Re: [Computer-go] New paper by DeepMind

[甲斐徳本]

Those are the points not well understood commonly.

A patent application does two things.  1. Apply for an eventual granting of
the patent, 2. Makes what's described in it a public knowledge as of the
date of the filing.
Patent may be functionally meaningless.  There may be no one to sue.  And
these are huge issues for the point No.1.  However, a strategic patent
applicants file patent applications for the point No.2 to deny any
possibility of somebody else obtaining a patent.  (A public knowledge
cannot be patented.)

Many companies are trying to figure out how to patent DCNN based AI, and
Google may be saying "Nope, as long as it is like the DeepMind method, you
can't patent it."   Google is likely NOT saying "We are hoping to obtain
the patent, and intend to enforce it."

Despite many differences in patent law from a country to another, two basic
purposes of patent are universal: 1. To protect the inventor, and 2. To
promote the use of inventions by making the details a public knowledge.




On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 12:47 AM uurtamo  wrote:

> What I'm saying is that the patent is functionally meaningless. Who is
> there to sue?
>
> Moreover, there is no enforceable patent on the broad class of algorithms
> that could reproduce these results. No?
>
> s.
>
> On Fri, Dec 7, 2018, 4:16 AM Jim O'Flaherty  wrote:
>
>> Tysvm for the clarification, Tokumoto.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018, 8:02 PM 甲斐徳本 >
>>> What's insane about it?
>>> To me, what Jim O'Flaherty stated is common sense in the field of
>>> patents, and any patent attorney would attest to that.  If I may add, Jim's
>>> last sentence should read "Google's patent application" instead of
>>> "Google's patent".  The difference is huge, and this may be in the heart of
>>> the issue, which is not well understood by the general public.
>>>
>>> In other words, thousands of patent applications are filed in the world
>>> without any hope of the patent eventually being granted, to establish
>>> "prior art" thereby protecting what's described in it from being patented
>>> by somebody else.
>>>
>>> Or, am I responding to a troll?
>>>
>>> Tokumoto
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:01 AM uurtamo  wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're insane.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018, 4:13 PM Jim O'Flaherty >>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Remember, patents are a STRATEGIC mechanism as well as a legal
>>>>> mechanism. As soon as a patent is publically filed (for example, as
>>>>> utility, and following provisional), the text and claims in the patent
>>>>> immediately become prior art globally as of the original filing date
>>>>> REGARDLESS of whether the patent is eventually approved or rejected. IOW, 
>>>>> a
>>>>> patent filing is a mechanism to ensure no one else can make a similar 
>>>>> claim
>>>>> without risking this filing being used as a possible prior art refutation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know this only because it is a strategy option my company is using
>>>>> in an entirely different unrelated domain. The patent filing is defensive
>>>>> such that someone else cannot make a claim and take our inventions away
>>>>> from us just because the coincidentally hit near our inventions.
>>>>>
>>>>> So considering Google's past and their participation in the OIN, it is
>>>>> very likely Google's patent is ensuring the ground all around this area is
>>>>> sufficiently salted to stop anyone from attempting to exploit nearby 
>>>>> patent
>>>>> claims.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim O'Flaherty
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 5:44 PM Erik van der Werf <
>>>>> erikvanderw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 11:28 PM Rémi Coulom 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, the AlphaZero algorithm is patented:
>>>>>>> https://patentscope2.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2018215665
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So far it just looks like an application (and I don't think it will
>>>>>> be be difficult to oppose, if you care about this)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Erik
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

Re: [Computer-go] New paper by DeepMind

[甲斐徳本]

What's insane about it?
To me, what Jim O'Flaherty stated is common sense in the field of patents,
and any patent attorney would attest to that.  If I may add, Jim's last
sentence should read "Google's patent application" instead of "Google's
patent".  The difference is huge, and this may be in the heart of the
issue, which is not well understood by the general public.

In other words, thousands of patent applications are filed in the world
without any hope of the patent eventually being granted, to establish
"prior art" thereby protecting what's described in it from being patented
by somebody else.

