters in chess. Pro's are like super high dan players and there is not very much difference between ranks compared to regular dan players. I have heard that a 1d professional will beat a 9d professional with 3 or 4 stones. So a 1d pro is something like a 7 or 8d+ amateur? Is this all roughly correct? So I assume that Aoba Kaori is a 4d professional? That would relate to something in the ballpark of 9 or 10d amateur if there were such a thing. And with 8 stones handicap, this implies that CrazyStone did what a 2d+ would have done, or it is weaker than 2d but got lucky. So it's performance rating for that one game is lower bounded at around 1 or 2 dan. Since it won the game we could pick 2 dan as a better lower bound guess although since it won we do not have a reasonable upper bound guess on it's performance except our own credulity. Does what I said make any sense? I am not a go player and I'm not very comfortable with this guesswork. In chess, if you beat a player I am used to thinking in terms of setting a performance rating of around 400 ELO higher for that one game. I know this is not precise, but I also think of 400 ELO subtracted from the player you beat as a kind of estimated lower bound on your strength. If you beat a 2500 ELO chess player, it's a relatively safe bet that you are at least 2100 ELO in strength although technically there is a chance you could lose to anybody, even a random move generator. I know this isn't precise language, but how many ranks would give us around 90 - 95% confidence of superiority?If I beat a 5 dan player, could you say that it's very likely I am at least 3 dan in strength? I'm thinking that if we estimate Aoba at 10d amateur and CrazyStone wins with 8 stone handicap, it is roughly equivalent to beating a 2d player without handicap and that we can subtract 2 stones to say that with pretty high confidence CrazyStone is playing at least 1 kyu (but that's it's much more likely Crazy Stone is stronger than this - after all it performed in this one game at least as well as 2d player.) - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 16:28 +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: terry mcintyre wrote: Congratulations! Thanks. I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? The organizers asked that the program should play at a constant time (30 second) per move. The sgf file contains time stamps (you can see the time with gogui, for instance). I don't know what was her time control, but she apparently played at the same pace as the program. Did the game end on time or by resignation at move 179? She resigned. The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes? Yes. The only other information I have about the match are these pages in Japanese: https://secure1.gakkai-web.net/gakkai/fit/program/html/event/event.html#6 http://www.ipsj.or.jp/10jigyo/fit/fit2008/events.html#1-4-1 I hope the organizers can send me some photos tomorrow. Then I will set up a web page and tell the list. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Andy wrote: I think for bot vs human, the time control should include byoyomi/overtime of some kind instead of sudden death. I'm afraid in one of these exhibition matches the human will be winning but lose on time. It would be especially bad if the bot was playing meaningless invasions or territory filling moves when the human loses. This more or less happened in the Leela vs Xiao Ai Lin match. Is there a big reason not to use some overtime? It could be relatively quick, say 10s per move. Just to prevent losing a won game on time. Some people would argue the human should manage his time better, but people are much more used to playing with overtime, and accommodating this doesn't seem like a big deal. Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. Same thing for bots on KGS. As far as I understand, GTP only supports canadian byo-yomi which is not so popular. Leela should support it but I have never tried. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 17:09 +0100, Nick Wedd wrote: As for 1 dan being a kind of holy grail: The Ing prize, worth over US$1,000,000, was for beating inseis, that is trainee professionals, who would have a strength of around amateur 7 dan or maybe slightly below. So beating a [pro] 1-dan became a target. This has been misunderstood by some as amateur 1-dan. I never associated the Ing prize with this goal of achieving 1 dan. Probably any milestone easily expressed becomes a kind of holy grail but I cannot read peoples minds.In my own mind it seems to me that most guns have been aimed at getting out of the beginner kyu ranks. But of course, as I mentioned, most of this cannot be pinned down accurately. At any point in time, I imagine that most people are focused primarily on the next milestone.If we reach 1d amateur, surely the focus will shift to 1d professional, then beating the world champion, etc. - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Andy wrote: Just to prevent losing a won game on time. By the way, most bots on KGS resign lost games. So most people who lose on time are usually in a lost position themselves. There are exceptions with difficult LD situations, but really, I expect almost nothing to happen to the bots ratings when going to byo-yomi. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: Andy wrote: Same thing for bots on KGS. As far as I understand, GTP only supports canadian byo-yomi which is not so popular. Leela should support it but I have never tried. The problem is not GTP, but the KGS client. The time_left of kgsgtp does not give any indication of the number of byo-yomi periods left, if I remember correctly. Crazy Stone plays on KGS with a fast byo-yomi (5x10s). It does not use the byo-yomi. So Crazy Stone plays on KGS with a disadvantage. But I don't mind, and I find it is more friendly to human opponents. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
