Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
I saw a news story or show, can't remember which now, that showed a country, New Zealand, Iceland or someplace like that, who've determined to go totally green when it comes to electric cars. Instead of gas stations they have battery stations. The country requires that the batteries be standardized? I don't remember exactly how it works. But instead of stopping and recharging your battery, you swap out your battery with a fresh one. Much like you'd swap your propane tank for your back yard barbecue. I think this is a great idea. You're only there long enough to swap batteries. Hopefully that only takes as long as it would take you to fill your tank anyway. Probably would create jobs as well. Teenagers running back and forth swapping out batterie Jeff Miles jmile...@charter.net Join my Mafia http://apps.facebook.com/inthemafia/status_invite.php?from=550968726 On Jan 19, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: At 08:36 PM 1/19/2010, Art Clemons wrote: The truth is that we need some method of rapid charging said batteries on the go. Ten minutes charging for let's say 200 minutes of driving would be reasonable presently (not much longer than filling up with gasoline), but we as a nation don't have the electrical distribution for either battery exchange or fast charging, leaving electric cars as something for local commuting. But if the electric car is only good for local computing, it then must be (in most cases) economic as an _additional_ car, not as a replacement for a car currently owned. Liquid fuels aren't going to go away for a long time yet. Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: A lot of work is being done on fuel cells and better batteries. I really think the answers lie in that. Then no need to transport anything you have the power generation pack on board. You still need to transport the fuel you put in your fuel cell. Hydrogen is them most common choice, Alcohols, hydrocarbons seem be reasonable choices. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell At 08:33 AM 1/20/2010, you wrote: Add on the headaches of transporting and storing Hydrogen which tends to leak more since it is smaller. The big problem is where do you get hydrogen? Electrolysis, cracking things like natural gas and some biological reactions- none of which have been scaled up yet. Two of them require significant amounts of energy going into the system. The range is getting better on electric cars but I would stick to a hybrid where It can make more electricity when needed. -- John Duncan Yoyo * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
But if the electric car is only good for local computing, it then must be (in most cases) economic as an _additional_ car, not as a replacement for a car currently owned. Liquid fuels aren't going to go away for a long time yet. Hydrogen cars have approximately the same problem, there isn't the infrastructure to support them, even if they might be practical. The electric car could work. I also note that many families have several cars, with one used mostly for short commutes and things like shopping. The electric car for a multi-car family could make sense if it fits the needs of that family. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 12:32 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:36 PM, Art Clemons wrote: The truth is that we need some method of rapid charging said batteries on the go. Ten minutes charging for let's say 200 minutes of driving would be reasonable presently (not much longer than filling up with gasoline), but we as a nation don't have the electrical distribution for either battery exchange or fast charging, leaving electric cars as something for local commuting. Yes that has been worked out. It was discovered that charging takes so long because the electrons have to cross a porous barrier and most of the time they bounce back because they fail to align with the opening in the barrier. Some guys figured out how to eliminate most of the misses so charging can take just a few minutes. Their new problem is figuring out how to supply so much current is such a short time interval. Coleman, among others, has a rapid charge screw driver that uses a big capacitor in place of a battery. IMS the trick here is having a similar capacitor in the base charging all the time. They trade the charge in something like 90 seconds. The down side is capacitors aren't as stable as batteries. http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/technology_news/4223118.html -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Art Clemons artclem...@aol.com wrote: But if the electric car is only good for local computing, it then must be (in most cases) economic as an _additional_ car, not as a replacement for a car currently owned. Liquid fuels aren't going to go away for a long time yet. Hydrogen cars have approximately the same problem, there isn't the infrastructure to support them, even if they might be practical. The electric car could work. I also note that many families have several cars, with one used mostly for short commutes and things like shopping. The electric car for a multi-car family could make sense if it fits the needs of that family. Add on the headaches of transporting and storing Hydrogen which tends to leak more since it is smaller. The big problem is where do you get hydrogen? Electrolysis, cracking things like natural gas and some biological reactions- none of which have been scaled up yet. Two of them require significant amounts of energy going into the system. The range is getting better on electric cars but I would stick to a hybrid where It can make more electricity when needed. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
I thinK this is a good time for some creative thinking about energy. As we change how we get and manage portable energy many old assumptions will need to be reexamined. If our cars start to run on big battery packs we need to consider how those get charged... The Peugeot 888 by Oskar Johansen in the 2009 Peugeot Design Contest is a small electric car that converts from small and high to larger and low depending on whether it's in the city or suburbs. It has solar panels on the roof to recharge the batteries. Batteries are getting smaller while PV panels are more efficient that they were even a year ago. There can be battery exchange stations for electric cars that are mostly powered by solar cells [both stations and cars]. Home charging stations can also be powered by PV cells. For those not familiar with solar photovoltaic technology, you don't have to live in a sunny location for them to be effective, although efficiency declines in higher latitudes in the winter. During the winter, the energy can be stored in salt ponds until the sun returns. Main problem with generating your own electricity is the power companies. When you need more power, you pay retail to the power company, and you must pay your bill monthly. When you generate excess power, you sell it to the electric company at wholesale, and the power company pays you whenever--could be six months later, because you're not big enough for them to be bothered. Getting paid wholesale price is business, but so is receiving payment on the same schedule as the power company charges you. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
