Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political
Thank you Tom. Just knowing that I will always have you to prove me correct beyond any shadow of doubt is enough for me. Maybe I'm just making it too easy for you. > -Original Message- > As you see from the snippet below, you just can't engage Jeff in any > serious discussion. "Evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy" > indeed. And so very sad. He is a smart guy, but isn't willing to work > with it. > > >No, no Rev, you've got it all wrong. > >Your side is brilliant, honest, forthright, righteous, of the highest > ethics > >and above reproach. > >The other side is evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy and > always > >up to something no good. * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political
>(by the way Tom, you're posting in the future again.) So you had better believe -- I have seen the future! * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political
Put another way: If we can't define and rely on an accurate perception of the real, fact based world, how can we hope to accurately perceive the future. If we can't see where we are now, how can we see where we're going. (by the way Tom, you're posting in the future again.) Tom Piwowar wrote: A few nights ago PBS ran a great program on Watergate 30 Years After. They interviewed many of the primary players looking at events from the perspective that 30 years provides. One of the interesting points was that those involved in the Nixon crimes were people of high personal virtue -- they didn't smoke, didn't drink, didn't chase the opposite sex, etc. But they had no morals when it came to the public sphere. There seemed to be no limits to what they would do to win a political battle. One reporter noted how those in the administration would just lie and lie and lie with absolutely no compunction. If caught in a lie they would just lie some more. They bribed, they bullied, they falesly prosecuted, they blackmailed, they burgled, they ruined people's lives. Watching the show I sadly noted that those were the good old days. It is worse today. As you see from the snippet below, you just can't engage Jeff in any serious discussion. "Evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy" indeed. And so very sad. He is a smart guy, but isn't willing to work with it. No, no Rev, you've got it all wrong. Your side is brilliant, honest, forthright, righteous, of the highest ethics and above reproach. The other side is evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy and always up to something no good. This discussion is not really "off topic." This is an attempt to examine a decisionmaking process that is central to any discussion of how we use technology. It is key to thinking about DMCA, net neutrality, defective software security, false market statistics, etc. If we can't honestly examine the data, we can't honestly come to valid conclusions, and we can't effectively plot a future course. * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political
A few nights ago PBS ran a great program on Watergate 30 Years After. They interviewed many of the primary players looking at events from the perspective that 30 years provides. One of the interesting points was that those involved in the Nixon crimes were people of high personal virtue -- they didn't smoke, didn't drink, didn't chase the opposite sex, etc. But they had no morals when it came to the public sphere. There seemed to be no limits to what they would do to win a political battle. One reporter noted how those in the administration would just lie and lie and lie with absolutely no compunction. If caught in a lie they would just lie some more. They bribed, they bullied, they falesly prosecuted, they blackmailed, they burgled, they ruined people's lives. Watching the show I sadly noted that those were the good old days. It is worse today. As you see from the snippet below, you just can't engage Jeff in any serious discussion. "Evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy" indeed. And so very sad. He is a smart guy, but isn't willing to work with it. >No, no Rev, you've got it all wrong. >Your side is brilliant, honest, forthright, righteous, of the highest ethics >and above reproach. >The other side is evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy and always >up to something no good. This discussion is not really "off topic." This is an attempt to examine a decisionmaking process that is central to any discussion of how we use technology. It is key to thinking about DMCA, net neutrality, defective software security, false market statistics, etc. If we can't honestly examine the data, we can't honestly come to valid conclusions, and we can't effectively plot a future course. * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political
Unfortunately, I think the "common ground" you speak of is, at root, the absence of critical thinking, related to - an at best - ambivalence about the value of truth. The real "inconvenient truth" is that truth itself is very often inconvenient. We worship many other considerations above the truth or trying to understand things through reason, yet we are generally not even honest about this. When we do not value apprehending reality (as best as possible, better than our current or given understanding) as a bedrock, fundamental governing value or principle (of individuals, societies, nations) then we are too easily satisfied with the "given" - with the way things are, what we hear or see or are told, with explanations, with things at face value. When we are satisfied, for whatever reason, we aren't skeptical and we don't ask questions. When we don't ask questions, we are not thinking critically. When we don't think critically, we are not using reason and we also are easily manipulated and fooled by language. When others deliberately use language to obfuscate reality or for some other purpose than elucidating reality, this is rhetoric. We also readily deceive ourselves with language, including the "language" of mathematics, such as with statistics. All of us fall prey to this to some extent, some of the time. Even the most brilliant scientists, who may engage in critical thinking as a high art in the narrow questions they pursue do not necessarily think critically in general, across all domains, issues, important societal problems, discourse, etc. My best guess is that the vast majority of people, certainly in this country, only engage in regular critical thinking in limited, sporadic ways, such as in their job or certain areas of interest or when critiquing some "other" (group, party, person, position, etc.) or in certain circumstances or with certain people. When it comes to public discourse on public policy and important social or political issues, real critical thinking, on both or all sides, is rare, though few would probably agree that this is true for "their side." That failure to engage in self-critical examination is itself a failure of critical thinking. Anyway, better stop, as computer keeps freezing and better get outside while the sun is still out on this beautiful day. Or before I get tarred and