Re: [Computer-go] How is zen so strong on CGOS?

[Hideki Kato]

Dear Detlef,

Please don't forget the rollout, which is still important.  
Zen's rollout is much better than others' so far.  This 
could be the main reason of your question.

The value network introduced by the Nature paper is not perfect, 
rather represents very rough (coarse) approximation of the value 
function of 19x19 Go.  The number of possible positions is 
10^170 and is greater than 10^30 in practice, I guess.  The 
order of the number of the freedom (and the training samples) of 
the value network is 10^7 which is much much smaller than the 
number of freedom being necessary to represent the value 
function.  So, the value network only approximate rough, smooth, 
low-order part of the function.  Thus, the detal, high-order 
part of the function must be represented by the rollout.

Best,
Hideki

Detlef Schmicker: :
>Hi,

>

>I'd like to start a discussion on what zen might do being so strong on

>CGOS with only one core and no graphic card :)

>

>The version actual playing (and therefore best comparable to the

>programs actual playing) is

>

>Rank   NameElo +   -   Games

>12 Zen-13.5-1c0g   363948  48  569

>16 Aya792p2v2cn50_12t  355846  46  476

>24 Rn.3.3-4c   345934  34  918

>26 No335-4.5-gpu-4c3438115 115 112

>29 CGI1407_1_475_7c339973  73  142

>53 CrazyStone-0002 3239114 114 141

>54 NG-05   323567  67  228

>

>

>

>No335 is probably Hirabot

>NG is oakfoam

>from crazystone I dont know, if this version uses gpu

>Rn is probably ray

>

>All but Zen use gpu and so have probably about 300 policy network calls

>per second.

>

>Zen does this on cpu and I got Hideki to let me know, that this can do

>only about 20 calls per second :)

>

>It might be that zen uses cnn only in the upper nodes and relies on the

>faster node generation zen used before cnn for deeper nodes?

>

>I can not believe, that the policy network is so much stronger than the

>ones of all the others?!

>

>

>Any ideas

>

>

>Detlef

>___

>Computer-go mailing list

>Computer-go@computer-go.org

>http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
-- 
Hideki Kato 
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@computer-go.org
http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] How is zen so strong on CGOS?

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hideki said Zen has used policy network since ver 10.5, and
value network since ver 12.1.
Maybe value network is very effective.

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita


- Original Message - 
From: "Detlef Schmicker" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 11:53 PM
Subject: [Computer-go] How is zen so strong on CGOS?



Hi,

I'd like to start a discussion on what zen might do being so strong on
CGOS with only one core and no graphic card :)

The version actual playing (and therefore best comparable to the
programs actual playing) is

Rank Name Elo + − Games
12 Zen-13.5-1c0g 3639 48 48 569
16 Aya792p2v2cn50_12t 3558 46 46 476
24 Rn.3.3-4c 3459 34 34 918
26 No335-4.5-gpu-4c 3438 115 115 112
29 CGI1407_1_475_7c 3399 73 73 142
53 CrazyStone-0002 3239 114 114 141
54 NG-05 3235 67 67 228



No335 is probably Hirabot
NG is oakfoam
from crazystone I dont know, if this version uses gpu
Rn is probably ray

All but Zen use gpu and so have probably about 300 policy network calls
per second.

Zen does this on cpu and I got Hideki to let me know, that this can do
only about 20 calls per second :)

It might be that zen uses cnn only in the upper nodes and relies on the
faster node generation zen used before cnn for deeper nodes?

I can not believe, that the policy network is so much stronger than the
ones of all the others?!


Any ideas


Detlef
___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@computer-go.org
http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go 


___
Computer-go mailing list
Computer-go@computer-go.org
http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go