The Peugeot 888 by Oskar Johansen in the 2009 Peugeot Design Contest is a small electric car that converts from small and high to larger and low depending on whether it's in the city or suburbs. It has solar panels on the roof to recharge the batteries. Batteries are getting smaller while PV panels are more efficient that they were even a year ago. Unfortunately, solar panels on the roof are not anywhere near efficient enough to provide electricity sufficient to charge cars on a reasonable schedule. When you add in for example having to park your car in a garage, rain, snow and the like, all solar panels can do is supplement battery charging. Of course if you for example drive to an outdoor parking lot and leave on a 2 week trip, my claims go out the window, but for daily driving, some other source is likely needed. I also note that it's not size that's the problem, it's reliable capacity and ease of charging. A battery the size of let's say a stacked washer-dryer would be quite useful for many households as long as the battery doesn't need special protection from heat, cold or a location to vent gases while being rapidly charged. It would be more problematic for a car to have batteries that size. There can be battery exchange stations for electric cars that are mostly powered by solar cells [both stations and cars]. Home charging stations can also be powered by PV cells. For those not familiar with solar photovoltaic technology, you don't have to live in a sunny location for them to be effective, although efficiency declines in higher latitudes in the winter. During the winter, the energy can be stored in salt ponds until the sun returns. Considering the damage I've seen people do trying to exchange Lithium Ion batteries in portable computers, I'm not sure the general public is ready for battery exchange, and while having trained individuals do the exchange might normally work, it would raise the cost of dealing with large capacity batteries. The truth is that we need some method of rapid charging said batteries on the go. Ten minutes charging for let's say 200 minutes of driving would be reasonable presently (not much longer than filling up with gasoline), but we as a nation don't have the electrical distribution for either battery exchange or fast charging, leaving electric cars as something for local commuting. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
At 08:36 PM 1/19/2010, Art Clemons wrote: The truth is that we need some method of rapid charging said batteries on the go. Ten minutes charging for let's say 200 minutes of driving would be reasonable presently (not much longer than filling up with gasoline), but we as a nation don't have the electrical distribution for either battery exchange or fast charging, leaving electric cars as something for local commuting. But if the electric car is only good for local computing, it then must be (in most cases) economic as an _additional_ car, not as a replacement for a car currently owned. Liquid fuels aren't going to go away for a long time yet. Fred Holmes * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
We have many problems that re not going to go away right away. Part of the reasons is that we have built infrastructures that are quite costly, and took time to develop. Most of the off the grid power generation methods developed up to today are stand alone. 20+ years ago one of my members bought a brand new car and had it changed over to NG. 20+ years ago. Problem is where are they going to refill their car on trips? Schwans frozen foods delivery trucks run on propane. Except for filling up at the shop where else are they going to fill up? In order to have a system of transportation running off of alternate fuel sources, you need to develop the infrastucture to support it. Stewart At 09:12 PM 1/19/2010, you wrote: At 08:36 PM 1/19/2010, Art Clemons wrote: The truth is that we need some method of rapid charging said batteries on the go. Ten minutes charging for let's say 200 minutes of driving would be reasonable presently (not much longer than filling up with gasoline), but we as a nation don't have the electrical distribution for either battery exchange or fast charging, leaving electric cars as something for local commuting. But if the electric car is only good for local computing, it then must be (in most cases) economic as an _additional_ car, not as a replacement for a car currently owned. Liquid fuels aren't going to go away for a long time yet. Fred Holmes Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:36 PM, Art Clemons wrote: The truth is that we need some method of rapid charging said batteries on the go. Ten minutes charging for let's say 200 minutes of driving would be reasonable presently (not much longer than filling up with gasoline), but we as a nation don't have the electrical distribution for either battery exchange or fast charging, leaving electric cars as something for local commuting. Yes that has been worked out. It was discovered that charging takes so long because the electrons have to cross a porous barrier and most of the time they bounce back because they fail to align with the opening in the barrier. Some guys figured out how to eliminate most of the misses so charging can take just a few minutes. Their new problem is figuring out how to supply so much current is such a short time interval. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
Yet another example of really bad reporting. The only reference it gives is a click through to a Gizmodo story that actually words it MUCH differently. Instead of telling us Panasonic is launching this battery, Gizmodo tells us they are only now launching a joint venture aimed at *developing* a powerful lithium-ion storage battery. The one picture supplied has no size reference in it. The screws make it look smaller than a car battery. But it's hard to believe that thing could run MY refrigerator for a week. And let's not even try to add in the heat pump and space heaters and air conditioner. On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 2:12 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Panasonic’s new home battery could store a week’s-worth of electricity http://green.venturebeat.com/2009/12/24/panasonics-new-home-battery-could-store-a-weeks-worth-of-electricity/ This is significant for two reasons. First, if home batteries like this one become commonplace, renewable sources of energy like rooftop solar and residential turbines could finally take off. The biggest roadblock to their adoption is that they are intermittent; reliable storage is needed to make them effective. Second, if affordable storage is achieved on the home-level, there might be less need for grid-scale storage, which is pricier and harder to accomplish. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