Or, am I responding to a troll?

Tokumoto


On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:01 AM uurtamo  wrote:

> You're insane.
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018, 4:13 PM Jim O'Flaherty  wrote:
>
>> Remember, patents are a STRATEGIC mechanism as well as a legal mechanism.
>> As soon as a patent is publically filed (for example, as utility, and
>> following provisional), the text and claims in the patent immediately
>> become prior art globally as of the original filing date REGARDLESS of
>> whether the patent is eventually approved or rejected. IOW, a patent filing
>> is a mechanism to ensure no one else can make a similar claim without
>> risking this filing being used as a possible prior art refutation.
>>
>> I know this only because it is a strategy option my company is using in
>> an entirely different unrelated domain. The patent filing is defensive such
>> that someone else cannot make a claim and take our inventions away from us
>> just because the coincidentally hit near our inventions.
>>
>> So considering Google's past and their participation in the OIN, it is
>> very likely Google's patent is ensuring the ground all around this area is
>> sufficiently salted to stop anyone from attempting to exploit nearby patent
>> claims.
>>
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Jim O'Flaherty
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 5:44 PM Erik van der Werf <
>> erikvanderw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 11:28 PM Rémi Coulom  wrote:
>>>
 Also, the AlphaZero algorithm is patented:
 https://patentscope2.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2018215665

>>>
>>> So far it just looks like an application (and I don't think it will be
>>> be difficult to oppose, if you care about this)
>>>
>>> Erik
>>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Google used TPUs for AlphaGo

[甲斐徳本]

Body of the Japanese text says "TPU is an ASIC developed for Deep Learning
with 'ten' times better performance per Watt compared to other technologies
such as GPU or FPGA, according to Pichai."

So may be it is easier to consider "10 times over Stratix(1) or
Vertex7/Xilinx(2)" and not 13 times over 'other' lesser hardware?

*1 http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/240715/CNN%20Whitepaper.pdf  (see
Table 1)
*2 http://cadlab.cs.ucla.edu/~cong/slides/fpga2015_chen.pdf

Tokumoto

On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Darren Cook  wrote:

> > http://itpro.nikkeibp.co.jp/atcl/column/15/061500148/051900060/
> > (in Japanese).  The performance/watt is about 13 times better,
> > a photo in the article shows.
>
> Has anyone found out exactly what the "Other" in the photo is? The
> Google blog was also rather vague on this.
>
> (If you didn't click through, the chart just say "Relative TPU
> Performance/Watt", with Other being between 0 and 4, and TPU being
> between 11 and 14.)
>
> Darren
>
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Re: [Computer-go] UEC cup 2nd day

[甲斐徳本]

sgf files have been made available on the 2nd day Finals games:
http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/results_2ndday/final.zip

Tokumoto


On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 11:27 PM, Hideki Kato 
wrote:

> Dear Ingo,
>
> >Hi Hiroshi,
> >
> >thanks for the many updates.
> >
> >On another site I read that the bits on rank 1 and 2 will
> >play exhibition matches against a pro player on Wednesday.
>
> Yes, Koichi Kobayashi 9p .
> #Nick's h-c page: http://www.computer-go.info/h-c/index.html
>
> >Will those games be transmitted on KGS?
>
> I guess it's very difficult because all broadcast rights must
> exclusively be owned by the sponsor, "Igo Shogi Channel."
>
> >Has it been decided alreay which handicap?
>
> Basically 3 stones.  If Kobayashi 9p lost the first game (vs
> Darkforest), the second game (vs Zen) will be played with 2
> stones.  #Not announced yet.
>
> Hideki
>
> >Thanks in advance, Ingo.
> >
> >
> >> Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. März 2016 um 07:41 Uhr
> >> Von: "Hiroshi Yamashita" 
> >> An: computer-go@computer-go.org
> >> Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] UEC cup 2nd day
> >>
> >> Zen won against darkforest
> >>
> >> 1st Zen
> >> 2nd darkforest
> >> 3rd CrazyStone
> >> 4th Aya
> >>
> >> Hiroshi Yamashita
> >>
> >> ___
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> --
> Hideki Kato 
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Re: [Computer-go] UEC cup 2nd day

[甲斐徳本]

This page http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/result2.html
says Kifu on 'some' Finals games will be uploaded soon.