Rémi Coulom wrote: I would like to see MogoTiTan play many rated games on KGS and see how it does there. Anyone have a few million dollars lying around to sponsor this? :) Leela is becoming strong. It has reached 1k now. The gold medal in Beijing will not go to France without a fight! -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:40 -0500, Andy wrote: I think for bot vs human, the time control should include byoyomi/overtime of some kind instead of sudden death. I'm afraid in one of these exhibition matches the human will be winning but lose on time. It would be especially bad if the bot was playing meaningless invasions or territory filling moves when the human loses. I agree. For purposes of judging the strength of computers in man vs machine matches, there should be a standardized time control that is comfortable and match-like for humans.And it should be strictly enforced too. It really annoys me when rules are ignored based on judgment calls. I cannot imagine a tennis player being given the win after hitting a ball out because he out-played his opponent during the point and just happened to miss that least easy shot. I happen to feel that byoyomi is not very logical and that a Fischer type clock is superior but that's beside the point - byoyomi is still way better than sudden death. - Don Is there a big reason not to use some overtime? It could be relatively quick, say 10s per move. Just to prevent losing a won game on time. Some people would argue the human should manage his time better, but people are much more used to playing with overtime, and accommodating this doesn't seem like a big deal. Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. Same thing for bots on KGS. - Andy ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
Don Dailey: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It's difficult for me to understand this due to different ranking systems and pro ratings vs amateur ratings. I see here listed as a 4 dan player on this page: http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/htm/ki000343.htm Is that 4 dan pro? My understanding is something like this: kyu player are casual players (or weak tournament players) low dan players are something like advanced amateurs or experts and weak masters in chess. Pro's are like super high dan players and there is not very much difference between ranks compared to regular dan players. I have heard that a 1d professional will beat a 9d professional with 3 or 4 stones. So a 1d pro is something like a 7 or 8d+ amateur? Is this all roughly correct? I guess _yes_ but all the numbers are of Japanese rating, which is something different than KGS. Following is a (not authorized but many people agreed) mapping: KGS Japan (more exactly, East Japan) 1d 3d~4d 1k 2d~3d 2k 1d~2d I'm KGS 3k now and, perhaps, 1d at Tokyo. I won a game against a Japanese 9p once with 8 stones handicap at a teaching game last Nov but I won't be able to win against Kaori Inaba 4p at an open game with 8 stones. I'm pretty sure that Crazy Stone is stronger than I and is 1k or stronger because, as you wrote, it won the game. Hideki So I assume that Aoba Kaori is a 4d professional? That would relate to something in the ballpark of 9 or 10d amateur if there were such a thing. And with 8 stones handicap, this implies that CrazyStone did what a 2d+ would have done, or it is weaker than 2d but got lucky. So it's performance rating for that one game is lower bounded at around 1 or 2 dan. Since it won the game we could pick 2 dan as a better lower bound guess although since it won we do not have a reasonable upper bound guess on it's performance except our own credulity. Does what I said make any sense? I am not a go player and I'm not very comfortable with this guesswork. In chess, if you beat a player I am used to thinking in terms of setting a performance rating of around 400 ELO higher for that one game. I know this is not precise, but I also think of 400 ELO subtracted from the player you beat as a kind of estimated lower bound on your strength. If you beat a 2500 ELO chess player, it's a relatively safe bet that you are at least 2100 ELO in strength although technically there is a chance you could lose to anybody, even a random move generator. I know this isn't precise language, but how many ranks would give us around 90 - 95% confidence of superiority?If I beat a 5 dan player, could you say that it's very likely I am at least 3 dan in strength? I'm thinking that if we estimate Aoba at 10d amateur and CrazyStone wins with 8 stone handicap, it is roughly equivalent to beating a 2d player without handicap and that we can subtract 2 stones to say that with pretty high confidence CrazyStone is playing at least 1 kyu (but that's it's much more likely Crazy Stone is stronger than this - after all it performed in this one game at least as well as 2d player.) - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 16:28 +0200, Rémi Coulom wrote: terry mcintyre wrote: Congratulations! Thanks. I'm dying for details! What was the time limit? The organizers asked that the program should play at a constant time (30 second) per move. The sgf file contains time stamps (you can see the time with gogui, for instance). I don't know what was her time control, but she apparently played at the same pace as the program. Did the game end on time or by resignation at move 179? She resigned. The pro was Aoba Kaori, yes? Yes. The only other information I have about the match are these pages in Japanese: https://secure1.gakkai-web.net/gakkai/fit/program/html/event/event.html#6 http://www.ipsj.or.jp/10jigyo/fit/fit2008/events.html#1-4-1 I hope the organizers can send me some photos tomorrow. Then I will set up a web page and tell the list. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kato) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSRatingMath -- this table does include handicap stones in the calculations. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know. -Jie Li, 9 dan - Original Message From: terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 11:02:51 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone This page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_ranks_and_ratings gives a table of win probabilities versus rank differences. I haven't yet found such a table for handicap games. Terry McIntyre Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know. -Jie Li, 9 dan ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