Tony B: Yet another example of really bad reporting. The only reference it gives is a click through to a Gizmodo story that actually words it MUCH differently. Instead of telling us Panasonic is launching this battery, Gizmodo tells us they are only now launching a joint venture aimed at *developing* a powerful lithium-ion storage battery. Actually the Gizmodo article references an article on Physorg. The battery is supposed to supply an average Japanese house. I also note that Panasonic plans to market the battery in 2011, which of course means that it has to be slightly more than vaporware. http://www.physorg.com/news180778009.html * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
On Jan 16, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Art Clemons wrote: Actually the Gizmodo article references an article on Physorg. The battery is supposed to supply an average Japanese house. So I extrapolate that it will run an average US house for about 6 hours. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
I dunno. Again, we're talking a question of size, and none of these articles can begin to guess. One article used the word massive, but that's probably a guess. Certainly if it's as big as a lithium car battery, you would need a lift to move it around. Actually the Gizmodo article references an article on Physorg. The battery is supposed to supply an average Japanese house. So I extrapolate that it will run an average US house for about 6 hours. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
Battery alone will never work. Just tonight I went outside to take my son to work, and my garden lights were not working. It has been overcast all day long and raining so they did not get a charge. Now I know that the solar panels on them are small and not high quality but extrapolate that out and you see that they need almost daily charging to be totally reliable. Also I am waiting to see how the car batteries last. The older hybrids (Toyota and Honda) should be about reaching their 10 year mark shortly and the cars will need to change out battery packs. I wonder how much that will cost. Stewart At 08:18 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote: I dunno. Again, we're talking a question of size, and none of these articles can begin to guess. One article used the word massive, but that's probably a guess. Certainly if it's as big as a lithium car battery, you would need a lift to move it around. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
Ah, but this depends on location. If you lived say, in the southwest desert around Las Vegas you probably wouldn't complain. On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: Battery alone will never work. Just tonight I went outside to take my son to work, and my garden lights were not working. It has been overcast all day long and raining so they did not get a charge. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
True but how many folks (percentage of the population) live in a naturally sunny place? The problem with any one size fits all technology is that it fits some well, and either looks like high water pants and a crop top on others. Multiple ideas need to be developed and used. Stewart At 08:46 PM 1/16/2010, you wrote: Ah, but this depends on location. If you lived say, in the southwest desert around Las Vegas you probably wouldn't complain. On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote: Battery alone will never work. Just tonight I went outside to take my son to work, and my garden lights were not working. It has been overcast all day long and raining so they did not get a charge. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
So I extrapolate that it will run an average US house for about 6 hours. I'm not sure about real time frames. Japan is fourth on the list of energy usage per individual. From what I can figure, that would allow the typical US household slightly more than six days. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Better than a UPS
Battery alone will never work. Just tonight I went outside to take my son to work, and my garden lights were not working. It has been overcast all day long and raining so they did not get a charge. Now I know that the solar panels on them are small and not high quality but extrapolate that out and you see that they need almost daily charging to be totally reliable. Garden lights have cheap, usually poorly made, solar cells. If you bought them more than a year or two ago, they have NiCad batteries--cheap ones that are less than 500 milliamps, and low quality. The NiMH batteries in the new ones are cheaper and low quality. If you change the batteries in your garden lights to Duracell/Eveready/Rayovac 2000+ mA your lights will charge better and last longer, even on cloudy days [but the batteries might cost more than the lights. Lithium batteries for heavy use are entirely different from NiCad and NiMH anyway--no comparison. Aside from cell phones and other electronics, they're used in cars and for storing power generated by solar PV shingled roofs. We've been following the development of PV power and storage for over 20 years, but only recently has it become more affordable, thanks in part to the investment by the German government that encourages homeowners to install the solar shingles. Similar projects are in progress in Japan. In the US? For now, open your wallet and pay for it, unless you live in a state that can afford the tax credit. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Better than a UPS
Panasonic’s new home battery could store a week’s-worth of electricity http://green.venturebeat.com/2009/12/24/panasonics-new-home-battery-could-store-a-weeks-worth-of-electricity/ This is significant for two reasons. First, if home batteries like this one become commonplace, renewable sources of energy like rooftop solar and residential turbines could finally take off. The biggest roadblock to their adoption is that they are intermittent; reliable storage is needed to make them effective. Second, if affordable storage is achieved on the home-level, there might be less need for grid-scale storage, which is pricier and harder to accomplish. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