Tokumoto


On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 9:23 PM, David Fotland 
wrote:

> I have sgf’s of the Many Faces’ games, but I finished 8th.  I don’t have
> the top games.
>
>
>
> *From:* Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Pawel Morawiecki
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 20, 2016 1:57 AM
> *To:* computer-go@computer-go.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] UEC cup 2nd day
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
> Final result
> 1st Zen
> 2nd darkforest
> 3rd CrazyStone
> 4th Aya
>
>
>
> Are there any games available? (SGFs)?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Paweł
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: ""Ingo Althöfer"" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de
> >
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] UEC cup 2nd day
>
>
>
> Hi Hiroshi,
>
> thanks for the many updates.
>
> On another site I read that the bits on rank 1 and 2 will
> play exhibition matches against a pro player on Wednesday.
>
> Will those games be transmitted on KGS?
> Has it been decided alreay which handicap?
>
> Thanks in advance, Ingo.
>
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. März 2016 um 07:41 Uhr
> Von: "Hiroshi Yamashita" 
> An: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Betreff: Re: [Computer-go] UEC cup 2nd day
>
> Zen won against darkforest
>
> 1st Zen
> 2nd darkforest
> 3rd CrazyStone
> 4th Aya
>
> Hiroshi Yamashita
>
>
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>
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Re: [Computer-go] Computer Go tactics and matrix completion

[甲斐徳本]

To me (a weak Go player), the priorities on parameter changes from Fuseki,
to when counting score on the board becomes relatively accurate, to Yose /
end-game.  So I've been using different parameters for different stages in
a game for my non-MCTS non-DCNN traditional-logic engine for a long time,
and it is obvious to me that extending this concept to the differences in
play style or strength/weakness of opponents derived from game records
would have benefits.

Old GNUGo had in-game parameter tuning methods already implemented on
Territorial orientation, Attacking orientation, Invasion orientation, etc.
But of course I do realize 'parameter' can be a bit different from my
example to a modern normal bot.  I may think about using Matrix Completion
in the future on CGOS opponents, which might help how my bot will do in the
UEC Cup if it is allowed in the rules.  After all, "whom they are playing
against" is an important information a Pro processes before and during a
game.

Tokumoto


On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 4:19 AM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira 
wrote:

> I haven't read how programs 'catalog' play under various categories, like
> for http://gostyle.j2m.cz/
> but only if the acquisition of some features is easier than others, giving
> an incomplete view of the
> opponents, would a technique like matrix completion be necessary, no?
>
> If from just 2-5 games we can catalog a player sufficiently well, any
> algorithm for parameter tuning
> should suffice for generating a probability distribution of the
> application of different parameter
> vectors. Can it be done with just a few games? Probably. Matches are long.
> Probably even changing
> parameters automatically midgame would also be possible and be more
> powerful for dealing with
> pesky versatile players.
>
> I guess what I'm saying is that to me it is seems overkill for Go (besides
> the whole remembering
> every player in KGS thing).
>
> Gonçalo
>
>
> On 15/01/2016 14:53, "Ingo Althöfer" wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> the topic "matrix completion" has become famous, in
>> particular after a competition organized by the
>> NetFlix company. NetFlix has many customers and (not so)
>> many films. They want to generate personalized
>> recommendations for their customers ("you might also like
>> movie X").
>>
>> Transfer to the world of go on internet servers:
>> One problem of go bots against human go players is that
>> humans learn quickly about special weaknesses of the bot.
>> Now assume some fictive go bot "Bimbo" with several
>> secrete parameter settings (S_1, ..., S_m). When a
>> human plays on KGS against Bimbo he does not know which
>> parameter set is just activated. The team behind Bimbo
>> is switching between parameter sets, either randomly or
>> by some tactics.
>>
>> What the Bimbo team knows is how well which humans handled
>> which sets in the past. What they want to find is the
>> "best" parameter set for the current opponent. Here "best"
>> is meant with respect to the bot chances. Matrix completion
>> may help to find "appropriate" settings.
>>
>> Observe that NetFlix is dealing with thousands of films
>> and millions of customers. In contrast, on KGS you have
>> perhaps a few hundred opponents and about a dozen or so
>> parameter sets. So, "matrix completion" in the Bimbo team
>> would not be a very hard task.
>>
>> Ingo.
>>
>> Wikipedia-Link:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_completion
>>
>> PS. In computer chess, switching secretly between several
>> program versions was sometimes called "engine revolver".
>>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Using gogui to visualize a CNN for move prediction