In such a case, I think it's better for the human not to have a time control at all. This is more satisfying than having a human lose on time, but giving the win to him anyway under the assumption that he didn't really need all that time even though he used it. - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 19:49 +0200, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: Andy wrote: I think for bot vs human, the time control should include byoyomi/overtime of some kind instead of sudden death. I'm afraid in one of these exhibition matches the human will be winning but lose on time. It would be especially bad if the bot was playing meaningless invasions or territory filling moves when the human loses. This more or less happened in the Leela vs Xiao Ai Lin match. Is there a big reason not to use some overtime? It could be relatively quick, say 10s per move. Just to prevent losing a won game on time. Some people would argue the human should manage his time better, but people are much more used to playing with overtime, and accommodating this doesn't seem like a big deal. Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. Same thing for bots on KGS. As far as I understand, GTP only supports canadian byo-yomi which is not so popular. Leela should support it but I have never tried. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:40 -0500, Andy wrote: Even on CGOS there is a 1s Bronstein delay to prevent silly time loses due to lag. We need the same thing for humans except that for humans it needs to be a bit more than 1s. The gift is 0.75 seconds as it turns out. And I really hate the Bronstein clock compared to the Fischer, but it's not so bad if the delay is pretty small.For instance a 1 second delay in chess would easily cover the administrative cost of making a move, in other words the physical process time of moving the piece, punching your clock, etc. But a Fischer clock is way more logical in my opinion. You get the time increment added to your clock for each move and you don't get penalized for moving quickly like you do with Bronstein. - Don ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Don Dailey wrote: In such a case, I think it's better for the human not to have a time control at all. This is more satisfying than having a human lose on time, but giving the win to him anyway under the assumption that he didn't really need all that time even though he used it. I think the problem is that in this case the match can't possibly show anything. -- GCP ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
Here is something interesting from this page: Note how different the expectations of each system are regarding even games between players of unequal strength. If you can win 90% of even games against a 2 kyu player, the AGA believes you are 1.33 ranks higher, the EGF believes you are 2.42 ranks higher, and the IGS believes you are 2.80 ranks higher. The lack of agreement stems from a tradition of playing handicap games between players of different ranks, so there is a lack of data regarding non-handicap games between mismatched opponents. - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:02 -0700, terry mcintyre wrote: This page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_ranks_and_ratings gives a table of win probabilities versus rank differences. I haven't yet found such a table for handicap games. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know. -Jie Li, 9 dan ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Time controls in bots vs human matches
Sent from my iPhone On Sep 4, 2008, at 1:49 PM, Gian-Carlo Pascutto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I understand, GTP only supports canadian byo-yomi which is not so popular. Leela should support it but I have never tried. kgs-time_settings is much easier to interpret. KGS will send time_left 0 0 when you run out of main time. I don't remember what it does when you lose a byo yomi period. When in byo yomi, time_left will still have 0 for the 2nd parameter. HouseBot is coded to use only the first byo yomi period. Just like other monte-carlo bots, I don't recognize moves that require more think time, so I don't bother using all periods yet. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
I'm not surprised that the data for games with 90% winning chances is lacking. The McMahon pairing system is widely used in western go tournaments to prevent mismatched games, because most players don't like mismatched games (either as the stronger or the weaker player). Rating systems are relatively new in the go world and they don't seem very popular (or even known) in the far east where 99% of the go population lives. So I guess go rating systems are still quite immature: AGA, KGS and EGF all have different conversion functions to map winning probability to dan and kyu ranks. These conversions are probably based on different statistical data sources and probably also on other considerations like calculation convenience and different theoretical considerations of their inventors. Dave Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] namens Don Dailey Verzonden: do 4-9-2008 20:55 Aan: computer-go Onderwerp: Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone Here is something interesting from this page: Note how different the expectations of each system are regarding even games between players of unequal strength. If you can win 90% of even games against a 2 kyu player, the AGA believes you are 1.33 ranks higher, the EGF believes you are 2.42 ranks higher, and the IGS believes you are 2.80 ranks higher. The lack of agreement stems from a tradition of playing handicap games between players of different ranks, so there is a lack of data regarding non-handicap games between mismatched opponents. - Don On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:02 -0700, terry mcintyre wrote: This page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_ranks_and_ratings gives a table of win probabilities versus rank differences. I haven't yet found such a table for handicap games. Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Go is very hard. The more I learn about it, the less I know. -Jie Li, 9 dan ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] Kaori-Crazystone
2008/9/4 Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED]: only 5k, so I cannot really tell. But when I see the horrors it plays in some games, I suppose it must play much stronger than 1k in some other games in order to get a rating of 1k. Look for instance at these two games: a win: http://files.gokgs.com/games/2008/8/23/CrazyStone-mandelbrot.sgf a loss: http://files.gokgs.com/games/2008/8/23/CrazyStone-beoren.sgf (with comments of the opponents at the end) It also shows that some people lose just because they assume that they can outsmart the bot in any fight regardless how unfavourable is the start of the fight. Looking these games where humans pull surprise wins you can often see that they just don't fight for the joy of it but only when they have some backing. Leela especially has aggressive style for which opponent getting carried away by it is pretty easy. And losing those fights is easy as well. But as for Semeai problem I think one would need pre-analysis of situation, in classical program fashion and recognising important semeias and the directing the search with specialized move generators for semeai. I guess the term would be importance sampling. -- Petri Pitkänen e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