feathered here! Randall - Original Message - From: "Stewart A. Marshall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political > That is usually how it is viewed. > > My church body has had a right left battle going for about 50 years or more. > > Having seen some stuff from the right and from the left, I can assure > you they are mirror images. > > If they would spend some time listening to each other (which they > usually don't) and trying to walk a mile in their shoes they might > come down from their holy mountains and find some common ground. > > Usually that is not to be and the common ground is left standing vacant. > > Those of us who stand in the middle are very numerous, just very > quiet. (at least quieter than the extremes.) > > Stewart > > > At 12:29 AM 4/29/2007, you wrote: >>No, no Rev, you've got it all wrong. >> >>Your side is brilliant, honest, forthright, righteous, of the highest ethics >>and above reproach. >> >>The other side is evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy and always >>up to something no good. >> >>And, above all, you are never a partisan, just the other guy. >> >>Most importantly though, if you don't believe in the same thing, you're the >>other guy from the other side. >> >> > -Original Message- >> > It goes both ways both left and right. >> > >> > The Radical Right is just as bad as the radical left. They are >> > really mirror images of each other. >> > >> > Stewart > > Rev. Stewart A. Marshall > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org > Ozark, AL SL 82 > > > > * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== > * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== > * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name > * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST > * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L > * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress > * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > **
Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political
Jeff, I actually liked this post. Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No, no Rev, you've got it all wrong. Your side is brilliant, honest, forthright, righteous, of the highest ethics and above reproach. The other side is evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy and always up to something no good. And, above all, you are never a partisan, just the other guy. Most importantly though, if you don't believe in the same thing, you're the other guy from the other side. > -Original Message- > It goes both ways both left and right. > > The Radical Right is just as bad as the radical left. They are > really mirror images of each other. > > Stewart * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived
[CGUYS] Off topic-Political
I gave some insights based on sociological studies, researched and confirmed facts, and scientific polls, and you offer platitudes, talking points, and untruths. In the passed 12 years, the political middle has been pushed further and further to the right. I live in a part of PA considered to be the Alabama of PA. I know what these people think, they are happy to talk about it, and what they use to shape their reality. Rush Limbaugh is involved. And they don't just think he's funny. They believe what he says, though some won't admit it. In order to maintain a degree of relative metal health, we all seek to find a reality we can live in. Others are belligerently ignorant, in an effort to hide fear. There has been considerable study of this behavior. If you are curious, check out this book, which can be read online: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ I'm just touching on some of what can be learned about what is happening to our society and why. This is scary stuff, but it's important. I suspect that a lot of people don't have the time or inclination to find out if what they hear is true. It is to your credit that you do try. Many people who watch Fox do not know that they are right leaning, sometimes radically so. These people are not stupid. They just don't know any better, for a host of different reasons. Knowing what our country has become, such ignorance is almost unforgivable. At this point polls are showing that most people who choose to watch Fox are right wing ideologues. In the last few years, even NPR has been penetrated by the right. Several of the media I mentioned previously are not out to make money. They are subsidized by radical right wing millionaires. They are part of the Republican noise machine. If you are curious, check out http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2004/09/09_400.html * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political
At 12:40 AM -0500 4/29/07, Stewart A. Marshall wrote: ... Usually that is not to be and the common ground is left standing vacant. Those of us who stand in the middle are very numerous, just very quiet. (at least quieter than the extremes.) Amen! -- Roger Lovettsville, VA * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political
That is usually how it is viewed. My church body has had a right left battle going for about 50 years or more. Having seen some stuff from the right and from the left, I can assure you they are mirror images. If they would spend some time listening to each other (which they usually don't) and trying to walk a mile in their shoes they might come down from their holy mountains and find some common ground. Usually that is not to be and the common ground is left standing vacant. Those of us who stand in the middle are very numerous, just very quiet. (at least quieter than the extremes.) Stewart At 12:29 AM 4/29/2007, you wrote: No, no Rev, you've got it all wrong. Your side is brilliant, honest, forthright, righteous, of the highest ethics and above reproach. The other side is evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy and always up to something no good. And, above all, you are never a partisan, just the other guy. Most importantly though, if you don't believe in the same thing, you're the other guy from the other side. > -Original Message- > It goes both ways both left and right. > > The Radical Right is just as bad as the radical left. They are > really mirror images of each other. > > Stewart Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Off topic-political
No, no Rev, you've got it all wrong. Your side is brilliant, honest, forthright, righteous, of the highest ethics and above reproach. The other side is evil, stupid and/or ignorant, dishonest, sleazy and always up to something no good. And, above all, you are never a partisan, just the other guy. Most importantly though, if you don't believe in the same thing, you're the other guy from the other side. > -Original Message- > It goes both ways both left and right. > > The Radical Right is just as bad as the radical left. They are > really mirror images of each other. > > Stewart * ==> QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in <== * ==> the body of an email & send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <== * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header "X-No-Archive: yes" will not be archived