[甲斐徳本]

gogui-regress is used when you already have a (large) set of tests to run
for the program.  A test is made up with 1. Load a specified sgf file, 2.
go to a specified Move, 3. issue genmove command to the program, 4. tell me
if the program's response is XX or not.

gogui-display is used when you already have gtp command streams and want to
visualize the board.

So what you want is gogui itself when you want it to issue genmove command
in response to your move specified by clicking on the board, and display
the resulting board position.  When
http://gogui.sourceforge.net/doc/reference-gogui.html is not enough for
your specific needs, you could try:
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/gomill

Tokumoto

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Justin .Gilmer  wrote:

> Hello,
>   I've trained a deep CNN for move prediction and would like to visualize
> it using gogui (or a python library if anyone knows of one!). I have gogui
> installed and have a somewhat decent understanding of the go text protocol,
> although this is my first time trying to use it. I'm not looking to have my
> CNN play another program, instead I'd like to iterate through an existing
> sgf file and view the model probablities at each state of the game. So, I'm
> trying to write a python script which can communicate with gogui but I'm
> getting confused with which gogui executable from the list below I should
> be using:
>
> gogui-adapter  gogui-convert  gogui-dummygogui-server
>  gogui-terminal gogui-twogtp
> gogui  gogui-client   gogui-display  gogui-regress  gogui-statistics
>  gogui-thumbnailer
>
> I assume one of these should just wait for the program to give a bunch of
> genmove commands? Seems like gogui-regress is what I want? I see no
> documentation on how to use this on
> http://gogui.sourceforge.net/doc/index.html and the provided help isn't
> very helpful. Hoping someone on this mailing list has used gogui before :).
>
> Am I missing anything? Is there any easier way to visualize my model? Many
> thanks!
> -Justin Gilmer
>
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Re: [Computer-go] NHK News "Bots will be admitted to pro tournaments"

[甲斐徳本]

Yes, as noted in lifein19x19.com, apparently this is an announcement of
yet-unnamed 13x13 tournament open to pros, amateurs and bots to be held in
the Spring, 2016.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/20151223/k10010350821000.html (Japanese)
Nihon Kiin will be holding a 13x13 Go tournament open to professionals,
amateurs and computer programs in the Spring of next year.  Preliminaries
will be held with about 170 participants total.  4 participant slots will
be reserved for computer programs in the amateur preliminaries.  (No
mention of pro preliminaries. Possibly not decided if there will be one.)
 Computer programs will proceed to the main round to face professionals if
they qualify in the top 2.
According to Nihon Kiin, this will be the first time computer programs are
allowed to participate in a professional Go tournament.
(The rest of the article briefly describes the differences in strengths of
Chess, Shogi and Go software.)

There have been no official release on this from Nihon Kiin as of the end
of business day today as far as I could tell.  With the huge participation (
http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/participant.html) in the UEC Cup / Densei
Sen in March, this tournament will boost public awareness on computer Go.

Tokumoto


On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Stefan Kaitschick <
stefan.kaitsch...@hamburg.de> wrote:

> According to a post in this forum it's 13*13.
>
> http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18=12553
>
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[Computer-go] NHK News "Bots will be admitted to pro tournaments"

[甲斐徳本]

NHK (BBC equivalent in Japan) reported in tonight's 7 o'clock news on
national TV channel that "Nihon Kiin will be admitting computer programs to
pro tournaments as participants"

*Details are not known at all.  It is a common practice for Nihon Kiin to
let its sponsors (newspapers, TV / cable channels, etc) scoop valuable news
before making formal announcements.  For example, Antti* Törmänen's 1p
status was reported by Mainichi newspaper a day before Nihon Kiin's
announcement on its website.

*So let's hope some detail will become available tomorrow.*

*Tokumoto*
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[Computer-go] Demis Hassabis (DeepMind) on Go

[甲斐徳本]

DeepMind may be coming to Go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBXdwzcRoqg

-Tokumoto
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Re: [Computer-go] modus operandi

[甲斐徳本]

When and how is this Goggernaut starting?

In order for Petr Baudis' students in Prague and the UEC gang in Tokyo to
be involved, I'd think communications issue needs to be high on the
priorities.

And that is something I am willing to curtail my rose smelling activities
and help. Do any of you Computer Science MSc/PhD candidates have friends in
Social Sciences who might be interested and contribute in coming up with
modus operandi guidelines for the best probability of success in the world
today?  This could be a joint Social Science / Computer Science project.

I wish I knew many Deans and department heads of universities in the world
to discuss this idea.  But I'm just an old dog who plans on participating
in his first CGF Open tomorrow.

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 8:00 AM, djhbrown .  wrote:

> "To have a joint effort there would have to be a strong financial force to
> pull everyone into the same time table, licensing model, and so on".
>
> Money does make the world go around. Anthropologists and sociologists and
> investigative journalists have revealed that throughout the history of
> mankind,  the profit motive of unscrupulous goldfingers has exacerbated the
> scale of conflicts, turning what had evolved within the human genome as
> mate-competition aggression into broadscale rabid genocidal megalomania.
> However, there is another side to the human psyche's motivation apparatus,
> namely that of socialisation.
>
> Rome wasn't built in a day, and although it was, like the pyramids,
> largely built with slave and/or indentured labour, it was built by more
> than one egocentric old man determined to prove to himself that he is
> better than his Dad, or better than he thought his Dad thought he was.
>
> There are examples of non-profit collaborations such as Gnu, Creative
> Commons, and the Open CourseWare initiative.  Although the latter is mainly
> a marketing channel, it also distributes information freely; one of very
> few examples of the trickle-down effect actually happening.
>
> So no, there doesn't have to be a strong financial force, merely a strong
> sociality one, or at least a recognition that many hands make light work
> and a willingness the share the glory.
>
> MCTS seems to be very good at small-scale fighting, whereas CNN might be
> better-suited to fuseki.  I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that 19x19
> is 4 times 9x9, but borders of teacups overlap, so a flitting-around fovea
> is needed rather than a stationary one, and that requires a CEO to tell it
> where to flit.  Or, rather, to tell them where to flit, if there were an
> internetworked army of foveas, each doing his own local reconnaisance and
> reporting back to HQ.
>
> That CEO, like all CEOs, can make the big decisions, but having a head no
> smarter than a toilet-cleaner's or rice-paddy plougher's, it can only do so
> much, so it needs to be supported by a cabinet of consultants, each of whom
> has its own set of information filters and labour force, to offer the CEO a
> small set (7 plus or minus 2) of simple choices.  In the real world, the
> Sir Humphreys always ensure that their Minister makes the choice they want
> him to make, but in the mind of a machine, rational objective globally
> beneficial decisions are theoretically possible.
>
> This message is only for those who haven't lost the idealism of youth, as
> old dogs don't like new tricks and more often than not would would rather
> shoot the messenger than contemplate the message.  It might happen in
> academia, if ITers ever learn to follow the example of their medical
> colleagues, whose lists of authors are usually longer than the substantive
> content of their papers.
>
> How could it happen?  Don't ask me - i'm a Steppenwolf.  Besides, i am far
> too busy with much more important things like smelling roses, so i don't
> have the time.
>
>
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